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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , DNA testing , Elizabeth Warren , lying charges , racial categorization

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Old 13th March 2018, 12:59 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Well, this not-at-all-a-distraction seems perfectly relevant.
Did we interrupt your Stormy Daniels research project?
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:02 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I would find it very unlikely that Ancestry.com, which has largely US based data, would not have quite a bit of Native American genetic identifiers.
Doesn't that depend on the research already been done? Are there any such databases?

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Old 13th March 2018, 01:10 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Doesn't that depend on the research already been done? Are there any such databases?

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You may find this article interesting:

https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/...Email+Programs
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:27 PM   #84
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:30 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Did we interrupt your Stormy Daniels research project?
I have a Stormy Daniels research project?
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:41 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
If only that were so.
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:58 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
For whatever its worth, my point is that only partisans care and only for partisan reasons. This is one of many such "scandals"

Binder's full of Women, Guns and Bibles, 49% percent of voters, basket of deplorables, dogs on vacation, lipstick on a pig, ..........
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:28 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I would find it very unlikely that Ancestry.com, which has largely US based data, would not have quite a bit of Native American genetic identifiers.
You missed what I said. They may have lots of Native Americans who have given them DNA. What they don't have (or didn't because they may be shifting) are researchers.

Their data base of alleles and markers came from other sources. Researchers have only recently begun studying the genetic pathway of Native American migration and relationships. So the genome data is not in Ancestry or 23 and Me's data bases yet.
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:30 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
In my case, my immigrant German great-grandparents spoke German and were originally German citizens. However, my DNA showed Scandinavian rather than German ancestry because they were from Schleswig-Holstein, an area of Germany that had been Danish until 1864 and they were actually of Danish descent. If your ancestors were from Schleswig-Holstein, this could explain your brother's results.
Or not. He was supposedly 95% Western European, no Scandinavian.
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:31 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You may find this article interesting:

https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/...Email+Programs
Nothing new in that and they don't address their data base.
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:41 PM   #91
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If she wanted to, she could quite easily, on the quiet, do one of those Ancestry.com DNA tests (or one of the many other publicly available DNA tests. She could get a trusted friend to submit it under their own name. No-one would ever know, and it would give her a heads up on whether her anecdotal story about her heritage is truth or fantasy before she decided how to proceed.

Maybe she's already done it.
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Old 13th March 2018, 05:58 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
This is a case where a difference in scale is a difference in kind. The calling out Warren on a silly likely falsehood that would normally get ignored if it were a guy on their side, that's just typical politics.
Maybe but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about the bias.
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Old 13th March 2018, 06:02 PM   #93
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"Elizabeth Warren Claims to Have Never Beaten Her DNA Test"
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Old 13th March 2018, 06:27 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
It's probably off topic, but actually they can't tell you what part of Europe our ancestors came from. If you submit samples to different companies, you get different results, and if you submit three samples to the same company year after year, you can get different results every year. The science isn't ready yet.

I'm starting to consider them a category of healthfraud, IMO. Depends on the claim: if it's just for entertainment value, then no fraud. If it's medical diagnosis, then fraud. And the grey area is ancestry analysis: I would say it's fraud if the company claims it's scientifically valid analysis. At this point, we don't have enough information to give reliable geographic/ethnic ancestry breakdowns.

I think sciency people like skeptics have a blindspot for these because they're so techy.

gizmodo article: [How DNA Testing Botched My Family's Heritage, and Probably Yours]
Thanks for that informative link.
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Old 13th March 2018, 06:40 PM   #95
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Why the need for a DNA test? Good Republicans can tell if someone has native american ancestry just by looking at them!

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Old 13th March 2018, 06:42 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I have a Stormy Daniels research project?
Precisely what you'd expect a Stormy Daniels "researcher" to say.
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Old 13th March 2018, 06:44 PM   #97
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All this sounds remarkably petty. It's not like Elizabeth Warren is going to be the only person in the USA who has some long-distant Native American ancestry...or not.

I myself have a proven descent from Pocahontas, daughter of Powhatan. This is no joke, and it's not via DNA research either. We have the fully researched family tree confirmed, going back about 10 generations.

The point is that I am very likely one of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of similar descendants world-wide who can make the same claim. I harbour no hope that I can reclaim any of Virginia territory as my ancestral land either, nor even just get a green card for employment in the USA, on the strength of this.

Similarly, Warren has not used this to her advantage, as far as we know. She has simply mentioned it. The only person trying to make hay out of this is Donny with his puerile insults. Because it plays well with his racist base.
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Old 13th March 2018, 06:50 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Precisely what you'd expect a Stormy Daniels "researcher" to say.
Well, ya got me there.
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Old 13th March 2018, 07:01 PM   #99
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I really, really don't buy this claiming 'x single digit percentage part of me' ancestry.

Unless you have a very recent ancestor (parent or grandparent) I just cannot take this seriously.
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Old 13th March 2018, 07:27 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I really, really don't buy this claiming 'x single digit percentage part of me' ancestry.

Unless you have a very recent ancestor (parent or grandparent) I just cannot take this seriously.
I am 1/1605844th part Bedrockian, being a direct descendant of Fred Flintstone. And I have a quipping pterodactyl DNA testing machine or something to prove it.
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Old 13th March 2018, 07:34 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
....
The point is that I am very likely one of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of similar descendants world-wide who can make the same claim. I harbour no hope that I can reclaim any of Virginia territory as my ancestral land either, nor even just get a green card for employment in the USA, on the strength of this.
.....
I dunno about millions, but the fact is that every person had two biological parents. Each of them had two, and so on. By the fifth generation back -- only about 100 years -- we are equally descended from 64 people. By the 10th generation back, we are equally descended from 2048 people. At 11th, it becomes 4096; by the 15th -- George Washington's era -- it becomes over 65,000. Everybody who is a direct descendant of GW is equally a descendant of 65,000 other people. Pocahontas is probably around the 20th generation, which gets into the hundreds of thousands. At some point far enough back, everybody is related to everybody.

So if E. Warren's grandparents told her that there's some Native American in her background, and her family's been here more than a couple generations, they were probably right, even if Warren can't prove it -- and she shouldn't have to.
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:01 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I dunno about millions, but the fact is that every person had two biological parents. Each of them had two, and so on. By the fifth generation back -- only about 100 years -- we are equally descended from 64 people. By the 10th generation back, we are equally descended from 2048 people. At 11th, it becomes 4096; by the 15th -- George Washington's era -- it becomes over 65,000. Everybody who is a direct descendant of GW is equally a descendant of 65,000 other people. Pocahontas is probably around the 20th generation, which gets into the hundreds of thousands. At some point far enough back, everybody is related to everybody.
Going back into your ancestry, at some point you'll encounter pedigree collapse: the fact that the same ancestor turns up in multiple places in the ancestors tree.

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So if E. Warren's grandparents told her that there's some Native American in her background, and her family's been here more than a couple generations, they were probably right, even if Warren can't prove it -- and she shouldn't have to.
Her claim is that her Native American heritage occurred in her grandparents, or her great-grandparents, I forgot which, but in any case, not so long ago.

I agree with you she doesn't have to prove it; she never used it to get special perks out of it.
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:01 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I am 1/1605844th part Bedrockian, being a direct descendant of Fred Flintstone. And I have a quipping pterodactyl DNA testing machine or something to prove it.
Let me know when an Ivy League school lists you as their only Bedrockian professor. And then it turns out that you have no *********** clue if you're really Bedrockian or not, but that doesn't stop you or the university from scoring some diversity points meanwhile.

And of course actual documented Bedrockians are still waiting for you to act on your supposed heritage.
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:13 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Her claim is that her Native American heritage occurred in her grandparents, or her great-grandparents, I forgot which, but in any case, not so long ago.

I agree with you she doesn't have to prove it; she never used it to get special perks out of it.
Apparently her original claim based on family lore was that she was 1/32 Cherokee. That would go back to great-great-grandparents, and wouldn't be enough to officially join any tribe.

Interesting take in the Atlantic from her Senate campaign. It sounds like everybody in Oklahoma thinks they're descended from Native Americans, which would explain why she believed what her grandparents told her, even if it's not true.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...r-what/257415/
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:26 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Going back into your ancestry, at some point you'll encounter pedigree collapse: the fact that the same ancestor turns up in multiple places in the ancestors tree.
.....
Interesting couple sentences from your link:
Quote:
Small, isolated populations such as those of remote islands represent extreme examples of pedigree collapse, but the common historical tendency to marry those within walking distance, due to the relative immobility of the population before modern transport, meant that most marriage partners were at least distantly related. Even in America around the 19th century, the tendency of immigrants to marry among their ethnic, language or cultural group produced many cousin marriages.

If one considers as a function of time t the number of a given individual's ancestors who were alive at time t, it is likely that for most individuals this function has a maximum at around 1200 AD. Some geneticists[which?] believe that everyone on Earth is at most 50th cousin to everyone else.[5]
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:31 PM   #106
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“Some geneticists[which?] believe that everyone on Earth is at most 50th cousin to everyone else.”

I’m related to Trump, then? Shoot me.
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:21 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I dunno about millions, but the fact is that every person had two biological parents. Each of them had two, and so on. By the fifth generation back -- only about 100 years -- we are equally descended from 64 people. By the 10th generation back, we are equally descended from 2048 people. At 11th, it becomes 4096; by the 15th -- George Washington's era -- it becomes over 65,000. Everybody who is a direct descendant of GW is equally a descendant of 65,000 other people. Pocahontas is probably around the 20th generation, which gets into the hundreds of thousands. At some point far enough back, everybody is related to everybody.

So if E. Warren's grandparents told her that there's some Native American in her background, and her family's been here more than a couple generations, they were probably right, even if Warren can't prove it -- and she shouldn't have to.
Ten generations to me.

And you done your math wrong. Pocahontas had two children IIRC. They each had a number of children of their own. And so on. And there was no "one child" policy for much of that time - one generation had 13 children! So her descendants down to my generation number many more than my direct antecedents back to her (which would actually be 10 pairs, or 20 people).
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:41 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Ten generations to me.

And you done your math wrong. Pocahontas had two children IIRC. They each had a number of children of their own. And so on. And there was no "one child" policy for much of that time - one generation had 13 children! So her descendants down to my generation number many more than my direct antecedents back to her (which would actually be 10 pairs, or 20 people).

I was counting from the present backwards 2 x 2. Somebody who says "I'm a direct descendant of George Washington" is equally descended from many thousands of less illustrious people who were alive at that time. If you are descended from Pocahontas, she was just one of thousands of people who contributed equally to your heritage. You could pick any one of them and trace your ancestry to the present from them. But obviously, if you start with any one historical person, every child and grandchild etc., would be equally descended from the founder.

And Pocahontas lived from 1596 to 1617. 400+ years is way more than 10 generations by most counts. A generation is usually considered around 20-something years. You've got more cousins than you thought.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocahontas

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Old 13th March 2018, 11:03 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I was counting from the present backwards 2 x 2. Somebody who says "I'm a direct descendant of George Washington" is equally descended from many thousands of less illustrious people who were alive at that time. If you are descended from Pocahontas, she was just one of thousands of people who contributed equally to your heritage. You could pick any one of them and trace your ancestry to the present from them. But obviously, if you start with any one historical person, every child and grandchild etc., would be equally descended from the founder.

And Pocahontas lived from 1596 to 1617. 400+ years is way more than 10 generations by most counts. A generation is usually considered around 20-something years. You've got more cousins than you thought.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocahontas
A generation is usually considered 30 years (the next generation is born between 20 and 40 years of age of the previous). I'm over 60, and I know from research I am 10th generation from Pocahontas. I have their names.

Think about your parents - how many did you have? I had two. Let's say my line to Pocahontas was on my mother's side. How many parents did she have? Still two. And following the line, her mother? Two again. You have two parents per generation if you count backwards from yourself to a specific ancestor. So for 10 generations that will be 20 parents/grandparents/great-grandparents, etc. in total.

Counting forwards from Pocahontas and thus numbering her descendants is not the same thing. And yes indeed I expect I have hundreds of thousands of cousins 10 times removed (or whatever it is) around the world.

ETA: Ah, I can see where you made a slight error. Your calculation was actually the answer to the question "How many people had to meet and mate to make you?" And the answer is as you describe - powers of 2.
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Old 13th March 2018, 11:11 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Her claims of Native American ancestry have not been refuted, they just haven't been proven. All she has to go on are stories that were passed down from her family. With Native Americans actively trying to avoid registering in the past, and the obvious problems of tracking down information from over a hundred years ago, the best anyone looking at the genealogical records have been able to say is they can neither confirm nor deny it.

As far as a DNA test goes, well, there are only 23 base pairs of DNA in your average human, and only a 50/50 chance of passing on any one particular gene to a child. After six or seven generations, odds are against any particular descendant having any DNA from any particular ancestor.

In short, it is entirely possible that she is telling the factual truth about her ancestry, and that she will never be able to prove it.
You are aware that Warren's claim does not go back six or seven generations?

Quote:
ďMy motherís family was part Native American,Ē she said. ďAnd my daddyís parents were bitterly opposed to their relationship. So, in 1932, when Mother was 19 and Daddy had just turned 20, they eloped.Ē
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Old 13th March 2018, 11:22 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
A generation is usually considered 30 years (the next generation is born between 20 and 40 years of age of the previous). I'm over 60, and I know from research I am 10th generation from Pocahontas. I have their names.

Think about your parents - how many did you have? I had two. Let's say my line to Pocahontas was on my mother's side. How many parents did she have? Still two. And following the line, her mother? Two again. You have two parents per generation if you count backwards from yourself to a specific ancestor. So for 10 generations that will be 20 parents/grandparents/great-grandparents, etc. in total.

Counting forwards from Pocahontas and thus numbering her descendants is not the same thing. And yes indeed I expect I have hundreds of thousands of cousins 10 times removed (or whatever it is) around the world.

ETA: Ah, I can see where you made a slight error. Your calculation was actually the answer to the question "How many people had to meet and mate to make you?" And the answer is as you describe - powers of 2.
You're doing the math wrong based on what Bob is saying, you might have 2 parents and your mother might also have two parents, but your father had 2 parents as well, so that is 4 grandparents. At the 10th generation it's not 10 x 2 (20) people, but 2^10 people which is 1,024 ancestors in total. So your specific ancestor that you are interested in is just 1 in 1,024 at that level (assuming that none of the branches are interwoven which is slim to unlikely.) You are just looking at the one branch, Bob isn't.
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Old 13th March 2018, 11:23 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
I was with this until I saw that all the Murdoch press, Fox and the Sinclair network stations are actually all over this story.

Nobody who's sane cares. The right wing froth-o-sphere cares.

Lemme anecdotify this for ya. I grew up Jewish; not so much religiously but culturally. Sorta yer secular Jew. I was in an actual temple about five times and always someone else's temple - my friend Billy Mervis or classmate Scott Zelden or Mike Rosenstein... But my mom considered herself a non-practicing Jew. And everyone in the community knew a number of such people. Temple, for those of you who aren't aware, is not really a "I think I'll try out that place in Greenpoint this week" sort of worship. It's a community thing and you "belong to" a temple. And many Jews simply do not.

Well, that was us. And because my mom was single, our Jewish friends would have me or my siblings over for seder or first night of Chanukah. So I was steeped in the traditions and particularly the community and culture. Besides, if your mom's a Jew... you're a Jew, so I self-identified as one, what with at least 25-30 years of that association.

Only it turns out I'm not a Jew. I found out in my 30s that my mom was making it up. For whatever reason, she created a Jewish background for herself and us. Her family were Cincinnati bible thumpers. Why did it take so long to find out? Because I didn't care. I wasn't running for Mayor of the Hassidim. I could've been genetically Black or Jewish or Cherokee; it was just part of me and it didn't require verification.

Why would anyone care? If you're brought up believing a story is part of your culture/history, and you repeat it, I think it makes you kinda "normal". I know pale white men who are so ghetto that if you just heard their voices you'd swear you were talking to a black dude. You are pretty much the life you lead and silly dinner-table-legends (as opposed to urban legends) are as big a part of us as anything else.
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Old 13th March 2018, 11:44 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I was with this until I saw that all the Murdoch press, Fox and the Sinclair network stations are actually all over this story.

Nobody who's sane cares. The right wing froth-o-sphere cares.

Lemme anecdotify this for ya. I grew up Jewish; not so much religiously but culturally. Sorta yer secular Jew. I was in an actual temple about five times and always someone else's temple - my friend Billy Mervis or classmate Scott Zelden or Mike Rosenstein... But my mom considered herself a non-practicing Jew. And everyone in the community knew a number of such people. Temple, for those of you who aren't aware, is not really a "I think I'll try out that place in Greenpoint this week" sort of worship. It's a community thing and you "belong to" a temple. And many Jews simply do not.

Well, that was us. And because my mom was single, our Jewish friends would have me or my siblings over for seder or first night of Chanukah. So I was steeped in the traditions and particularly the community and culture. Besides, if your mom's a Jew... you're a Jew, so I self-identified as one, what with at least 25-30 years of that association.

Only it turns out I'm not a Jew. I found out in my 30s that my mom was making it up. For whatever reason, she created a Jewish background for herself and us. Her family were Cincinnati bible thumpers. Why did it take so long to find out? Because I didn't care. I wasn't running for Mayor of the Hassidim. I could've been genetically Black or Jewish or Cherokee; it was just part of me and it didn't require verification.

Why would anyone care? If you're brought up believing a story is part of your culture/history, and you repeat it, I think it makes you kinda "normal". I know pale white men who are so ghetto that if you just heard their voices you'd swear you were talking to a black dude. You are pretty much the life you lead and silly dinner-table-legends (as opposed to urban legends) are as big a part of us as anything else.
This. My Great Aunty Babsy swore blind we were descended from an illegitimate son of James V of Scotland (hey, all True Scotsmen are Princes don't you know!) and it makes a fun wee story for family and friends. But I won't get an invite to Harry and Megan's wedding out of it. As far as I can see Warren has never traded on her "heritage" whatever the right wing pundits and media claim so any rational person (which does leave out the right wing pundits and media of course) would regard this as a non-story.
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:23 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
This. My Great Aunty Babsy swore blind we were descended from an illegitimate son of James V of Scotland (hey, all True Scotsmen are Princes don't you know!) and it makes a fun wee story for family and friends. But I won't get an invite to Harry and Megan's wedding out of it. As far as I can see Warren has never traded on her "heritage" whatever the right wing pundits and media claim so any rational person (which does leave out the right wing pundits and media of course) would regard this as a non-story.
We're supposed to be descended from Mary Queen of Scots, my grandmother on my mom's side is a Stuart (or Stewart, not sure). So I looked the queen up and thought I could follow her ancestry. Turns out there are like 20,000 or so descendants, 1 of every 6 people* in the UK or something.

So I figure it's true, I am more likely than not related.


*don't recall the exact numbers
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Old 14th March 2018, 03:08 AM   #115
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According to my family we have a lineage back to Arthur Wellesley, the Duke of Wellington, but I wouldn't be counting it as a title. I'm also a 6th generation NZer able to trace back to the first white child born in my province. One of the streets is named after my Grandfather's grandfather, who owned a farm there and died by falling off a windmill, while another of his uncles was New Zealand's only Highway man.

Can I prove any of it, well some of it since my grandmother did the genealogy and so has my sister to a point, but most of it was oral tales before then. I have some weird family members, though most of the really odd ones aren't direct ascendants.

On my Grandmother's side her step-father killed himself by accidently drinking nitro-glycerine instead of his extremely strong black tea. One of her uncles was even the inspiration for the main character in a book called "Me and Gus".
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Old 14th March 2018, 03:27 AM   #116
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I've been led to believe that I have some U.S.-Virgin-Island indigenous genes - a great, great grandma or something from the time when the Virgin Islands were Danish colonies. I never had a gene test, though.
Does anybody know if I can have my own Crucian casino if it turns out to be true?!
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Old 14th March 2018, 03:35 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I was counting from the present backwards 2 x 2. Somebody who says "I'm a direct descendant of George Washington" is equally descended from many thousands of less illustrious people who were alive at that time. If you are descended from Pocahontas, she was just one of thousands of people who contributed equally to your heritage.
But not necessarily equally to your DNA. You get half from each parent, but each parent is not necessarily passing on an equal quarter from their parents or an equal eighth from each of their grandparents, are they?
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Old 14th March 2018, 04:46 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You're doing the math wrong based on what Bob is saying, you might have 2 parents and your mother might also have two parents, but your father had 2 parents as well, so that is 4 grandparents. At the 10th generation it's not 10 x 2 (20) people, but 2^10 people which is 1,024 ancestors in total. So your specific ancestor that you are interested in is just 1 in 1,024 at that level (assuming that none of the branches are interwoven which is slim to unlikely.) You are just looking at the one branch, Bob isn't.
Nope, you've made the same mistake. You are looking at total parentage for an individual, not a specific familial lineage for a person.

If you trace your line from you back to great ancestor X over the generations, it goes through a single pair of people through each generation. Draw your family tree starting at great great great great great grandfather Herbert and it may be huge. But the path from any one leaf - you - back to him at the root, which is what lineage is, goes through specific pairs of parents, not every pair of parents in the tree.
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Old 14th March 2018, 04:48 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
According to my family we have a lineage back to Arthur Wellesley, the Duke of Wellington, but I wouldn't be counting it as a title. I'm also a 6th generation NZer able to trace back to the first white child born in my province. One of the streets is named after my Grandfather's grandfather, who owned a farm there and died by falling off a windmill, while another of his uncles was New Zealand's only Highway man.

Can I prove any of it, well some of it since my grandmother did the genealogy and so has my sister to a point, but most of it was oral tales before then. I have some weird family members, though most of the really odd ones aren't direct ascendants.

On my Grandmother's side her step-father killed himself by accidently drinking nitro-glycerine instead of his extremely strong black tea. One of her uncles was even the inspiration for the main character in a book called "Me and Gus".
Family histories are awesome!
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Old 14th March 2018, 05:13 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Her claims of Native American ancestry have not been refuted, they just haven't been proven. All she has to go on are stories that were passed down from her family.


This is the crux of it. Even if it could be proven that her family history is incorrect, what exactly is she, personally, guilty of? She's guilty of believing the stories her grandparents told her.

That's some pretty weak sauce to be trying to play gotcha with.
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