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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Florida incidents , school incidents , school shootings , shooting incidents

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Old 16th February 2018, 03:25 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Assuming attempt at humour? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sadly, I doubt it.
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Old 16th February 2018, 03:44 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Assuming attempt at humour? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you're not yet acquainted with Henri's body of work, the search function will help... As LK suggests, he's likely entirely serious.
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Old 16th February 2018, 03:44 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Other who are willing to use vehicles, bombs and fire to kill are evidence that guns are not needed. It is the willingness to commit evil deeds and make others suffer that is the primary cause in my opinion.

Well, vehicles, at least, are acknowledged as potentially dangerous and are therefore required to be licensed, registered and insured.
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Old 16th February 2018, 03:45 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
The 22lr cartridge used in those rifles is lethal past 200 yards. The fortner action is fairly rapid for a bolt gun. A larger capacity mag (usual if 5 rounds) can be easily built for a biathlon rifle and a scope can be used. Don't underestimate how destructive a person can be if they put their mind to it even if they are limited to something much less powerful than a 5.56 nato round fired in a semi-auto rifle.
I get that; but it seems to me that a tremendous amount of the problem is that people have such unrestricted access to weapons that don't require any mind-to-it-putting in order to be immensely destructive. If what is now being said here is true and the ROF leader is completely fabricating his stories of this killer having gone on training situations with them, we have a situation where a person with an AR and no training whatsoever has killed 17 and injured more than a dozen. This guy didn't build special "high capacity mags" or other mods to make a normally low-powered weapon more lethal; the thing stock off the shelf is mass-murder in a box.
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Old 16th February 2018, 03:49 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Assuming attempt at humour? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Can you imagine a country that would allow teachers to carry auto weapons to use on their students?

It may seem like humour but there are those that advocate arming the teachers.
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Old 16th February 2018, 03:51 AM   #326
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The Florida shooting will bring changes:
for example, we can expect that pulling the fire alarm will become SOP for future killing sprees.
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Old 16th February 2018, 03:57 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
........This guy didn't build special "high capacity mags" or other mods to make a normally low-powered weapon more lethal; the thing stock off the shelf is mass-murder in a box.
It won't come as a shock to anyone that something designed to kill humans has proven effective.
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Old 16th February 2018, 03:59 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The Florida shooting will bring changes:
for example, we can expect that pulling the fire alarm will become SOP for future killing sprees.
I predict it will also herald huge fences, armed guards at gates, and metal detectors at the entrance of all schools, helping to produce a nice warm welcoming atmosphere conducive to learning and the passing on of American values.
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:00 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It won't come as a shock to anyone that something designed to kill humans has proven effective.
Yes but you could bash someone with a rock so what's the point of regulating nuclear weapons?

Or something.
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:02 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Yes but you could bash someone with a rock so what's the point of regulating nuclear weapons?

Or something.
Not to mention swimming pools.......
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:03 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I predict it will also herald huge fences, armed guards at gates, and metal detectors at the entrance of all schools, helping to produce a nice warm welcoming atmosphere conducive to learning and the passing on of American values.
I believe your prediction will prove correct. It's ironic that this "freedom" is looking more and more like distopian sci-fi.
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:04 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Well, vehicles, at least, are acknowledged as potentially dangerous and are therefore required to be licensed, registered and insured.
Not just that, but there are age limits before you are legally allowed to access them, tests of competence, and the threat of debarring if the bureaucracy isn't complied with. I don't hear huge tidal waves of anguish and protest at these restrictions of freedom.

It tickles me that a country bars young people from buying a beer at the same time as getting hot under the collar about any suggestion that youngsters be stopped from buying a semi-automatic assault rifle. When I say "it tickles me", what I really mean is it makes me feel nauseous.
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Last edited by MikeG; 16th February 2018 at 04:05 AM.
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:04 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I believe your prediction will prove correct. It's ironic that this "freedom" is looking more and more like distopian sci-fi.
But you still get to buy a semi auto at the corner store so it's all good.
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:05 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I predict it will also herald huge fences, armed guards at gates, and metal detectors at the entrance of all schools, helping to produce a nice warm welcoming atmosphere conducive to learning and the passing on of American values.
This will be expensive.
Luckily, school budgets are overflowing, so it won't be a problem to cut some minor programs to pay for added protection.
Who needs maths anyways?
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:20 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Can you imagine a country that would allow teachers to carry auto weapons to use on their students?

It may seem like humour but there are those that advocate arming the teachers.
Heck, there are those that advocate arming the students.
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:27 AM   #336
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On the upside the US has made sure that no one can get their hands on dangerous Kinder eggs and their hasn't been a mass haggis killing spree in centuries
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:28 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why do we desire to reduce suicides?
Basic human compassion?

Suicide is a permanent resolution to a temporary problem.

It causes a lot of other problems though for the people left behind. From the mental state of the person who discovers the scene, to the family and loved ones of the deceased now having to sort out that persons affairs and picking up the bills for funeral expenses etc.

There are almost always better options in life to sort out your problems than killing yourself.
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:29 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Basic human compassion?

Suicide is a permanent resolution to a temporary problem.

It causes a lot of other problems though for the people left behind. From the mental state of the person who discovers the scene, to the family and loved ones of the deceased now having to sort out that persons affairs and picking up the bills for funeral expenses etc.

There are almost always better options in life to sort out your problems than killing yourself.
I think I may have identified a weak point in your plan...
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:36 AM   #339
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You don't need compassion in order to want to minimize the number of suicides in a society: premature death affects much more than the individual.
Even in a society in which suicide doesn't hold a stigma (like Japan), the understanding is that the suicidee will not leave people behind who depend on them.
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:40 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So not criminal then? Is recreational shooting a "very valid reason" to own a gun?
Just to point out that here in the UK that sport, work or leisure are all valid reasons for obtaining a firearms licence.

Of course what type of gun you can get hold of is restricted heavily and most of the UKs ~2million registered guns are rifles or shotguns. In a population of
~65million.
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:41 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
On the upside the US has made sure that no one can get their hands on dangerous Kinder eggs and their hasn't been a mass haggis killing spree in centuries
Yes, but the US is special, remember? And us furriners just don't understand because reasons.
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:49 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Just to point out that here in the UK that sport, work or leisure are all valid reasons for obtaining a firearms licence.

Of course what type of gun you can get hold of is restricted heavily and most of the UKs ~2million registered guns are rifles or shotguns. In a population of
~65million.
Apart from certain exempt people in Northern Ireland 'Self Defence' is never a valid reason to own a gun in the UK.
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:51 AM   #343
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And of course pistols (handguns) aren't allowed at all, to anyone other than the police and military.
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:51 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Just to point out that here in the UK that sport, work or leisure are all valid reasons for obtaining a firearms licence.

Of course what type of gun you can get hold of is restricted heavily and most of the UKs ~2million registered guns are rifles or shotguns. In a population of
~65million.
I've lost track of the number of times I've pointed out (on various platforms, not so much here where people tend to be better informed generally) that guns aren't actually banned in Britain that there are actually millions of legal guns in private hands and used regularly. It sometimes amazes me how many British people even don't realise this, I consider it a credit to the system we have and the culture of those in our communities who enjoy recreational shooting.
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:53 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I predict it will also herald huge fences, armed guards at gates, and metal detectors at the entrance of all schools, helping to produce a nice warm welcoming atmosphere conducive to learning and the passing on of American values.
They'll be quite difficult to distinguish from prisons, visually and philosophically.
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:54 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
And of course pistols (handguns) aren't allowed at all, to anyone other than the police and military.
And certain exempt people in Northern Ireland
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:58 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I've lost track of the number of times I've pointed out (on various platforms, not so much here where people tend to be better informed generally) that guns aren't actually banned in Britain that there are actually millions of legal guns in private hands and used regularly. It sometimes amazes me how many British people even don't realise this, I consider it a credit to the system we have and the culture of those in our communities who enjoy recreational shooting.
Indeed. I was an avid shooter for a while. I used to have a semi auto 22, a Lee Enfield Mk4 a 22 target rifle and several air rifles over the years.
I used to target shoot and go after rabbits and wood pigeon. Guisborough Estates, Zetland Estates and Skelton Castle Estate all issue permits to shoot small stuff and farmers are quite happy to let you go after rabbit, crow and pigeon with permission of course.
I tried clay shooting for a while but never got in to it.
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Old 16th February 2018, 05:13 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Can you imagine a country that would allow teachers to carry auto weapons to use on their students?

It may seem like humour but there are those that advocate arming the teachers.
Funny you should say that, but the NRA representative interviewed on the Beeb was pushing just this idea. Because an armed teacher would have really helped in this situation.
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Old 16th February 2018, 05:25 AM   #349
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Am I right in thinking the USA has (say since 1900) been slightly more likely to have mass shootings than most of the rest of the world and that this is probably due to the availability of guns?
With freer access to news and information this higher trend entered the cultural consciousness and started feeding off itself and the freer and faster information got, the bigger the bites, the more it grew. There are obviously multiple factors affecting the specific number of incidences, but is this the general idea?
Proper gun laws will obviously help, but it won't get the idea out of the cultural consciousness and the USA stats down to the world average.
Even with similar legislation, due to the gun culture, the USA will probably always have many more guns than other comparable countries and therefore more incidences of gun violence. You would probably need excessively strict legislation to get the per capita figures down to 30 from 100, much more so than other countries currently at around 30.

You have to make the general population happier, so they don't consider these things.
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Old 16th February 2018, 05:43 AM   #350
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Cheaper and more freely available semi auto rifles have added to the problem as well. It's far easier to kill a lot of people when you have a semi auto with a 30 round mag than it is with a bolt action rifle or pistol.
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Old 16th February 2018, 05:52 AM   #351
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The USA does not only have more people shooting other people in general, they are also much more effective at it, since they have "better" guns.

That's just great...
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Old 16th February 2018, 06:16 AM   #352
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I had a .22 semiauto rifle from Sears back in the late '70s. IIRC it held 20 shorts or 17 longs. If I had it, it wasn't expensive. It would easily kill in a classroom sized area with a head shot. Fired pretty damned fast and accurate. Never got around to killing anyone. Hell, I was even well below the poverty level, income disparity was huge, and I was bullied at times.
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Old 16th February 2018, 06:46 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Other who are willing to use vehicles, bombs and fire to kill are evidence that guns are not needed. It is the willingness to commit evil deeds and make others suffer that is the primary cause in my opinion.
How often do people use vehicles, bombs, and fire to kill kids in schools compared to guns, I wonder?


Regardless, what do you think the solution is?
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Old 16th February 2018, 06:54 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I've previously pointed you to the Australian legislation where, yes, sport and hunting are both valid reasons to own a gun.
Yes I know. I was responding to a person who said he/she was Canadian; I had not seen a one of them describe gun owners in general as weird.
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Old 16th February 2018, 06:57 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
.... This guy didn't build special "high capacity mags" or other mods to make a normally low-powered weapon more lethal; the thing stock off the shelf is mass-murder in a box.
Does anyone here believe that lack of a specific type of rapid fire gun is going to keep a killer like this one away from schools where he can kill with near impunity? I don't; it may inhibit some though
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Old 16th February 2018, 07:01 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Does anyone here believe that lack of a specific type of rapid fire gun is going to keep a killer like this one away from schools where he can kill with near impunity?
If the converse is true, then killers like this would be carrying out mass killings using other types of weapons in other countries. What statistics are there for school massacres carried out with single shot pistols, IEDs, knives or vehicular assault, for example, in nations other than the USA, and how do their numbers compare with those due to rapid fire guns in the USA? Would restricting the availability of specific types of weapon therefore reduce the incidence or the death rate significantly?

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Old 16th February 2018, 07:15 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If the converse is true, then killers like this would be carrying out mass killings using other types of weapons in other countries. What statistics are there for school massacres carried out with single shot pistols, IEDs, knives or vehicular assault, for example, in nations other than the USA, and how do their numbers compare with those due to rapid fire guns in the USA? Would restricting the availability of specific types of weapon therefore reduce the incidence or the death rate significantly?

Dave
Gun ownership is so obviously the primary driver that focusing on other causes (lumped together as culture) is is laughable.
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Old 16th February 2018, 07:20 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I predict it will also herald huge fences, armed guards at gates, and metal detectors at the entrance of all schools, helping to produce a nice warm welcoming atmosphere conducive to learning and the passing on of American values.
There already are American schools with armed guards and metal detectors but I'm not aware of any prison-style fences. These are generally in high crime areas. The problem is not so much about spree shooters but rather that students are gang members (organized crime syndicates) and specifically target rival gang members. The weapons are guns, knives and machetes. All can be prevented with the metal detectors at entranceways.
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Old 16th February 2018, 07:21 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Does anyone here believe that lack of a specific type of rapid fire gun is going to keep a killer like this one away from schools where he can kill with near impunity? I don't; it may inhibit some though
Yes.

Well, a "specific type of gun" has to be actually a wide range of rapid fire guns, and there would still be some people who find other ways to work out how to do mass killings, but yes. I think restrictions on guns would cut down the number of killings.

From what we know of this shooter in particular, I think this shooting is one of the ones most likely to be prevented.
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Old 16th February 2018, 08:03 AM   #360
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Does anyone here believe that lack of a specific type of rapid fire gun is going to keep a killer like this one away from schools where he can kill with near impunity? I don't; it may inhibit some though
The AK-15 assault rifle is responsible for so many atrocities. Time to take it off the shelves. Nobody needs an assault rifle and its ridiculous Rambo-style connotations that appeal to lunatics and extremists.
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