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Old 21st February 2018, 01:31 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
My understanding is that this is only true up to a certain muzzle velocity?

(And that they have to be coloured in such a way they aren't too realistic)
No they don't have to be coloured in a certain way. That is for 'Airsoft' pistols that fire platic balls, they have to be at least 50% bright colour like red or orange. They are considered 'Replica Firearms' and are far more rigidly controlled that air weapons that fire steel and lead pellets to far higher velocity.


One of those stupid quirks of law.
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:33 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Claims, furthermore, than seem to come from people who have never set foot in a UK pub in their lives.
Set foot in a pub?

good idea, I'm off for a pint.
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:37 PM   #363
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The following are handguns of various types. I suspect since there are "Black Powder", "B/P", "Muzzel loading" and "Shot" that each police force has submitted how they record the various weapons and the Home Office has just compiled a list.

Air Pistol 3
Black Powder Pistol 21
Black Powder Revolver 35
B/P Pistol 33
B/P Revolver 33
Cap and Ball Pistol 4
Cap and Ball Revolver 17
Handgun 69
Long barrel pistol (over 60cms) 227
Long Barrel Pistol/Shot Pistol Combination 3
Long barrel revolver (over 60 cms) 49
Mini Flare Pistol 23
Muzzle Loading Pistol 188
Percussion Pistol 10
Pistol 37
Pistol 23895
Pistol - air 183
Pistol Calibre Rifle 3
Pistol - moderated 3
Revolver 23619
REVOLVER 47
Revolver (2 shot) 1
Shot Pistol 527
Shot Pistol (2 shot) 12
Shot Pistol (single shot) 2
Tranquillising Pistol 16
Very Pistol 157

The air pistols of those of a type where the pressure for firing the pellet is high enough that they are compatible with other firearms. Various signalling pistols and the Very Pistol are types of flare gun.

There will be many which are obsolete handguns for which there is no ammo of the calibre the gun takes which is commonly available. But since they are post 1939, they go on a firearms licence.

The ones for which I am not sure is the 23,619 revolvers and 23,895 pistols. It is possible that is how many obsolete handguns there are. But, looking at just long barrelled handguns for sale in the UK;

https://www.guntrader.uk/Guns-For-Sale/

there are 89 and many do not have barrels long enough to be one of the 227 long barrelled pistols which are licenced. So many could be those and other similar handguns.
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:56 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Exactly For purposes of licensing it isn't a firearm although a capacity 3 or more cartridges makes it a Firearm.
I am more than aware of that.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:18 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The ones for which I am not sure is the 23,619 revolvers and 23,895 pistols. It is possible that is how many obsolete handguns there are. But, looking at just long barrelled handguns for sale in the UK;

https://www.guntrader.uk/Guns-For-Sale/

there are 89 and many do not have barrels long enough to be one of the 227 long barrelled pistols which are licenced. So many could be those and other similar handguns.
I think it very likely that the "revolvers" are either cap-and-ball or long-barrelled revolvers, not specifically described as such. The "pistols" will probably be long and/or long-barrelled .22 LR semi-autos, but might have some legal revolvers included.It's worth noting that of those 89 long-barrelled pistols on Guntrader, 53 are semi-autos all in .22LR, while the 36 revolvers break down as:

.22 LR [8]
.357 [1]
.357 Mag [1]
.357 Magnum [7]
.38/.357 Magnum [12]
.44 [1]
.44 Magnum [3]
.45 ACP [1]
.9mm RF [2]

Meanwhile there are 77 categorised as "Pistol (Black Powder)," most of which are cap-and-ball revolvers. To confuse matters further, the simple "pistol" category includes some cap-and-ball revolvers. I think this more than illustrates the wide availability of muzzle-loading revolvers and long or long-barrelled pistols.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:44 PM   #366
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So in summary, we've established that the availability to the general public in the UK of guns such as those used in many USA mass child murders is pretty much nil.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:49 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
So in summary, we've established that the availability to the general public in the UK of guns such as those used in many USA mass child murders is pretty much nil.
Aye
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:51 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
So in summary, we've established that the availability to the general public in the UK of guns such as those used in many USA mass child murders is pretty much nil.
It has been that way since the 1998 Firearms Amendment Act was passed, which banned the AR15 type rapid/multiple fire guns so beloved of many Americans, to do their mass shootings with.
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Old 21st February 2018, 03:15 PM   #369
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Unless you buy a 22c AR-15. Smith and Wesson do a good UK legal one.
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Old 21st February 2018, 04:16 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
So in summary, we've established that the availability to the general public in the UK of guns such as those used in many USA mass child murders is pretty much nil.
Sounds about right.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 02:00 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Description on the FAC would depend on the individual police force issuing the FAC.
According to that link above (here):
"
Furthermore, the categorisation of the type of firearm is as declared by the applicant on the licensing application form.
"

Isn't that the applicant doing the description, and not the police force then? The force would simply be concurring that "pistol" is a fair description?
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Old 22nd February 2018, 02:23 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
According to that link above (here):
"
Furthermore, the categorisation of the type of firearm is as declared by the applicant on the licensing application form.
"

Isn't that the applicant doing the description, and not the police force then? The force would simply be concurring that "pistol" is a fair description?
That makes sense. Can you imagine the poor desk officer trying to persuade a gun collector that his particular gun fits in a generic category?
"But this is the 1922 model a 3.1 with the McGuffin chamber? Are you seriously suggesting...."
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Old 22nd February 2018, 03:09 AM   #373
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The way the form is laid out, there are columns for the applicant to fill for;

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...2017_-_PDF.pdf

Calibre, type, Make, Serial Non, Reason

The calibre is important because only some guns are suitable for certain reasons (large calibres are not for shootings rabbits, small are no suitable for the reason of deer stalking.) The make and serial number are important to identify the gun (if it is stolen, to keep an accurate record of what guns the applicant has). The reason is important because that is a legal requirement (for firearms). The type is the least important and so long as the applicant has clearly not misdescribed a shotgun as a pistol, whatever they put is fine.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 04:55 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
So in summary, we've established that the availability to the general public in the UK of guns such as those used in many USA mass child murders is pretty much nil.
Yes, regardless of the amount of money anyone has.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 22nd February 2018 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 04:57 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Unless you buy a 22c AR-15. Smith and Wesson do a good UK legal one.
Yes, the Sun went a bit rabid on that one after Sandy Hook:

The Scum: Massacre guns on sale in the UK

"LETHAL assault rifles like the one used in America’s Sandy Hook school massacre are being LEGALLY sold in Britain.

A Welsh-based firm is advertising a Ruger SR-22 semi-automatic as a “clone” of an AR-15, the gun loner Adam Lanza used to kill 26 people.

Shocked campaigners are demanding new gun controls after The Sun discovered British dealers selling the weapons.

A similar gun to Lanza’s intimidating Bushmaster AR-15 is being sold by Arundel Militaria, based in Knighton, Powys."

Obviously that's a hell of a stretch....

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Old 22nd February 2018, 04:58 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The way the form is laid out, there are columns for the applicant to fill for;

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...2017_-_PDF.pdf

Calibre, type, Make, Serial Non, Reason

The calibre is important because only some guns are suitable for certain reasons (large calibres are not for shootings rabbits, small are no suitable for the reason of deer stalking.) The make and serial number are important to identify the gun (if it is stolen, to keep an accurate record of what guns the applicant has). The reason is important because that is a legal requirement (for firearms). The type is the least important and so long as the applicant has clearly not misdescribed a shotgun as a pistol, whatever they put is fine.
It's almost certainly the data from the "type" section in the FOI request.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 05:54 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, the Sun went a bit rabid on that one after Sandy Hook:

The Scum: Massacre guns on sale in the UK

"LETHAL assault rifles like the one used in America’s Sandy Hook school massacre are being LEGALLY sold in Britain.

A Welsh-based firm is advertising a Ruger SR-22 semi-automatic as a “clone” of an AR-15, the gun loner Adam Lanza used to kill 26 people.

Shocked campaigners are demanding new gun controls after The Sun discovered British dealers selling the weapons.

A similar gun to Lanza’s intimidating Bushmaster AR-15 is being sold by Arundel Militaria, based in Knighton, Powys."

Obviously that's a hell of a stretch....
There was also a bit of a stir in the media last summer about shotgun certificates being issued to under 18s. It didn't gain much traction though in the absence of any evidence of an actual problem being caused by the children to whom the certificates have been issued.

As a non gun owner I think our laws work well and as things stand at the moment I'd be against any attempt to further tighten the law for legally owned guns as I think that that might provoke gun owners to push back against current laws (to be clear here I mean legally, not 'cold dead hands') and I suspect that as a lobbying group they would punch well above their weight. I don't think rocking the boat unnecessarily is an anyone's interest.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 06:39 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
As a non gun owner I think our laws work well and as things stand at the moment I'd be against any attempt to further tighten the law for legally owned guns as I think that that might provoke gun owners to push back against current laws (to be clear here I mean legally, not 'cold dead hands') and I suspect that as a lobbying group they would punch well above their weight. I don't think rocking the boat unnecessarily is an anyone's interest.
You are probably right about shotguns, and maybe for hunting rifles. Not so sure about target shooters, which I would guess is the other main category. When handguns were (effectively) banned, those giving up their guns didn't seem to have much clout, and were often having to fight to get the basic compensation for the guns they were relinquishing; they got no compensation for all the other ancillary equipment that was now useless to them, especially if they gave shooting completely, which many did.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 08:03 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You are probably right about shotguns, and maybe for hunting rifles. Not so sure about target shooters, which I would guess is the other main category. When handguns were (effectively) banned, those giving up their guns didn't seem to have much clout, and were often having to fight to get the basic compensation for the guns they were relinquishing; they got no compensation for all the other ancillary equipment that was now useless to them, especially if they gave shooting completely, which many did.
I'd heard that compensation was generally reasonable, but my only information was second hand so I'd accept being wrong. But also it was in the immediate shadow of Dunblane so the handgun owners would have had little chance of drumming up sympathy.

Today, baring something awful happening, the drive for stronger legislation is virtually non existant, and yes, I was thinking far more of the country sports people. You look at the mobilisation that pro fox hunting groups managed, the country sports gun owners could almost certainly get them on side while the reverse wasn't necessarily true (shooters tend to favour a quick and painless kill and a target you can eat) in addition to their own numbers and the beaters who may not themselves be gun owners.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 08:24 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I can buy one at any time in the local country sports shop on the market place.

A replica of a Glock or Colt. They field strip like the real thing and the magazine holds a mini co2 cartridge andsteel ball ammo. Or a more traditional air pistol with lead pellets, or a pre-charge target pistol.
That is not my point. You cannot under any circumstances buy "one" at any time under the circumstances you describe just anywhere in the UK. This thread encompasses the UK therefore your local conditions do not apply.

I assume you do not need me to explain things in more detail given your knowledge of the subject.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 08:31 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It's "right" for 89% of the population, and in the context of the list under discussion.
I thought we were discussing the UK and not just a proportion of it. What an interesting concept.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 10:17 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
There was also a bit of a stir in the media last summer about shotgun certificates being issued to under 18s. It didn't gain much traction though in the absence of any evidence of an actual problem being caused by the children to whom the certificates have been issued.
Yes, I also recall a story maybe ten years of so back about parents in Bristol who were complaining that the a new building/site included a .22 range for the school's cadet force. Naturally it was the parents of the kids who weren't cadets who were complaining, who didn't seem to get that the ones who were cadets were probably the last ones they should be worrying about with regards to firearms.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 10:20 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I thought we were discussing the UK and not just a proportion of it. What an interesting concept.
That things are different for 11% of the population doesn't affect the other 89%. For the vast majority of the UK population, acquiring an air pistol or rifle is as easy as walking into a gun shop and buying one over the counter.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 10:38 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Air pistols and compressed gas pistols need no permit or permission. You can walk in to a shop and buy one.
I understand that this changed recently for Scotland
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Old 22nd February 2018, 12:46 PM   #385
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A license is needed in Scotland for air weapons. That came in just after I retired, so I have no actual experience.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 12:48 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A license is needed in Scotland for air weapons. That came in just after I retired, so I have no actual experience.
In Canada a normal Firearms Permit is required for air rifles that shoot projectiles over a certain energy level (Combination of speed of the projectile and it's mass)

In such that most air rifles require the same permit as a hunting rifle.

Exceptions would be very low powered BB guns ... and the lower powered AirSoft guns.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 03:06 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
That things are different for 11% of the population doesn't affect the other 89%. For the vast majority of the UK population, acquiring an air pistol or rifle is as easy as walking into a gun shop and buying one over the counter.
That is not my point as I've previously said. **** knows where you are going with this and why you refuse to acknowledge the fact that things are different dependent upon where you live in the UK. The availability of firearms in the UK is what we are discussing and this has developed in the thread to include a discussion around different types of weapon including air rifles and pistols.

The "vast majority of the population" would not be legally allowed to bring their easily bought air rifle or pistol into Scotland without first obtaining a visitors permit. If they decided to move here they would need a certificate.

Got a firearm or shotgun certificate and want to visit Northern Ireland with your weapon? No problem at all.

Want to visit NI with an air rifle under certificate.... not gonna happen unless you have applied, in advance, for a visitors permit

All the foregoing goes towards the discussion at hand.


Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I understand that this changed recently for Scotland
I'm going blue in the face trying to make this point.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A license is needed in Scotland for air weapons. That came in just after I retired, so I have no actual experience.
I've being trying to bring this fact to the attention of on or two posters.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 04:29 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
So in summary, we've established that the availability to the general public in the UK of guns such as those used in many USA mass child murders is pretty much nil.

Only if one, for some odd reason, wants to address all of the off topic posts and not the OP.

The OP says that if you have enough cash you can acquire a gun on the street in the UK.

That claim is 100% rock solid.

So all the people who do not like the truth have to do is try and move the goal posts for the OP.

It is quite sad how many people in this thread have an agenda so clear that it obvious that they either choose to ignore or want to subterfuge what the claim in the OP even says. And then there are certain people who one would really think would stay on topic even if their agenda is as engrained as the others. For someone like that to partake in subterfuge really looks bad on us all no matter what side of the issue we are on.

Quite obvious when they cannot separate "USA mass child murders" from the thread we are actually in...
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Old 22nd February 2018, 04:42 PM   #389
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And after 388 posts, he's wrong, as are you.

You can, however, walk into a shop and buy one, quite cheaply and with minimal complications.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 04:44 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
The claim that legal guns are irrelevant to this thread is false.

Firstly, the thread title is availability of 'guns' period.

Secondly, this thread was not started by the first post, it is a split thread from the discussion of the Florida shooting due to a comment I made causing a derail. That comment was about a situation I am currently involved with which has certain similarities to the actions of to Cruz prior to the shooting and expressed my relief that this person didn't have access to firearms, if the fact that the shooter being discussed and compared to possessed his guns legally wasn't a big enough clue I reiterated the point in my next post.

By the time this thread was split off it already contained posts about legal guns, illegal guns, and the number of legal gun owners in the UK. The fairly arbitrary split point doesn't mean that post retroactively defines the terms of the discussion.

Just posting this again for our hit and run would be thread censor.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 05:57 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Only if one, for some odd reason, wants to address all of the off topic posts and not the OP.

The OP says that if you have enough cash you can acquire a gun on the street in the UK.

That claim is 100% rock solid.
Say it again, because we all know that if you repeat absolute crap often enough it will eventually become fact.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 12:12 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
That is not my point as I've previously said. **** knows where you are going with this and why you refuse to acknowledge the fact that things are different dependent upon where you live in the UK. The availability of firearms in the UK is what we are discussing and this has developed in the thread to include a discussion around different types of weapon including air rifles and pistols.

The "vast majority of the population" would not be legally allowed to bring their easily bought air rifle or pistol into Scotland without first obtaining a visitors permit. If they decided to move here they would need a certificate.
What happens in Scotland in this regard has no bearing on what happens in the England & Wales, which encompasses the vast majority of the UK. The vast majority of residents in England & Wales - even those who already or may in the future own air weapons - would have no interest in taking them to Scotland. They have the whole of England & Wales to possess them in without licensing.

Quote:
Got a firearm or shotgun certificate and want to visit Northern Ireland with your weapon? No problem at all.

Want to visit NI with an air rifle under certificate.... not gonna happen unless you have applied, in advance, for a visitors permit
What happens in Northern Ireland in this regard has no bearing on what happens in the England & Wales, which encompasses the vast majority of the UK. The vast majority of residents in England & Wales - even those who already or may in the future own air weapons - would have no interest in taking them to Northern Ireland. They have the whole of England & Wales to possess them in without licensing.

Quote:
All the foregoing goes towards the discussion at hand.
No it doesn't. The fact that air weapons are treated differently in Scotland and Northern Ireland are minor exceptions in population terms.

I would note that in discussing firearms crime, the figures for England & Wales are frequently used as a proxy, quite simply because they are a) easier to find, b) they cover the vast bulk of the UK population, and c) while Scotland and NI have progressively higher rates, they don't make the UK's rates significantly higher than E&W's.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 12:15 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post

You can, however, walk into a shop and buy one, quite cheaply and with minimal complications.
Buy one what, exactly?
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Old 23rd February 2018, 01:09 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Buy one what, exactly?
Toblerone
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Old 23rd February 2018, 01:43 AM   #395
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Not since they made them smaller I won't. Thieving bastard.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 01:49 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Not since they made them smaller I won't. Thieving bastard.
Presumably you've given up all chocolate, tea, jam, honey, soft drinks and snack bars too, then?
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Old 23rd February 2018, 02:02 AM   #397
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They've made tea smaller?
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Old 23rd February 2018, 02:04 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
They've made tea smaller?
They're putting less tea in tea bags. We're in danger of diverting a thread. I suggest we return to the subject of firearms in the UK, which probably aren't any smaller than they were.
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Last edited by MikeG; 23rd February 2018 at 02:09 AM.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 02:08 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Only if one, for some odd reason, wants to address all of the off topic posts and not the OP.

The OP says that if you have enough cash you can acquire a gun on the street in the UK.

That claim is 100% rock solid.

So all the people who do not like the truth have to do is try and move the goal posts for the OP.

It is quite sad how many people in this thread have an agenda so clear that it obvious that they either choose to ignore or want to subterfuge what the claim in the OP even says. And then there are certain people who one would really think would stay on topic even if their agenda is as engrained as the others. For someone like that to partake in subterfuge really looks bad on us all no matter what side of the issue we are on.

Quite obvious when they cannot separate "USA mass child murders" from the thread we are actually in...
And my one white crow would enough if all you were interested in was making some pedantic irrelevant point to the overall topic I. e. no matter how much cash I have I could not get a firearm such as those used in USA massacres on the street.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 02:46 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
In Canada a normal Firearms Permit is required for air rifles that shoot projectiles over a certain energy level (Combination of speed of the projectile and it's mass)

In such that most air rifles require the same permit as a hunting rifle.

Exceptions would be very low powered BB guns ... and the lower powered AirSoft guns.
The limits in England & Wales are - rather quaintly - 6 foot-pounds for air pistols, and 12 foot-pounds for air rifles, so 8.13 and 16.27 joules respectively. Anything more powerful needs to go on a Firearms Certificate, but as the previously posted list suggests, there are only around 5,100 of them in E&W, while there are reckoned to be 1-2 million such "low-powered" air weapons across the UK as a whole.
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