ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags atheism , theism

Reply
Old 28th December 2017, 11:17 AM   #121
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,459
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
But when you foist your faith and beliefs on others, or try to persuade others that there is a god, then you had better have evidence to back up your position if you don't want to be laughed off the stage.

I wonder why you and Fudbucker are even posting in this thread at all. The subject of the thread is

"Is your atheism predominately a science success or a theism fail?"

You are both obviously rampant god-botherers, so the question ynot has posed isn't even directed at you, and is one you cannot possibly answer.
How else are they going to get attention?
__________________
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
----------------------------------------------
Proud woo denier
----------------------------------------------
ďThat which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.Ē -Christopher Hitchens-
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 11:19 AM   #122
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 24,152
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
A friendly reminder. . .

The creator of a new thread does not get to declare who is welcome to comment in threads.

Thanks a bunch for making note of it.
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
But when you foist your faith and beliefs on others, or try to persuade others that there is a god, then you had better have evidence to back up your position if you don't want to be laughed off the stage.

I wonder why you and Fudbucker are even posting in this thread at all. The subject of the thread is

"Is your atheism predominately a science success or a theism fail?"

You are both obviously rampant god-botherers, so the question ynot has posed isn't even directed at you, and is one you cannot possibly answer.
While I certainly can understand the desire for a safe space for atheists to atheist, that is absolutely not how thing work around here.
__________________
Under these circumstances, we did not have confidence that Strzokís decision to prioritize the Russia investigation over following up on the Midyear
-related investigative lead discovered on the Weiner laptop was free from bias.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 11:27 AM   #123
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,683
Theists don’t seem to realise that the contest isn’t theism v science or theism v atheism, it’s simply theism v credibility.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 28th December 2017 at 11:37 AM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 11:32 AM   #124
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,305
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wait a minute, you delieberately deleted part of a sentence to make some kind of position statement. That is amazing.

Here was the whole sentence "There is no requirement that love, hope, beauty, empathy, good taste, hell political beliefs have evidence or verification."

You deleted part of it, THEN you slapped down a link to a tome without ever trying to explain what it meant, and now you are complaining that I have misrepresented your point which was based on you having deliberately deleted part of my sentence? Wow.

Seems like someone is getting hoisted by one's own petard.....
I deleted part of the sentence because my criticism did not apply to everything you said. Of course political beliefs are beliefs. The other things you listed are not. If you don't actually bother reading what I wrote, that's your problem, not mine.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 11:37 AM   #125
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 24,152
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I deleted part of the sentence because my criticism did not apply to everything you said. Of course political beliefs are beliefs. The other things you listed are not. If you don't actually bother reading what I wrote, that's your problem, not mine.
Your "criticism" was utterly specious as not only did it deliberately delete language, it ignored the entire context.

By the way, "If you don't actually bother reading what I wrote, that's your problem, not mine."

Yeah, deliberately deleting things I wrote is not something you "wrote" which is of course your problem not mine.
__________________
Under these circumstances, we did not have confidence that Strzokís decision to prioritize the Russia investigation over following up on the Midyear
-related investigative lead discovered on the Weiner laptop was free from bias.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 11:40 AM   #126
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 24,152
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Theists donít seem to realise that the contest isnít theism v science or theism v atheism, itís simply theism v credibility.
Say, progress! The hilighted part was literally my point!

Progress!
__________________
Under these circumstances, we did not have confidence that Strzokís decision to prioritize the Russia investigation over following up on the Midyear
-related investigative lead discovered on the Weiner laptop was free from bias.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 11:41 AM   #127
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,588
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
While I certainly can understand the desire for a safe space for atheists to atheist, that is absolutely not how thing work around here.
Well, if you're off-topic, then yeah, that's exactly how it works around here.

I can see how a non-atheist could contribute to this thread, but so far, it hasn't happened; just a bunch of off-topic nonsense.

And speaking of which, my atheism was exactly a 'theism fail.' I was a nominal believer for most of my life, but during a chronic medical crisis, I started to do a lot of soul-searching (as it were) and serious asking of questions; I was raised Lutheran but I had also started reading a bunch of Catholic material as well and... it all failed. No answers were forthcoming, no god/God/GOD/gods spoke up; no nothing.

Been quite a bit happier ever since.
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 11:51 AM   #128
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,683
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Theists donít seem to realise that the contest isnít theism v science or theism v atheism, itís simply theism v credibility.
A recognition of that point would be real progress.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 11:55 AM   #129
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 24,152
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Well, if you're off-topic, then yeah, that's exactly how it works around here.
Declaring that part of the community is not not permitted to comment and to point out things like:

The headline is a false dichotomy; science and theism are not mutually exclusive, etc

all of which are on topic and quintessence of critical thinking
__________________
Under these circumstances, we did not have confidence that Strzokís decision to prioritize the Russia investigation over following up on the Midyear
-related investigative lead discovered on the Weiner laptop was free from bias.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 12:27 PM   #130
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 7,988
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
This reminds me of one of my favorites, which was supposedly said by a young child, when asked what ' faith ' was ..

The child reportedly said: " Faith, is when you believe in something, you know to be untrue. "
My personal version is, "Faith is what clergy invoke when you ask difficult questions."
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 12:38 PM   #131
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 15,059
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
.... Almost like they never learn.
Almost ?
__________________
" What if the Hokey Pokey is what it's all about? "

Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join Team 13232 !
Skeptical Greg is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 12:51 PM   #132
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,683
Originally Posted by CORed View Post
My personal version is, "Faith is what clergy invoke when you ask difficult questions."
"Difficult"?

Inconvenient perhaps?
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 01:15 PM   #133
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,588
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Declaring that part of the community is not not permitted to comment and to point out things like:

The headline is a false dichotomy; science and theism are not mutually exclusive, etc

all of which are on topic and quintessence of critical thinking
As always, it's ultimately left to the mods to decide what is considered on-topic, so I guess we'll just see in this case.
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 01:26 PM   #134
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,688
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh dear....

By the way, anyone else note that our correspondents are not actually weighing in on the topic at hand: that beliefs require evidence and verification

Firstly you are using the argument that "others are doing this wrong thing so I can too", which is the poorest of justifications.

Secondly you are deliberately misrepresenting the "topic at hand". One part of the topic at hand is the issue of theism v credibility as ynot has patiently pointed out. Theism can fail in a spectacular way without evidence challenging beliefs. Theism fails when the beliefs just defy common sense and to put it bluntly are just plain stupid.

We need look no further than the flood story as an example here. An all powerful god, who can't manage a more elegant way to get rid of the bad guys, than to drown women and children as well as animals to accomplish it. You do not need evidence that this did not happen, (although such evidence abounds), to show it is just plain stupid and thus a "theism fail".
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 02:13 PM   #135
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,683
In the wacky world of theism, where belief and faith in non-credible magic and miracles rule supreme, credibility has no credibility. Beyond that it’s all fingers in ears and “La, la, la, la”.

Not only does theism have no need or interest in being credible, being “INCREDIBLE!” (aka non-credible) is the very allure of theism that induces some people to choose to become theists.

No amount of credible argument/evidence will have any effect on theists unless and until they choose to give credibility back at least some credibility.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 28th December 2017 at 02:51 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 02:29 PM   #136
Imhotep
Muse
 
Imhotep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 664
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Theists often defend their god beliefs by attacking science with silly comments like - “Science doesn’t know everything, Science isn’t always right, Science can’t explain love”, etc. My response is usually - “So what? I’m an atheist mainly because theism has failed to convince me any god exists. Take away science and I would still be an atheist. Don’t blame science for the failure of theism”.

As I’ve never had a god belief (or any paranormal belief) I’m wondering if others are atheists predominately because of the success of science or the failure of theism.
Mine's a theism fail also. At age five or six, Sunday School.

We were talking about Heaven, and I asked "Where is heaven? Up in the sky?" while pointing upwards and sounding skeptical. The teacher kind of froze up. Later, my parents told me church was optional. I opted out...
Imhotep is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 03:26 PM   #137
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,739
To make this on-topic, I would say my rejection of strong-atheism is predominately due to science's failure to explain something as simple as the causal mechanism for conscious experience. Perhaps a model of reality that is more metaphysical is called for.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 03:38 PM   #138
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,683
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
To make this on-topic, I would say my rejection of strong-atheism is predominately due to science's failure to explain something as simple as the causal mechanism for conscious experience. Perhaps a model of reality that is more metaphysical is called for.
Great stuff! You will remember to post the metaphysical explanation of something as simple as the causal mechanism for conscious experience when you find it I hope. (I won't be holding my breath). In the meantime, please post just one thing that metaphysical explains better than physical.

I'm happy if theists respond to the following sub-heading if they want to . . .

Is your theism predominately a metaphysical success or a science fail?

I put Fudbucker down as a "science fail".
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 28th December 2017 at 03:49 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 03:45 PM   #139
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,688
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
To make this on-topic, I would say my rejection of strong-atheism is predominately due to science's failure to explain something as simple as the causal mechanism for conscious experience. Perhaps a model of reality that is more metaphysical is called for.

Ah yes, the same old "God did it" argument thinly disguised.

You may not appreciate it Fudbucker, but some of us are comfortable with just saying "we don't know" at the present time, but hopeful that an explanation my be forthcoming in the future.

To fall back on the assumption that a metaphysical cause is a solution, and then dress that metaphysical explanation with a few frills and tinsel, doesn't get us anywhere.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 04:07 PM   #140
Belgian thought
Graduate Poster
 
Belgian thought's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,752
I did not need science when I was five, when I did not believe in my parent's god.

I had no concept of science but only my constant questioning.

I remember dissing Easter in the toilet to a school mate when about I was about 6, only for it to be reported to the nuns. It was a strict catholic school.

In my teens, I sat, and jumped over both sides of the fence - I put this down to hormones.

Post teens, I found my side of the fence with science backing up my 5 year old reasoning.
__________________
... er, that's it

Last edited by Belgian thought; 28th December 2017 at 04:10 PM.
Belgian thought is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 04:21 PM   #141
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 8,225
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really don't get this. We may never be able to give ourselves a good explanation for consciousness. I grant you that. Nevertheless, I think it is wrong to explain a mystery with another mystery.
Yep. Just becasue science cannot explain consciousness does not automatically mean that the god-squad can.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 05:00 PM   #142
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 8,225
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yes, it is true that everything that is proven was at one time unproven..
And throughout history, ALL those unproven things that were later proven, were proven by science or mathematics or logic, and by testing an retesting and experimentation and anlysis, and all without the help of, or the invocation of magic, invisible sky deities.

Not one unproven thing in the history of man has ever been proven because "goddidit"
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 05:02 PM   #143
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,679
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
It's not about theism v materialism.

It's not about theism v science.

It's not about theism v atheism.

It's ONLY about theism v credibility.
And theism has no credibility. Just beliefs. Unprovable beliefs in giant quantities!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 05:28 PM   #144
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,683
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
And theism has no credibility. Just beliefs. Unprovable beliefs in giant quantities!!!
Credibility is the last thing theism wants . . . . . .
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
In the wacky world of theism, where belief and faith in non-credible magic and miracles rule supreme, credibility has no credibility. Beyond that it’s all fingers in ears and “La, la, la, la”.

Not only does theism have no need or interest in being credible, being “INCREDIBLE!” (aka non-credible) is the very allure of theism that induces some people to choose to become theists.

No amount of credible argument/evidence will have any effect on theists unless and until they choose to give credibility back at least some credibility.
If you’re not confined by credibility you can have whatever you want – No death, eternal bliss, no pain or suffering, and you get to see all your dead (but not really dead) loved ones again. Who wouldn’t want all that for the mere cost of abandoning all credibility?
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 28th December 2017 at 05:46 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 06:11 PM   #145
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,305
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
To make this on-topic, I would say my rejection of strong-atheism is predominately due to science's failure to explain something as simple as the causal mechanism for conscious experience. Perhaps a model of reality that is more metaphysical is called for.
This is getting absurd. Show me where you disagree with the following:

1. For any given philosophy, if it does not explain a causal mechanism for conscious experience, then it can be reasonably rejected.
2. Theism does not explain a causal mechanism for conscious experience.
3. Therefore, theism can be reasonably rejected.

1, 2, or 3? Which one is false? Choose carefully.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 06:38 PM   #146
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 17,213
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And throughout history, ALL those unproven things that were later proven, were proven by science or mathematics or logic, and by testing an retesting and experimentation and anlysis, and all without the help of, or the invocation of magic, invisible sky deities.

Not one unproven thing in the history of man has ever been proven because "goddidit"
And yet, still for many people, this is their go to answer. Makes you wonder why they bother.
__________________
ď A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. Ē
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 07:49 PM   #147
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 7,114
I never experienced a theism fail, except for the one glitch: If you picked the wrong religion you were going to burn in Hell forever. I didn't think God would do that to ancient people born before Jesus, or people who grew up in China and had never even heard of Jesus, and I never found a satisfactory answer.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 10:45 PM   #148
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,683
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I never experienced a theism fail, except for the one glitch: If you picked the wrong religion you were going to burn in Hell forever.
Given the number of possible religions to choose from chances are you have the wrong one. This means you ARE going to burn in Hell forever. And you're happy to diminish that horrific consequence to a mere a ďglitchĒ?

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I didn't think God would do that to ancient people born before Jesus, or people who grew up in China and had never even heard of Jesus, and I never found a satisfactory answer.
ďGod works in mysterious waysĒ seems to allow theists to hand-wave all this way.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 01:00 PM   #149
stevea
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,053
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Theists often defend their god beliefs by attacking science with silly comments like - ďScience doesnít know everything, Science isnít always right, Science canít explain loveĒ, etc. My response is usually - ďSo what? Iím an atheist mainly because theism has failed to convince me any god exists. Take away science and I would still be an atheist. Donít blame science for the failure of theismĒ.

As Iíve never had a god belief (or any paranormal belief) Iím wondering if others are atheists predominately because of the success of science or the failure of theism.
I think this is an important distinction. TBD-

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Rejecting the claims of theism requires such a low level of critical thinking I don't think I would call it "science". I rejected theism at a very young age.
'Critical thought' and science are distinct, but I doubt that many adherent's of either "get it". Critical thought is reason & logic, but science is an adherence to a (particularly effective and pragmatic) 'religion'. The fact that 'Ocham's Razor', repeated tests for accuracy , rejection of theories that fail to cohere to all facts - is a decent heuristic to construct a pragmatic MODEL of reality isn't "proof" of anything. It happens to work well in a lot of cases - there is no evidence the model of reality is anything like 'reality' except for observational coherence n the past.

*Common* theistic religions have anthropomorphic gods (even those gods who care especially abt humans) and this suggests (doesn't prove) they are a product of human emotional projections. We can give a 99.94% doubt to any religion's gods' that even are even exceptionally aware of humanity (which is NOT the same as entire dismissal-ism).

For these and for more ethereal, abstract & uncaring 'gods' - the lack of evidence is the primary point of 'fail'. Did "The Force" create the universe as we know it"? We simple NEVER accept such theories, nor that fairies inhabit the local caves & ponds, w/o significant evidence of existence. That isn't "science", tho' it is a theory of evidence based thinking - empiricism - and restriction of extraneous suppositions - that shares a common basis. We can't PROVE that our senses are accurate or reliable (see Hume) so we have limited reason to believe what we can see and no/zero basis to believe that which lacks all sensory evidence.

It's reasonable to consider things for which empirical evidence exists, but not to consider all the myriad things for which zero evidence exists (tho' these *might* exist).


Originally Posted by ynot View Post
In the wacky world of theism, where belief and faith in non-credible magic and miracles rule supreme, credibility has no credibility. Beyond that itís all fingers in ears and ďLa, la, la, laĒ.
LOL - excellent description.

Quote:
Not only does theism have no need or interest in being credible, being ďINCREDIBLE!Ē (aka non-credible) is the very allure of theism that induces some people to choose to become theists.

No amount of credible argument/evidence will have any effect on theists unless and until they choose to give credibility back at least some credibility.
And there is the rub" dear 'ynot'. We live on a planet filled to the 7bln with illogical primates. I've been trying to adopt/adapt classical stoicism' to the task of dealing with this, but it leaves one with a rather cynical view of the less virtuous.(in the older sense of the term - virtue).
stevea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 01:07 PM   #150
Senex
Philosopher
 
Senex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,509
Do dinosaurs go to heaven?

This logical oddity hit me. If you believe in both evolution and heaven you must either believe all living things have an opportunity to enter heaven or god picked an arbitrary moment in human evolution to bless/curse humans with the ability to have afterlife in heaven or hell.

What about my golden retrievers?
Senex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 01:20 PM   #151
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,688
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
This logical oddity hit me. If you believe in both evolution and heaven you must either believe all living things have an opportunity to enter heaven or god picked an arbitrary moment in human evolution to bless/curse humans with the ability to have afterlife in heaven or hell.

What about my golden retrievers?

They are a shoe in. The quote Ami Perdue:

Out of the Earth we come, and back go we,
As does the Turnip; so it seems to me
The Pumkin as our distant relative
Has equal claim to Immortality.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.

Last edited by Thor 2; 29th December 2017 at 01:25 PM.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 01:24 PM   #152
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,688
Originally Posted by stevea View Post
I think this is an important distinction. TBD-



'Critical thought' and science are distinct, but I doubt that many adherent's of either "get it". Critical thought is reason & logic, but science is an adherence to a (particularly effective and pragmatic) 'religion'.

.......




To call science a "religion" is nonsense.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 01:31 PM   #153
Senex
Philosopher
 
Senex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,509
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
They are a shoe in. The quote Ami Perdue:

Out of the Earth we come, and back go we,
As does the Turnip; so it seems to me
The Pumkin as our distant relative
Has equal claim to Immortality.
Does immortality mean having some physical residue when the universe is cold and dead?
Senex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 01:55 PM   #154
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Moderator
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 12,480
Mod Warning This thread seems to have strayed from the original topic; I am therefore going to close it temporarily so that I or another mod can do a clean-up.

It will be reopened in the fullness of time - until it is, please do not attempt to continue the discussion elsewhere. Thank you.
Posted By:Agatha
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 03:26 PM   #155
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Moderator
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 12,480
Mod Warning I have reopened the thread, and the derail into the model(s) of consciousness has been split to another thread. When splitting threads, it is often the case (given that our weapon is more of a machete than a scalpel) that some posts which should have been moved were not, and/or some posts were moved which should not have been. Please report any such posts so that they can be dealt with.
Posted By:Agatha
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 07:26 PM   #156
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,679
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
To call science a "religion" is nonsense.
As would be calling religion scientific!!!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 07:59 PM   #157
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,683
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
As would be calling religion scientific!!!!!
Very true.

The split thread is just about longer than this one.

Had to open 15 Moved Post PM's.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 29th December 2017 at 08:06 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 02:50 PM   #158
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 8,225
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Very true.

The split thread is just about longer than this one.

Had to open 15 Moved Post PM's.
I wouldn't have bothered. Just checkbox "Messages 15" at the head of the list, scroll down to the bottom of the page, and delete them.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.

Last edited by smartcooky; 30th December 2017 at 02:52 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 03:02 PM   #159
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,683
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I wouldn't have bothered. Just checkbox "Messages 15" at the head of the list, scroll down to the bottom of the page, and delete them.
DOH! . . . Thanks for the obvious.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2017, 04:59 PM   #160
Hercules Rockefeller
Woof!
 
Hercules Rockefeller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,067
I don't quite know what came first, because I've always liked science and always found bible stuff insanely boring. Norse mythology was way cooler, but I never believed in it. I grew up in a household where religion was never discussed or an issue. By the time I was asked these questions, I felt no need, nor found any compelling reason to embrace religion. Today I feel like believing in a creator, is like trying to understand the Big Bang without knowing any physical laws.
__________________
Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra
Hercules Rockefeller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:31 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.