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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Florida incidents , school incidents , school shootings , shooting incidents

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Old 7th March 2018, 11:58 AM   #2841
crescent
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You don't think the accused might move the weapons? And I think a fourth amendment issue might come up if the authority to search is based on 'somebody says'.
Not if is that "somebody's" house. If my spouse or my own roommate threatens to kill me, I can absolutely allow the police to search my own house. Search warrants are often based on nothing more than "somebody says", if that somebody is a direct witness to crimes or threats related to the cause of the search warrant.

They may move the weapons, or maybe not.

Last edited by crescent; 7th March 2018 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 7th March 2018, 12:05 PM   #2842
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Not if is that "somebody's" house. If my spouse or my own roommate threatens to kill me, I can absolutely allow the police to search my own house. Search warrants are often based on nothing more than "somebody says", if that somebody is a direct witness to crimes or threats related to the cause of the search warrant.

They may move the weapons, or maybe not.
True. By the time a Red Flag law became enforceable, I would think the accused would be aware enough to re-hide the guns, knowing they were going to be taken. If registered, there would at least be cause to hold him on obstruction or something
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Old 7th March 2018, 12:12 PM   #2843
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
First step to implementing any Red Flag policy would be licensing and registration. Across the board, this has to happen in any gun control scenario.

Shooting at the gun confiscators? Virtually guaranteed. Not a job I'd like. I wonder if combining smartgun technology with a remote disabling feature is practical?
Probably not. Top of my head:
- A few hundred million guns currently on the street have no such device.
- these devices can be tampered with, gun parts swapped or bought out of state or country.
- these devices may fail when a gun is needed most. That will a be a big argument.
- people can make their own guns via parts purchased or custom milled. It may not be a big thing now, but I predict it would be.
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Old 7th March 2018, 12:13 PM   #2844
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It just seems to me that the mass murder psychotic types are exactly the kind who would hide guns to prevent Red Flag from taking them all away. These types would not even allow close family members to know that they had these hidden guns if they knew that Red Flag could take them away. "You can keep some guns at your house that people know about. But you must keep a few secretly stashed which are not known of by your spouse, parents, children, siblings, friends... nobody!"
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Old 7th March 2018, 12:33 PM   #2845
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
True. By the time a Red Flag law became enforceable, I would think the accused would be aware enough to re-hide the guns, knowing they were going to be taken. If registered, there would at least be cause to hold him on obstruction or something
Hold him in jail for obstruction when they don't "find all of his guns"? How long in jail and until what?

Sir, your girlfriend has Red Flagged you. That's why we are here for your guns. She says you have five guns but we can only find four. Where is the fifth gun?

I don't know.

We are going to keep you in jail until you tell us where is that fifth gun. We don't care if it takes 10 years, we will hold you until you tell us. Now where is that fifth gun?

I don't know.
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Old 7th March 2018, 12:49 PM   #2846
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What would Cruz have done if Florida had Red Flag?

He sort of always knew he wanted to be a school shooter. Maybe he wouldn't have talked about killing online if he knew Red Flag would take his guns. Maybe he would have deeply hidden the AR-15 knowing that Red Flag is always looming. Maybe if he anticipates Red Flag Dudes coming then he shoots up the school right now because it can't wait until tomorrow.
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Old 7th March 2018, 01:04 PM   #2847
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
It's trivially true, of course, that if we pass a law then the only people outside the law will be law evaders, but that does not by itself mean that the law is worthless. When we pass a speed limit, the only people who speed will be speeders, but that does not mean there are just as many speeders now as before.
Exactly. This is known as the fallacy of the perfect solution.
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Old 7th March 2018, 01:06 PM   #2848
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Hold him in jail for obstruction when they don't "find all of his guns"? How long in jail and until what?

Sir, your girlfriend has Red Flagged you. That's why we are here for your guns. She says you have five guns but we can only find four. Where is the fifth gun?

I don't know.

We are going to keep you in jail until you tell us where is that fifth gun. We don't care if it takes 10 years, we will hold you until you tell us. Now where is that fifth gun?

I don't know.
These are intended to be temporary. You might hold him, but only until the immediate threat has passed.
The battered spouse move out.
Or, the battered spouse removes the abuser's stuff from the house and changes the locks.
The restraining order is put in place.
The meds take effect
The mental health evaluation says that you are no longer a threat
That kind of thing.

Once the immediacy of the danger passes, the guns would be returned anyway, unless there was enough of a crime to trigger prosecution. Lots of restraining orders never result in prosecution. Red Flag holds are really just a different sort of restraining order, or an additional criteria added to the existing process of creating restraining orders.

And again, none of us know how many people would hide the guns. We just don't know that. They may not be aware that the red flag hold is even coming until the authorities show up to enforce it. That can lead to a temporary seizure of the guns, with the person still able to go through the courts to get them back.

It is not a perfect concept. It does not need to be. It has been working for decades in some places.

You can dig through the concept here:
Extreme Risk Protection Orders
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Old 7th March 2018, 01:22 PM   #2849
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I think that the Red Flag is a good idea and should be used and improved if possible.

I also think that it will be circumvented by some and that those cases will be made prominent (His guns were taken away but he had one more hidden from everyone). I also think that some of the guys who "come to remove the Red Flag guns" will get shot.
I think all of that is pretty much on point. It's a useful but imperfect tool that can prevent some but not all tragedies. After more states implement them we'll have more data in a few years and can make adjustments to the laws as needed. I'm assuming the Red Flag laws won't be exactly the same in every state so we'll be able to compare the different models after a while.
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Old 7th March 2018, 01:34 PM   #2850
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Hold him in jail for obstruction when they don't "find all of his guns"? How long in jail and until what?

Sir, your girlfriend has Red Flagged you. That's why we are here for your guns. She says you have five guns but we can only find four. Where is the fifth gun?

I don't know.

We are going to keep you in jail until you tell us where is that fifth gun. We don't care if it takes 10 years, we will hold you until you tell us. Now where is that fifth gun?
....
I'm pretty sure that's not how it would work. The girlfriend could be mistaken or maliciously wrong. The guy might have sold a gun and forgotten about it. It might have been stolen without his knowledge. What I suspect would happen would be that the police would conduct a thorough search -- either by the authority of the court order, or with the guy's permission, or with a warrant -- and would either find other guns or determine that there weren't any. Nobody would need to go to jail as long as they cooperate.
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Old 7th March 2018, 01:41 PM   #2851
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I'm pretty sure that's not how it would work. The girlfriend could be mistaken or maliciously wrong. The guy might have sold a gun and forgotten about it. It might have been stolen without his knowledge. What I suspect would happen would be that the police would conduct a thorough search -- either by the authority of the court order, or with the guy's permission, or with a warrant -- and would either find other guns or determine that there weren't any. Nobody would need to go to jail as long as they cooperate.
This sort of thing was in the news - today. Gotta watch out for the pretty ones, I guess.
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Old 7th March 2018, 03:45 PM   #2852
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
This sort of thing was in the news - today. Gotta watch out for the pretty ones, I guess.
Whoa... looks like Heather's a pretty mean drunk.
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Old 7th March 2018, 07:54 PM   #2853
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Florida has just passed a bill which includes raising the gun buying age from 18 to 21, and a ban on bump stocks, and allowing at least some teachers to be armed in school. The Governor can still veto the bill.
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Old 8th March 2018, 03:38 AM   #2854
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, you did. From your post #2728, for example:

Quote:
But even more importantly, where the vast mass of the US shootings each year are NOT spree shooting such as that in the Florida school, but are instead the sort of incidents I described above where a home owner has simply taken his guns and decided for various reasons to shoot at people …

Well, without reading the rest of your post – the above (which is what you accused me of saying earlier on this page), most definitely does NOT say what you claimed I had said! And it very obviously does not say it!

Your quote above simply talks about the vast mass of all the shootings each year (where spree shootings are only a tiny a fraction), and it just says that the vast majority of those shootings are of course (inevitably) cases where a gun owner has his guns in the home and simply takes the guns from his home to shoot at people …

... it does not say one single word about what you had accused me of when you were talking about what I had earlier said about the fact that many shooting cases each year will we inevitably be cases where the shooter was intoxicated or under the influence of drugs (which is inevitable amongst 100,000 shooting cases each year ... murders + suicides + woundings etc.).

OK, so just to repeat for absolutely clarity - that quote you just gave does NOT show in any way whatsoever what you had said about my earlier statements re. the involvement of drink or drugs.


Just for easy reference, here's that actual exchange with what each of us said -

Originally Posted by Thermal -
Apologies if it sounded like I was taking offense, I certainly don't. You seem to be saying that you think a large percentage of killings in the US are impulsive, fuelled by drinking or anger, and I really think that is not the case. While it is for sure possible, in practice the gun owners statistically do so very rarely. The gun problem in the US, and it's a big one, overwhelmingly revolves around suicide and street crime.

Reply by IanS -
No, I am not saying it's a large percentage of all the cases (I don't think I actually said that, did I?). I have no guess as to what percentage it might be. However, I am saying it's probably a large number of cases ... the point being that with so many US gun owners and so many shooting cases each year (not just all homicides, but also the much less reported cases of wounding or shooting where people might very easily have been wounded or killed), it's virtually certain amongst such large numbers that many of the cases will involve shooters who are either intoxicated or else high on drugs.
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:25 AM   #2855
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Times have changed...and not for the better.
It may be worth noting that the ACLU was praising the NRA not too long ago for changing the meaning of the 2nd Amendment from addressing militia rights to addressing individual rights.

I also hear that the NRA changed directions rather dramatically from being nonpartisan after the far right effectively staged a coup, at which point it began its concerted efforts to change the meaning of the 2nd Amendment. The NRA still does a lot of good stuff, even now, but it also does so much bad now, too.
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:33 AM   #2856
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Well, without reading the rest of your post – the above (which is what you accused me of saying earlier on this page), most definitely does NOT say what you claimed I had said! And it very obviously does not say it!

Your quote above simply talks about the vast mass of all the shootings each year (where spree shootings are only a tiny a fraction), and it just says that the vast majority of those shootings are of course (inevitably) cases where a gun owner has his guns in the home and simply takes the guns from his home to shoot at people …

... it does not say one single word about what you had accused me of when you were talking about what I had earlier said about the fact that many shooting cases each year will we inevitably be cases where the shooter was intoxicated or under the influence of drugs (which is inevitable amongst 100,000 shooting cases each year ... murders + suicides + woundings etc.).

OK, so just to repeat for absolutely clarity - that quote you just gave does NOT show in any way whatsoever what you had said about my earlier statements re. the involvement of drink or drugs.


Just for easy reference, here's that actual exchange with what each of us said -

Originally Posted by Thermal -
Apologies if it sounded like I was taking offense, I certainly don't. You seem to be saying that you think a large percentage of killings in the US are impulsive, fuelled by drinking or anger, and I really think that is not the case. While it is for sure possible, in practice the gun owners statistically do so very rarely. The gun problem in the US, and it's a big one, overwhelmingly revolves around suicide and street crime.

Reply by IanS -
No, I am not saying it's a large percentage of all the cases (I don't think I actually said that, did I?). I have no guess as to what percentage it might be. However, I am saying it's probably a large number of cases ... the point being that with so many US gun owners and so many shooting cases each year (not just all homicides, but also the much less reported cases of wounding or shooting where people might very easily have been wounded or killed), it's virtually certain amongst such large numbers that many of the cases will involve shooters who are either intoxicated or else high on drugs.
Hold up- I'm not accusing you of anything, and I don't know why this is an argument. If you think that drunk shootings are a big problem, which would you say is responsible for more deaths, guns or drunkenness? I'll go out on a limb and say it is alcohol, from drunk driving figures alone. So the problem, based on your reasoning, is alcohol available in homes. Vast masses of tequila bottles and whatnot. So shouldn't you be railing against the primary problem, being the home ownership of alcohol?

Last edited by Thermal; 8th March 2018 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 8th March 2018, 09:22 AM   #2857
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That's another thing .. when I handle gun while drunk, when I even have gun on me when I'm drunk here in Czech Reublic .. I loose my license, and I have to get rid of the gun (it's not confiscated right away, but I can't have it anymore).
In US, even felons are only denied the purchase, do I understand it correctly ? I mean the federal law. They can still have the gun if they had it before ? Can they be gifted the gun ? I couldn't find any details on that.
And just handling the gun while drunk on public is OK, as long as you don't actually cause damage, right ?
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Old 8th March 2018, 09:36 AM   #2858
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
That's another thing .. when I handle gun while drunk, when I even have gun on me when I'm drunk here in Czech Reublic .. I loose my license, and I have to get rid of the gun (it's not confiscated right away, but I can't have it anymore).
In US, even felons are only denied the purchase, do I understand it correctly ? I mean the federal law. They can still have the gun if they had it before ? Can they be gifted the gun ? I couldn't find any details on that.
And just handling the gun while drunk on public is OK, as long as you don't actually cause damage, right ?


Can I ask what the penalty for carrying an illegal firearm is in Czech?

Similarly, what are the penalties in each US state?

In both instances, is the legislation enforced with vigor?
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Old 8th March 2018, 09:42 AM   #2859
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
That's another thing .. when I handle gun while drunk, when I even have gun on me when I'm drunk here in Czech Reublic .. I loose my license, and I have to get rid of the gun (it's not confiscated right away, but I can't have it anymore).
In US, even felons are only denied the purchase, do I understand it correctly ? I mean the federal law. They can still have the gun if they had it before ? Can they be gifted the gun ? I couldn't find any details on that.
No owning a gun is illegal for a felon. Not just purchasing. Having guns while drunk would be a state offence and might be a felony or not, thus causing you to lose your guns. For example typically it is illegal to carry in a bar even if you are not drinking.
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Old 8th March 2018, 09:44 AM   #2860
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I was hoping that this thread could be about the Florida school shooting incident.
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Old 8th March 2018, 11:51 AM   #2861
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I was hoping that this thread could be about the Florida school shooting incident.
All such thread turn into YAGT* within the first few posts.

*Yet Another Gun Thread
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Old 8th March 2018, 12:02 PM   #2862
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I was hoping that this thread could be about the Florida school shooting incident.
Which is roughly the equivalent of "it's too early to talk about guns" which happens after every shooting. If Parkland was a terrible one off, something that rarely happened, you might have a pont. But when it is part of a pattern in your country you can't treat it as only being itself and not part of that pattern. The survivors certainly seem to recognise this. They aren't calling for a solution for their own school only, they want people to find some answers for the prevalence of gun violence in the USA which Parkland is a terrible example of.
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Old 8th March 2018, 12:16 PM   #2863
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
Which is roughly the equivalent of "it's too early to talk about guns" which happens after every shooting. If Parkland was a terrible one off, something that rarely happened, you might have a pont. But when it is part of a pattern in your country you can't treat it as only being itself and not part of that pattern. The survivors certainly seem to recognise this.
But we have threads about "let's talk about the American gun problems" in this subforum and I even bumped one up a few days ago. They are not consistently used for some reason.

I feel sorry for visitors to ISF who are interested in what skeptics have to say about this incident and click on the thread. They find out that we aren't talking about the incident. Not talking about it for pages and pages and pages.
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Old 8th March 2018, 12:22 PM   #2864
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No owning a gun is illegal for a felon. Not just purchasing. Having guns while drunk would be a state offence and might be a felony or not, thus causing you to lose your guns. For example typically it is illegal to carry in a bar even if you are not drinking.
Err... Felons can own guns legally in at least some states. I seem to be having difficulty finding a list more recent than 2002, though, on a quick search.

As a slight reminder of history, the NRA fought hard to directly put guns into the hands of felons, too, for that matter.
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Old 8th March 2018, 12:50 PM   #2865
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
But we have threads about "let's talk about the American gun problems" in this subforum and I even bumped one up a few days ago. They are not consistently used for some reason.

I feel sorry for visitors to ISF who are interested in what skeptics have to say about this incident and click on the thread. They find out that we aren't talking about the incident. Not talking about it for pages and pages and pages.
There is really not a lot in the incident itself to be skeptical about. A loony killed a lot of high school kids with a gun that was made specifically to kill a lot of people rather quickly. He has admitted that he did it. Not much room for skepticism there.
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Old 8th March 2018, 01:05 PM   #2866
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
There is really not a lot in the incident itself to be skeptical about. A loony killed a lot of high school kids with a gun that was made specifically to kill a lot of people rather quickly. He has admitted that he did it. Not much room for skepticism there.
There can be places for skepticism in a current event such as this. A variety of claims are made in the press and television. We already did have skeptical discussion of the Sheriff and the Deputy and what may or may not have happened there. I offered skepticism that bullets passed through walls in spite of a girl saying that it happened.

Anyway, a visitor might come to see what skeptics have to say even if they don't have skepticism on display - but then they see ongoing off-topic and derail.
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:37 PM   #2867
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Mod Warning Could you please walk the discussion back to the school shooting in Florida. If you want to have a general gun legislation discussion by all means open a thread for that purpose. Thank you.
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:58 PM   #2868
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Cruz withdraws not guilty plea, 'stands mute' on school shooting charges

Originally Posted by Sun Sentinel
Parkland school shooter Nikolas Cruz is withdrawing his not guilty plea and is instead “standing mute” in the face of 17 counts of murder and 17 counts of attempted murder, his lawyers said in court papers filed Thursday morning.

The legal strategy of standing mute is rarely employed and has the same immediate effect as a not guilty plea — the judge on the case will most likely enter a not guilty plea on the defendant’s behalf when he is formally arraigned, a hearing that has not yet been scheduled.

But by withdrawing the not guilty plea, the Broward Public Defender’s Office sends a signal consistent with what they’ve said since the early days of the case.

Two days after Cruz, 19, was accused of shooting dozens at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, Public Defender Howard Finkelstein said in interviews that guilt is not an issue in the case. Cruz would plead guilty in exchange for a sentence of life in prison, Finkelstein said.

While Finkelstein’s office had no comment on Thursday’s development, the decision to stand mute allows the defense to proceed without claiming to the public, the victims or the court that Cruz did not commit the crime...
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/br...308-story.html
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Old 8th March 2018, 03:05 PM   #2869
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FBI staffers knew warnings about Nikolas Cruz were related but closed the case, lawmakers learn

Originally Posted by Fox News
The FBI this week detailed to Congress a series of mistakes and missed opportunities to intervene before a gunman killed 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Florida -- including a revelation that staffers knew two warnings about suspect Nikolas Cruz were related, but still closed the case.

FBI Deputy Director David Bowdich made the comments in a closed briefing Tuesday with members of the House Judiciary and Oversight Committees.

In a summary released Wednesday to Fox News, Bowdich cited two tips that the FBI received about Cruz in September 2017 and January 2018 that were mishandled.

The 2017 tip alerted the FBI to a threatening YouTube comment, made by user Nikolas Cruz, which stated: “I’m going to be a professional school shooter.”

According to the summary, a FBI call taker “did not ask any standard investigative probing questions” about the 2018 tip.

The 2018 call taker was able to connect Cruz to the earlier call about the YouTube comment, but after discussing it with a supervisor, they decided not to pursue the matter and the case was closed...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/07...ers-learn.html
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Old 8th March 2018, 03:22 PM   #2870
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Parkland shooter’s text moments before rampage: ‘No big deal. Nothing bad’

Originally Posted by Palm Beach Post
The lawyer for a northern Broward County family that took in Parkland mass shooter Nikolas Cruz provided The Palm Beach Post on Wednesday with chilling details about texts between Cruz and the family’s teenage son in the minutes before Cruz opened fire...

Cruz was living with the Snead family on Loxahatchee Road in Parkland when he killed the 14 students and three adults at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School on Feb. 14.

Snead family attorney Jim Lewis told The Palm Beach Post on Wednesday:

Cruz texted the Sneads' teenage son, who was in class at Douglas, around 2 p.m., about 20 minutes before Cruz started shooting. Cruz asked what class the son was in and who the teacher was. The son said the teacher was one of the coaches. Cruz texted the son to ask the coach if he remembered Cruz. The coach was not one of the people Cruz shot.

Minutes later, Cruz texted to say he was going to a movie. Lewis said he then "made some kind of comment that, 'I've got something big to tell you.'" When the son pressed him, Cruz texted, "no big deal. Nothing bad."

Lewis said the texting stopped at 2:18 p.m. The last text was a single word: "Yo." The Snead teen texted back several times without a response. Then, the shooting started...
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/lo...PmNSPtT32hNhSO
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:04 PM   #2871
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Florida students are receiving death threats from responsible gun owners.....
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:10 PM   #2872
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Florida students are receiving death threats from responsible gun owners.....
I'm sure they all think the same ..
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:13 PM   #2873
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Disgraced Parkland deputy heard shots inside school building, told cops to stay away

Originally Posted by Miami Herald
Roundly vilified for not entering a Parkland high school during a mass shooting, Broward Deputy Scot Peterson insisted publicly that he believed that gunfire was happening outside on campus — not from inside the building.

But internal radio dispatches released by the sheriff's office Thursday show Peterson immediately fixated on Building 12 and even radioed that gunfire was happening “inside.”

And, just as school shooter Nikolas Cruz was fleeing the building after killing 17 people, Peterson warned his fellow officers to stay away — even as wounded students and staff lay inside.

BSO policy calls for deputies to engage an active shooter and eliminate the threat.

Do not approach the 12 or 1300 building, stay at least 500 feet away,” Peterson said over the radio, according to the records released Thursday...

Article includes a detailed timeline of events.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...204226584.html
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:17 PM   #2874
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Florida students are receiving death threats from responsible gun owners.....
This would be a very opportune time for the FBI to redeem itself by tossing these idiots in jail.
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:25 PM   #2875
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911 calls and other things released today...

Originally Posted by Miami Herald
...dozens made on the day that a former student went on a rampage inside the Parkland high school, was released Thursday by the Broward Sheriff’s Office along with a sampling of the 81 calls that came into their dispatch center on the afternoon of Feb 14. The police agency, whose response to the incident has become the source of national scrutiny, also released additional police reports and notes from calls to addresses associated with shooter Nikolas Cruz.

The release, made in response to a slew of media requests for information under Florida’s public records laws, included just 10 of the calls received by the sheriff’s Regional Communications 911 operators. The calls are all rolled into a 50-minute audio file and can be heard here...
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...204162569.html
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Old 8th March 2018, 10:33 PM   #2876
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Disgraced Parkland deputy heard shots inside school building, told cops to stay away




Article includes a detailed timeline of events.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...204226584.html
Whoa. That's much worse than I'd have expected. I'd been trying to reserve judgment and give the man some benefit of the doubt but this is pretty damning.
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Old 8th March 2018, 11:22 PM   #2877
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Disgraced Parkland deputy heard shots inside school building, told cops to stay away




Article includes a detailed timeline of events.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...204226584.html
So he knew it wasn't fireworks...
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:06 AM   #2878
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Florida students are receiving death threats from responsible gun owners.....
In addition to being told - "We make the rules, not you." by lawmakers.

We've been told we need to listen to the children and do what the children ask. Are there any children on this floor? Are there any children making laws? Do we allow the children to tell us that we should pass a law that says, 'No homework'? Or 'You finish high school at the age of 12' just because they want it so? No. The adults make the laws because we have the age. We have the wisdom. And we have the experience.
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:19 AM   #2879
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Yeah what do kids know eh? Thinking they should be able to go to school without the fear of being shot dead - silly-billies! When they grow up they'll understand that the deaths of their mates was necessary and a price well worth paying to ensure campaign funds keep flowing from the NRA and firearm manufacturers.
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:30 AM   #2880
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
That's the kind of attitude that the current generation of high schoolers are likely to remember with burning resentment when they get the vote.

Say, is there any precedent for someone telling Americans he doesn't have to listen to them because he has all the power and they get no choice in representation? It rings a distant bell.
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