ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 17th February 2018, 03:18 AM   #41
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 81,656
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
My sole disagreement with this is that the chances are that you have met plenty of people who have seen, and even own, guns legally in the UK as we do have far more licensed guns for vermin control, sports and hunting (particularly shotguns) than most people realise. Because the guns are safely and securely stored when not in use and are quite genuinely tools or sports equipment rather than a political statement or big part of someone's perceived identity it just doesn't come up. A few of the regulars in my local shoot, a few in my last one shot, it might occassionally come up as the answer to, "so, what have you been doing this morning?", but other than that... I'm not a shooter myself, but I think it's credit due.
The last estimates I read were about 3.5 million legally owned firearms in the UK.

And as I have often mentioned I see people with guns quite regularly, my local park has - amongst its various "Do nots" - a "no shooting allowed".

Folk in the UK aren't phobic about guns it's just apart from the hobbyists we simply don't regard guns as being important in our day to day lives.

ETA: And that leads into a major issue the USA has - guns are normalised, in real life and throughout media. I've just tried to find an article that touched on this and can't so this is from memory - it was about a USA director making a film up the road from me, and he commented that in the states actors can just be given a gun and they know how to act as if they know how to use one, similar scenes with UK actors and they have to be shown how to hold and act as if they know how to use it.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you

Last edited by Darat; 17th February 2018 at 03:22 AM.
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 03:33 AM   #42
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 22,838
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
...
Now, if you think its so easy to get guns in the UK go there and try to buy one... and good luck because you will need it.
And don't think you can ask around in some dodgy pub either. To get one through underworld connections you'd need to be a part of that underworld.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 03:43 AM   #43
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 17,751
Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
All you have do is ask around ... it's not rocket science.

Almost everyone already knows someone connected.
I see from below that various people have dealt with your claims.

Riffing a bit on Captain_Swoop's post.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You keep posting this but offer no support.

It's very hard to get a gun in the UK.
Those who want one or supply one resort to re-activating display weapons. If it was easy they wouldn't need to do it.
there are relatively few weapons in circulation that get sold, rented and passed around.



All firearms are not equal. If firearms were so easy to get hold of in the UK, then when the police do seize criminal firearms, one would expect to see new firearms that might be traced to a single crime and then thrown away (which tends to be the case in the US). Instead the police find that the gun has been used for a long time, for lots of different crimes and different users. Almost as if it is highly valuable contraband.

As well as this, a lot of the guns that are seized are repurposed blank-firing pistols (starting pistols etc) that have been modified to fire live rounds. Obviously these are still lethal, but would not be first choice if one had access to more reliable, mass-produced pistols.

On top of this, without ammunition, guns are only useful for intimidation. Again, ammunition is very tightly controlled in the UK and has been for decades, and not only ammunition but the empty cases* as well.

A lot of UK police seizures of criminal firearms show that the criminals are relying on hand-refilled rounds - again this would not be anyone's first choice if they had ready access to reliable mass-produced ammunition.



*Disclosure - although I went to a state school, we did have an armoury and shooting range for .22 rifles (and deactivated .303 rifles) and the live rounds and empty cases had to be accounted for, so did not leave the range.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 03:48 AM   #44
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,828
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
And don't think you can ask around in some dodgy pub either. To get one through underworld connections you'd need to be a part of that underworld.
This is the other part that doesn't get mentioned, sell an illegal gun that gets used in a crime and the police will throw a lot of resources at finding the source. Sell an illegal gun that's used to murder children? No amount of money is worth being the target of that investigation.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 04:08 AM   #45
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,828
This has turned into a massive derail, for which I think my post #398 was responsible. My point back then was actually that taking official action against someone based on something they've said or written online is a lot less straight forward than it seems in retrospect. If we're going to discuss the avaliability of guns in the UK it should probably be split.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 04:14 AM   #46
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 81,656
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
This has turned into a massive derail, for which I think my post #398 was responsible. My point back then was actually that taking official action against someone based on something they've said or written online is a lot less straight forward than it seems in retrospect. If we're going to discuss the avaliability of guns in the UK it should probably be split.
I really don't think it is. If you have a gun owner posting "I'm going to go and shoot/kill that ***********", whether it was hyperbole or not I would say that should be grounds for removing their privilege/right of having a gun.

If you want to have a gun you need to be responsible and I'd say posting something like that in the comments on a Youtube video is showing that you are not a responsible person in regards to owning a gun.

For some reason we seem to be almost afraid of saying that on-line there are responsibilities and consequences to what you say.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 04:50 AM   #47
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,828
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I really don't think it is. If you have a gun owner posting "I'm going to go and shoot/kill that ***********", whether it was hyperbole or not I would say that should be grounds for removing their privilege/right of having a gun.

If you want to have a gun you need to be responsible and I'd say posting something like that in the comments on a Youtube video is showing that you are not a responsible person in regards to owning a gun.

For some reason we seem to be almost afraid of saying that on-line there are responsibilities and consequences to what you say.
Kind of dealing with this situation at the moment although being in the UK the person said that they would stab the other person. The problem is what action should the authorities take? Lock up everyone who ever suggests anything that might be interpreted as a threat? If those kids don't shut up and go to sleep I'm going to kill them! Clang! Obviously someone has to decide between credible and non-credible threats and it should be someone suitably qualified but then you run into issues of resources. The volume of stupid comments posted on social media makes even a cursory inspection of every possibly threatening outburst a practical nightmare.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 07:21 AM   #48
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,224
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The last estimates I read were about 3.5 million legally owned firearms in the UK.

And as I have often mentioned I see people with guns quite regularly, my local park has - amongst its various "Do nots" - a "no shooting allowed".

Folk in the UK aren't phobic about guns it's just apart from the hobbyists we simply don't regard guns as being important in our day to day lives.

ETA: And that leads into a major issue the USA has - guns are normalised, in real life and throughout media. I've just tried to find an article that touched on this and can't so this is from memory - it was about a USA director making a film up the road from me, and he commented that in the states actors can just be given a gun and they know how to act as if they know how to use one, similar scenes with UK actors and they have to be shown how to hold and act as if they know how to use it.


If that figure of 3.5 million is supposed to be guns owned by ordinary members of the UK public, then it would mean that practically every able-bodied adult (over 18 or 21) had a gun! And that is so far from being true that it's completely absurd.

If any figure like that is even remotely near correct, then apart from farmers with shotguns, I suspect it must also be including all the guns held in licensed gun clubs, probably includes the guns used by the police themselves, maybe also guns held by the British armed forces for training on UK shooting ranges etc. But it certainly cannot be a figure for how many ordinary members of the UK public have guns in their homes ... because virtually nobody in the UK has ever kept a gun in a normal family house/flat.



And just as an explanatory footnote for those outside the UK, e.g. US posters here although the UK has a total population of about 65 million, we have to keep in mind that about 10 million are under the age of 18 (and hence could not legally own even an airgun), and there must be a very large number of people over retirement age that are really not physically fit enough to be interested in shooting at targets or at pigeons on private farmland, and some of them will be in care homes etc., … still more will be criminals in prisons (where they are not issued with guns!), and many more will have various criminal offences on past records that bar them from owning guns, etc. etc. … so that the number of people in the UK who could ever get a gun license, or would ever want a license or have any interest in gun ownership at all, is probably minimal compared to the overall population of everyone alive in the UK.
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 07:44 AM   #49
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 22,838
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
If that figure of 3.5 million is supposed to be guns owned by ordinary members of the UK public, then it would mean that practically every able-bodied adult (over 18 or 21) had a gun! And that is so far from being true that it's completely absurd.
???

There are ~26 million in the 20-49 age band alone.

Demography of the United KingdomWP
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 07:55 AM   #50
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,877
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Rubbish.
Anecdotal to be sure but for what is worth.

Guns are easier to get than you think. It's not some shady guy in crips colors either. I'm in Canada, I know an average number of farmers and I've been offered old firearms no questions asked about a half dozen times. I won't go over all of them but the latest sums it up.

I was in college and talking about my interest in weapons and how I felt like a hypocrite not owning a firearm as the only thing stopping me was being lazy and not wanting to go through the hassle of safety courses etc.

Another classmate who had a large farm walked up and offered me an old over under shotgun, and a .22 pistol (I may be messing up the calibre I posted about it at the time) low price no questions asked.

I refused and he seemed shocked, I mentioned how bad of an idea selling a gun to some random is and he replied that he knew me well enough and im a little polite guy so he knew bitting bad would happen. And besides is only a double barrel and a .22.

If one wants a gun one can get one.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 07:57 AM   #51
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Whilst I've never tried to buy a gun, I can tell you this with all certainty: If you pack your pockets full of money, walk into a Salford pub and put it about that you're 'after a gun', you will wake up in the back alley with no money, no teeth and no desire to try anything that stupid again.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 08:02 AM   #52
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post


*Disclosure - although I went to a state school, we did have an armoury and shooting range for .22 rifles (and deactivated .303 rifles) and the live rounds and empty cases had to be accounted for, so did not leave the range.
You did target shooting with deactivated rifles? Did you hit much?
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 08:10 AM   #53
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 40,255
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Anecdotal to be sure but for what is worth.

Guns are easier to get than you think. It's not some shady guy in crips colors either. I'm in Canada, I know an average number of farmers and I've been offered old firearms no questions asked about a half dozen times. I won't go over all of them but the latest sums it up.

I was in college and talking about my interest in weapons and how I felt like a hypocrite not owning a firearm as the only thing stopping me was being lazy and not wanting to go through the hassle of safety courses etc.

Another classmate who had a large farm walked up and offered me an old over under shotgun, and a .22 pistol (I may be messing up the calibre I posted about it at the time) low price no questions asked.

I refused and he seemed shocked, I mentioned how bad of an idea selling a gun to some random is and he replied that he knew me well enough and im a little polite guy so he knew bitting bad would happen. And besides is only a double barrel and a .22.

If one wants a gun one can get one.
Yes, but you’re in Canada, we’re talking about the UK. Even .22 pistols are illegal.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 08:27 AM   #54
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 40,255
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
... unless you have some very strange friends indeed, it is completely unknown in the UK ever to walk into anyones home and find that they keep guns. You'd never see guns in any normal home in the UK.
Well, if they were following the law, you wouldn't generally know unless they told you, since both the guns and ammunition should be locked away. My sister and her then husband used to shoot practical pistol, so I have probably met more people who shoot in the UK than most people, and actually handled a couple of pistols (before the law changed). Your main point stands, though, it is very unusual for most people in the UK to see even see a gun, except these days it is more common to see the police armed.
Quote:
In the quite distant past the UK has seen a few cases of mass shooting similar to what happens in the US. The famous cases are Hungerford and Dumblane (i.e. Scotland), but those are both quite a long while ago now (Dunblane was 1996, and Hungerford 1987). However, UK gun laws were afaik tightened quite considerably after each of those cases, so that now it's almost impossible for any normal member of the public to get a gun ... and certainly it would be highly illegal and punishable by a severe sentence. People just do not have guns in the UK (not in remotely the same sort of way that they do in the USA).
After Dunblane, the laws regarding pistols changed to the extent that, except for some minor exceptions, it is effectively illegal to own one. However, it's not that difficult to own a gun if you want to shoot rifles or carbines, or, though I know less about them, shotguns, and follow the correct procedure. Far from impossible, I would say, but not comparable to just driving to Walmart or a gun show and buying one over the counter.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 08:40 AM   #55
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Moderator
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 12,480
I would not have the foggiest idea how to go about obtaining a handgun (although I really can't see any scenario in which I would want one). I wouldn't know who to talk to or where to find people who could sell me one, and they'd probably be undercover cops if I did find someone!

My ex-husband holds a shotgun licence (he has a lot of land and does clay pigeon shooting) but he has to keep his guns locked away and the ammo locked up separately.
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 08:47 AM   #56
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,224
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
???

There are ~26 million in the 20-49 age band alone.

Demography of the United KingdomWP

Yep, OK, my mistake ... 3.5 million guns, if they were supposed to be in private hands, would only mean about one person in 8 was likely to have a gun. But that's still not remotely a credible number … in my experience of living here for over 50 years, even in the most densely populated city of London, I would be surprised if only one person in a 100,000 (or even one in a million) had a licensed gun in their house, i.e. where they were thus in a position to take it out on to the street and shoot anyone (as clearly can happen all too easily in the USA).
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 08:50 AM   #57
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 81,656
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Yep, OK, my mistake ... 3.5 million guns, if they were supposed to be in private hands, would only mean about one person in 8 was likely to have a gun. But that's still not remotely a credible number … in my experience of living here for over 50 years, even in the most densely populated city of London, I would be surprised if only one person in a 100,000 (or even one in a million) had a licensed gun in their house, i.e. where they were thus in a position to take it out on to the street and shoot anyone (as clearly can happen all too easily in the USA).
2015: England and Wales only: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ing-march-2015

Quote:
...snip...

  • there were 153,603 firearm certificates on issue as at 31 March 2015, an increase of 1.4% (2,190) compared with the previous year’s figure, and the highest number since 1988
  • there were 525,125 firearms covered by such certificates, an increase of 3.4% (17,258) compared with the previous year’s figure, and the highest number since these figures first became available in 1995

...snip...
  • there were 582,494 shotgun certificates on issue as at 31 March 2015, a decrease of 0.1% (-429) compared with the previous year’s figure
  • there were 1,338,399 shotguns covered by such certificates, an increase of 0.7% (9,023) compared with the previous year’s figure and the highest number since the year ending 31 March 2010

...snip..

ETA:


Quote:
...snip...

The number of firearms per 100,000 people (calculated using Office for National Statistics’ mid-2014 population estimates for England and Wales) as at 31 March 2015 was highest in North Yorkshire, Cumbria and Dyfed-Powys (2,506, 2,290 and 2,265 respectively). This pattern corresponds with police forces with the highest number of firearms/shotguns per 100,000 people tending to be in more rural areas, where the population is often lower and firearms/shotguns are more frequently used for employment (e.g. gamekeeping and farming) and leisure activities (e.g. target shooting and game shooting). Police forces with the lowest number of firearms per 100,000 people were City of London, Metropolitan Police Service and West Midlands (173, 201 and 296 respectively).

...snip..
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you

Last edited by Darat; 17th February 2018 at 08:52 AM.
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 08:50 AM   #58
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 22,838
Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
I would not have the foggiest idea how to go about obtaining a handgun (although I really can't see any scenario in which I would want one). I wouldn't know who to talk to or where to find people who could sell me one, and they'd probably be undercover cops if I did find someone!

My ex-husband holds a shotgun licence (he has a lot of land and does clay pigeon shooting) but he has to keep his guns locked away and the ammo locked up separately.
This, at a guess, might explain the apparently high number mentioned upthread. People who legitimately own guns are likely to own more than one.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 09:07 AM   #59
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,664
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Rubbish.
And you are wrong, as I can tell from personal experience. Were I so motivated, I could obtain anything from a simple handgun to a Barrett 50.

I have never done so. But I know those who could have provided such.

You and I can happily sit here and pretend that it does not happen as a matter of course. Ooo, it's illegal therefore it couldn't happen. That would be naive. It happens. I don't like it just as much as you. Pretending it doesn't exist is naive. I don't like it any more than you. Pretending it does not happen? That is for the birds. The Rah buried all of their armory in concrete? Nobody believes that rubbish. It was simply a convenient fiction.

Make no mistake, I run a country mile from any of that nonsense, but there still exist cranks who are willing to commit terrorism on as grand a scale as they can muster on both sides.

Gun controls are fundamentally nonsense. Pandora's box has been opened and you cannot call it back. If there were a way to do so, I would happily do it.

Nevertheless, there remains some sort of wingnut fringe, who cannot. And they will source weapons no matter what anyone does, and bombs and anything else.

It does not matter, their ideology will compel them to continue with the nonsense no matter what.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 09:10 AM   #60
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,224
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Anecdotal to be sure but for what is worth.

Guns are easier to get than you think. It's not some shady guy in crips colors either. I'm in Canada, I know an average number of farmers and I've been offered old firearms no questions asked about a half dozen times. I won't go over all of them but the latest sums it up.

I was in college and talking about my interest in weapons and how I felt like a hypocrite not owning a firearm as the only thing stopping me was being lazy and not wanting to go through the hassle of safety courses etc.

Another classmate who had a large farm walked up and offered me an old over under shotgun, and a .22 pistol (I may be messing up the calibre I posted about it at the time) low price no questions asked.

I refused and he seemed shocked, I mentioned how bad of an idea selling a gun to some random is and he replied that he knew me well enough and im a little polite guy so he knew bitting bad would happen. And besides is only a double barrel and a .22.

If one wants a gun one can get one.

Yes, but you’re in Canada, we’re talking about the UK. Even .22 pistols are illegal.

Well as Zooterkin just pointed out – you are living in Canada, and we were talking about gun ownership in the UK. But also I notice you are talking about being surrounded by farmers in a farming community! And more than that, you just told us that you talked other people telling them how interested you are in weapons and wanting to get a gun!

That's not remotely like living in any of the big cities in the UK.

But the only reason I was posting here about the situation in the UK is because (a) I have noticed in previous threads (and to some extent here also), US or Canadian posters mistakenly saying, implying, or thinking that gun ownership and gun crime is not very different in the UK compared to what it is in the US, and also because (b) I think it's pretty obvious that the US could dramatically reduce the incidents of gun deaths and gunshot injuries if it adopted the sort of laws and restrictions that we have in the UK and afaik elsewhere in the EU …

… of course I'm also well aware that many in the US would say that any attempt to ban private ownership of guns (i.e. guns kept in peoples homes etc.) would probably be met with uncontrollable levels of opposition and violent protest in the US. But I think the US just has to find a way to stand up to threats like that from gun enthusiasts and particularly perhaps threats of violence from groups like the NSA.
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 09:27 AM   #61
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,224
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
2015: England and Wales only: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ing-march-2015


Quote:
...snip...




The number of firearms per 100,000 people (calculated using Office for National Statistics’ mid-2014 population estimates for England and Wales) as at 31 March 2015 was highest in North Yorkshire, Cumbria and Dyfed-Powys (2,506, 2,290 and 2,265 respectively).

This pattern corresponds with police forces with the highest number of firearms/shotguns per 100,000 people tending to be in more rural areas, where the population is often lower and firearms/shotguns are more frequently used for employment (e.g. gamekeeping and farming) and leisure activities (e.g. target shooting and game shooting). Police forces with the lowest number of firearms per 100,000 people were City of London, Metropolitan Police Service and West Midlands (173, 201 and 296 respectively).

...snip..

Just out of interest, although you (Darat) may be generally disagreeing with what I've said (which is fine ) – that last quoted paragraph (my highlighting above) does actually make clear that the official “ownership” figures are in fact said to include the weapons licensed to the police! … and where it says that police ownership is actually the highest ownership in those more rural areas, and where it makes clear that the only other ownership that is described is that of shotguns and rifles in the hands of farmers and gamekeepers.
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 09:35 AM   #62
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,828
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Just out of interest, although you (Darat) may be generally disagreeing with what I've said (which is fine ) – that last quoted paragraph (my highlighting above) does actually make clear that the official “ownership” figures are in fact said to include the weapons licensed to the police! … and where it says that police ownership is actually the highest ownership in those more rural areas, and where it makes clear that the only other ownership that is described is that of shotguns and rifles in the hands of farmers and gamekeepers.
I don't think that says what you think it does, Police Forces are responsible for issuing licences to civilians and it is the number of civilian licencees in the licencing area that I believe are being referred to.

ETA, and it refers explicitly to target and game shooting.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

Last edited by P.J. Denyer; 17th February 2018 at 09:36 AM.
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 09:37 AM   #63
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,224
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
This, at a guess, might explain the apparently high number mentioned upthread. People who legitimately own guns are likely to own more than one.

It sounds to me like the UK people who "own more than one", are almost entirely secure gun clubs where the guns are not allowed to be taken off the premises, and actually the police themselves! (not to mention the UK army on shooting ranges also "owning more than one gun"!).

At any rate it is certainly untrue that in private UK homes, people ever keep loaded guns (inc. automatic weapons!) simply out of either a hobbyist interest in owning guns, or out of any feeling that they need guns for personal protection against burglars or muggers on the streets or whatever ... that is the enormous difference between the UK (and afaik everywhere in the EU) vs. the USA.
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 09:39 AM   #64
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,224
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I don't think that says what you think it does, Police Forces are responsible for issuing licences to civilians and it is the number of civilian licencees in the licencing area that I believe are being referred to.

ETA, and it refers explicitly to target and game shooting.

Could be. (very badly written in that case ).

Last edited by IanS; 17th February 2018 at 09:41 AM.
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 10:04 AM   #65
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
The statement "All it takes to get a firearm in the U.K. is money" is of course nonsense (I am excepting Northern Ireland here because who knows what they get up to over there).

There are illegal guns on the UK mainland but the pertinent question is, what are they used for? The answer is, not much. Gang members occasionally shoot other gang members but the threat to civilians by illegal guns is virtually nil. I believe there are only around 25 gun homicides in England and Wales every year, and most of them are gang related (and some of these are enacted via legally held guns.) I believe the US has around 320x this figure.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 10:11 AM   #66
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,828
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
At any rate it is certainly untrue that in private UK homes, people ever keep loaded guns (inc. automatic weapons!) simply out of either a hobbyist interest in owning guns, or out of any feeling that they need guns for personal protection against burglars or muggers on the streets or whatever ... that is the enormous difference between the UK (and afaik everywhere in the EU) vs. the USA.
Correct, but plenty of people keep rifles or more commonly shotguns, at home unloaded in secure storage that is inspected by the Police on demand. People who shoot targets or skeet are going to be members of clubs and probably use their storage, people who game shoot, or farmers and gamekeeper who have them for work will tend to keep them at home.

Oh, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the minimum age for a shotgun license is 14.

I know you don't believe that legally owned guns are so prevalent, but that is exactly the point I was making about how the British shooting community don't make a big deal out of it, they're out there but they're out on private property and their guns are packed away and out of sight before they're back in public areas. They don't sling a Purdy over their shoulder and wander into Tesco, actually most of them wouldn't been seen dead in Tesco, make that Waitrose!

Incidentally, about a year or so ago I spent a long weekend at a hotel in Berkshire (ie, SE England, not miles from anywhere) which had gun cabinets for guests shotguns because the area is popular for pheasant shooting.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

Last edited by P.J. Denyer; 17th February 2018 at 10:12 AM.
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 10:18 AM   #67
Cainkane1
Philosopher
 
Cainkane1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 8,473
Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Mod Info The first 50 or so posts were split from the School Shooting Florida thread.
Posted By:Agatha




All it takes to get a firearm in the U.K. is money ... often street level ilegal guns are cheaper as well
All sorts of weapons available on the dark web.
__________________
If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.
Cainkane1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 10:19 AM   #68
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,828
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Could be. (very badly written in that case ).
It's an extract from a larger document, the context is going to have been presented long before this. However it is explicitly referring to firearms "used for employment (e.g. gamekeeping and farming) and leisure activities (e.g. target shooting and game shooting)"
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 10:21 AM   #69
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,828
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Whilst I've never tried to buy a gun, I can tell you this with all certainty: If you pack your pockets full of money, walk into a Salford pub and put it about that you're 'after a gun', you will wake up in the back alley with no money, no teeth and no desire to try anything that stupid again.
The essence of humour is truth. Thank you for making me laugh!
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 10:59 AM   #70
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,307
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
.......Gun controls are fundamentally nonsense........
Except they work.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 11:05 AM   #71
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 22,838
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And you are wrong, as I can tell from personal experience. Were I so motivated, I could obtain anything from a simple handgun to a Barrett 50.

I have never done so. But I know those who could have provided such.

You and I can happily sit here and pretend that it does not happen as a matter of course. Ooo, it's illegal therefore it couldn't happen. That would be naive. It happens. I don't like it just as much as you. Pretending it doesn't exist is naive. I don't like it any more than you. Pretending it does not happen? That is for the birds. The Rah buried all of their armory in concrete? Nobody believes that rubbish. It was simply a convenient fiction.

Make no mistake, I run a country mile from any of that nonsense, but there still exist cranks who are willing to commit terrorism on as grand a scale as they can muster on both sides.

Gun controls are fundamentally nonsense. Pandora's box has been opened and you cannot call it back. If there were a way to do so, I would happily do it.
Are you talking about the UK here? Gun control works pretty well, as the figures suggest, and I'd say will continue to do so.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 11:10 AM   #72
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 40,255
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
It sounds to me like the UK people who "own more than one", are almost entirely secure gun clubs where the guns are not allowed to be taken off the premises,
I don't think that's the case, though I may be out of touch on the latest changes; guns can be kept at any approved place in a locked cabinet, separate from the ammunition (the amount of which is also controlled), but must be inspected by the police before approval is given as part of the Fire Arms Certificate process. Most people who shoot as a hobby tend to have more than one gun, and often belong to more than one club. They don't only shoot at one place, so they will, at times, be in transit with their guns.
Quote:
At any rate it is certainly untrue that in private UK homes, people ever keep loaded guns (inc. automatic weapons!) simply out of either a hobbyist interest in owning guns, or out of any feeling that they need guns for personal protection against burglars or muggers on the streets or whatever ... that is the enormous difference between the UK (and afaik everywhere in the EU) vs. the USA.
If they are keeping loaded guns in the house in the UK then they are, generally speaking, breaking the law.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 11:16 AM   #73
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 22,838
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
*Disclosure - although I went to a state school, we did have an armoury and shooting range for .22 rifles (and deactivated .303 rifles) and the live rounds and empty cases had to be accounted for, so did not leave the range.
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
You did target shooting with deactivated rifles? Did you hit much?


In fact my school was exactly the same. A .22 range out the back, but ancient deactivated WWI 303s to practice handling the guns. Twice a year we took 'live' 303s out to an army range in Kent, where I proceeded to get hearing damage and lifetime tinnitus, as nobody gave any thought to ear protection back then
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 11:25 AM   #74
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 40,255
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And you are wrong, as I can tell from personal experience. Were I so motivated, I could obtain anything from a simple handgun to a Barrett 50.

I have never done so. But I know those who could have provided such.
No-one's saying it's impossible, since it clearly happens. What's not the case is that the average person in the street could simply acquire one if they had enough money. You may well have contacts through which you could get a gun; I would say you were not typical. I can think of one or two people I know who, if I were desperate to get my hands on an illegal gun, would be the first I might approach, but that would be based on the sort of people they in turn might know, there's no-one I know for certain would be able to help.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 11:35 AM   #75
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 17,751
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
You did target shooting with deactivated rifles? Did you hit much?
OK - for a Bobian level of clarity: we had an armoury for .22 rifles and deactivated SMLE .303 rifles, along with a shooting range for the .22 rifles.
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post


In fact my school was exactly the same. A .22 range out the back, but ancient deactivated WWI 303s to practice handling the guns. Twice a year we took 'live' 303s out to an army range in Kent, where I proceeded to get hearing damage and lifetime tinnitus, as nobody gave any thought to ear protection back then
It was fairly common in the grammar schools in Kent - at mine, about half the kids used the range when we could. We did get ear protection though.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 11:40 AM   #76
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 17,751
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And you are wrong, as I can tell from personal experience. Were I so motivated, I could obtain anything from a simple handgun to a Barrett 50.

I have never done so. But I know those who could have provided such.

You and I can happily sit here and pretend that it does not happen as a matter of course. Ooo, it's illegal therefore it couldn't happen. That would be naive. It happens. I don't like it just as much as you. Pretending it doesn't exist is naive. I don't like it any more than you. Pretending it does not happen? That is for the birds. The Rah buried all of their armory in concrete? Nobody believes that rubbish. It was simply a convenient fiction.

Make no mistake, I run a country mile from any of that nonsense, but there still exist cranks who are willing to commit terrorism on as grand a scale as they can muster on both sides.

Gun controls are fundamentally nonsense. Pandora's box has been opened and you cannot call it back. If there were a way to do so, I would happily do it.

Nevertheless, there remains some sort of wingnut fringe, who cannot. And they will source weapons no matter what anyone does, and bombs and anything else.

It does not matter, their ideology will compel them to continue with the nonsense no matter what.
Are you in Dublin? Is this a difference from the UK - the mainland part at least?
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 11:42 AM   #77
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20,182
It appears that Brits have guns but they don't use them to murder. So it's possible to have guns but not go on to kill. How could we go about having an America where people have the guns but don't murder?

(Is this question supposed to be in a different thread?)
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 11:44 AM   #78
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 81,656
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And you are wrong, as I can tell from personal experience. Were I so motivated, I could obtain anything from a simple handgun to a Barrett 50.

I have never done so. But I know those who could have provided such.

You and I can happily sit here and pretend that it does not happen as a matter of course. Ooo, it's illegal therefore it couldn't happen. That would be naive. It happens. I don't like it just as much as you. Pretending it doesn't exist is naive. I don't like it any more than you. Pretending it does not happen? That is for the birds. The Rah buried all of their armory in concrete? Nobody believes that rubbish. It was simply a convenient fiction.

Make no mistake, I run a country mile from any of that nonsense, but there still exist cranks who are willing to commit terrorism on as grand a scale as they can muster on both sides.

Gun controls are fundamentally nonsense. Pandora's box has been opened and you cannot call it back. If there were a way to do so, I would happily do it.

Nevertheless, there remains some sort of wingnut fringe, who cannot. And they will source weapons no matter what anyone does, and bombs and anything else.

It does not matter, their ideology will compel them to continue with the nonsense no matter what.
No I am not wrong and you are arguing about a misrepresentation of what I replied "rubbish" to. No one has claimed that it is not possible to get hold of illegal firearms in the UK. Most of us do not know someone we could get an illegal gun from.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 11:46 AM   #79
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,812
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I don't think that's the case, though I may be out of touch on the latest changes; guns can be kept at any approved place in a locked cabinet, separate from the ammunition (the amount of which is also controlled), but must be inspected by the police before approval is given as part of the Fire Arms Certificate process. Most people who shoot as a hobby tend to have more than one gun, and often belong to more than one club. They don't only shoot at one place, so they will, at times, be in transit with their guns.
The vast majority of guns are kept by their owners in their own homes. Instances where that is not the case are where guns are kept in armouries, for example;

- some clubs and sporting estates have guns available so people without licences can still shoot.

- museums, which can be guns on display to the public or guns held in storage

- many airports, whereby there are multiple people who have a licence and share a gun, the need being if a large animal gets onto the runway area.

- schools with cadet corps.

Quote:
If they are keeping loaded guns in the house in the UK then they are, generally speaking, breaking the law.
There is nothing in the Firearms Act 1968 or any amendment that makes that specifically illegal because they are not in a public place. Section 19 covers public places.

It is a condition of licences that guns are stored separate from the ammo, when not in use.

I used to do firearms licensing and the reason it is not illegal to have a loaded gun to hand in the house, is because of circumstances where quick access is required to shoot vermin. Such houses are usually on farms or estate houses. I renewed a licence of someone who had a loaded rifle in the room, next to an open window, as he had just seen a fox walk by. He hoped to see it again and could shoot it. His house was a castle.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 11:50 AM   #80
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,812
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It appears that Brits have guns but they don't use them to murder. So it's possible to have guns but not go on to kill. How could we go about having an America where people have the guns but don't murder?

(Is this question supposed to be in a different thread?)
Do what the UK (and the rest of the western world does) and make it very difficult for unsuitable people to get a gun.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:32 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.