ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags atheism , theism

Reply
Old 9th February 2018, 03:10 PM   #281
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,430
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I know plenty of people who are "religious" solely for the social contact. They couldn't tell you -- or probably care less -- what their church taught on any particular subject beyond common-knowledge Christianity. For them it's just the Sunday morning coffee klatch. And that's absolutely fine with me, since those are the people who seem least likely to do anything to which others might object.

However if, like me, you live in a state dominated by a particular religious sect, that sense of community has a dark side. Mormons express a tremendous sense of community, much of which has positive outcomes. But it's such a proportionally large community that non-Mormons easily feel like second-class citizens.

That's merely a social consequence, but here the community leaks over into things like employment, housing, social services, etc. that really need to be free from interference. At places I've worked, it's not uncommon to see employees at various levels of the company talking openly about church activities, participation, etc. to the extent you suspect that work and church are really just facets of the same community. This makes it hard to have confidence in employment-related decisions -- hiring, firing, promotions, etc. Though not universal, it happens often enough that firms would rather hire, and landlords would rather rent to, people "from within the faith." And while that's illegal, it's easy to get away with. And with our legislature currently in session, most relevant conversations revolve around what the Mormon church is going to say about each bill, which has historically correlated with whether the bill passes. There is widespread suspicion that some state legislators simply do what their church leaders say, though that's denied from both directions.. But it sure doesn't help that the capitol building is just a couple blocks away from Mormon HQ.

That's my particular experience living in a highly religious area. I've heard similar stories from other places in the U.S. where religion is dominant for social and community reasons as well. I wouldn't say this is the same everywhere I've lived.

My atheism comes from simply not believing in the religion. The religion doesn't have to "fail" per se in any colossal or embarrassing way for me to arrive at that decision. But in my case, where religion often flexes its muscles in ways I find inappropriate, I become a more active atheist. Which is to say, I oppose the inappropriate intrusion of religion, not for what is believed, but for what is done. You could probably chalk that up as a "theism fail," but I think it has more to do with ordinary community behavior. People can act like jerks without it being related to a belief in God.

The success of science doesn't really affect my atheism. I work with dozens upon dozens of scientists and other scientifically-minded people who are also active Mormons (and not jerks about it). Their theistic beliefs don't affect, or seem affected by, their ability to be good scientists. Granted the science we do doesn't really get into places where science and Mormonism would clash. But I think one's adoption of science and a scientific mode of thinking doesn't really necessitate some particular theistic or atheistic belief.
Utah really is in a league of its own when it comes to the church's influence on business and politics and it's cultural influence of non members of the church. I've heard your complaints from other people I know who lived in Utah. Another atheist I know who was a former LDS adherent also told me similar things. He left the church because although he was raised in the church and weakly believed it, he didn't believe it enough to go on a mission and sell it to others. The impression I got from him, it was do his mission or leave the church. Maybe that's an exaggeration...but I got the feeling there was a lot of pressure.
__________________
ď A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. Ē
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2018, 03:31 PM   #282
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 23,170
bruto has a birthday
I guess it does make a difference where you started out. Like some others here I grew up with a bunch of very nice people who were religious and the social aspect of that association was good. If I was slow to abandon all the trappings of religion and churches, it was partly because of the good people I knew there. Later I hung out with some Quakers, and again they were fine people, easy to get along with, tolerant and thoughtful. I can't accept religion, but I have no problem with people who do, as long as they don't try to hammer it into me.

I grew up, unlike Jay, in a rather liberal corner of Connecticut, and the failure of religion was simply intellectual. It just did not take. Faced with the inexplicable I'd rather just acknowledge that I don't know than to substitute belief for honest ignorance.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2018, 04:02 PM   #283
yog_sothoth
Critical Thinker
 
yog_sothoth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 433
A failure of theism. I read the bible and took notes, which annihilated any lingering doubts I may have ever had on the subject. It amazes me that bible study groups don't end in everyone asking how anyone could take this book seriously.

Last edited by yog_sothoth; 9th February 2018 at 04:05 PM.
yog_sothoth is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2018, 05:07 PM   #284
Pooneil
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 185
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Iím wondering if others are atheists predominately because of the success of science or the failure of theism.
I came to atheism by long term observation that the behaviours, attitudes and beliefs of religious people and the non-religious were for all practical purposes identical. This being the case and there is no noticeable transformation that accompanies the profession of faith, there is no reason to put one's faith in any particular supernatural being or any supernatural being at all.
Pooneil is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2018, 04:56 PM   #285
metacristi
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 643
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Why is the human created abstract concept of "evil" a problem?

Demiurge - A being responsible for the creation of the universe.

Teleology – The doctrine that there is evidence of purpose or design in the universe, and esp that this provides proof of the existence of a Designer.

Seems to me you are perhaps some sort of theist rather than some sort of atheist.

So you present these (self chosen) translations as the only way to evaluate what I said. Not surprising then your comments on the problem of evil. Other people seem to understand what I said though. Thanks for informing me that I am a theist (in your great system of values) but no thanks. Happily remaining more open toward the possibility of some sort of teleology (for example in the sense put forward by Paul Davies) does not imply belief in anything.

By the way Demiurge was understood as a limited being(s), albeit the creator(s) of our Universe (including possible beings in a 'higher up' reality), but as I said I think that an (omni all) Supreme Being is unlikely to exist. And teleology is of course 'the explanation of phenomena by the purpose they serve rather than by postulated causes' + 'purpose and design are a part of or are apparent in nature'. rational people ask first for clarifications before commenting.
__________________
ďIt is often said that knowledge is power, but it might be more correct to say that [critical] thinking is power.Ē - Stuart Sim

ibn Warraq - Why I am not a Muslim

My review of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book 'Heretic'

Last edited by metacristi; 14th February 2018 at 05:46 PM.
metacristi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2018, 09:57 PM   #286
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,397
Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
By the way Demiurge was understood as a limited being(s), albeit the creator(s) of our Universe (including possible beings in a 'higher up' reality), ...
A good example of a non personal god. The demiurge can just be a force of nature.

What I don't understand is your use of "limited being". The demiurge is extremely powerful, yet limited just in scope. And this demiurge together with Humanism seems to be the basis of their mild beliefs for many an agnostic.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 09:43 AM   #287
Jagermeister
New Blood
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I'm not sure how to parse that statement correctly. Do you mean, you were increasingly unwilling to consider theist arguments as you accumulated instances of theism being contrary to fact, logic or common sense?
Sorry, I should have been more clear.

I'm always willing to consider theist arguments when they provide new ones (a rarity now I've heard most of the oft repeated ones).

But I was referring to how my atheism grew as science, logic, history, etc demonstrated atheism was the more rational stance; whereas theism failed to provide any credible answers to questions such as morality.
Jagermeister is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 01:21 PM   #288
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,181
Originally Posted by Jagermeister View Post
For me it was both. Religion contradicted the science I knew.

But my atheism increased the more theism failed.
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I'm not sure how to parse that statement correctly. Do you mean, you were increasingly unwilling to consider theist arguments as you accumulated instances of theism being contrary to fact, logic or common sense?
Originally Posted by Jagermeister View Post
Sorry, I should have been more clear.

I'm always willing to consider theist arguments when they provide new ones (a rarity now I've heard most of the oft repeated ones).

But I was referring to how my atheism grew as science, logic, history, etc demonstrated atheism was the more rational stance; whereas theism failed to provide any credible answers to questions such as morality.

Clear as can be for me now and even before the further clarification.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2018, 08:20 AM   #289
Tommy Jeppesen
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,578
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Clear as can be for me now and even before the further clarification.
So as religion has failed morality(I agree with that) what has science, logic, history etc. to say about morality?

I would like a clarification, Thor 2
__________________
I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic.
#JeSuisAhmed
Tommy Jeppesen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2018, 02:17 PM   #290
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,181
Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
So as religion has failed morality(I agree with that) what has science, logic, history etc. to say about morality?

I would like a clarification, Thor 2

Science doesn't "say" anything about morality. If we use the scientific method however (observation), we can see today that the places in the World today that enjoy the lowest levels of crime, are the same places where education levels are highest, and religious observance least. This can be an indicator that morality is highest in such places I think.

We have an abundance of evidence from history (very recent as well as old), that religion has encouraged some of the most abhorrent behaviour we know of. It could be argued they were good people doing it - just misguided by religion.

The theme of this thread is about what caused the breakdown of religious belief in the one responding. Jagermeister just mentioned that "theism failed to provide any credible answers to questions such as morality", not that science did.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2018, 12:19 AM   #291
Tommy Jeppesen
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,578
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Science doesn't "say" anything about morality. If we use the scientific method however (observation), we can see today that the places in the World today that enjoy the lowest levels of crime, are the same places where education levels are highest, and religious observance least. This can be an indicator that morality is highest in such places I think.

We have an abundance of evidence from history (very recent as well as old), that religion has encouraged some of the most abhorrent behaviour we know of. It could be argued they were good people doing it - just misguided by religion.

The theme of this thread is about what caused the breakdown of religious belief in the one responding. Jagermeister just mentioned that "theism failed to provide any credible answers to questions such as morality", not that science did.
But religion is not a thing or a category in itself, it is a natural phenomenon and a human behavior. Religion is not wrong or right in naturalistic/scientific terms. It is a fact like gravity.
Nor is science a thing or a category in itself, it is a natural phenomenon and a human behavior. Science is not wrong or right in naturalistic/scientific terms. It is a fact like gravity.

We have been here before.
We both want to replace religious behavior with something else? How do we do that and what do we replace it with?
It is easy to say that religion doesn't work for you or me, but we want that to be so for as many people as possible, right??? So how do we do that and what do we replace it with?

With regards
__________________
I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic.
#JeSuisAhmed
Tommy Jeppesen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2018, 01:41 PM   #292
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,181
Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
But religion is not a thing or a category in itself, it is a natural phenomenon and a human behavior. Religion is not wrong or right in naturalistic/scientific terms. It is a fact like gravity.
Religion is a natural phenomena? Not to sure about that.

Religion has/does fill the need in some, to have answers for phenomena we have no explanation for. Some however is not all and others, like myself, am comfortable with a lack of knowledge, although hungry to learn more.


Quote:
Nor is science a thing or a category in itself, it is a natural phenomenon and a human behavior. Science is not wrong or right in naturalistic/scientific terms. It is a fact like gravity.
Let's not conflate science with too much else. Science is a method used to establish the most likely truth and is naturally used by all thinking creatures. Science is right in that it is the most reliable method to arrive at a truthful conclusion.


Quote:
We have been here before.
We both want to replace religious behavior with something else? How do we do that and what do we replace it with?
It is easy to say that religion doesn't work for you or me, but we want that to be so for as many people as possible, right??? So how do we do that and what do we replace it with?

With regards
Not to sure we need to replace religion with anything, other than wonderful feeling of release to be done with it. In a sense you could say you are replacing religion with a thirst for real knowledge, and an acceptance (without unease), that all is not known. It would seem that more and more people are coming to this mindset, when we observe the breakdown of religion in the more educated societies of the World.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.

Last edited by Thor 2; 26th February 2018 at 01:42 PM.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2018, 07:03 PM   #293
Delvo
الشيطان الأبيض
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 7,555
I believe that the fact that I didn't assimilate into Christianity had more to do with other mythologies and works of fiction than with science. A variety of things that were presented to me as fiction, from Transformers to The Odyssey to the Flash and Green Lantern to Winnie the Pooh to Knight Rider to Battlestar Galactica to Santa Claus, just never seemed to me any different from Biblical stuff.

I was 11 and atheist before the idea of science and religion having any conflicts was even apparent to me, not because I previously thought they could fit together, but because I hadn't even imagined the question and realized that anybody would think they were supposed to. To me they had seemed irrelevant to each other, so even bothering to ask about how well Christianity matched reality would have been like asking about how well the real world could accommodate the magical powers of Skeletor or Papa Smurf.
Delvo is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2018, 11:54 AM   #294
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,359
Did anyone else do mandatory religious education in school? I did.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2018, 11:58 AM   #295
calebprime
moleman
 
calebprime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,273
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Did anyone else do mandatory religious education in school? I did.
Good on you for coming to the balanced and pragmatic views that you've shown on this board, and not becoming an atheist reactionary.
calebprime is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2018, 12:04 PM   #296
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,359
Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
Good on you for coming to the balanced and pragmatic views that you've shown on this board, and not becoming an atheist reactionary.
I was, for a while. Then I got tired of being an *******.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2018, 12:57 PM   #297
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,181
Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
Good on you for coming to the balanced and pragmatic views that you've shown on this board, and not becoming an atheist reactionary.

Well I also was subjected to mandatory religious education in school and it caused me a lot of pain until I managed to flush the crap out of my system. I don't think children should be subjected to this pain inducing nonsense, so will come out against theistic indoctrination whenever I can.

I don't hate theists but do hate theism and if that makes me an "atheistic reactionary" so be it.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2018, 01:48 PM   #298
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,397
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
... until I managed to flush the crap out of my system.
No, you haven't do it yet. Religion is still there. The only things gone are some particular indoctrinated dogma and the fantastic ideation that comes with it.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2018, 02:22 PM   #299
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,181
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
No, you haven't do done it yet. Religion is still there. The only things gone are some particular indoctrinated dogma and the fantastic ideation that comes with it.

You might think you are gifted with some remarkable insight ale, but you will have to do more than this to convince me you are so gifted.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2018, 02:48 PM   #300
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,397
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
You might think you are gifted with some remarkable insight ale, but you will have to do more than this to convince me you are so gifted.
I'm not trying to convince you (nothing is about you). I'm just trying to give a form to perceptions many others have regarding antitheists like you, perceptions they haven't verbalized yet. Then, they will be able to agree or not. It's their feedback what I'm looking for.

Religion is in human nature, as aggression is. You can be a religious freak or a violent criminal, or you can become a false atheist who is chasing theists and their stupid beliefs, or you can become a pacifist who hooks 100 bills and leaves them in the sidewalk, and when someone tries to grab them, reel them quickly into your garden so you can legally shoot the trespasser.

That is the kind of "pacifist", "self-controlled" dudes they are. That is how much non-theist certain "atheists" are.

Be sure I'm not particularly gifted nor you are important in this debate. We're not even a pawns. Not even the squares bellow it. Just specks of dust on the board.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2018, 06:44 PM   #301
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,181
Oh why am I confused? I wrote:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well I also was subjected to mandatory religious education in school and it caused me a lot of pain until I managed to flush the crap out of my system. I don't think children should be subjected to this pain inducing nonsense, so will come out against theistic indoctrination whenever I can.

I don't hate theists but do hate theism and if that makes me an "atheistic reactionary" so be it.
You quote the highlighted and respond with:

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
No, you haven't do it yet. Religion is still there. The only things gone are some particular indoctrinated dogma and the fantastic ideation that comes with it.
"No, you haven't do it yet" (I assumed you meant done not do) you write and then when I respond:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
You might think you are gifted with some remarkable insight ale, but you will have to do more than this to convince me you are so gifted.
You come back with:

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I'm not trying to convince you (nothing is about you). I'm just trying to give a form to perceptions many others have regarding antitheists like you, perceptions they haven't verbalized yet. Then, they will be able to agree or not. It's their feedback what I'm looking for.

Religion is in human nature, as aggression is. You can be a religious freak or a violent criminal, or you can become a false atheist who is chasing theists and their stupid beliefs, or you can become a pacifist who hooks 100 bills and leaves them in the sidewalk, and when someone tries to grab them, reel them quickly into your garden so you can legally shoot the trespasser.

That is the kind of "pacifist", "self-controlled" dudes they are. That is how much non-theist certain "atheists" are.

Be sure I'm not particularly gifted nor you are important in this debate. We're not even a pawns. Not even the squares bellow it. Just specks of dust on the board.

Huh .... not about me??

Then you describe me as an antitheist which I am not if you read my first post. Antithesism I most certainly am.

Can't make much of your'e analogy about bills on the sidewalk, but I take exception to your comment about pawns and such. Be as self depreciating as you like but leave me out of it.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2018, 10:04 PM   #302
Tommy Jeppesen
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,578
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I'm not trying to convince you (nothing is about you). I'm just trying to give a form to perceptions many others have regarding antitheists like you, perceptions they haven't verbalized yet. Then, they will be able to agree or not. It's their feedback what I'm looking for.

Religion is in human nature, as aggression is. You can be a religious freak or a violent criminal, or you can become a false atheist who is chasing theists and their stupid beliefs, or you can become a pacifist who hooks 100 bills and leaves them in the sidewalk, and when someone tries to grab them, reel them quickly into your garden so you can legally shoot the trespasser.

That is the kind of "pacifist", "self-controlled" dudes they are. That is how much non-theist certain "atheists" are.

Be sure I'm not particularly gifted nor you are important in this debate. We're not even a pawns. Not even the squares bellow it. Just specks of dust on the board.
Yes, as an atheist I agree. Among "my brother in arms", i.e. other atheists, some of them are anti-theists and they are militant in the following sense: They fight religion, because they dislike religion; believe they are better in a rational sense; believe that religion is wrong, believe that religion can be removed using evidence, reason and logic and the worst of them believe that they are rational and have evidence all the time.

If you want to I can explain how I am religious in one sense and a-religious in another.

With regards
__________________
I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic.
#JeSuisAhmed
Tommy Jeppesen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2018, 06:33 AM   #303
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,897
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Declaring that part of the community is not not permitted to comment and to point out things like:

The headline is a false dichotomy; science and theism are not mutually exclusive, etc

all of which are on topic and quintessence of critical thinking
IIRC, no one said they were (mutually exclusive). They asked if atheists were atheists due to science or religion. My answer (which I did not give prior to this) would be both:

Religion makes no sense and it's belief system is completely and utterly silly and irresponsible as well as having a complete lack of proof for any of it's tenets. Whereas science requires logic and careful observation and experimentation as well as actual proof of it's results and has done damn well with that as it's basis.

More specifically, religion was just ignorant humans ways of explaining things that happened to them or others while the development of science allowed humans to look for real and demonstrably correct explanations for what happened to them.
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2018, 07:07 AM   #304
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,897
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I'm allegedly conflating things by not picking a version of a word that our correspondents would find ever so much more convenient, which (absolutely shockingly) makes me a liar.

Cripes fellas, if you have literally nothing with which to counter my arguments other than pedantic nonsense and personal attacks, why bother? Next time just run up the white flag, it'll be easier
With no offense, nobody needs a white flag to counter the beliefs you claim. It is a BIG problem with most religious people - to most of them faith always trumps observable reality.
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2018, 07:17 AM   #305
Cheetah
Graduate Poster
 
Cheetah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,078
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Religion makes no sense and it's belief system is completely and utterly silly and irresponsible as well as having a complete lack of proof for any of it's tenets. Whereas science requires logic and careful observation and experimentation as well as actual proof of it's results and has done damn well with that as it's basis.

More specifically, religion was just ignorant humans ways of explaining things that happened to them or others while the development of science allowed humans to look for real and demonstrably correct explanations for what happened to them.

Amen to that fuelair, amen.
__________________
"... when you dig my grave, could you make it shallow so that I can feel the rain" - DMB
Cheetah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2018, 07:20 AM   #306
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,897
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
My atheism comes from a theism failure.

My incredulity forces me to reject any invisible sky deity that professes to love its creations and yet allows wars, famines, terrorism, murder etc to take place. A just God would not inflict suffering and pain on the creations it loves.

Besides, if this sky deity really exists, where is it? Point to it and show me what it looks like.
Mine was simpler and when I was much younger. I was a voracious reader (still am) and while reading an issue of Reader's Digest (mid- 1950's so 4th or 5th grade) read in one of the sets of anecdotes people sent in (all supposedly true) about a little girl in a hospital with a medical problem that kept her hospitalized. Some ******* asked her if she had prayed for the god thing to heal her and her response was "Yes - but god said no." My mental response was essentially "That motherraping ******* should be in hell!!" (When I say I read a lot, I did, from Seuss on up to books for big people - especially fantasy, SF and mysteries, science, mythology & related).
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2018, 07:25 AM   #307
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,897
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wait a minute, you delieberately deleted part of a sentence to make some kind of position statement. That is amazing.

Here was the whole sentence "There is no requirement that love, hope, beauty, empathy, good taste, hell political beliefs have evidence or verification."

You deleted part of it, THEN you slapped down a link to a tome without ever trying to explain what it meant, and now you are complaining that I have misrepresented your point which was based on you having deliberately deleted part of my sentence? Wow.

Seems like someone is getting hoisted by one's own petard.....
You misspelled deliberately there!!! Or is that a punishment........
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2018, 07:27 AM   #308
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,897
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
But when you foist your faith and beliefs on others, or try to persuade others that there is a god, then you had better have evidence to back up your position if you don't want to be laughed off the stage.

I wonder why you and Fudbucker are even posting in this thread at all. The subject of the thread is

"Is your atheism predominately a science success or a theism fail?"

You are both obviously rampant god-botherers, so the question ynot has posed isn't even directed at you, and is one you cannot possibly answer.
Some people neglect to read the questions carefully before answering them I have been told!!!
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2018, 12:01 PM   #309
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,359
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I don't hate theists but do hate theism
As I have tried to point out several times before, the two aren't as easily separable as you wish they were. You have consistently refused to acknowledge that point, though.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2018, 12:39 PM   #310
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,941
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As I have tried to point out several times before, the two aren't as easily separable as you wish they were. You have consistently refused to acknowledge that point, though.
Rubbish! I have many good, long-term friends that are theists (and other paranormal believers). I don't hate them, but I do hate their theism (and I tell them so). You have consistently refused to acknowledge that point, though.

Hating people smoking is not hating the people that smoke. I'm not going to lie and pretend that I like theism or smoking just to be "nice" to theists and smokers. Their theism and smoking isn't them being "nice" to me.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 28th February 2018 at 12:51 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2018, 02:08 PM   #311
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,181
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As I have tried to point out several times before, the two aren't as easily separable as you wish they were. You have consistently refused to acknowledge that point, though.

As ynot so succinctly put it ^ this is rubbish and how can I acknowledge a point that hasn't been made?

I have friends and family who are religious and I am not anti them but am anti the dogma that afflicts them. Beneath the smiling faces I can see the dilemma they are in and the anguish.

Can you tell me that you, as an atheist, are not anti the religious muscle that impacts the lives of so many - possibly even yourself? Can you tell me that you, as an atheist, are not appalled at the efforts of the Catholic Church to stop the use of condoms in Africa, to give just one example? If you answer yes then you too are antitheism. And no, you wouldn't feel any antagonism, toward the poor deluded African folk who are taken in by this crap.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2018, 03:37 AM   #312
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 22,349
Well, if the anecdote my mother tells is accurate, then my atheism is a theism fail. The claim is that when I was somewhere between the ages of 3 and 6 (I don't know exactly, but the story is attached to us living in a particular place, and those are the ages between which I lived there) I proudly declared to her that I didn't believe in God. She acknowledged this with a maternal "that's nice, dear" kind of response. Later she was talking to a friend of the family who was a Rabbi and repeated what I'd said in a "kids say the darndest things" kind of way. The Rabbi told her that I'd gone to see him without her knowledge and had grilled him about the existence or non-existence of God. He said that I'd asked deeper, more thoughtful, and more probing questions than the majority of adults he'd spoken to on the subject, including fellow Rabbis. "If that child," so the story goes he said, "tells you he doesn't believe in God - you believe him".

I have no memory of this whatsoever, and I take it with a huge pinch of salt, personally, given that it's being told from the perspective of a proud mother but it's the only account of its kind that I have, and I have no memory of ever being anything other than an atheist. Well, except for a vague memory of one afternoon in the same place and therefore around the same age when a fellow kid told me about hell and scared me enough to Pascal's Wager myself into belief for a couple of hours until I told my mother (again), and she asked me whether that's what I really believed, to which the obvious and immediate answer was "no".

Again, take that anecdote with a pinch of salt, as it's from the perspective of a very young child from longer ago than I'd care to admit, and I know how tricky memory can be and therefore how likely it is for even major details of that memory being wrong.

I suppose the science success aspect comes in a little later in life. When I was a teenager I had a very vague belief in some New-Age stuff like reading runes, doing Tarot, crystals, the existence of auras, and that kind of nonsense. But it was only vague, and I never really gave it much thought - I didn't really think of any of that as more than a kind of game, I don't think. And there was plenty of that kind of stuff I just simply didn't find even remotely credible even then - like ghosts, or ouija boards, to give two examples I remember off the top of my head. I don't even know when I stopped even that vague belief, but I'd wager it likely coincided with learning more about logic and empiricism. Since those beliefs don't stand up to any even slight scrutiny, it's not a stretch to think that the increase of the one led to the decrease in the other, even if I didn't actually put much conscious thought into it and instead they just sort of vaguely faded from the background of my mind.

So that's me. Not very interesting, and with no big moments of any kind, just a sort of bunch of stuff.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2018, 03:43 AM   #313
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 22,349
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Can you tell me that you, as an atheist, are not appalled at the efforts of the Catholic Church to stop the use of condoms in Africa, to give just one example? If you answer yes then you too are antitheism.
I think you can be anti-specific-aspects-of-theism (or, perhaps more accurately, anti-specific-aspects-of-specific-kinds-of-theism), such as the quoted example, without being anti-everything-theistic. In fact, being anti-one-aspect-of-Catholicism doesn't even necessarily imply that that person is anti-Catholic.

To illustrate, using an example from outside of religion, I am anti-death penalty. The USA has the death penalty. I am not anti-USA. I am certainly not anti-country, or anti-law.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2018, 12:06 PM   #314
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,359
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Can you tell me that you, as an atheist, are not anti the religious muscle that impacts the lives of so many - possibly even yourself?
I can tell you that.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Can you tell me that you, as an atheist, are not appalled at the efforts of the Catholic Church to stop the use of condoms in Africa, to give just one example? If you answer yes then you too are antitheism. And no, you wouldn't feel any antagonism, toward the poor deluded African folk who are taken in by this crap.
Not the point. In fact once again, you have completely bypassed my point and are arguing against some other point that I never made.

It's exactly - exactly - like arguing with a religious person.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2018, 01:40 PM   #315
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,181
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I can tell you that.

Not the point. In fact once again, you have completely bypassed my point and are arguing against some other point that I never made.

It's exactly - exactly - like arguing with a religious person.

So, you are not concerned when the message given in the churches and mosques is that homosexuals should be demonised and even killed. You are not concerned when women are locked up if they are suspected of having an abortion. You are not concerned ........

Your position is either dishonest or callous.

I don't know what your point is and it would seem ynot doesn't either.

"Like arguing with a religious person" ??? Trying to be insulting now are we?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2018, 03:05 PM   #316
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,941
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Not the point. In fact once again, you have completely bypassed my point and are arguing against some other point that I never made.
Thor 2 didn't bypassed your "point" at all! You bypassed the part of Thor 2's post that addressed your "point".
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I have friends and family who are religious and I am not anti them but am anti the dogma that afflicts them.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's exactly - exactly - like arguing with a religious person.
Pot > kettle > black!
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 1st March 2018 at 03:17 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2018, 03:11 PM   #317
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,941
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post

"Like arguing with a religious person" ??? Trying to be insulting now are we?
Insulting religious people is hardly playing "nice" with them (which seems to be arthwollipot's actual point).
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2018, 02:02 PM   #318
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,181
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Insulting religious people is hardly playing "nice" with them (which seems to be arthwollipot's actual point).

Yes sometimes these points can be tricky to nail down.

Well I do try to be nice to religious folk but it's hard to tackle the dicy dogma with any degree of respect. Mind, I do slip up at times when things get a little heated, as I am only human without divine guidance to aid me.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2018, 07:35 PM   #319
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,897
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes sometimes these points can be tricky to nail down.

Well I do try to be nice to religious folk but it's hard to tackle the dicy dogma with any degree of respect. Mind, I do slip up at times when things get a little heated, as I am only human without divine guidance to aid me.
or, to be more precise, they think they get divine guidance but they do not!!!
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

Last edited by fuelair; 2nd March 2018 at 07:39 PM. Reason: meant guidance, messed it up, fixed it.....
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd March 2018, 10:18 PM   #320
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,359
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So, you are not concerned when the message given in the churches and mosques is that homosexuals should be demonised and even killed.
I am concerned that this is the message given in some churches and mosques. And I am also concerned that you demonise all churches and mosques because of the attitudes of some.

Seriously, Thor. I'm kind of tired of trying to tell you that there are good, socially progressive and responsible churches that do not promote these messages - and that there are a lot more of them than you have ever acknowledged. You see only the worst of the worst, and assume that they're all like that. You have always done it, ever since you started posting on these topics, and though I have called you out on it every time, you refuse to even consider an alternative point of view. To you, all religion and expression of religion is by definition evil and irredeemable. Apart from anything else, that's just factually incorrect, and to continue to cling to it despite all available evidence is poor thinking.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I don't know what your point is and it would seem ynot doesn't either.
I don't know why, because I've explained my point to you any number of times. Oh wait, I do know why. It's because you just can't understand anything that contradicts your preferred narrative.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
"Like arguing with a religious person" ??? Trying to be insulting now are we?
Apparently for you, the label of "religious" is an insult. Okay. Aren't you therefore deliberately insulting people every time you refer to someone as religious? How do you reconcile that with your claim that you "love the believer, hate the belief".

By the way, you know what that's very close to, right? Why do we give you a pass when we don't let religious people "love the sinner, hate the sin"?

Now, are you going to accuse me of supporting paedophiles and extremists again? Because if you are, we're done.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:27 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.