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Tags Canada elections , Canada politics , Elizabeth May , justin trudeau , Thomas Mulcair

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Old 7th June 2017, 03:39 PM   #281
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So, the Liberals have announced big spending increases for the military...

From: http://www.thespec.com/news-story/73...y-14b-by-2027/
Canada will increase annual defence spending by $13.9 billion over the next decade...However, Sajjan was non-committal when pressed about whether the spending spike would result in a higher federal deficit or dramatic spending cuts down the road.The money will be used to put another 5,000 troops in uniform and add new modern capabilities, such as letting the military conduct cyberattacks and to buy armed drones for unmanned airstrikes.It will also go towards offsetting the skyrocketing financial — and political — cost of buying new warships and fighter jets.

I have no problem with increasing the defense budget. It should have been done years ago.

There are however a couple of causes for concern:

That increase, officials said, lines up with when the government plans to begin spending in earnest on 15 new warships, which are now expected to cost up to $60 billion to build instead of the previous estimate of $26 billion.The government also plans to buy 88 new fighter jets at a cost of between $15 billion and $19 billion, which is significantly more than the $9 billion the Conservatives budgeted for 65 F-35s.
But the defence policy also puts off much of the spending until after the next election in 2019.



First of all, anyone who was complaining about he F35s being "too expensive", how d you feel about spending even more for whatever plane the Liberals end up getting? (Yeah, I know... things are a bit more complex, because you have to deal with prices per plane, purchase price vs. maintenance, etc. But given how much the conservatives were beaten up over the issue, I don't really have much sympathy for the Liberals.)


Secondly... the big increases aren't supposed to come until after the next election. More than enough time for either: 1) The Liberals to change their mind, or 2) for the Liberals to lose the next election, then they can blame any deficit increases for military spending on whomever replaces them.
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Old 8th June 2017, 04:41 AM   #282
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Over the last 31 years of service to the Captain General/HMTQ I've had 6 different governments decry the neglect of the CAF, and promise to spend what is necessary to allow the CAF to do what Canadians need it to do.

I might just be a little jaded, as all this tends to result in 0 extra pairs of boots on the armoury floor, fewer ships, a smaller air fleet and the mantra that we'll need to balance military needs with the other requirements of government. Maybe this time it'll be different, but I think I will hold off on praising the move until the words get translated in operational orders with a valid fin code.
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Old 8th June 2017, 10:20 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
I might just be a little jaded, as all this tends to result in 0 extra pairs of boots on the armoury floor, fewer ships, a smaller air fleet and the mantra that we'll need to balance military needs with the other requirements of government. Maybe this time it'll be different, but I think I will hold off on praising the move until the words get translated in operational orders with a valid fin code.
I'm sure this time it will be totally different.

Admittedly, it is a switch in Liberal rhetoric from the election, where they were campaigning on a "leaner" military (which many took to mean "more defense cuts.)
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Old 15th June 2017, 02:35 PM   #284
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Not sure if this belongs here or in Social Issues, but something long overdue:

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...community.html

Good for the feds.
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Old 16th June 2017, 08:55 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Not sure if this belongs here or in Social Issues, but something long overdue:

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...community.html

Good for the feds.
This bit at the end says, "Treasury Board, get the cheque book ready."

"Egale also recommended the government examine whether and how to compensate people who suffered past discrimination because of their sexual orientation.

Trudeau made no mention of compensation as he made his announcement."
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Old 16th June 2017, 09:07 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
This bit at the end says, "Treasury Board, get the cheque book ready."

"Egale also recommended the government examine whether and how to compensate people who suffered past discrimination because of their sexual orientation.

Trudeau made no mention of compensation as he made his announcement."
The article mentions that gay sex was illegal until 1969. That was almost 5 decades ago. Would there be many people alive now who would have been affected by the law? And at the time, was the law actually being enforced, or was it a case of some law that exists but never really got enforced by police?
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Old 16th June 2017, 10:15 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The article mentions that gay sex was illegal until 1969. That was almost 5 decades ago. Would there be many people alive now who would have been affected by the law? And at the time, was the law actually being enforced, or was it a case of some law that exists but never really got enforced by police?
Seems the last person convicted/imprisoned in Canada for homosexual activity was one Everett George Klippert (1926 to 1996), in 1965 at the age of 39. if Klippert was alive today he would be 91. A young man of 20 in 1965 would be 73 today. You are likely correct that few people convicted under this law are still alive. For those who are still with us - better late than never. At least they can live part of their lives without an unjust criminal conviction.

On Monday we will be attending the 70th birthday celebration of a friend who was 18 when Klippert was imprisoned, and 22 when the law was repealed. Although never arrested our friend lived the early part of his adult life in some fear that the authorities might "discover" him. I think this expungement and apology applies by extension also to those whose lifestyle in the 60's could have resulted in criminal charges and who lived in fear of this happening.
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Old 16th June 2017, 02:02 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The article mentions that gay sex was illegal until 1969. That was almost 5 decades ago. Would there be many people alive now who would have been affected by the law? And at the time, was the law actually being enforced, or was it a case of some law that exists but never really got enforced by police?


It stopped being illegal to be gay in 1969, but it remained a ground for release from the CAF until 1993, when Michelle Douglas successfully challenged the regulations that would gave seen one of the first female fighter pilots released as a "sexual deviant" despite her highly rated performance.

It's an odd thing, when I joined the CAF in 1986 it was based on the idea that our job was to stop the onrushing Soviet hordes from getting through the Fulda Gap into West Germany from Czechoslovakia. Women were only in support/administration roles. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms had only been in effect for a year....

Then in 1988, based on 15 years of testing (and to pre-empt Charter challenges) the CAF let women into almost every military occupation except submariner.

It wasn't until 5 years after that they figured that gay people could do the same and that maybe it wasn't smart to release people for something unrelated to military functions and waste all that time and effort spent in previously training them....

Then 12 years later my buddy was taking part in a NATO exercise where Canadian gunners and UK attack copters were supporting Czech infantry in the advance.

And then move up to this year where we are deploying to once again stop the Russian hordes....

And we (officially) don't care what your plumbing is, or what adult you prefer doing it to.
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Old 16th June 2017, 10:12 PM   #289
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Here's another welcome change, although I'm not sure how much Trudeau or his government had to do with it.

CRTC bans cellphone unlocking fees, orders all new devices be unlocked

Originally Posted by CBC
As of Dec. 1, cellular providers will have to unlock your phone free of charge

As of Dec. 1, cellphone customers can ask their provider to unlock their phones free of charge, the CRTC announced Thursday. At the same time, it said, all newly purchased mobile devices must be provided to customers unlocked.

<snip>

The commission's decision on unlocking fees came out of a review of its 2013 wireless code created in part to help limit costly cellphone fees for consumers.

As part of the review, the commission also announced that only the account holder can consent to data overage and additional roaming charges in a family-shared cellphone plan. Other plan members will only be able to give consent if the account holder grants them approval.
That last part is significant because it prevents kids from saying "Yes" to a text message sent to their phone to unlock a data cap, even if it's their parents paying the bill. Now only the primary account holder can consent (or can delegate it.) This rule is effective immediately.
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Old 16th June 2017, 10:43 PM   #290
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Peter Tatchell a long time human rights campaigner wrote a very good article about the 1967 act in England and Wales

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-four-1967-act

was it similar in Canada after your 1969 act?
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Old 17th June 2017, 09:06 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Peter Tatchell a long time human rights campaigner wrote a very good article about the 1967 act in England and Wales

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-four-1967-act

Was it similar in Canada after your 1969 act?
Good question. Pierre Trudeau, father of current PM Justin Trudeau, famously said in 1969, "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." That year he removed most offences related to same-sex relationships from the criminal code. However, that wasn't the same as gaining rights under the law, especially against discrimination in housing and employment. The CBC has a good article from 2012 on this.

The current Trudeau government introduced legislation just last year to remove sodomy between males from the criminal code.
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Old 6th July 2017, 03:11 PM   #292
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Latest news out of the great white north:

Canada day (150).... went off without a hitch. A good time was had by all. Well, except for:
- A native group who 'crashed' parliament hill and put up a teepee right before the celebrations. (They had demands like scrapping the Indian act and renaming the department of Indigenous and Northern Affairs.)
- Access to Parliament Hill for Canada day was problematic, with tight security, long lines and disorganization. (Some people waited hours to get to parliament hill, only to be told "You aren't in an official line so we can't let you in"

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle35511310/
http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/frust...ment-1.3485336

Omar Kahdr may be receiving $10 million and an official apology.

If you don't know who he is, Kahdr was a former member of the Taliban who was picked up and and shipped to Gitmo when he was just 15. This has caused a lot of division... Those supporting giving Kahdr money and an apology say he was a child soldier and point to a supreme court ruling that said his rights were violated. On the other hand,
those opposed point out that:
- Unlike someone like David Milgard (who was innocent/wrongly imprisoned), there is no doubt that Kahdr had participated in terrorist activities.
- While he was under 18 at the time of his arrest, he may not have fit the image of a 'child soldier' (many child soldiers are conscripted/forced to participate, whereas Kahdr appears to have participated voluntarily)
- The supreme court rejected allegations that CSIS was involved in his mistreatment

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/jenni-b...rd_a_23019428/
http://globalnews.ca/news/3579819/co...-compensation/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/omar-...ment-1.4189890
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Old 6th July 2017, 03:32 PM   #293
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I've followed the Khadr story off-and-on for a while now. Noted that CBC coverage seemed strongly slanted in his favor.
Some sort of nationalist group (the Proud Boys) had an ugly but apparently nonviolent confrontation with some native activists. Turns out a couple of their members are servicemen, which could make it more of an issue.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...boys-1.4189020
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Old 6th July 2017, 03:59 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I've followed the Khadr story off-and-on for a while now. Noted that CBC coverage seemed strongly slanted in his favor.
Some sort of nationalist group (the Proud Boys) had an ugly but apparently nonviolent confrontation with some native activists. Turns out a couple of their members are servicemen, which could make it more of an issue.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...boys-1.4189020


The involvement of service members is an issue, mainly for the members, who have been suspended from duty. The CDS and Comd of the Atlantic Fleet have apologized and that's been accepted by the First Nation. I'm a little concerned that CAF members are in that group, given the way they present themselves, and what that could mean for the CAF (I'm old enough to remember the kick in the gut of the post-Somalia revelations of CAF members being in white supremacist groups.
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Old 7th July 2017, 08:33 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I've followed the Khadr story off-and-on for a while now. Noted that CBC coverage seemed strongly slanted in his favor.
Yeah, they and the Toronto (Red) Star seem to be the ones who take the strongest pro-Kahdr slant, whereas the National Post and Sun chains have taken the opposite position.

I wonder how much this will affect the Liberals in the future elections, since from here on out the political right will play Trudeau up as "giving money to terrorists".

The legal battles aren't yet over though, since several people (including the wife of the soldier that Khadr confessed to killing) have started lawsuits against him.

Has anyone actually seen any quotes or statements made by Khadr himself? (Plenty of stuff about the payments, but not much from the man himself.) I'd be interested to know whether he has disavowed his family (since, if he were really a "child soldier forced to participate", his first reaction should be to condemn the people who dragged him into the war in the first place.)
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Old 7th July 2017, 07:51 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Has anyone actually seen any quotes or statements made by Khadr himself? (Plenty of stuff about the payments, but not much from the man himself.) I'd be interested to know whether he has disavowed his family (since, if he were really a "child soldier forced to participate", his first reaction should be to condemn the people who dragged him into the war in the first place.)


The Ottawa Citizen has a brief interview:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/na...096/story.html
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Old 4th January 2018, 04:58 PM   #297
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Thread bump, related to our fighter jet purchases.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Looks like Canada is going to be buying the F18 Super Hornet as an "interim measure".

From: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...aft-is-unknown
The Canadian government intends to purchase 18 Boeing Super Hornet fighter jets to deal with what it says is a gap in the country’s defence capabilities.
Looks like Canada's plans have changed. They announced that rather than buying new F18 Super Hornets, we would be buying used F18 Hornets from Australia (which are more like Canada's CF18 fleet.)

One of the main issues may be due to an on-going trade dispute involving Bombardier (a passenger plane manufacturer based in Canada.) Boeing claims Canada is unfairly subsidizing the company.

From: http://www.macleans.ca/politics/otta...lias-old-jets/
American aerospace champion Boeing is in a bit of a trade war against Canada’s Bombardier, so the Super Hornet buy is off. Instead, Canada will pick up 18 of those familiar old F-18s, used from Australia, to tide our air force over until up-to-date jets are finally acquired. As well, in a twist that looks pointedly aimed at Boeing, the government announced that in the bidding process for the new jets, if any company that’s competing just happens to be embroiled in a trade scrap with Canada, it will be penalized. “When the bids are assessed,” reads the new condition, “any bidder responsible for harm to Canada’s economic interests will be at a distinct disadvantage.”

So, this seems to be blowing up in the Liberal's faces quite nicely.

We didn't really need the extra planes. My theory was that the the purchase of the extra planes was a way for the Liberals to rig future competitions in favor of the F18 Super Hornets, but with the trade dispute they were stuck... couldn't do anything to support Boeing, couldn't very well say "no purchase" since they made such a big deal of needing extra planes in the first place.

At least by buying older planes, we won't have the training costs and any future jet procurement will be less likely to be biased. So, a waste of money, but not as bad as it could have been.

Next steps for our fighter jet replacement?
2018: Get a list of interested suppliers
2019: Formal requests for bids
2022: Contract awarded
2025: First plane delivered

https://globalnews.ca/news/3912118/f...ade-challenge/
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Old 29th January 2018, 02:22 PM   #298
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Latest news from the Great White North:

Remember mail delivery? Remember big bad Harper's plans to take away door-to-door mail delivery and replacing it with super-mailboxes? The Liberals of course promised to "save" mail delivery.

After the election, Canada Post stopped converting mail delivery to super-mailboxes until a decision about what to do could be made. Well, the government has finally made a decision:

http://www.fortmcmurraytoday.com/201...e-door-to-door
A program launched by the Harper Conservatives to end door-to-door mail delivery in Canada was formally ended Wednesday by the Trudeau government as part of a new plan the Liberals say will eventually put Canada Post on a more sound financial footing. However, the roughly 840,000 households that have converted to community mail boxes since 2014 were told they won’t get the service back.

Canada post currently earns a profit, but that's mostly though its parcel delivery system. Mail delivery is contributing to a loss. They are supposed to find new ways to cover the losses, but who knows if that will be possible. Meanwhile, the unions are complaining, suggesting that ALL door-to-door service be restored (with the costs covered by things like allowing the post office to offer banking services).

Personally I view the situation as yet another screw-up by the Liberals... They make a promise that sounds good on paper (save postal delivery! Scrap the F35!), but is ultimately a huge mistake.
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Old 29th January 2018, 02:35 PM   #299
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And since Canada has been missing out on all the sexual harassment fun, we have this:

From; https://globalnews.ca/news/3986503/k...t-allegations/
Liberal MP Kent Hehr has resigned from the federal cabinet over sexual harassment allegations but will continue to sit in the party caucus.

But just in case you think its the Liberals who are having all the fun, the Ontario Conservatives are also basking in the glow:

http://nationalpost.com/news/politic...ng-allegations
Ontario’s Opposition leader is stepping down amid allegations of sexual misconduct, dealing a severe blow to his party just months before the province heads to the polls.Patrick Brown announced the decision in a statement issued early Thursday morning, following a hastily called news conference in which the Progressive Conservative leader “categorically” denied what he called “troubling allegations” about his conduct and his character.
...
Brown’s political future as Ontario’s Opposition leader was thrown into turmoil Wednesday as the allegations of sexual misconduct levelled against him prompted calls for his resignation.


As part of the fallout for this, they've gotten rid of others, such as the party president.

They have an interim leader (Vic Fideli), but they're going to have a new leadership vote shortly (although some might think they'd be better off just sticking to the interim leader until after the election.)
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Old 29th January 2018, 02:43 PM   #300
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I remember hearing the community mail boxes a while back when Harper was first putting forth the plan. I thought it sensible at the time. It really seemed like a rare example of a government recognizing a trend and trying get out in front of it instead of doing nothing and waiting for something to become a crisis. Maybe there were some good arguments against it that I missed, but it seems like changes in the way we use mail are here to stay.
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Old 29th January 2018, 03:15 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I remember hearing the community mail boxes a while back when Harper was first putting forth the plan. I thought it sensible at the time. It really seemed like a rare example of a government recognizing a trend and trying get out in front of it instead of doing nothing and waiting for something to become a crisis. Maybe there were some good arguments against it that I missed, but it seems like changes in the way we use mail are here to stay.
Many of the arguments against community mailbox are emotional... "what about the elderly/disabled who can't make it to a mailbox?" (My response to that is: if they are living in a house, they need to have yard work done anyways... so either they are mobile enough to get to a mailbox or can hire someone to get their mail for them.)

Another argument is that "Canada post is profitable so why change it?". But then, as I pointed out, its only profitable because of their parcel delivery service.
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Old 30th January 2018, 09:08 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Latest news from the Great White North:

Remember mail delivery? Remember big bad Harper's plans to take away door-to-door mail delivery and replacing it with super-mailboxes? The Liberals of course promised to "save" mail delivery.

After the election, Canada Post stopped converting mail delivery to super-mailboxes until a decision about what to do could be made. Well, the government has finally made a decision:

http://www.fortmcmurraytoday.com/201...e-door-to-door
A program launched by the Harper Conservatives to end door-to-door mail delivery in Canada was formally ended Wednesday by the Trudeau government as part of a new plan the Liberals say will eventually put Canada Post on a more sound financial footing. However, the roughly 840,000 households that have converted to community mail boxes since 2014 were told they won’t get the service back.

Canada post currently earns a profit, but that's mostly though its parcel delivery system. Mail delivery is contributing to a loss. They are supposed to find new ways to cover the losses, but who knows if that will be possible. Meanwhile, the unions are complaining, suggesting that ALL door-to-door service be restored (with the costs covered by things like allowing the post office to offer banking services).

Personally I view the situation as yet another screw-up by the Liberals... They make a promise that sounds good on paper (save postal delivery! Scrap the F35!), but is ultimately a huge mistake.
Isn't that the way it always is, though?

The Liberals aren't doing enough to fix the mess left by the PCs.
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Old 30th January 2018, 09:47 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
Isn't that the way it always is, though?

The Liberals aren't doing enough to fix the mess left by the PCs.
In this case, the "mess" was not one that was left by the PCs.

The problem (if one exists) is that people are not using mail as much anymore, which means that mail delivery might end up being a money-losing activity (fewer stamps sold, needing to support the same delivery infrastructure). So, either: 1) Canada Post needs to find a way to reduce costs, 2) Canada Post needs to find a way to increase revenue, or 3) The federal government will need to subsidize Canada post through general tax revenue

There are limited options for increasing revenue. The Unions want Canada post to offer banking services, but given the growth in on-line banking that's not really going to do much. They have been subsidizing mail delivery with parcel delivery service, but since they have to compete with companies like FedEx, there are limits to how much they can charge for package delivery and still remain competitive.

Subsidizing through tax revenue would be politically unpopular.

So that leaves reducing costs. Given the fact that Canada Post is heavily unionized, there isn't much that can be done to control worker's salaries. Most of the mail transportation system is already heavily mechanized so there isn't much saving there. They could in theory cut down delivery from 5 days/week to 2/3 days per week, but many would see that as an unacceptable reduction of services. (And its not something the Liberals suggested doing anyways.)

That leaves Super Mailboxes (something that Millions of people were using anyways).

So the conservatives were faced with making a tough decision, and they did, by making a rational decision based on pragmatism and costs. The Liberals made a bunch of election promises about restoring mail services that sounded good but were ultimately impractical, and decided to follow up with some pretty empty ideas.
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Old 31st January 2018, 11:20 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
So the conservatives were faced with making a tough decision, and they did, by making a rational decision based on pragmatism and costs.


How so?

Assuming this is true:

Quote:
Canada post currently earns a profit, but that's mostly though its parcel delivery system. Mail delivery is contributing to a loss. They are supposed to find new ways to cover the losses, but who knows if that will be possible.

what's wrong with just supporting the status quo? They're not losing money overall, so why not just let the parcel delivery services cover the costs of the mail delivery? The only reason they have to go through the options you listed are if you insist on them making greater profits than they currently are making, and I don't see why that is pragmatically needed.

Insisting that they absolutely must cuts cost even when profitable is an ideological point, not a pragmatic one. The Conservatives insisted on that because that's what they always insist on, for every business out there, no matter what. The notion that a business might subsidize one service with the profits of another is simply anathema to them. I see no reason why the Liberals should have to agree with them on that point.

Regular mail service (even today) has benefits to society that are worth subsidizing the costs of such a service. That was the whole point of a national postal service from the beginning.
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Old 31st January 2018, 11:57 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Quote:
Canada post currently earns a profit, but that's mostly though its parcel delivery system. Mail delivery is contributing to a loss. They are supposed to find new ways to cover the losses, but who knows if that will be possible.
what's wrong with just supporting the status quo? They're not losing money overall, so why not just let the parcel delivery services cover the costs of the mail delivery?
Because the status quo is changing... they may turn a profit (or break even) now, but mail volumes will likely continue to drop, making door-to-door letter mail an even bigger financial drain. Eventually, even subsidies from parcel delivery will not be able to cover the short fall.

From: http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cana...2020-1.1335221 (a 2013 article)
Falling mail volumes will result in Canada Post losing a billion dollars a year by 2020, the Conference Board of Canada said Tuesday in a report that suggests some controversial ways the Crown corporation could address the problem. The Conference Board report, which was commissioned by Canada Post, estimates that the postal system's total volume of mail will drop by more than 25 per cent within the next seven years. Only parcel volume is expected to rise as e-commerce continues to grow in popularity. But the report says the growth in parcel business will not make up for the loss in revenue from other lines of business.

Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention... Some of Canada post's profits are due to the sale of buildings it owns, something that they will not be able to replicate obviously.



https://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...ticle12233548/
Quote:
The only reason they have to go through the options you listed are if you insist on them making greater profits than they currently are making, and I don't see why that is pragmatically needed.
They don't need to earn a profit; breaking even would be acceptable. But that will be harder and harder as mail volumes drop further and further.
Quote:
Regular mail service (even today) has benefits to society that are worth subsidizing the costs of such a service. That was the whole point of a national postal service from the beginning.
Replacement of door-to-door service with super boxes gives pretty much the same benefit to society, and does so at a more maintainable cost. Nobody is suggesting the elimination or privatization of all mail service, only that the final delivery does not have to go to the recipient's house, but a central location within the neighborhood.

Given the fact that many people are already using super boxes, and that many other people receive only a couple of pieces of mail a year, its difficult to see the need to maintain door-to-door delivery.
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Old 31st January 2018, 12:13 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
what's wrong with just supporting the status quo? They're not losing money overall, so why not just let the parcel delivery services cover the costs of the mail delivery?
One other reference (that I should have included in my previous post)....

From: https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/examen...isable=true#a7 (i.e. a report right from Canada post)...
...despite an almost 10% growth in parcel volumes at Canada Post in 2015 over the previous year, the longer term revenue growth in parcels may not be sustainable or enough to offset future declines in letter revenues. The outlook for Canada Post in the Canadian parcels market is far from certain given the large number of competitors in the parcels market, including the new entrants this growing market is attracting. Greater competition is beginning to force down market prices and lower cost delivery venues will make it more difficult for Canada Post to compete since the corporation has tied its parcel delivery to its labour-intensive mail delivery. While Canada Post is able to absorb the sizeable overhead network costs in its transaction mail line of business, this approach will become less feasible over the longer term as transaction mail volumes continue to decline, unless corporate revenues are maintained or increased through higher stamp prices or other options.
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Old 31st January 2018, 12:27 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Replacement of door-to-door service with super boxes gives pretty much the same benefit to society, and does so at a more maintainable cost. Nobody is suggesting the elimination or privatization of all mail service, only that the final delivery does not have to go to the recipient's house, but a central location within the neighborhood.

Given the fact that many people are already using super boxes, and that many other people receive only a couple of pieces of mail a year, its difficult to see the need to maintain door-to-door delivery.
It's a challenge yeah. One factor I hope CP takes into account is that everybody I know who's been transitioned to superboxes has pretty much stopped using CP entirely. Especially in areas with inclement weather. superboxes may be the end of CP as a viable entity period.
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Old 31st January 2018, 12:50 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
It's a challenge yeah. One factor I hope CP takes into account is that everybody I know who's been transitioned to superboxes has pretty much stopped using CP entirely. Especially in areas with inclement weather. superboxes may be the end of CP as a viable entity period.
Valid point. We have indoor central mailboxes in our townhome strata. When we replaced the access keys last year there were more than a dozen residents never bothered to pick theirs up. Said they never use the mailbox. (I wonder what happens to the accumulation of junk mail?)
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:06 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
It's a challenge yeah. One factor I hope CP takes into account is that everybody I know who's been transitioned to superboxes has pretty much stopped using CP entirely. Especially in areas with inclement weather. superboxes may be the end of CP as a viable entity period.
The question is whether their use of postal services has ended specifically because of the user of super boxes, or was just part of a general trend of using mail that just happened to coincide with the use of the boxes. If they find it so easy to give up on the user of mail whey they were converted to superboxes, I suspect they weren't regular mail recipients anyways.

Since superboxes are for the receiving of mail, I doubt most people could totally give up on them since they don't have much control over who is sending them stuff. (I still get occasional pieces of letter mail... tax receipts, a wedding invitation, christmas cards, parcels that are sent through regular post rather than couriered, etc.) I can't see how converting someone to a superbox would affect their willingness to deliver mail. (Heck, if anything it would make it simpler, since superboxes usually have a delivery slot, which gives more places where you can send mail without finding one of the big red boxes.)
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:15 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Valid point. We have indoor central mailboxes in our townhome strata. When we replaced the access keys last year there were more than a dozen residents never bothered to pick theirs up. Said they never use the mailbox. (I wonder what happens to the accumulation of junk mail?)
More importantly, what happens to the occasional piece of snail-mail that gets sent to the box with the expectation that people will look at it?

Yes, I use email, and get a lot of parcels delivered to my house. Snail mail is rare, but I do receive it (since its not always easy to arrange alternate delivery ahead of time.) In the past year, I have received:
- Tax receipts for charitable deductions
- Notifications from my doctor's office about upcoming appointments from specialists
- Wedding invitations
- Birthday/christmas cards
- Ordered products that were sent via canada post rather than parcels (some stuff does fit in an envelope...)
- New bank cards

In all those cases, I didn't have advanced warning to arrange alternate delivery. No chance to contact the sender to arrange FedEx or electronic document delivery.
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Old 31st January 2018, 03:21 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
It's a challenge yeah. One factor I hope CP takes into account is that everybody I know who's been transitioned to superboxes has pretty much stopped using CP entirely. Especially in areas with inclement weather. superboxes may be the end of CP as a viable entity period.

And what would be the impact of this change on the parcel delivery, which as noted is the one profitable business line? Reliable door service is the one thing they have that's better than the competition. Even in cases where they can't leave the package at my door, the pick up center is far more convenient than Fed Ex or the others. If they lose that, they'll almost certainly lose even more market share.


Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
More importantly, what happens to the occasional piece of snail-mail that gets sent to the box with the expectation that people will look at it?

Yes, I use email, and get a lot of parcels delivered to my house. Snail mail is rare, but I do receive it (since its not always easy to arrange alternate delivery ahead of time.)

And the occasional nature of such mail makes home delivery more important, not less, IMO. I'm not going to make regular pilgrimages to The Box just to see if today was the day someone randomly sent me something important by mail. But if it shows up at my door, it doesn't matter how random it is, I'll see it when it arrives.

If they're projected to lose a significant enough fraction of their package delivery so as to start losing money, then we as a society need to just suck it up, and either fund it through taxes, or let it die. If, as I believe, this service has value to society, we should fund it through taxes. If we decide it's an obsolete service, or one we just no longer value, we should let it die.

And that last option should be the Conservatives' position in the next election. You either believe in the free market or you don't; it's clear that people have, by and large, voted that letter postal service isn't worth the price they'd have to pay to make it economically viable, and the market should let it die. Anything else is either vile socialism, or just painting over the cracks and hoping no one blames you when it collapses under its own weight.
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Old 31st January 2018, 03:45 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The question is whether their use of postal services has ended specifically because of the user of super boxes, or was just part of a general trend of using mail that just happened to coincide with the use of the boxes. If they find it so easy to give up on the user of mail whey they were converted to superboxes, I suspect they weren't regular mail recipients anyways.
Depends on what you mean by regular. My parents did the birthday/holiday gift thing with friends and family.

Regarding root cause: yes, it's the boxes specifically. It's a long walk, in torrential vancouver rain, mud on the ground, dogs running around. In winter it's snow and ice. My parents are in their 70s and don't want another broken hip.

They tell us to just use Fedex now. Fedex delivers to the door, easy peasy.
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Old 31st January 2018, 03:47 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
And the occasional nature of such mail makes home delivery more important, not less, IMO. I'm not going to make regular pilgrimages to The Box just to see if today was the day someone randomly sent me something important by mail. But if it shows up at my door, it doesn't matter how random it is, I'll see it when it arrives.
Who said you had to make a trip to a super-mailbox on a daily basis? I suspect most people could make do with a once/twice a week visit to the mail box.
Quote:
If they're projected to lose a significant enough fraction of their package delivery so as to start losing money, then we as a society need to just suck it up, and either fund it through taxes, or let it die. If, as I believe, this service has value to society, we should fund it through taxes. If we decide it's an obsolete service, or one we just no longer value, we should let it die.
Seems like a false dichotomy.

So, of the millions of people who currently uses super mailboxes, are you trying to say that their mail service is somehow useless because they have to walk a few feet to get their mail rather than having it delivered personally to their house?

This is a debate that affects a minority of homes in Canada. Most people already either have super mailboxes, or live in apartments that have their mail boxes in the lobby. Yet despite the millions of people who currently don't have door to door delivery, society has not collapsed.
Quote:
And that last option should be the Conservatives' position in the next election. You either believe in the free market or you don't; it's clear that people have, by and large, voted that letter postal service isn't worth the price they'd have to pay to make it economically viable, and the market should let it die. Anything else is either vile socialism, or just painting over the cracks and hoping no one blames you when it collapses under its own weight.
Just in case you didn't realize, Conservatives are not Libertarians. They aren't running around trying to privatize everything and turn everything into a free-enterprise utopia. They may not be gung-ho into spending money on everything hair-brain idea that they think up, but that doesn't mean that they don't see a need for at least some government services.

You may not like the idea of "super-mailboxes", but it is darn more viable than the liberal plan of "keep up with door-to-door because somehow a solution will magically appear that will fix their revenue problems".

I have a super-mailbox. Not one of my neighbors that I've talked to has said "I never use it". And when I happen to see the mailman loading mail into the boxes, I never see any of the boxes over-stuffed (so obviously everyone in my area is picking up the mail on a fairly regular schedule).
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Old 31st January 2018, 03:48 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
And what would be the impact of this change on the parcel delivery, which as noted is the one profitable business line? Reliable door service is the one thing they have that's better than the competition. Even in cases where they can't leave the package at my door, the pick up center is far more convenient than Fed Ex or the others. If they lose that, they'll almost certainly lose even more market share.
This is what happened in the examples that come to mind. All CP had that made them special was reliable delivery to the house.

If I have to bundle up to pick up my mail, then it's about as much effort as going to the UPS Store. Maybe less - the UPS Store is in a covered mall where my mom shops anyway, it's literally less walking.
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Old 31st January 2018, 03:51 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Depends on what you mean by regular. My parents did the birthday/holiday gift thing with friends and family.

Regarding root cause: yes, it's the boxes specifically. It's a long walk, in torrential vancouver rain, mud on the ground, dogs running around. In winter it's snow and ice. My parents are in their 70s and don't want another broken hip.

They tell us to just use Fedex now. Fedex delivers to the door, easy peasy.
Do your parents live in a home? Do they shovel their driveway/mow their lawn? How about getting groceries? Or are they housebound?

It seems rather bizarre to me that someone who is capable of maintaining a home doesn't have either the ability or the resources to obtain mail on a regular basis.
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Old 31st January 2018, 03:56 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
This is what happened in the examples that come to mind. All CP had that made them special was reliable delivery to the house.

If I have to bundle up to pick up my mail, then it's about as much effort as going to the UPS Store. Maybe less - the UPS Store is in a covered mall where my mom shops anyway, it's literally less walking.
You know, many people actually don't need to make a special trip when picking up their mail from a super mailbox. They are quite fine walking over to their box after shoveling their driveway, or when they get home at night, and they are already bundled up.

And the distance I have to walk to my super mailbox would be far less than the distance I'd have to walk in a parking lot in order to get to my local UPS store.

It just astounds me that the idea of walking a few extra feet to pick up your mail would be considered such a hardship.
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Old 31st January 2018, 03:57 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
So, of the millions of people who currently uses super mailboxes, are you trying to say that their mail service is somehow useless because they have to walk a few feet to get their mail rather than having it delivered personally to their house?
Well, that's a good question... don't confuse "have supermailboxes" with "use supermailboxes."

My parents have one but don't use it. The key is floating around somewhere in a drawer. One benefit: it's solved their junkmail problem.



Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
This is a debate that affects a minority of homes in Canada. Most people already either have super mailboxes, or live in apartments that have their mail boxes in the lobby. Yet despite the millions of people who currently don't have door to door delivery, society has not collapsed.
Society hasn't collapsed, but CP's prospects have. It's a death spiral that could have been prevented IMO.




Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I have a super-mailbox. Not one of my neighbors that I've talked to has said "I never use it". And when I happen to see the mailman loading mail into the boxes, I never see any of the boxes over-stuffed (so obviously everyone in my area is picking up the mail on a fairly regular schedule).
Regarding overstuffed - my neighbour a couple houses up is a CP outside delivery, and his view is how would anybody know. He stops shoving mail into them when there's no more space but they're not usually visibly full to anybody on the street. That's intentional, as a security precaution for the recipient, so people don't know they're on holiday.
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Old 31st January 2018, 03:58 PM   #318
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In other news to the north, anyone else following the drama with the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls? Multiple resignations, lots of criticism. I knew it might be controversial, but I hadn't anticipated anything quite like this. I think it's politically interesting since the Liberals are taking heat over it from sources other than their usual opponents.
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Old 31st January 2018, 04:03 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
You know, many people actually don't need to make a special trip when picking up their mail from a super mailbox. They are quite fine walking over to their box after shoveling their driveway, or when they get home at night, and they are already bundled up.
Not sure what you mean by this. My example is my parents, who are retired. They don't go out daily, and can't shovel the driveway. If they need the driveway shoveled to go on their weekly shopping, they call me and I pop by on Saturday and do it.

I'll grab a photo if it'll help, but their superbox is not even within sight of their house. About 200m up and down a steep muddy hill, no sidewalk so they'd have to walk on the road. They don't feel safe.



Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And the distance I have to walk to my super mailbox would be far less than the distance I'd have to walk in a parking lot in order to get to my local UPS store.
Right, but the point is the UPS store is where they're already shopping. In terms of absolute steps, it's less walking than to their superbox. And a lot safer. And drier.



Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
It just astounds me that the idea of walking a few extra feet to pick up your mail would be considered such a hardship.
Well, you're not a frail senior with a titanium hip.

Canada's demographics are aging, this is going to negatively affect a significant percentage, a growing percentage.
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Old 31st January 2018, 04:35 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Quote:
You know, many people actually don't need to make a special trip when picking up their mail from a super mailbox. They are quite fine walking over to their box after shoveling their driveway, or when they get home at night, and they are already bundled up.
Not sure what you mean by this.
You complained about people having to bundle up specifically to go to their mailboxes. I'm pointing out that since the vast vast majority of people go out anyways, there will be times when they are already properly dressed and don't have to "bundle up" specifically to get their mail.
Quote:
My example is my parents, who are retired. They don't go out daily, and can't shovel the driveway. If they need the driveway shoveled to go on their weekly shopping, they call me and I pop by on Saturday and do it.
So, in other words, they have resources (in this case you) who would have the ability to pick up their mail for them on Saturday, after you finish shoveling (or mowing the lawn, or doing whatever work they need done).
Quote:
I'll grab a photo if it'll help, but their superbox is not even within sight of their house. About 200m up and down a steep muddy hill, no sidewalk so they'd have to walk on the road. They don't feel safe.
I thought you were going to say it was uphill both ways. And they had to walk the distance with no shoes.

Ok, so its down a hill and has no sidewalk... What is the reason they can't drive their car and stop by the mailbox when they're out running errands? Then, they only have to walk from the curb to the mailbox. I doubt they live on a freeway.
Quote:
Right, but the point is the UPS store is where they're already shopping. In terms of absolute steps, it's less walking than to their superbox. And a lot safer. And drier.
You know, I know it can rain a lot on the west coast. But I doubt that the area receives solid rain, 24/7.
Quote:
Quote:
It just astounds me that the idea of walking a few extra feet to pick up your mail would be considered such a hardship.
Well, you're not a frail senior with a titanium hip.
And once again, as I've explained... if they are living in a home, they have already figured out how to manage chores that involve either traveling or household/yard work. If they have artificial hips or cannot do yard work themselves, they hire or get someone else to do it.

Asking the kid who mows your lawn or shovels your driveway to walk down to the mailbox should be pretty much a no-brainer.
Quote:
Canada's demographics are aging, this is going to negatively affect a significant percentage, a growing percentage.
Maybe, maybe not.

While your parents supposedly have to walk long distances along muddy hills, I suspect that their situation is probably less common. More and more people live in high-density housing (town homes and the like), and most people live in urban areas. So overall people will have less distance to walk, and their travels will be on more solid ground. Not to mention the fact that many elderly people retire and move into condos, which already have their own super mailboxes.
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