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Old 11th January 2018, 06:46 AM   #241
Pterodactyl
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IMO, with some clear exceptions, #MeToo is typical Facebook attention seeking.
Low-cut tops .... attention seeking.
Fashion generally.... attention seeking.

These are the types of problems that people with no real problems in their lives have to invent to make things interesting.

If a person has assaulted you, call the police.
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Old 11th January 2018, 06:47 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I wonder how that first group of women will up their game if men end up too terrified to react to them...?
I don't think men will ever be terrified to react to those women. I certainly am not.
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Old 11th January 2018, 06:48 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Aren't one a teenager when in the late teens? I could have said "young woman". My point was, it's unlikely she was out scoping for middle-aged men, and he should not have assumed she was.
What difference does that make? She probably wasn't gunning for 14 year olds, either, but it doesn't stop them from looking.

What a strange prudeness.
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Old 11th January 2018, 06:48 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
IMO, with some clear exceptions, #MeToo is typical Facebook attention seeking.
Low-cut tops .... attention seeking.
Fashion generally.... attention seeking.

These are the types of problems that people with no real problems in their lives have to invent to make things interesting.

If a person has assaulted you, call the police.
Easy to say, much much harder to do in many cases, especially when it's a question of someone in a powerful position. We've seen this again and again this fall, and we'll continue to see it until the behavior that is the cause of all this ends.
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Old 11th January 2018, 06:50 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I wonder how that first group of women will up their game if men end up too terrified to react to them...?
In my meagre experience, there is a huge excluded middle between men cowering, unwilling to engage socially with women, and staring at a stranger's breasts.

As a married 50 year old, I wouldn't be looking to "hook up" with anyone, and certainly not a woman in her late teens or early 20s but unmarried early-20s me might have been tempted to engage one or both girls in conversation (though if they were, as they seem to be, Mean Girls then I'd likely have slunk off afterwards, tail between legs, because I doubt that I was the kind of young man or woman they were seeking to attract, if they were trying to attract someone with their clothing).
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Old 11th January 2018, 06:51 AM   #246
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The implied humblebrag:

"Im so attractive, men keep propositioning and staring at me wherever I go. Life is so hard"
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Old 11th January 2018, 06:56 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
The implied humblebrag:

"Im so attractive, men keep propositioning and staring at me wherever I go. Life is so hard"
Yes, that's #metoo in distilled form. You are so perceptive.
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Old 11th January 2018, 06:57 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yes, that's #metoo in distilled form. You are so perceptive.
Devolved into. Quickly.
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Old 11th January 2018, 06:58 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Devolved into. Quickly.
Absolutely. **** those sluts, right?


Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited for Rule 10. Do not avoid the autocensor.
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Last edited by Loss Leader; 18th January 2018 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:01 AM   #250
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Im not saying **** anybody.
Im blaming our wanna-be-reality-show, look at me culture for taking a serious cause and using it as an excuse to garner FB likes.


Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited for rule 10. Do not avoid the autocensor.

Last edited by Loss Leader; 18th January 2018 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:02 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Im not saying **** anybody.
Im blaming our wanna-be-reality-show, look at me culture for taking a serious cause and using it as an excuse to garner FB likes.
Yeah, it's only those celebs who are involved. It has absolutely no other ramifications.


Edited by Loss Leader:  Quoted edited to conform
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:03 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The problem is also it can be hard to find clothing that fits and does not show off such assets. A scoop neck shirt is more forgiving of a large bust than other neck lines. Some people can not wear button up shirts because they will always gape.

How do you know exactly what their intent in their clothing choice is? And what baseline are we using.
It's a judgement call. The situation we're discussing involves:

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
very revealing tops with a neckline that plunged almost to their belly buttons.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:04 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It's a judgement call. The situation we're discussing involves:
Do girls in the summertime ever sit around in bikini-tops where you live?
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:04 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Aren't one a teenager when in the late teens? I could have said "young woman". My point was, it's unlikely she was out scoping for middle-aged men, and he should not have assumed she was.
One is only allowed to look at women that are scoping for one's own demographic?

How does one know what demographic the lady in question is scoping for. Is there a new handkerchief code I should know about?
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:05 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
One is only allowed to look at women that are scoping for one's own demographic?

How does one know what demographic the lady in question is scoping for. Is there a new handkerchief code I should know about?
Until you learn these basic social codes, I recommend you ask.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:06 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Well now I'm confused

Does this mean that a woman wearing a tshirt has the right to confront a man she feels is staring in an unwelcome way at her ?

At what point does a woman lose the right to confront someone staring at her ?



Of course you are within your rights to complain about it.
And the world would be well within it's rights to say "Shut the **** up, you're in a *********** clown costume for god's sake man. If you dond't want to be looked at, you should have worn something that attracts less attention."

Which I think is probably good advice generally speaking.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:09 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Do girls in the summertime ever sit around in bikini-tops where you live?

Sometimes, if it's hot.

Sometimes I too go out wearing less than I usually would if it's hot. I manage to cope if someone I don't find attractive notices me.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:10 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Sometimes, if it's hot.

Sometimes I too go out wearing less than I usually would if it's hot. I manage to cope if someone I don't find attractive notices me.
Do you think girls sitting around in bikini-tops are inviting you to ogle them? Or do you think maybe it's because it's hot out?
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:11 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Absolutely. **** those sluts, right?
International Strawmen Forum.



Edited by Loss Leader:  Quote edited to conform.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:12 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Until you learn these basic social codes, I recommend you ask.

There is no basic social code, you made that up.


If you see a young lady dressed to kill on a Friday night, neither you, nor any social code you're referring to, have any idea what sort of man or woman she's looking to attract and you have absolutely bugger all right to assume that you do.


I'd be amazed if you can summarise the 'social code' that apparently means one can tell what sort of person another is looking for just by looking at them.

You seem determined to disparage me with strawmen. It's getting tedious.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:12 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Do you think girls sitting around in bikini-tops are inviting you to ogle them? Or do you think maybe it's because it's hot out?
If you put something out, expect to have it looked at. If you don't want that, don't put it out. This isn't rocket science.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:13 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Do you think girls sitting around in bikini-tops are inviting you to ogle them? Or do you think maybe it's because it's hot out?

When did anyone say 'invitation'? You just make things up, it's getting tedious.

No, not an invite but there's certainly no excuse for yelling at a man who looks at what's being displayed.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:14 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
There is no basic social code, you made that up.
That might be the problem then. Because there are.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If you see a young lady dressed to kill on a Friday night, neither you, nor any social code you're referring to, have any idea what sort of man or woman she's looking to attract and you have absolutely bugger all right to assume that you do.
Or if she's looking to attract anyone and isn't simply dressing in what she thinks looks good, or to feel sexy or any other reason.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'd be amazed if you can summarise the 'social code' that apparently means one can tell what sort of person another is looking for just by looking at them.
In the case under discussion, being double the girl's age is a fairly sure indication that she's not interested.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You seem determined to disparage me with strawmen. It's getting tedious.
If only they were strawmen.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:15 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
When did anyone say 'invitation'? You just make things up, it's getting tedious.

No, not an invite but there's certainly no excuse for yelling at a man who looks at what's being displayed.
What kind of clothes would allow a woman to yell at a man about being stared at? Any clothes that are suitable in sweltering heat?
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:18 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That might be the problem then. Because there are.
Could you link me or describe it please.



Quote:
Or if she's looking to attract anyone and isn't simply dressing in what she thinks looks good, or to feel sexy or any other reason.
Yep, and that comes with consequences. Oh, and 'sexy' to whom?


Quote:
In the case under discussion, being double the girl's age is a fairly sure indication that she's not interested.
It's really, really not. It may be only in your experience, but in the rest of the world there is no way to be that certain without being an actual mindreader.



Quote:
If only they were strawmen.
One after the other after the other. Just count the number of times you or others have posted 'So she was asking for it?'
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:21 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
What kind of clothes would allow a woman to yell at a man about being stared at? Any clothes that are suitable in sweltering heat?
Depends on circumstances. I'll tell you what sort of clothes a lady can wear and not retain the right to yell at a man for staring and that would be

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
very revealing tops with a neckline that plunged almost to their belly buttons.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:22 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Could you link me or describe it please.
It's one of those things you generally don't find on the internet or written down. It's something you learn interacting with other people while growing up. Briefly, I guess you could summarize it as "don't be *********** creepy".


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yep, and that comes with consequences.
Should it?

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Oh, and 'sexy' to whom?
Herself.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It's really, really not. It may be only in your experience, but in the rest of the world there is no way to be that certain without being an actual mindreader.
I understand many 40 year olds imagine themselves bagging a 20 year old, but forget it, man. Even if you manage it, it's way more hassle than it seems. I simply think you're deluding yourself if you pass an attractive 20 year old on the street and you think you've got a shot.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
One after the other after the other. Just count the number of times you or others have posted 'So she was asking for it?'
That's a big fat goose-egg then. For me at least.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:23 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Depends on circumstances. I'll tell you what sort of clothes a lady can wear and not retain the right to yell at a man for staring and that would be
Who decided this? You?

Because I disagree, as do, I expect, many if not most women.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:24 AM   #269
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If the worst scenario people are coming up with is "Are you saying I can't look at boobies anymore?", countered with a slippery slope fallacy equating slight rudeness with assault... I suppose the provisional answer is: no, #metoo hasn't gone too far.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:25 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm sad this was what was taken away from my arguments. I haven't done a very good job then. I'll remind you that I'm an ESL speaker and typer, and that culture vary even within the Western world.
Your English is at least as good as most FLES!

Sorry if that isn't what you meant, can you try and explain again?
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:26 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Your English is at least as good as most FLES!

Sorry if that isn't what you meant, can you try and explain again?
I don't think you misrepresented me. I just think I might put different value in the word "perverted" than you. I was more lamenting the fact that apparently my definition of "pervert" is what's sticking out to people reading.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:28 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
And the world would be well within it's rights to say "Shut the **** up, you're in a *********** clown costume for god's sake man. If you dond't want to be looked at, you should have worn something that attracts less attention."

Which I think is probably good advice generally speaking.
In that case, how do you advise women to dress to allow them to tell men staring at their chests to stop ?

"I cannot control myself, so you women had jolly well dress modestly if you don't want to attract my unwanted attention"
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:29 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
...snip..

When did he move from putting the moves on these women to full out assault? The people advocating freedom to put the moves on women don't seem to be any better about giving guidelines on when that is OK vs when it is OK to stare at a woman's breasts.
Right from the start those were the allegations being made. See: https://www.theguardian.com/film/201...we-know-so-far
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:29 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's one of those things you generally don't find on the internet or written down. It's something you learn interacting with other people while growing up. Briefly, I guess you could summarize it as "don't be *********** creepy".
No, that's a crap definition of a code of conduct (that doesn't exist). You're just using that to try to disparage me by inferring I'm unable to operate in polite society and, apparently, creepy. That's ********. Pony up this fictitious 'code of conduct' and I'll have a re-think.


Quote:
Should it?
Yes. All choices come with consequences. Go out naked, be looked at a lot. Go out in a clown suit, be looked at a lot. Dress yourself up to deliberately accentuate one's sexuality, get looked at.



Quote:
Herself.
Only possible if she's a lesbian or bi (And I'm not even sure then). How about for the straight ones?


Quote:
I understand many 40 year olds imagine themselves bagging a 20 year old, but forget it, man. Even if you manage it, it's way more hassle than it seems. I simply think you're deluding yourself if you pass an attractive 20 year old on the street and you think you've got a shot.
Now we're talking about the desire of the man? We were talking about the desire of the woman. You seem to think that there's an age range for attraction. Ask how many 40 year old woman would sleep with Sean Connery and disabuse yourself of that notion.

How many 20 year olds do you think want to bag a well heeled 40 year old with a nice car, nice house, good job etc?



Quote:
That's a big fat goose-egg then. For me at least.
Then I have mis-attributed that particular phrase to you and I apologise. I'd still like you to stop inventing stuff simply for the purpose of trying to portray me as a creep. As I say, it'#s getting tedious.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:31 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Who decided this? You?
For me, yes. You can avert your eyes if you like.


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Because I disagree, as do, I expect, many if not most women.
I suspect you may be wrong about that. There exist women who have a similar opinion to mine, that if it's on display it's fair game to be looked at. They feel the same way about men in ludicrously tight jeans.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:34 AM   #276
uke2se
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No, that's a crap definition of a code of conduct (that doesn't exist). You're just using that to try to disparage me by inferring I'm unable to operate in polite society and, apparently, creepy. That's ********. Pony up this fictitious 'code of conduct' and I'll have a re-think.
Social norm. Not code of conduct. And I already told you were you could find it.



Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yes. All choices come with consequences. Go out naked, be looked at a lot. Go out in a clown suit, be looked at a lot. Dress yourself up to deliberately accentuate one's sexuality, get looked at.
How about you just write down how women should dress, we'll send it out to the women of the World and they'll get back to you about it, ok?


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Only possible if she's a lesbian or bi (And I'm not even sure then). How about for the straight ones?
What?

A woman can't want to feel sexy to herself unless she's bi or gay?


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Now we're talking about the desire of the man? We were talking about the desire of the woman. You seem to think that there's an age range for attraction. Ask how many 40 year old woman would sleep with Sean Connery and disabuse yourself of that notion.
No, I don't think there's an age-range for attraction. I think a 40-year-old passing by a 20 year old on the street, ogling her breasts, is deluding himself if he thinks she's going to get with him.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
How many 20 year olds do you think want to bag a well heeled 40 year old with a nice car, nice house, good job etc?
Fewer than you.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Then I have mis-attributed that particular phrase to you and I apologise. I'd still like you to stop inventing stuff simply for the purpose of trying to portray me as a creep. As I say, it'#s getting tedious.
I'm not saying you're a creep. I'm saying that you are arguing as if basic social norms simply don't exist.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:34 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Right from the start those were the allegations being made. See: https://www.theguardian.com/film/201...we-know-so-far
But remember unless they say no loudly and clearly it is ok because if falls under putting the moves on them. It seems many of the women were not actually saying no.

That is the whole problem with the argument that requires the person to say no.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:35 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
For me, yes. You can avert your eyes if you like.




I suspect you may be wrong about that. There exist women who have a similar opinion to mine, that if it's on display it's fair game to be looked at. They feel the same way about men in ludicrously tight jeans.
Should we poll the women in our lifes and compare notes?
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:37 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I suppose those dress codes were formulated for a reason - men (and possibly other women). Maybe we have to accept that women really do have to be the adults here and that men's urges are literally uncontrollable . If a woman wants to avoid unwanted attention then it's up to her to dress and behave in a way so as not to attract it.

The same, I suppose, also applies to men who don't wish to attract attention from other men.....
There's a fourth group of people you've not acknowledged here.
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:39 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But remember unless they say no loudly and clearly it is ok because if falls under putting the moves on them. It seems many of the women were not actually saying no.

That is the whole problem with the argument that requires the person to say no.
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