ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

Closed Thread
Old 8th March 2018, 08:26 AM   #3641
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,964
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Not only am I for real, but so is the APA.

A lie??? How can you call it a lie when I have linked directly to the code of ethics, the standards of practice and the APA rebuttals of arguments against their position? Is the APA lying too?
LOL NOW you mention the APA.

I highlighted exactly your lies. You present as if the APA's guidelines are universal and unquestioned and apply to everyone in the country; the same exact line you've been saying since day one. So, yes, at this point, it's a lie to make even shorthand statements which imply something other than what is the truth ó even members of the APA itself disagree strongly with the so-called Goldwater Rule. I don't recall, but did you acknowledge that the APA changed the rule as of last year as well? Suddenly? Tightening it compared with when it was first written?



Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Since when is a doctor a "political opponent" of Trump's. That notwithstanding, some of the doctors raising the alarm are probably Republicans.

Why the canard that all opposition to Trump is purely politically motivated?
This will get ignored; I asked the exact same thing months ago.




Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
And that's perfectly fine for you, Random Internet Poster #143029384 to think and conclude. That isn't the way medicine is practiced.
That isn't the way one organization suggests it's members practice, you mean.




Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
That does not seem to be a lie. How is this not a violation of the Goldwater rule for psychiatrists?
See above.
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th March 2018, 10:08 AM   #3642
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,352
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Remember how we were talking about "professional opinions" at first?

Do you think these are professional opinions?

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...ssism%22&btnG=

If there was a consensus among political psychologists that Trump is a narcissist, would you then say he is one outside of the colloquial use of the term?
I think that things like psychobiographies, forensic psych, political psychology, etc are all professional opinions as long as they are not presented as clinical diagnoses and state the limitations inherent in evaluating a subject from afar.

Clinical psych cannot be practiced on subjects who are not known to the practitioner. Don't conflate clinical psych with academic/research psych.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th March 2018, 10:29 AM   #3643
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,352
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Are you saying doctors don't use information informally gathered from non-medical sources to diagnose?
No, I'm saying they don't use unreliable information to diagnose.

Quote:
"Yeah, doc, he gripped his left arm, complained of shortness of breath and then fell over"

"Thank you, random passer by. As you appear to have no medical training whatsoever, I shall ignore your observations completely..."
That would be a first-hand witness to what happened. It can point in the direction of thinking but no competent doctor is going to jump to Heart Attack! without going through the differential, lab tests, etc. As SG said, the doc has to weigh the validity of the witness testimony with what the examination is showing him. Could have been a panic attack.

How does a doc weigh the validity of that story about Trump and Keith Richards? Why would an unverified story that may not even be true even enter into a psychiatric assessment? No, the doc needs to evaluate the patient in front of him with valid information; rumors and innuendo are not part of the diagnostic process.

Just put yourself in the subject's chair. If you were a famous person, the subject of gossip, yellow journalism, etc, how would you feel if your doc said, "I read an unauthorized biography about you that said you are having multiple affairs and you beat women. Is that true?" I, for one, would end my relationship with that doc because of patient-physician trust issues. Is the doc's image of me going to be colored by the crap people say about me? I think docs need to remain as neutral as possible about their patients and that kind of info introduces the potential for bias.

Now, I am NOT saying that a doc can't look at Trump's behavior on television and then evaluate what Trump tells him against that. But that's the key: the doc needs Trump in front of him to help determine whether the televised behavior is a reflection of a mental illness or just political pandering. IOW, as the APA points out, even abundant public domain information is not enough to base a clinical diagnosis on.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th March 2018, 10:49 AM   #3644
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,352
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
LOL NOW you mention the APA.
Maybe you are new to thread? I have been quoting and mentioning the APA since the beginning.
Quote:
I highlighted exactly your lies. You present as if the APA's guidelines are universal and unquestioned and apply to everyone in the country;
I have never presented it that way. But it's important to note that the vast majority of practicing clinical psychiatrists are members of the APA (similar for psychologists and their association) so it does apply to almost every practitioner in the country.

But beyond that, even for non-members, the APA's ethics and standards is the foundation of the profession. Who do you think designs the Psychiatry residency programs? Who wrote the DSM? Who carries out the research and establishes the standards of practice?

Put it this way: If a non-member psychiatrist decides, "I don't agree with the APA ethics rules against dating patients so I'm going to date this patient." Would you consider such behavior a good idea? Would you think, "He disagrees so it's OK?"

If a non-member decides, "I disagree with the APA standards of practice, so I'm going to incorporate Tarot card reading," do you think: "Hey they are non-members so they can do whatever they want!"

I don't think so. And neither do the State's Medical Boards/Commissions. When that doc decides to use Tarot cards and the patient complains and/or has a bad outcome they will be sanctioned by the board.

Quote:
the same exact line you've been saying since day one. So, yes, at this point, it's a lie to make even shorthand statements which imply something other than what is the truth ó even members of the APA itself disagree strongly with the so-called Goldwater Rule.
Yeah? Well I disagree with the laws against marijuana -am I not still bound by them if I get caught?
Quote:
I don't recall, but did you acknowledge that the APA changed the rule as of last year as well? Suddenly? Tightening it compared with when it was first written?
They didn't change the rule itself, they issued an Ethics Position to clarify what the rule mean.
Quote:
This will get ignored; I asked the exact same thing months ago.
And I've answered it many times in many forms. Happy to do it again:

Ethics and standards exist to keep the evaluation and diagnosis of mental illness as neutral and scientific as possible. When a practitioner "disagrees" with those ethics and standards, he practices in a way that has no support scientifically. It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that they do so due to bias and/or incompetence. In this case, the subject is an extremely divisive political leader. Therefore, the possibility of bias against Trump is very strong.

You wouldn't accept a psychiatric opinion derived from Tarot cards, so why would you accept one derived from unsupportable "remote diagnosis?"

Quote:
That isn't the way one organization suggests it's members practice, you mean.
Yes, exactly -THE organization which literally wrote the book on clinical assessment and diagnosis of mental illness.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th March 2018, 03:59 PM   #3645
Steve
Illuminator
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,939
The sanest man in the US proves it yet again:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post12210048
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th March 2018, 04:06 PM   #3646
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,090
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Presidents have gone out of their way to avoid calling a conflict "war" to get around having to get Congress' permission.
After 9/11, basically anything can be justified as "counter-terrorism".
And, as mentioned, since the US is technically still in conflict with North Korea, no permission to go to war would be necessary from Congress.
Yes... but none of them have ever done so without the support of both the military and intelligence communities.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th March 2018, 04:39 PM   #3647
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,090
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's more likely than not Trump lost his temper and was physically abusive with Ivana. It's more likely than not she withdrew her complaint to get a divorce settlement.
Based on what... other than your belief?
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th March 2018, 05:41 PM   #3648
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,047
There seems to be a correlation between how badly freaked out about Trump someone is, and how badly they misunderstand the presidency.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th March 2018, 12:30 AM   #3649
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,856
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Don't conflate clinical psych with academic/research psych.
And again, I realize and have said previously more than once that the professional opinion formed from afar is not a formal diagnoses.

Remember this?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=3409

Originally Posted by me
They can have a professional opinion, but it's just not a formal diagnosis. I think you're mixing the two up.
And your response to that was...

Originally Posted by you
Not really. In this case the opinion in question IS a diagnosis. But really, how can they have any professional opinion at all if they haven’t followed professional standards and ethics?
We're going in circles here.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.

Last edited by kellyb; 9th March 2018 at 12:32 AM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th March 2018, 01:34 PM   #3650
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,090
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
We're going in circles here.
I think that might be the single most accurate statement in the whole thread.

We're ALL going in circles. I don't think there is a way out.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th March 2018, 02:13 PM   #3651
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 25,713
Mod InfoThe discussion of the legalities/practicalities of a President's order to use nuclear weapons has been split to this thread. Please bring such discussion there, even if some post on that matter has been left in this thread. Thank you.
Posted By:Loss Leader
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th March 2018, 02:20 PM   #3652
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,148
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Mod InfoThe discussion of the legalities/practicalities of a President's order to use nuclear weapons has been split to this thread. Please bring such discussion there, even if some post on that matter has been left in this thread. Thank you.
Posted By:Loss Leader
Thank you Loss Leader!
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th March 2018, 02:35 PM   #3653
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 18,737
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
On what grounds? What law, military or otherwise? Can the CiC be declared unfit by someone in the military? (Surely not, since that would be a mockery of the civilian rule of the military principle. )



Right, anecdote is better than the testimony of experts. Good for you.

You accuse others, not without reason, of hysteria, but your Panglossian view is no better.

ETA: this discussion should be split to a new thread. Can someone please report? I don't know how via tapatalk.
Highlighted part - Done

I would also say that it's not hysterical to point out that Trump's behaviour is highly abnormal and to argue that should be sufficient to raise serious questions about his mental health.

It's also hard to accept assertions that without an interview, it's impossible to diagnose mental-health conditions which exhibit extreme* behaviours. It might be better to have an interview, but that's not the same as saying it's indispensable.

Given the above, it's not hysterical to point out if psychological experts state that Trump's behaviour fits with particular conditions, and that, in the absence of his cooperation in testing his mental health thus allowing the refutation of this hypothesis, such conditions would would tend to lead to specific dangerous and "surprising" behaviour under particular conditions.



*I am not saying that Trump's behaviour is necessarily *that* extreme.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th March 2018, 11:57 PM   #3654
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 12,794
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Fine. Now produce evidence that he has used "people" to carry out violence for him.
Ok.
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th March 2018, 03:10 AM   #3655
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,613
Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Ok.
Which makes this example fairly innocent in comparison.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2018, 09:10 PM   #3656
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,392
Just be honest and admit it. You all know the bastard is crazy.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2018, 09:13 PM   #3657
Steve
Illuminator
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,939
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Just be honest and admit it. You all know the bastard is crazy.
Yep. Everyone here knows that. The argument seems to be that only psychiatrists are not allowed to say so.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2018, 10:01 PM   #3658
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,148
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Yep. Everyone here knows that. The argument seems to be that only psychiatrists are not allowed to say so.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:28 AM   #3659
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,644
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I think that might be the single most accurate statement in the whole thread.

We're ALL going in circles. I don't think there is a way out.

Sure there is. Each party just needs to state what evidence they would accept from the other to convince them.

Anyone examining the issue and deciding there's nothing that would convince them needs to work out if they're being logical or ideological.
__________________
Up the River!
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 12:41 PM   #3660
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 14,698
My apologies: I have read much of, but not all of this thread (because of its length and it does go in circles from time to time). I only want one point clarified for my own benefit: is any one here still maintaining that Trump is not crazy? Or are we only arguing if we have formal proof and/or if a mental health expert can professionally offer an opinion? Because in my view it was called perfectly upthread: "We all know he is crazy."
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 12:49 PM   #3661
Steve
Illuminator
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,939
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
My apologies: I have read much of, but not all of this thread (because of its length and it does go in circles from time to time). I only want one point clarified for my own benefit: is any one here still maintaining that Trump is not crazy? Or are we only arguing if we have formal proof and/or if a mental health expert can professionally offer an opinion? Because in my view it was called perfectly upthread: "We all know he is crazy."
I think you have nailed it.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:13 PM   #3662
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,352
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
My apologies: I have read much of, but not all of this thread (because of its length and it does go in circles from time to time). I only want one point clarified for my own benefit: is any one here still maintaining that Trump is not crazy? Or are we only arguing if we have formal proof and/or if a mental health expert can professionally offer an opinion? Because in my view it was called perfectly upthread: "We all know he is crazy."


I think Trump is crazy but only in a colloquial sense: I donít understand his behavior and it makes no sense to me; therefore, itís crazy.

But that isnít the issue; Iím a layman with an opinion and thatís all. We can all observe his behavior and come to our own unprofessional conclusions. My beef is with professionals issuing a professional opinion without following the guidelines of their profession. That is not something a society should be encouraging because of the possibility of abuse/bias.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 03:15 PM   #3663
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 18,737
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think Trump is crazy but only in a colloquial sense: I donít understand his behavior and it makes no sense to me; therefore, itís crazy.

But that isnít the issue; Iím a layman with an opinion and thatís all. We can all observe his behavior and come to our own unprofessional conclusions. My beef is with professionals issuing a professional opinion without following the guidelines of their profession. That is not something a society should be encouraging because of the possibility of abuse/bias.
Why "only in a colloquial sense"? What is your reasoning?

You seem to be arguing a question of fact with a discussion about what should happen in an ideal world.

Paraphrase - I'm stuck without my lap for now whilst it's
battery gets replaced under warranty... Apologies for only simple bbcode.

I don't think that he's mentally ill - professionals shouldn't say that they think he is because I don't think that is ethical
The second half of the above is completely independent from the first.
His behavior is highly abnormal but in many ways quite predictable. He will not accept any comparison where he is less than the best in anything, for example.

Why reject the idea that an expert could say that such behaviours are red flags and usually indicate a particular range of mental illnesses which are dangerous in people with positions of responsibility?
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 03:27 PM   #3664
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 18,429
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think Trump is crazy but only in a colloquial sense: I don’t understand his behavior and it makes no sense to me; therefore, it’s crazy.

But that isn’t the issue; I’m a layman with an opinion and that’s all. We can all observe his behavior and come to our own unprofessional conclusions. My beef is with professionals issuing a professional opinion without following the guidelines of their profession. That is not something a society should be encouraging because of the possibility of abuse/bias.
Your explanation of your view is fair enough for me.
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles

Last edited by LSSBB; 15th March 2018 at 03:28 PM.
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 05:21 PM   #3665
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think Trump is crazy but only in a colloquial sense: I donít understand his behavior and it makes no sense to me; therefore, itís crazy.

But that isnít the issue; Iím a layman with an opinion and thatís all. We can all observe his behavior and come to our own unprofessional conclusions. My beef is with professionals issuing a professional opinion without following the guidelines of their profession. That is not something a society should be encouraging because of the possibility of abuse/bias.
This.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 06:14 PM   #3666
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 45,767
eta; deleted, on second thoughts this mess has gone on far enough.
__________________
One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

Last edited by TragicMonkey; 15th March 2018 at 06:29 PM.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 07:11 PM   #3667
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,148
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think Trump is crazy but only in a colloquial sense: I donít understand his behavior and it makes no sense to me; therefore, itís crazy....
So now you are asserting what basis the rest of us are drawing our conclusions on?
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2018, 06:47 AM   #3668
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,352
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So now you are asserting what basis the rest of us are drawing our conclusions on?
Yeah, whatís the problem with that? None of us are mental health professionals. Opinions are like -uh- pieholes; everyone has one. Yours is no more valid than mine. They are subjective and may or may not reflect reality.

Mental health professional opinions are supposed to be different. They are supposed to be reached dispassionately using standards within an ethical framework so that they can be as accurate and objective as possible. They carry a weight that my opinion does not. When they make a diagnosis, we are supposed to take it seriously. This kind of non-standard unethical Ďpracticeď undermines that respect.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2018, 07:00 AM   #3669
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,644
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
When they make a diagnosis, we are supposed to take it seriously. This kind of non-standard unethical Ďpracticeď undermines that respect.
Has there been an actual, formal, diagnosis made? I missed that. I thought there were just noises of concern and speculation.
__________________
Up the River!
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2018, 11:28 AM   #3670
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,504
It gets worse:
Quote:
A dozen people close to Mr. Trump or the White House, including current and former aides and longtime friends, described him as newly emboldened to say what he really feels and to ignore the cautions of those around him.

That self-confidence has led to a series of surprising comments and actions that have pushed the Trump presidency in an ever more tumultuous direction.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/18/u...T.nav=top-news
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2018, 03:28 PM   #3671
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,352
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Has there been an actual, formal, diagnosis made? I missed that. I thought there were just noises of concern and speculation.
Yes. John Gartner, PhD:
Quote:
We have an ethical responsibility to warn the public about Donald Trump's dangerous mental illness.
That is a statement that he definitively has a dangerous mental illness, even if he didn't specifically name it. In another piece by him he does specifically name it:

Quote:
Much has been written about Trump having narcissistic personality disorder. As critics have pointed out, merely saying a leader is narcissistic is hardly disqualifying. But malignant narcissism is like a malignant tumor: toxic.

Psychoanalyst and Holocaust survivor Erich Fromm, who invented the diagnosis of malignant narcissism, argues that it ďlies on the borderline between sanity and insanity.Ē Otto Kernberg, a psychoanalyst specializing in borderline personalities, defined malignant narcissism as having four components: narcissism, paranoia, antisocial personality and sadism. Trump exhibits all four.
Their petition specifically says:
Quote:
We, the undersigned mental health professionals (please state your degree), believe in our professional judgment that Donald Trump manifests a serious mental illness that renders him psychologically incapable of competently discharging the duties of President of the United States.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2018, 08:17 PM   #3672
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,856
For some reason, I have a feeling that if Obama was currently POTUS and was ranting about hearing voices whilst donning a dashiki and an Indian headdress, the people currently saying "Well, I'm not even entitled to an opinion, and those who are entitled to one are forbidden from stating theirs, so ha!" would be talking about what a Biden presidency will be like instead.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2018, 06:01 AM   #3673
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,392
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think Trump is crazy but only in a colloquial sense: I donít understand his behavior and it makes no sense to me; therefore, itís crazy.

But that isnít the issue; Iím a layman with an opinion and thatís all. We can all observe his behavior and come to our own unprofessional conclusions. My beef is with professionals issuing a professional opinion without following the guidelines of their profession. That is not something a society should be encouraging because of the possibility of abuse/bias.
I took psych 101.

First lesson: we are all psychologists, have been since childhood.

Psychology is as intrinsically human as speech.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2018, 07:02 AM   #3674
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,047
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
I took psych 101.

First lesson: we are all psychologists, have been since childhood.

Psychology is as intrinsically human as speech.
That does sound like the kind of lies to children thing that would be taught in an introductory class on the topic.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2018, 07:05 AM   #3675
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,392
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That does sound like the kind of lies to children thing that would be taught in an introductory class on the topic.
OK, I guess maybe you're an outlier who lacks natural talent for psychology.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2018, 07:05 AM   #3676
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,047
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
For some reason, I have a feeling that if Obama was currently POTUS and was ranting about hearing voices whilst donning a dashiki and an Indian headdress, the people currently saying "Well, I'm not even entitled to an opinion, and those who are entitled to one are forbidden from stating theirs, so ha!" would be talking about what a Biden presidency will be like instead.
Why? Even xjx agrees that Trump acts crazy.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2018, 07:17 AM   #3677
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 10,339
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
For some reason, I have a feeling that if Obama was currently POTUS and was ranting about hearing voices whilst donning a dashiki and an Indian headdress, the people currently saying "Well, I'm not even entitled to an opinion, and those who are entitled to one are forbidden from stating theirs, so ha!" would be talking about what a Biden presidency will be like instead.
Not me. I loathe Trump. I think he's unfit for office, informally speaking. I am ashamed that he was elected.

I thought Obama was weak in some ways, not a great president, but some of that was due to Republican obstructionism. Obama is more or less a decent man.

None of this excuses psychiatrists who neglect the standards of their practice in publicly diagnosing a man they've not met.

Far as I can tell, xjx's opinion is similar.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2018, 08:52 AM   #3678
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,856
"I think he's unfit for office, informally speaking...None of this excuses psychiatrists who neglect the standards of their practice in publicly diagnosing a man they've not met." is the exact same thing as saying "I'm not even entitled to a professional opinion, and those who are entitled to one are forbidden from stating theirs, so there!"
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2018, 09:17 AM   #3679
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,090
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
"I think he's unfit for office, informally speaking...None of this excuses psychiatrists who neglect the standards of their practice in publicly diagnosing a man they've not met." is the exact same thing as saying "I'm not even entitled to a professional opinion, and those who are entitled to one are forbidden from stating theirs, so there!" without following the appropriate processes and procedures required to form an objective medical opinion
That fix is the crux of the matter.

Look, let's remove Trump from the discussion here. Let's talk about... Tom Cruise. He's a public figure, and there's a lot of publicly available information on him - interviews, performances, appearances, etc. He's also a sceintologist.

Now, having seen his bizarre behavior on occassion, most of us would feel comfortable saying "that man is a bit nuts"... we might even go so far as to say he's totally bonkers and shouldn't be trusted around children or something similar. You'll probably not get a lot of disagreement there.

Now, however, imagine that a professional psychologist, Dr. Bob, goes on record claiming that Cruise has a severe mental disorder and is a danger. Furthermore, they proceed to say publicly that Cruise suffers from severe antisocial personality disorder.

Dr. Bob, however, has never met Cruise, nor has he talked to him personally, nor interacted with him in any fashion. Dr. Bob is basing his public diagnosis on what he's seen of Cruise on TV. Dr. Bob hasn't even tried to rule out conflating factors, or investigated whether there is a confounding factor or alternative diagnosis possible... be Dr. Bob has never treated Cruise.

I would be quite dissatisfied with Dr. Bob's behavior here. He's basing his public diagnosis of a severe mental disorder on media reports. He hasn't followed the appropriate protocol for his profession. It is unethical behavior. And there's a world of difference between a layman saying "that guy's nutso" and a professional in the field diagnosis him as having antisocial personality disorder.

A layman's opinion carries no authority. A professional's opinion carries the implied authority of their profession and their integrity. The professional making the public statement of mental illness is appealing to their own authority to lend credence to their diagnosis... even though without the appropriate procedures, there is no credence to be had. To make matters worse, there is significant social stigma attached to mental health disorders in the US, and that stigma is subject to manipulation in order to destroy any credibility and trust in the figure to which it is associated. It's well-poisoning of a massive magnitude.

And that is a problem for me, regardless of how colloquially "nuts" the target may seem.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2018, 09:31 AM   #3680
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,352
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
"I think he's unfit for office, informally speaking...None of this excuses psychiatrists who neglect the standards of their practice in publicly diagnosing a man they've not met." is the exact same thing as saying "I'm not even entitled to a professional opinion, and those who are entitled to one are forbidden from stating theirs, so there!"
But that isn't want you said before. You said, "Well, I'm not even entitled to an opinion . . ." Adding "professional" changes what you said dramatically and makes it 100% correct; that is exactly the situation.

I don't see the problem with this amended version of your statement. I am not a professional so my opinions about his mental state are irrelevant and dismissible; no one is going to take my statement and say, "xjx388 said it so it's very likely to be correct!" However, we are supposed to listen and take heed when a doctor gives their professional opinion because they are supposed to be following accepted standards when they render it. People are taking these professionals' opinions seriously.
__________________
Hello.

Last edited by xjx388; 20th March 2018 at 09:33 AM.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:31 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.