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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Florida incidents , school incidents , school shootings , shooting incidents

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Old 13th March 2018, 06:34 AM   #2961
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If Captain Howdy's suggestion is that we regulate all states the way California is currently regulated, I would be all for that. What Howdy seems to miss is that most states currently have far less regulation than CA. Shifting the entire nation to that standard would be a huge change.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The only problem with implementing strict regulations like this is that this is the way we do it here in California already.
California has pretty good regulation, that's true

Quote:
Other states have more or less the same sort of regulations.
No, most don't. Most have far, far less regulation than CA.

Quote:
This is why it's important for people to know what they're talking about.
If you think all or most states are regulated much like CA, then this statement is just the pot calling the kettle black.

Last edited by crescent; 13th March 2018 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 13th March 2018, 11:34 AM   #2962
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I think that it's mental illness or insanity. These mass and spree killers seem to be insane people. I want to say they are "loose" like a dangerous animal outside of a cage and living amongst normal people.


Guns have always been common and easy to get in America. Always. But something has changed here in my lifetime. It wasn't like this before. We have so many shootings now and we have these mass shootings and school shootings with some regularity. It wasn't like this before.

It's as if people want to kill and do kill with much greater prevalence here now. There is too much of this mental sickness in America. I don't like what I have seen happen to my country. It seems to have become infested with killers and I don't know how or why it happened.
I think you shouldn't call mentally ill people 'insane'. Yes, this guy did a terrible thing, but you should start looking at the causes and not say straight up he is insane. Maybe he wasn't loved by anyone. What I'm trying to say is that the problem lies deeper than just 'insane people'. We should start fixing those problems.

I think that second part of the problem is that guns are allowed. I live in The Netherlands and we are not allowed to carry and own guns. We haven't had any big shooting like this since the Second World War. So that's straight up evidence that making guns forbidden will fix the problem to a certain extent.

Btw. I totally agree that that guy was insane but that won't fix anything. You need to look at the reasons he did it.
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Old 13th March 2018, 11:44 AM   #2963
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Prosecutors will seek death penalty in Parkland school massacre

Originally Posted by CNN
Prosecutors will seek to put Nikolas Cruz to death for carrying out last month's massacre at a Parkland, Florida, high school, they announced in court filings Tuesday.

A Broward County grand jury last week indicted the 19-year-old gunman on 17 counts of premeditated murder in the first degree and 17 counts of attempted murder in the first degree.

In its filing, the prosecution said that, among the aggravating factors spurring its decision, were that Cruz knowingly created a risk of death for many people, his crime was aimed at hindering "any government function or the enforcement of laws" and that the shooting was "especially heinous, atrocious or cruel."

Another factor: "The capital felony was a homicide and was committed in a cold, calculated and premeditated manner without any pretense of moral or legal justification."...
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/13/us/ni...lty/index.html
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:41 PM   #2964
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Pro AR-15 people are prone to ssaying that they aren't 'military weapons' because they are only semi-auto'.

There are lots of semi auto weapons used by the military. Up until the SA-80 was introduced the British Army main Battle Rifle was Semi-Auto and it was seen as a good thing that the average squaddie couldn't go using all his ammo in pointless full auto shooting.
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:20 PM   #2965
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Pro AR-15 people are prone to ssaying that they aren't 'military weapons' because they are only semi-auto'.

There are lots of semi auto weapons used by the military. Up until the SA-80 was introduced the British Army main Battle Rifle was Semi-Auto and it was seen as a good thing that the average squaddie couldn't go using all his ammo in pointless full auto shooting.
Prior to the SA-80, the British Armed forces had the L1A1, which was a British version of the Belgian FN-FAL, a gas operated SLR.




In its factory form, the L1A1 could be fired on fully automatic, however AFAIK, all the versions issued to the Army and RAF had the necessary parts for full-auto removed, so it was effectively a semi-automatic assault rifle
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:48 PM   #2966
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Prior to the SA-80, the British Armed forces had the L1A1, which was a British version of the Belgian FN-FAL, a gas operated SLR.




In its factory form, the L1A1 could be fired on fully automatic, however AFAIK, all the versions issued to the Army and RAF had the necessary parts for full-auto removed, so it was effectively a semi-automatic assault rifle

Which (at least until recently, it would seem) would be a contradiction in terms according to the NRA and its fans.

CaptainHowdy isn't up to date on the latest memo.
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:54 PM   #2967
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There was a little flicker of hope that this mass shooting would make a difference. It has already gone out.
There is still the opportunity for our FBI to step up their game. They should have intervened to stop Cruz somehow. They are admitting to doing wrong here with this incident. And not just the FBI as there is responsibility with local authorities and social services and therapists.

This shooting may change things in those areas.
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:57 PM   #2968
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Pro AR-15 people are prone to ssaying that they aren't 'military weapons' because they are only semi-auto'.

There are lots of semi auto weapons used by the military. Up until the SA-80 was introduced the British Army main Battle Rifle was Semi-Auto and it was seen as a good thing that the average squaddie couldn't go using all his ammo in pointless full auto shooting.
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Prior to the SA-80, the British Armed forces had the L1A1, which was a British version of the Belgian FN-FAL, a gas operated SLR.




In its factory form, the L1A1 could be fired on fully automatic, however AFAIK, all the versions issued to the Army and RAF had the necessary parts for full-auto removed, so it was effectively a semi-automatic assault rifle

And my (limited) understanding is that British Army* doctrine is still that semi-automatic, aimed fire is what is most useful for most battle situations.



ETA: *And most other Western militaries
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Old 13th March 2018, 03:08 PM   #2969
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Prior to the SA-80, the British Armed forces had the L1A1, which was a British version of the Belgian FN-FAL, a gas operated SLR.




In its factory form, the L1A1 could be fired on fully automatic, however AFAIK, all the versions issued to the Army and RAF had the necessary parts for full-auto removed, so it was effectively a semi-automatic assault rifle
Indeed, we had them in the ships armoury right through my service, an epic weapon.
There are stories that in the Falklands Argentinian SLRs were acquired by British troops because of their full auto.
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Old 13th March 2018, 03:10 PM   #2970
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And my (limited) understanding is that British Army* doctrine is still that semi-automatic, aimed fire is what is most useful for most battle situations.



ETA: *And most other Western militaries
Yes it is, the SA80 has a full auto capability but standard training and doctrine is to use semi auto aimed fire.
Cadet versions of the SA80 are semi auto only.
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Old 13th March 2018, 04:47 PM   #2971
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
If Captain Howdy's suggestion is that we regulate all states the way California is currently regulated, I would be all for that. What Howdy seems to miss is that most states currently have far less regulation than CA. Shifting the entire nation to that standard would be a huge change.



California has pretty good regulation, that's true


No, most don't. Most have far, far less regulation than CA.


If you think all or most states are regulated much like CA, then this statement is just the pot calling the kettle black.
Indeed, if lack of precise information and terminology is, as some here have so outspokenly suggested, a disqualification for offering opinions, I, as a resident of Vermont, might modestly suggest that opinions about State gun laws might be considered to lie in that forbidden zone.
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Old 13th March 2018, 05:15 PM   #2972
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Originally Posted by stresbal View Post
I think you shouldn't call mentally ill people 'insane'. Yes, this guy did a terrible thing, but you should start looking at the causes and not say straight up he is insane. Maybe he wasn't loved by anyone. What I'm trying to say is that the problem lies deeper than just 'insane people'. We should start fixing those problems.

I think that second part of the problem is that guns are allowed. I live in The Netherlands and we are not allowed to carry and own guns. We haven't had any big shooting like this since the Second World War. So that's straight up evidence that making guns forbidden will fix the problem to a certain extent.

Btw. I totally agree that that guy was insane but that won't fix anything. You need to look at the reasons he did it.
Cruz was diagnosed with autism early in his life. He has also been diagnosed with depression, anger issues and learning disabilities. He had told his therapist that he has fantasies of blood and violence.

He seemed to do nothing about concealing his mass shooting nor make any gestures towards a police shootout or suicide. It's like he just wanted to shoot a lot of people and then go to prison forever. Like he didn't care anything about anything other than fulfilling his life's goal of a mass killing.

His attorneys may go for an insanity defense with his autism being featured as something that prevents him from experiencing normal empathy or the fear of grave consequences.
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Old 13th March 2018, 06:11 PM   #2973
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Ugh, if they do that, it's going to make life twice as miserable for all the autistic people who aren't homicidal, which is the vast majority. It'll be like all the goth kids who got beaten up after Columbine when the media labeled Harris & Klebold as goths.

And empathy is not something autistic people don't have, it's just harder for them to learn it. This confuses some people, since it used to be listed as a defining characteristic. Even my daughter had her diagnosis changed to pervasive developmental disability by one doctor, because she showed empathy. I wanted to shake him and explain just how hard we'd worked on that concept throughout her childhood.

I'd be more inclined to look at a diagnosis of sociopathy, but of course I have no access to his records, it's just what I've observed.
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Old 13th March 2018, 06:26 PM   #2974
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I certainly think he could be helped, and that he communicated his poor state quite clearly. This was call for attention, IMHO not different from demonstrative suicide.
It doesn't change much. Main problem is he shouldn't have had access to guns, at the very least. If for nothing, suicide was could also be high risk for him.
But I think he's not one in a million, like for example Breivik. That man is indeed wired differently. But not this one. There might be thousands like him. Also this group is even more susceptible to copycatting.
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:25 PM   #2975
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Teacher's gun goes off at California school; three students injured

Quote:
SEASIDE, Calif. —
A teacher who also serves as a reserve police officer accidentally fired a gun inside a Seaside High School classroom Tuesday, police said, and three students were injured.

Dennis Alexander was teaching a course about gun safety for his Administration of Justice class when his gun went off at 1:20 p.m.

Alexander was pointing his gun at the ceiling when it fired. Pieces of the ceiling fell to the ground.

A news release from the Seaside Police Department said no one suffered "serious injuries." One 17-year-old boy suffered moderate injuries when fragments from the bullet ricocheted off the ceiling and lodged into his neck, the student's father, Fermin Gonzales, told KSBW.

The teacher had just told the class that he wanted to make sure his gun wasn't loaded, when the gun fired, according to Gonzales.

"It's the craziest thing. It could have been very bad," Gonzales said.

The teacher was about to use the gun for a demonstration about how to disarm someone, according to Gonzales.

Everyone in the classroom was stunned, and the teacher, who is a reserve officer for the Sand City Police Department, apologized.

But no one at the school checked to make sure that all of the students were uninjured, Gonzales said. The school day resumed as normal, and Seaside Police Department officers launched an investigation.

The 17-year-old boy's parents were shocked when he returned home with blood on his shirt and bullet fragments in his neck. The student's parents rushed him to a hospital for X-rays.

"He's shaken up, but he's going to be OK," Gonzales told KSBW. "I'm just pretty upset that no one told us anything and we had to call the police ourselves to report it."
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Old 13th March 2018, 09:45 PM   #2976
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Indeed, we had them in the ships armoury right through my service, an epic weapon.
Oh yes. I was trained on the FN-FAL (wooden stock & grip). It was a very reliable weapon... jams and hard-extractions were a rarity. The only trouble I had was because I shoot left handed; manually cocking after each mag change meant pulling the cocking handle with my support hand directly back toward my nose rather than using the pistol hand toward the right ear the way right hander's did. It also meant the ejected casings flew across my field of vision... quite distracting during rapid fire.

I fired a few weapons in my time in the service. I was fortunate enough (if that is right word) to have still been in when the FN was replaced with the piece of crap known as the Steyr AUG.

In any case, it is this style of weapon that most people refer to as an "Assault Rifle... semi automatic, capable of firing rounds as rapidly as the shooter pulls the trigger. This sort of weapon ought to be banned from sale and illegal to own. (it is both here in NZ, and in Australia.... we don't have school shootings).
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:49 PM   #2977
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There was a little flicker of hope that this mass shooting would make a difference. It has already gone out.
I was never quite so optimistic, but I do think that we could see more states adopting red flag laws/GVROs. Not all of them, though. That's the most I could see coming out of this.
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Old 13th March 2018, 11:04 PM   #2978
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Cruz was diagnosed with autism early in his life. He has also been diagnosed with depression, anger issues and learning disabilities. He had told his therapist that he has fantasies of blood and violence.

He seemed to do nothing about concealing his mass shooting nor make any gestures towards a police shootout or suicide. It's like he just wanted to shoot a lot of people and then go to prison forever. Like he didn't care anything about anything other than fulfilling his life's goal of a mass killing.

His attorneys may go for an insanity defense with his autism being featured as something that prevents him from experiencing normal empathy or the fear of grave consequences.

Autism is not an absolute condition. It is on a scale that ranges from mild aspergers to severe autism. It certainly is not an excuse or explanation for mass murder.
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:12 AM   #2979
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The teacher just needed more guns. One gun loaded for defense, one gun unloaded for demonstration and another loaded gun incase someone takes one of the others.
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:13 AM   #2980
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
If Captain Howdy's suggestion is that we regulate all states the way California is currently regulated, I would be all for that. What Howdy seems to miss is that most states currently have far less regulation than CA. Shifting the entire nation to that standard would be a huge change.



California has pretty good regulation, that's true


No, most don't. Most have far, far less regulation than CA.


If you think all or most states are regulated much like CA, then this statement is just the pot calling the kettle black.
I know that every state has different regulations. But there isn't anywhere in the state where all you have to do is pass an instant background check and walk out of the store with an "assault" rifle, as the NYT seems to suggest.

More examples of the anti-gun nutters not knowing what they're talking about: Last night I heard on the radio that there's going to be a big anti-gun rally in downtown Los Angeles where one of the organizers said they were going to be protesting against "assault rifles."

And earlier today, professional crisis-actor David Hogg tweeted:

Quote:
"What if we taxed guns, made a gun registration process for them and had licensing for owners just like cars? We could use that money to help harden soft targets like schools and many other places with bulletproof windows and doors. #guntax for #GunSenseNow"
Guns are already taxed. Guns are already registered. If you want to use a gun to kill an animal, you already need a license. Sure. Let's make the process of using a gun at least as onerous as we do cars so every sixteen year old can use one!

And retrofitting schools with bulletproof windows and doors? How many students at Parkland would still be alive if the school had bulletproof windows and doors? How many victims of Las Vegas would bulletproof windows and doors saved?

The idea is to get guns off the streets. Make being a citizen a prerequisite to gun ownership. Immediately, thirteen million people in this country wouldn't be able to possess a gun. Extend that rule to only native-born citizens to make naturalized citizens ineligible so something like 20 million or so more people couldn't own a gun. Make housing projects gun-free zones. Require anybody on public assistance to give up their guns. There are hundreds of ways of making our cities safer that will work better than demanding laws that have already been passed or banning guns that are already banned.
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:07 AM   #2981
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Guns are already taxed.
Normal retail sales tax?

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Guns are already registered.
Really? Any gun you buy is registered? Where, exactly?

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
If you want to use a gun to kill an animal, you already need a license.
And if you don't declare an intention to kill an animal, you never need a license. As with the above instances, you're pointing out highly specific and narrow instances in which "something something involving a gun meets a licensing requirement" for instance and using that to declare that the whole license argument spurious because "guns already require licenses". Obviously the person is proposing licensing of more than only people specifically who plan to hunt; obviously the person is proposing a gun/owner registration system more akin to that for motor vehicles rather than some serial number paper trail that is subject to extensive gaps; obviously the person is proposing a tax that is different and more targeted than the same sales tax everything is already charged at the point of sale.
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Old 14th March 2018, 04:23 AM   #2982
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Am I the only one wondering why students in a high school were getting this sort of demonstration?

Quote:
The teacher was about to use the gun for a demonstration about how to disarm someone, according to Gonzales.
And if this was a regular part of classes, why was it necessary to use a real pistol when a rubber or plastic weapon would be safer for all concerned?
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Old 14th March 2018, 04:30 AM   #2983
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
obviously the person is proposing a tax that is different and more targeted than the same sales tax everything is already charged at the point of sale.
Actually, the person in question is 17 years old. He's probably short on specifics.

What he knows is that last month he had to flee a building and then attend some funerals because a kid who they all knew was dangerous could very easily obtain an AR-15. He isn't quite sure what to do about that, but he knows it's pretty messed up.
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Old 14th March 2018, 05:42 AM   #2984
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh yes. I was trained on the FN-FAL (wooden stock & grip). It was a very reliable weapon... jams and hard-extractions were a rarity. The only trouble I had was because I shoot left handed; manually cocking after each mag change meant pulling the cocking handle with my support hand directly back toward my nose rather than using the pistol hand toward the right ear the way right hander's did. It also meant the ejected casings flew across my field of vision... quite distracting during rapid fire.

I fired a few weapons in my time in the service. I was fortunate enough (if that is right word) to have still been in when the FN was replaced with the piece of crap known as the Steyr AUG.

In any case, it is this style of weapon that most people refer to as an "Assault Rifle... semi automatic, capable of firing rounds as rapidly as the shooter pulls the trigger. This sort of weapon ought to be banned from sale and illegal to own. (it is both here in NZ, and in Australia.... we don't have school shootings).
I don't follow. The cocking handle is on the left on an FN. It would be your pistol hand cocking if you shoot left handed.

AUG is a good weapon.
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Old 14th March 2018, 05:45 AM   #2985
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Again 'professional crisis actor'?
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Old 14th March 2018, 06:08 AM   #2986
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
professional crisis-actor David Hogg
How can you be sure he doesn’t just do it as a hobby?
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Old 14th March 2018, 06:25 AM   #2987
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Pro AR-15 people are prone to ssaying that they aren't 'military weapons' because they are only semi-auto'.

There are lots of semi auto weapons used by the military. Up until the SA-80 was introduced the British Army main Battle Rifle was Semi-Auto and it was seen as a good thing that the average squaddie couldn't go using all his ammo in pointless full auto shooting.
Well, they aren't "assault rifles" if they don't fire full auto.

The push is often that the AR-15 is an "assault rifle", and it isn't.

The term "assault weapon" seems to mainly center around looks, and not function.

The AR-15 is just an ordinary semi-auto rifle, just like any other common semi-auto rifle.

How you would ban it, and not any other rifles, I don't know. We did that once, with odd definitions that also centered around looks, and not function.

Limiting semi-auto rifles to 10 round detachable magazines is okay with me, but I can't see how it would have any effect on a Nick Cruz. It seems like it's just a feel good idea.

And still few are talking about pistols, which account for nearly all of the firearms deaths in the USA, and which are far more concealable than an AR-15, and come with similar capacity magazines.
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Old 14th March 2018, 06:28 AM   #2988
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
...The idea is to get guns off the streets. Make being a citizen a prerequisite to gun ownership. Immediately, thirteen million people in this country wouldn't be able to possess a gun. Extend that rule to only native-born citizens to make naturalized citizens ineligible so something like 20 million or so more people couldn't own a gun. Make housing projects gun-free zones. Require anybody on public assistance to give up their guns. There are hundreds of ways of making our cities safer that will work better than demanding laws that have already been passed or banning guns that are already banned.
Just a wild guess...you wouldn't be affected by any of these proposed restrictions, right? Let's see...foreigners, people on public assistance, people living in housing projects...yep, that's a pretty impartial segment being targeted.
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Old 14th March 2018, 06:33 AM   #2989
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
.....professional crisis-actor David Hogg........
What does this mean?


Quote:
........The idea is to get guns off the streets. Make being a citizen a prerequisite to gun ownership. Immediately, thirteen million people in this country wouldn't be able to possess a gun. Extend that rule to only native-born citizens to make naturalized citizens ineligible so something like 20 million or so more people couldn't own a gun. Make housing projects gun-free zones. Require anybody on public assistance to give up their guns. There are hundreds of ways of making our cities safer that will work better than demanding laws that have already been passed or banning guns that are already banned.
Translates as: Everyone but me, and people like me.
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Old 14th March 2018, 06:40 AM   #2990
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post

Guns are already taxed. Guns are already registered. If you want to use a gun to kill an animal, you already need a license. Sure. Let's make the process of using a gun at least as onerous as we do cars so every sixteen year old can use one!
.
A hunting license is not a gun license, most gun owners don't hunt and will never buy a hunting license. Most states don't require gun registration. You know that regs vary from state to state, but you keep citing California regulations as if thy apply nationwide.

Use the crisis actor bit one more time and you go on my ignore list. Save that B.S. for the ct forum where it belongs.

Last edited by crescent; 14th March 2018 at 06:43 AM.
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Old 14th March 2018, 07:09 AM   #2991
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Normal retail sales tax?



Really? Any gun you buy is registered? Where, exactly?



And if you don't declare an intention to kill an animal, you never need a license. As with the above instances, you're pointing out highly specific and narrow instances in which "something something involving a gun meets a licensing requirement" for instance and using that to declare that the whole license argument spurious because "guns already require licenses". Obviously the person is proposing licensing of more than only people specifically who plan to hunt; obviously the person is proposing a gun/owner registration system more akin to that for motor vehicles rather than some serial number paper trail that is subject to extensive gaps; obviously the person is proposing a tax that is different and more targeted than the same sales tax everything is already charged at the point of sale.
So you’re arguing that the number of guns in circulation and their availability to ordinary citizens isn’t a problem, as long as the government keeps better records?
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Old 14th March 2018, 07:11 AM   #2992
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Get back in that school because you cannot spell.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/im...t1924_copy.jpg
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Old 14th March 2018, 07:28 AM   #2993
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just a wild guess...you wouldn't be affected by any of these proposed restrictions, right? Let's see...foreigners, people on public assistance, people living in housing projects...yep, that's a pretty impartial segment being targeted.
I’m trying to prevent people who have no business owning a gun from owning a gun. People who can’t afford rent or food have no business owning a gun.
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Old 14th March 2018, 07:31 AM   #2994
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I’m trying to prevent people who have no business owning a gun from owning a gun. People who can’t afford rent or food have no business owning a gun.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
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Old 14th March 2018, 07:31 AM   #2995
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I’m trying to prevent people who have no business owning a gun from owning a gun. People who can’t afford rent or food have no business owning a gun.
And naturalized citizens?

eta: you are proposing income requirements for the privilege of gun ownership? Go on...

Last edited by Thermal; 14th March 2018 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 14th March 2018, 07:49 AM   #2996
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I’m trying to prevent people who have no business owning a gun from owning a gun. People who can’t afford rent or food have no business owning a gun.
Why not just say “black people”? Wouldn’t that be easier?
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Old 14th March 2018, 07:56 AM   #2997
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
How can you be sure he doesn’t just do it as a hobby?
It seems like it's all he does these days...well these last thirty days. In between homework and grieving or whatever.
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Old 14th March 2018, 08:02 AM   #2998
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Lots of school walkouts going on right now.

Student walkouts sweep the US: Live updates
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Old 14th March 2018, 08:06 AM   #2999
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Why not just say “black people”? Wouldn’t that be easier?
Are you saying that all black people are on public assistance?
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Old 14th March 2018, 08:11 AM   #3000
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
OK. let's hear the argument that people who cannot afford to own a gun should still be able to own a gun.
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