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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Florida incidents , school incidents , school shootings , shooting incidents

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Old 15th February 2018, 05:19 AM   #81
Nessie
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
If guns are the issue, why didn't we have this problem 40 years ago? Guns were just as available then.
Guns were the same back then but they weren't used to kill classmates.
The culture of mass shooting was still developing. At the present rate of increase, by 2050 there is likely to be multiple mass shootings in schools every single day.

I posted above how the rate of shootings has steady increased, from one single shooting every few years to by 1945 no year went by without a shooting to the rise of mass shootings.

That's what happens when a society does nothing about a problem, It gets worse.

Meanwhile, road deaths has been reduced, because society did do something.
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Old 15th February 2018, 05:20 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Whether guns were a problem 40 years ago is moot. The point is they're a problem NOW, and until America faces up to that, there will be more school shootings.
Sorry, too late, nothing can be done. The USA just needs to learn to cope.
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Old 15th February 2018, 05:21 AM   #83
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The US did have this problem 40 years ago. Not as bad as today, but still outrageously more prevalent than anywhere else in the Western world. The 70s and 80s had many dozens of US school shootings and the death toll was in the dozens. It's a black mark on US society that these are looked back on as 'the good old days' where guns weren't a problem.

Correction: death toll dozens, not in the hundreds.
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Old 15th February 2018, 05:26 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
The US did have this problem 40 years ago. Not as bad as today, but still outrageously more prevalent than anywhere else in the Western world. The 70s and 80s had many dozens of US school shootings and the death toll was in the dozens. It's a black mark on US society that these are looked back on as 'the good old days' where guns weren't a problem.

Correction: death toll dozens, not in the hundreds.
Wikipedia says you're right. The Boomtown Rats wrote a song about one of them.
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Old 15th February 2018, 05:29 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Obviously this school needs a security guard named "Kevin" getting paid $16/hour and is hot **** on Call of Duty.
Making good points.
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Old 15th February 2018, 05:30 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Have fun at the range. Just a few more bodies to step over on your way there. Club soda will get the blood on your hands off with no problem.
Blaming me personally for this carnage while I practice with my air rifle is not going to help at all.

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Old 15th February 2018, 05:30 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Back when I was I high school in the late 70's early 80's we brought gu s to school for Hunter safety classes. There were also many filled gun racks in the parking lot at all times.

I am about 30 miles east of Rochester, NY. We had fights in school that ended when somebody was down with no serious injuries. We had larger fights on rare occasions with rival schools that ended without life threatening injuries.

Never once were guns involved and there were a lot of guns available.

I don't believe guns are the issue. Society is very sick today if children have no problem shooting up their school mates without remorse.
What could possibly have changed?
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Old 15th February 2018, 05:36 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Let me guess -- with the full knowledge that bad guys won't follow the rules, good guys at this school are not allowed to carry guns. This creates a risk-free killing zone for anyone who wants to come in and shoot people until they run out of ammo.
Disarm the bad guys. Oops! Sorry for using simple logic.

Originally Posted by Cain View Post
School shootings such as this, while tragic and preventable, are the price of freedom. And freedom ain't free. Sometimes it's paid in the blood of teenagers. Thoughts and prayers.
That, or the 21st century is proving the old 20th c. nickname for television sets to be horribly, wickedly prescient.
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Old 15th February 2018, 05:39 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
If guns are the issue, why didn't we have this problem 40 years ago? Guns were just as available then.
Guns were the same back then but they weren't used to kill classmates.
Are you just ignoring the posts which give the figures showing that school shootings were happening 40 years ago? If so, what is your motivation?
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Old 15th February 2018, 05:52 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
But what problems? You've described the end point, how does a 19 year old get to the point where he has so many problems he has to solve them all at once at many feet per second?

This man is 19 and has decided that the biggest impact he can make on the world is to end as many lives as possible, solving, as you say, all his problems John Wayne style. My question is why?

What does it say about his view of his prospects for the rest of his life in the land of the free and the home of the brave where anyone can grow up to be president if he thought his best option was to go out in blaze of glory at the age of 19?
Lots of teens reach this point. The only difference is that the ones in the US have ready access to firearms.
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Old 15th February 2018, 05:55 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Lots of teens reach this point. The only difference is that the ones in the US have ready access to firearms.

If you think the only difference between US culture, youth or otherwise, and every other culture in the world, is the availability of guns, then I'd be interested in you proving that.

If you think culture has no affect on actions or decisions, I'd be very interested in you proving that.
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Old 15th February 2018, 06:22 AM   #92
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Its the availability of guns to those who should not have them, which is the problem in the USA.

People who should not have guns in the UK, Germany and Finland have great difficulty getting hold of any gun, let alone a shed load of ammunition.

Consider how much those three countries have changed over the years and how different they are from each other, there is one factor which is similar, the lack of easy access to guns and ammo, which over the years has got harder, as all three countries tightened gun controls and accessibility.

Hence very few school shootings, a total of 10 between those three countries going to back to 1913.
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Old 15th February 2018, 06:27 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well, that would solve every single American problem within a generation. I'm really not sure why you aren't just tacitly accepting this, but actively promoting it.
It is the logical conclusion to the first principles I have adopted and there is no reason to alter those principles.
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Old 15th February 2018, 06:28 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
If guns are the issue, why didn't we have this problem 40 years ago? Guns were just as available then.
Guns were the same back then but they weren't used to kill classmates.
Were guns the same? Or were there fewer semi autos in intermediate rifle cartridges out there and more bolt action rifles and such not semi automatic guns with high capacity magazines.

I believe the Univeristy of Texas shooting is the only high scoring shooting with a bolt action rifle.

Similar weapons were available sure but were they as prevalent?
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Old 15th February 2018, 06:32 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If you think the only difference between US culture, youth or otherwise, and every other culture in the world, is the availability of guns, then I'd be interested in you proving that.

If you think culture has no affect on actions or decisions, I'd be very interested in you proving that.
Here is a good chart for culture not being a significant factor.
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Old 15th February 2018, 06:37 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
The US did have this problem 40 years ago. Not as bad as today, but still outrageously more prevalent than anywhere else in the Western world. The 70s and 80s had many dozens of US school shootings and the death toll was in the dozens. It's a black mark on US society that these are looked back on as 'the good old days' where guns weren't a problem.

Correction: death toll dozens, not in the hundreds.
Wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School..._United_States

1900s - 15
1910s - 19
1920s - 10
1930s - 9
1940s - 8
1950s - 17
1960s - 18
1970s - 30
1980s - 39
1990s - 62
2000s - 60
2010s - 143 (so far and including this shooting)

The problem was steady around 14 a year for the first 6 decades and the increase began in the 1970s and it has gone on since then.
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Old 15th February 2018, 06:52 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
At would point do you think the cost would become unacceptable to the "some"?
Possibly when a gun-fan senator or senior NRA type lost a kid or two? A "Silence of the lambs" moment? But even then I doubt it.
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Old 15th February 2018, 06:58 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
What is it with the idea that we can talk about "the" issue.

There are lots of issues. Yes, society is sick. It is possible for people to drift through life with little or no connection to the human beings around us. That's sick. Oh, and by the way, while we are floating around with no connection to each other, it's really easy to buy lots of guns and ammo.
This. There seems to be an assumption that either the solution to the problem must be a trivially simple one, or that there is no solution to the problem and it must be accepted, and a precursor of this type of thinking is that there is such a thing as "the" cause of the problem. Clearly the ease of access to guns available to mentally unstable and murderous individuals in the USA is a part of the problem, but there are clearly other parts to it. Multiple causes require multiple solutions, but at present the prevailing attitude seems to be that there is no simple single action that can on its own provide a complete solution, therefore there is no point in doing anything.

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Old 15th February 2018, 07:10 AM   #99
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What happens if one takes the information in the graph linked here


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
What could possibly have changed?

and overlay the information in this post here.


Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School..._United_States

1900s - 15
1910s - 19
1920s - 10
1930s - 9
1940s - 8
1950s - 17
1960s - 18
1970s - 30
1980s - 39
1990s - 62
2000s - 60
2010s - 143 (so far and including this shooting)

The problem was steady around 14 a year for the first 6 decades and the increase began in the 1970s and it has gone on since then.


I'm not good with graphics, so I can't actually make the graph and correlation doesn't equal causation, but...
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Old 15th February 2018, 07:11 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
This. There seems to be an assumption that either the solution to the problem must be a trivially simple one, or that there is no solution to the problem and it must be accepted, and a precursor of this type of thinking is that there is such a thing as "the" cause of the problem. Clearly the ease of access to guns available to mentally unstable and murderous individuals in the USA is a part of the problem, but there are clearly other parts to it. Multiple causes require multiple solutions, but at present the prevailing attitude seems to be that there is no simple single action that can on its own provide a complete solution, therefore there is no point in doing anything.

Dave
It does not matter how many causes there are for a kid to be murderous. If he cannot get hold of a gun, he cannot do a school shooting.

There is one solution, make guns inaccessible as possible for the wrong people. That is proven by other countries compared to the USA, which is an outlier in terms of lack of control of guns and the number of mass shootings and shootings of all kinds.

The problem is that the USA let guns get so out of control and there is no consensus to regain control that it can never even enact that simple solution.
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Old 15th February 2018, 07:22 AM   #101
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Reports state that the shooter's adopted mother died in November. That could have put him into a worsened mental illness. Also it suggests that he is an adopted child and his ethnicity or race cannot be assumed from his name.

He was living with "another family". The gun (AR15 type or style) was his and legally owned. The family he lived with required him to have the gun securely stored within the house and it was.
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Old 15th February 2018, 07:24 AM   #102
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I am a gun owner, who happily owns her gun(and obviously lives in the US), but I would surrender my rights - or at least some of them - for a chance to not get shot going to the movies, or the mall, or school, or hell even McDonalds. The single biggest problem in the US is the me me me mentality that everyone has here. It's all about my rights, screw the rest of you. The selfishness here is really out of hand.
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Old 15th February 2018, 07:28 AM   #103
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It's just the guns

https://mobile.twitter.com/Max_Fishe...72659401560066
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Old 15th February 2018, 07:41 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Wikipedia says you're right. The Boomtown Rats wrote a song about one of them.
Also we are getting much better at these mass shootings. 7 of the top 10 are in the last decade.
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Old 15th February 2018, 08:04 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why couldn't there be more than one cause? A culture that churns out sociopaths, ineffective mental illness diagnosis and treatment, in addition to easy availability of the efficient tools?
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Old 15th February 2018, 08:05 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
What could possibly have changed?
Another factor is the publicity these events are getting, both in the normal media and online. Certainly in the case of suicides, in the UK there are guidelines about how they are reported because if they get too much of the wrong sort of coverage there is a real chance of copycats.

ETA: It seems the reporting of school shootings would violate most if not all of these ten points. Given that the likely perpetrators are similarly troubled teens to those the suicide guidelines are concerned with, the media coverage does seem like a factor in the epidemic. That and the easy access to guns, of course.
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Old 15th February 2018, 08:06 AM   #107
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CNN: By the end of the rampage, 12 people were killed inside the building, two outside and one on the street. An additional two people shot at the school died at the hospital, Sheriff Scott Israel said. An undetermined number of others were injured, officials said.

The suspect used a .223 caliber, AR-15 style firearm in the shooting, which he bought in the past year after passing a background check, a source told CNN's Evan Perez. Kathie Blaine, a cousin of Cruz's mother, said he was adopted and she had never met him. His adoptive mother -- her cousin Lynda Cruz -- died in November of pneumonia while his father passed away years ago, according to Blaine.
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Old 15th February 2018, 08:11 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Oh, just to add perspective: 17 dead in this killing, only 13 dead at Columbine...and that scored a feature-length documentary.
I was living overseas when Columbine happened. It was big news all over the world. I was literally living in a mud hutin a jungle, and neighbors came by to ask about it.

Today, it's just another wednesday.

Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
I don't believe guns are the issue. Society is very sick today if children have no problem shooting up their school mates without remorse.
Guns are not the issue? Are you another one who believes he could have "found away" to do this with a knife or a car or a swimming pool or a pillow?

Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
If guns are the issue, why didn't we have this problem 40 years ago? Guns were just as available then.
Guns were the same back then but they weren't used to kill classmates.
Times change, but you are wrong anyway. 40 years ago a person close to me died from gun violence. The murder rate was higher back then, made much easier due to the prevalence of guns.

I do get the impression that semi-auto guns with detachable magazines have become much more prevalent since my childhood. I grew up shooting and hunting. I never saw anyone use anything semi-auto. It was all tubular magazines that required some sort of action between shots. The rate of fire could not possibly have matched what modern mass shooters have, the speed of reloading was also much much slower. All of which works fine for hunting and home protection. Semi-auto rifles existed back then, and some hunters used them, but they were far less common.

We have a problem here and now. The gun freaks have blocked all meaningful efforts at compromise that might effect change. They are running out of time to come to the table.

Nobody is coming for your stupid guns - yet. Keep avoiding responsibility, keep blocking efforts at regulation, and that might change.
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Old 15th February 2018, 08:20 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
He was living with "another family". The gun (AR15 type or style) was his and legally owned. The family he lived with required him to have the gun securely stored within the house and it was.
A responsible assault rifle owner then, until yesterday.

It still genuinely boggles my mind that this continues in the US.

I get that Americans love their guns. I can't understand the fascination, but to each their own.

To paraphrase some Jim Jeffries here, the only argument there is for having guns is "WE LOVE OUR GUNS" which to be fair is a solid argument, but it's the only one there is.

In the UK and in Australia there was a mass shooting and the government said. "That's it, no more guns for you" and we said "Yeah OK, fair enough" and we haven't had any mass shootings since.

A few years back Obama was in office, one of the most popular, and best qualified presidents ever. the inevitable mass school shooting happens, and the government said "Hey, maybe we should cut down on some of the guns a little" and the response was "HANDS OFF OUR GUNS!"

I can't get my head around the fact that rather than enact some sensible gun regulations, like for example, more and better background checks, and banning some classes of weapons. (You already draw a line at full automatics, why not move that line a little) or at the very least have a proper debate about it, any time gun control comes up it ends up as a very vocal group of people shouting "DON'T TAKE OUR GUNS!" and nothing is ever done.

How many people need to die before something changes?
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Old 15th February 2018, 08:42 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
........I can't get my head around the fact that rather than enact some sensible gun regulations, like for example, more and better background checks, and banning some classes of weapons.......
-Registering guns and making it an offense for allowing those guns to fall into the hands of children.

-Not allowing anyone under the age of 21 to own a weapon, or use a weapon outside a shooting range.

-Not allow the mentally ill access to guns.

-Allow judges at trials to make orders regarding banning individuals from holding weapons for x years or for life.
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Old 15th February 2018, 08:45 AM   #111
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Nessie - If you claim I'm wrong I'd expect you to follow up with figures proving that I'm wrong, not proving that I'm right.

40 years ago - 1978.

Me: "The US did have this problem 40 years ago"

1970s - 30
1980s - 39

Correct.

Me: "Not as bad as today, but still outrageously more prevalent than anywhere else in the Western world.

2010s - 143

Correct.

Me: "It's a black mark on US society that these are looked back on as 'the good old days' where guns weren't a problem."

1970s - 30
1980s - 39

Correct.

Unless, of course, you're maintaining that an average of 35 school shootings a year is insufficient evidence that guns were a problem.
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:07 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Has to be fake, I'm always told it is only white males who do this kind of spree killing.
https://www.adl.org/blog/florida-whi...r-nikolas-cruz

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Old 15th February 2018, 11:12 AM   #113
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What I think we need to find out is WHY these shootings are occurring at a much greater rate. But you can't make political hay out of that, so it goes little discussed.
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:14 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What I think we need to find out is WHY these shootings are occurring at a much greater rate. But you can't make political hay out of that, so it goes little discussed.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Max_Fishe...72659401560066
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:20 AM   #115
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
A responsible assault rifle owner then, until yesterday.

It still genuinely boggles my mind that this continues in the US.

I get that Americans love their guns. I can't understand the fascination, but to each their own.

To paraphrase some Jim Jeffries here, the only argument there is for having guns is "WE LOVE OUR GUNS" which to be fair is a solid argument, but it's the only one there is.

In the UK and in Australia there was a mass shooting and the government said. "That's it, no more guns for you" and we said "Yeah OK, fair enough" and we haven't had any mass shootings since.

A few years back Obama was in office, one of the most popular, and best qualified presidents ever. the inevitable mass school shooting happens, and the government said "Hey, maybe we should cut down on some of the guns a little" and the response was "HANDS OFF OUR GUNS!"

I can't get my head around the fact that rather than enact some sensible gun regulations, like for example, more and better background checks, and banning some classes of weapons. (You already draw a line at full automatics, why not move that line a little) or at the very least have a proper debate about it, any time gun control comes up it ends up as a very vocal group of people shouting "DON'T TAKE OUR GUNS!" and nothing is ever done.

How many people need to die before something changes?
I'm not sure that's entirely accurate, it makes it sound as though this was imposed on the British people 'from above' when the reality was that there was widespread support calling for tightening of the law and very little opposition to it (other than from Prince Phillip IIRC).
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:30 AM   #116
BobTheCoward
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Here is another chart.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...cs-maps-charts


(chart 6 for reference)

If the US cut gun ownership by 80%, and still managed to be the worst nation on the chart (by only reducing gun deaths by 30%), I think that would still be viewed as a massive accomplishment and people would worry about cultural factors later.
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:34 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I'm not sure that's entirely accurate, it makes it sound as though this was imposed on the British people 'from above' when the reality was that there was widespread support calling for tightening of the law and very little opposition to it (other than from Prince Phillip IIRC).
What I got out of it was that a horrific atrocity resulted in Australians clamoring for control, while multiple slaughters in the US result in gun owners not only asserting that gun availability is not the problem, but that more guns might be the solution. We in the US have a pathetic, stunted, and toxic culture which enshrines vigilante justice and discounts the rule of law.
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:34 AM   #118
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Hey, whaddya know, he was a Nazi terrorist.

I'll go find my surprised face.
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:36 AM   #119
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He's also an Elliot Rodger fan.

https://amp.thedailybeast.com/nikola...mpression=true
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:37 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Has Trump stuck his oar in yet? He's fast enough to demand action when an immigrant steps out of line. No doubt he'll send thoughts and prayers, which will, of course, solve the problem instantly.
Oh, yes.
Quote:
So many signs that the Florida shooter was mentally disturbed, even expelled from school for bad and erratic behavior. Neighbors and classmates knew he was a big problem. Must always report such instances to authorities, again and again!

Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) February 15, 2018
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