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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Florida incidents , school incidents , school shootings , shooting incidents

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Old 15th February 2018, 01:11 PM   #161
William Parcher
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Reports say that he had been in mental health treatment but had not been back to the clinic in more than a year.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:14 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
HuffPost is saying white supremacist.
So is just about every new outlet.

What is interesting is that in his shooting spree he did not..at least as far as we know...single out students because of race. So yeah, the guy was a white surpremist,indicative of a sick mind, but whether this was a direct motive for the shootings remains unknown at this point.

I am not trying to excuse White Supremists Groups, who I despise, just saying it is not yet known if this was a motivation for the shootings.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:14 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
How exactly does having tighter gun controls around what sort of citizens can legally obtain guns give the police more power to abuse?
This is how my home state of WA tried to do it. Register certain types of guns then allow the police to search the homes of the owners without a warrant. This would be an abuse of our protection against unreasonable searches.

Our Senators tried three times in eight years to push this bill through committee. The last time they tried even the liberal newspapers in Seattle thought it was screwed up. When questioned by reporters one Senator (he resigned in disgrace last year) admitted it might be unconstitutional, another claimed she never read the bill and the prime sponsor said he had intended to change it but didn't until called on it yet again.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:15 PM   #164
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Sadly, Feb 14th, 1929, is not the only "St Valentine's Day Massacre" in US History.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:17 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
HuffPost is saying white supremacist.
Yet his victims seem to have been random and almost entirely white. I'm not denying that he associated with white supremacy but how are we to link his actions yesterday with that ideology?

The victims...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-pictured.html
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:18 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by kali1137 View Post
I'm thinking it would have the opposite affect. Police would not be able to cry gun and shoot nearly as often if guns were no longer an every day thing.
They cry "gun" when there isn't one or claim "I felt threatened" to justify killing a person. There are several threads about this. Recall the poor man who was crawling towards the police begging not to be shot before he was murdered? Or the man who was swatted online and then killed by the police who were across the street from him? Guns could be banned and actual possession greatly reduced, but as long as a police officer is allowed to say he saw a gun or felt threatened, their victims will get no justice.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:21 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The conclusion is telling...

They concluded that the discrepancy, like so many other anomalies of American violence, came down to guns.

More gun ownership corresponds with more gun murders across virtually every axis: among developed countries, among American states, among American towns and cities and when controlling for crime rates. And gun control legislation tends to reduce gun murders, according to a recent analysis of 130 studies from 10 countries.

This suggests that the guns themselves cause the violence


... but will be handwaved away by gun nuts because "muh guns".
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:23 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
This.
Yeah, no. You're delusional if you think the police would spontaneously reform themselves if guns became more restricted.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:23 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
"About a year ago I saw him upset in the morning," student Brent Black told ABC News. "And I was like, 'yo what’s wrong with you?' And he was like 'umm, don’t know.' And I was like 'what’s up with you?' He's like 'I swear to God I'll shoot up this school.'"

A young man who keeps his promises. Also, smart move with the fire alarm. I don't think I've seen that before. ...
It's been done. Two kids triggered a fire alarm and picked kids off from some distance away as the kids fled the building.

Johnson and Golden now in jail until they turn 21.
Quote:
Golden pulled the fire alarm while Johnson took the weapons to the woods outside of the school. Golden then ran back to the woods where Johnson had taken the weapons. When children and teachers filed out of the school, the two boys opened fire. The boys killed four female students and one teacher and wounded ten others. Golden and Johnson attempted to run back to the van and escape, but police captured them. The boys evidently planned to run away, as they had food, sleeping bags, and survival gear in their van.
OMG, they're out already and one of them has tried to acquire a concealed weapons permit!
Quote:
Release
Johnson was released on his 21st birthday, August 11, 2005, having spent seven years in prison.[6]

Golden was released on May 25, 2007, also his 21st birthday, after spending nine years in prison.[7] Golden's precise whereabouts were unknown until he applied for a concealed weapon permit in Arkansas on October 7, 2008, under the name he now uses, Drew Douglas Grant. His application was denied by the Arkansas State Police, who noted that Golden had lied on the application about his previous residences and declared it was illegal for Golden to own or possess a firearm. The assumed name that Golden was using had been unknown up until this point due to a gag order, but police were able to tie Andrew Golden to Grant through fingerprint records during the background check for the permit.[8]
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:25 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
They cry "gun" when there isn't one or claim "I felt threatened" to justify killing a person. There are several threads about this. Recall the poor man who was crawling towards the police begging not to be shot before he was murdered? Or the man who was swatted online and then killed by the police who were across the street from him? Guns could be banned and actual possession greatly reduced, but as long as a police officer is allowed to say he saw a gun or felt threatened, their victims will get no justice.
This.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:29 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Yet his victims seem to have been random and almost entirely white. I'm not denying that he associated with white supremacy but how are we to link his actions yesterday with that ideology?

The victims...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-pictured.html
If I was the DA prosecution this case (although if ever there was an open and shut case as far as the suspect having done the crime this is one) I would not want to present his membership in a Neo Nazi group as a main motivation at this point.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:32 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's been done. Two kids triggered a fire alarm and picked kids off from some distance away as the kids fled the building.

Mitchell and Golden now in jail until they turn 21.
The Columbine shooters also tried something similar, but it didn't work. They had made homemade propane-tank bombs and put them in their cars, timed to go off during lunch period, assuming that the school would trigger the fire alarm and start evacuating once that happened. They were going to shoot the kids evacuating from the cafeteria and positioned themselves to do so.

But the bombs didn't go off. They had also set another one a few miles away to send emergency crews in the wrong direction - that didn't work either.

Entering the building to get at the kids was done only after the other elements of their plan didn't work.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:36 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This one seems unusual in that the shooter is still alive. What happens next?
Life in prison. Maybe the death penalty because it's Florida, but I'm predicting life without parole. Then maybe suicide while in jail?

Look at the outcomes in this Wiki list of school shootings.

Interesting also to see that there are many countries included. Maybe it is not just in the US this mostly happens. But we do have more.

1 - UK
3 - Brazil
5 - Canada
6- Germany
18 - China
39 - US
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:37 PM   #174
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The whole world is now being told he is a white supremacist. But the pictures of his victims show something else - he didn't target non-whites at all.

It looks like this spree killing was not motivated by white supremacy. Some explanation needs to be presented because it appears that he betrayed white supremacy in a very big dramatic way.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:39 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Yet his victims seem to have been random and almost entirely white. I'm not denying that he associated with white supremacy but how are we to link his actions yesterday with that ideology?

The victims...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-pictured.html
Anecdotal, but my experience with white supremicidts is that they are not really racist. They are freaking sociopaths, and are readily embraced by those groups.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:39 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Yet his victims seem to have been random and almost entirely white. I'm not denying that he associated with white supremacy but how are we to link his actions yesterday with that ideology?

The victims...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-pictured.html
Can't know for sure unless he tells the cops & they tell us, but I can say that my wife isn't very well liked by WS folk due to being married to a black guy. "Race traitors" & all that.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:40 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Sadly, Feb 14th, 1929, is not the only "St Valentine's Day Massacre" in US History.
Do you think that if 8 guys were shot now in one incident in the USA it would be remembered 90 years later? Nine years later? Nine months later?
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:42 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Look at the outcomes in this Wiki list of school shootings.

Interesting also to see that there are many countries included. Maybe it is not just in the US this mostly happens.
A number of those were planned attacks by organized terrorist groups, which is a bit different than what the U.S. has been experiencing. Cull out the terror groups, and the U.S. stands out even more.

ETA: For whatever it is worth, you have also mis-identified it as "School shootings". Not all were shootings. The Cologne school massacre was done with a homemade lance, a homemade mace, and a homemade flamethrower. The Anne Anne Kindergarten was a stabbing.

Last edited by crescent; 15th February 2018 at 01:48 PM. Reason: fix typos
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:43 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Yeah, no. You're delusional if you think the police would spontaneously reform themselves if guns became more restricted.
Why would anyone expect the police to reform themselves? This is a job for government, governance and oversight. And there is absolutely no reason why changing the gun laws would stop reform of the police in the way I describe.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:44 PM   #180
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And Surprise, Surprise, Surprise:
Alex Jones is already pushing conspiracy crap about the shootings.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:46 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The whole world is now being told he is a white supremacist. But the pictures of his victims show something else - he didn't target non-whites at all. .
Yeah, he just randomly showed up at a White Supremacist training camp. I mean, who hasn't had that happen?
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:46 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
A number of those were planned attacks by organized terrorist groups, which is a bit different than what the U.S. has been experiencing. Cull out the terror groups, and the U.S. stands out even more.
Call school shootings "terrorist", and there would be action immediately. School shootings are a way bigger problem than terrorism in the States. There's billions thrown at terrorism, and a few platitudes thrown at the school victim's families. It's very hard to reconcile the enormous reaction to perceived threats from abroad, and the utter indifference to far worse threats from within.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:51 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Why would anyone expect the police to reform themselves?
I dunno. Ask her. That's literally what she just said.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:53 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Yeah, he just randomly showed up at a White Supremacist training camp. I mean, who hasn't had that happen?
You need to read more carefully. No one is denying he was a white supremists,but we don't know yet if that was a major motivation. Seems to me if it was he would have singled out minorities ,which apparently he did not do.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:53 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Call school shootings "terrorist", and there would be action immediately.
Not really. Many different groups call many different things terrorism and those things remain unresolved.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:58 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You need to read more carefully. No one is denying he was a white supremists,but we don't know yet if that was a major motivation. Seems to me if it was he would have singled out minorities ,which apparently he did not do.
William Parcher is absolutely denying he was a white supremacist

Quote:
The whole world is now being told he is a white supremacist. But the pictures of his victims show something else
Now the next question is - is anyone claiming he did it because he is a white supremacist and was targeting minority victims? I haven't heard that from anyone except from the leader of the White Supremacist camp who suggested it was either feminists or (of course) the Jews.
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:03 PM   #187
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More about the white supremacy angle:

Quote:
While no motive has been described by police, Jereb speculated that Cruz may have allegedly committed the massacre out of hatred for Jews or women.

“There’s a very real sense of feminism being a cancer. That could’ve played into what he did, but we have female members of RoF,” Jereb said, adding that “we’re not a big fan of Jews. I think there were a lot of Jews at the school that might have been messing with him.”

Jereb said Cruz belonged to a RoF “cell” from Clearwater and drove up with members to Tallahassee to do paramilitary training. RoF was recently operating in Tallahassee and attempting to court new members, according to a local news report from last year. The group posts videos of training montages on the internet with members in fatigues brandishing weapons.

“I’m not trying to glorify it, but he was pretty efficient in what he did,” Jereb said. “He probably used that training to do what he did yesterday. Nobody I know told him to do that, he just freaked out.”

“I think somebody bought him a Mosin–Nagant, but that’s bolt action. He had a semi-automatic in the school,” Jereb said.

...

Two classmates said they saw Cruz wore a “Make America Great Again” hat.

“I saw him wear a Trump hat,” said Sebastian Gonzalez, a 19-year-old who graduated in 2017.

Ocean Parodie, a 17-year-old junior, said Cruz was politically extreme.

“For example, he would degrade Islamic people as terrorists and bombers. I've seen him wear a Trump hat,” Parodie said.

A Violent Life Online

Cruz wore the Trump hat in a photo on an Instagram account the company said belonged to him. Over his face he wore a red, white, and blue bandana. On that account and another one, Cruz posted photos of guns, knives, anti-Muslim slurs, and a picture of a toad he killed.

On YouTube, a person by the same name spewed hateful commentary about anti-fascists.
Linky.
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:03 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Not really. Many different groups call many different things terrorism and those things remain unresolved.
Unresolved isn't the issue. The terrorist issue gets enormous amounts of money, effort, legislation, action, personnel and so on thrown at it, and gets people from all across the political spectrum calling for action, supporting the curtailment of previously held freedoms, and so on......not to speak of the political imperative and acres of press coverage. School shootings? As the people are wont to say: not so much.
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:06 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
William Parcher is absolutely denying he was a white supremacist........
WP can speak for himself, but that's not how I read his post/s. I understood him to be questioning whether a white supremacist was acting as a result of his racial issues, or whether the motivation for this crime was something else. A white supremacist suspended from a school may have been angry with everyone in the school. Never mind whether they were white or black, they were all his enemy.
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:11 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Unresolved isn't the issue. The terrorist issue gets enormous amounts of money, effort, legislation, action, personnel and so on thrown at it, and gets people from all across the political spectrum calling for action, supporting the curtailment of previously held freedoms, and so on.....
No, it doesn't. Calling something terrorism does nothing to move opinion or get more funding on an issue. I've personally seen the following referred to as terrorism:

Global warming
Gay marriage
Secular government
Gun control
School shootings
Dangerous driving
Police brutality
Racism
Israeli settlements
Twitter trolls
Feminism/Mens rights

"Terrorism" is mostly a scare word people use to attempt to give their pet issue more legitimacy.
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:12 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
A number of those were planned attacks by organized terrorist groups, which is a bit different than what the U.S. has been experiencing. Cull out the terror groups, and the U.S. stands out even more.

ETA: For whatever it is worth, you have also mis-identified it as "School shootings". Not all were shootings. The Cologne school massacre was done with a homemade lance, a homemade mace, and a homemade flamethrower. The Anne Anne Kindergarten was a stabbing.
The US stands out, but are you claiming the Canadian school shootings were terrorist attacks?

What about in China?
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:14 PM   #192
The Great Zaganza
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So we can all agree that Antifa is to blame?
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:14 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
A number of those were planned attacks by organized terrorist groups, which is a bit different than what the U.S. has been experiencing. Cull out the terror groups, and the U.S. stands out even more.

ETA: For whatever it is worth, you have also mis-identified it as "School shootings". Not all were shootings. The Cologne school massacre was done with a homemade lance, a homemade mace, and a homemade flamethrower. The Anne Anne Kindergarten was a stabbing.
Fine, my bad.

Honestly it was just some background info for the thread, I wasn't trying to make a statement. The question was asked, what will happen now and the list noted outcomes of the perps.
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:16 PM   #194
MikeG
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
No, it doesn't. Calling something terrorism does nothing to move opinion or get more funding on an issue. I've personally seen the following referred to as terrorism:

Global warming
Gay marriage
Secular government
Gun control
School shootings
Dangerous driving
Police brutality
Racism
Israeli settlements
Twitter trolls
Feminism/Mens rights

"Terrorism" is mostly a scare word people use to attempt to give their pet issue more legitimacy.
Well words have meanings. If you subvert those meanings, then communication is problematic. Terrorism isn't a scare-word falsely used......it's a real thing, involving people with weapons.
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:16 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
The problem that rarely gets mentioned in these conversations is that the US is an outlier in another area, i.e. Police shootings and police brutality. As a group, the police, with their legal near immunity and lack of accountability, have shown themselves more irresponsibility and dangerous than individuals. Limiting access to guns would only serve to give the police more power to abuse and make them more dangerous.
No, American police are much more dangerous than police in civilized countries but are much less dangerous than armed Americans in general.
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:17 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
I don't understand the question. How does it not give them more power?
How does the current situation limit their power?
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:17 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The US stands out, but are you claiming the Canadian school shootings were terrorist attacks?

What about in China?
No and No. I never said that all of the massacres outside of the U.S. were terrorist related. I used the word "many", not "all".
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:18 PM   #198
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
More about the white supremacy angle:



Linky.
I find that suspiciously like a white supremacist trying to milk some publicity for his group out of the shooting. Maybe the kid went to a couple 'training' events. Until the police tell us they found all sorts of literature from the group or for the cause, this aspect stands as coincidental at the moment.

Though this kind of thing doesn't surprise me:
Quote:
Cruz always had his hair short and had a penchant for wearing patriotic shirts that “seemed really extreme, like hating on” Islam, Parodie said. The suspected gunman would also deride Muslims as “terrorists and bombers.”

“I’ve seen him wear a Trump hat,” the student said.
It's the idea Cruz was an active member of a supremacist group that I would like to see more evidence of.
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:23 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I find that suspiciously like a white supremacist trying to milk some publicity for his group out of the shooting. Maybe the kid went to a couple 'training' events. Until the police tell us they found all sorts of literature from the group or for the cause, this aspect stands as coincidental at the moment.

Though this kind of thing doesn't surprise me:It's the idea Cruz was an active member of a supremacist group that I would like to see more evidence of.
Maybe I'm the bigot, but I'm fine calling the person a white supremacist who only casually attended the white supremacists meetings.
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:26 PM   #200
crescent
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Maybe I'm the bigot, but I'm fine calling the person a white supremacist who only casually attended the white supremacists meetings.
"There's good people on both sides"

I agree with Bob. Sometimes you are what you do.
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