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Old 18th February 2018, 03:36 AM   #121
Nessie
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
You have to love all of the people who tried to prove the OP wrong by linking to cites about legal guns.

Like that means dick all.

That would be like proving how many chocolate bars there are by linking to a cite that shows how much bubble gun is sold.

Someone in the UK who has enough wherewithal to acquire something like heroin could just as easily find a gun.

Anyone who thinks the OP is wrong in saying that all it takes to get a gun in the UK is a money hat is full of beans. And they know it. These are the same people who are so damn jealous that the neighbor has a 4K TV (that they will never be able to afford) they keep it a secret and trash talk 4K all day.

They know damn well that they will never have true freedom under their current government so they might as well just trash talk it and act like they do not want it.
Still waiting for evidence as to the ease at which an illegal gun can be bought. Then how many can someone get, what type, how much ammo?

Could someone in the Uk get enough to massacre 20, 30, 40 plus people in one shooting incident?
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Old 18th February 2018, 03:37 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The process of getting a gun in the UK is easier than that required to get a CCW permit in Texas.
Apples and oranges. How easy is it to buy a gun in Texas?
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Yes, we are limited compared to the USA as to what guns we can lawfully hold,
Which is what I said.
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As for being scared of guns, there is a huge tradition of shooting in the UK and whilst the majority of city dwellers are not used to seeing a gun and we only ever see open carry with the police on rare occasions, they are not the means to measure our overall attitude to guns.
Again, that does not disagree with what I said.
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Old 18th February 2018, 03:53 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
If that figure of 3.5 million is supposed to be guns owned by ordinary members of the UK public, then it would mean that practically every able-bodied adult (over 18 or 21) had a gun! And that is so far from being true that it's completely absurd.
In 2016/17 in England & Wales there were 561,413 Shotgun Certificates on issue, covering 1,349,099 shotguns. There were also 154,958 Firearms Certificates covering 559,302 firearms. That's a total of 716,371 Certificates, but it's won't be that many people, as some have both types. The total number of all firearms is 1,908,401. A pro rata increase for Scotland and NI only gets to around 2.15 million, but 3.5 million would be about right if you include air weapons, as there are reckoned to be 1-2 million of them.

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Old 18th February 2018, 03:58 AM   #124
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@zooterkin - I think you and Nessie are actually in violent agreement.

One can get access to firearms if one has a legitimate reason - including shooting as a hobby. It isn't as easy as in many countries, especially if one wants to store the firearms at home.

Illegal firearms are hard to get hold of, even if one is a criminal.

Of course, there are other countries with more of a shooting culture, but still with low gun crime. New Zealand is an obvious example. Although the gun crime rate is higher than in the UK, it's hardly an epidemic.
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Old 18th February 2018, 04:00 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
You have to love all of the people who tried to prove the OP wrong by linking to cites about legal guns.

Like that means dick all.

{Snipped}
The 'OP' was one of a number of posts split from a discussion of the Florida shootings and covered TWO subjects, the avaliability of illegal guns and a discussion originally mostly with IanS about legal ownership.

Eta: and the source of the derail was a post from me before the split posts which didn't specify illegal guns.
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Old 18th February 2018, 04:43 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Yep, OK, my mistake ... 3.5 million guns, if they were supposed to be in private hands, would only mean about one person in 8 was likely to have a gun. But that's still not remotely a credible number in my experience of living here for over 50 years, even in the most densely populated city of London, I would be surprised if only one person in a 100,000 (or even one in a million) had a licensed gun in their house, i.e. where they were thus in a position to take it out on to the street and shoot anyone (as clearly can happen all too easily in the USA).
Then be surprised. In the Met Police area there are 4,392 Firearms Certificate (FAC) holders, and 25,743 Shotgun Certificate (SGC) holders. That works out at around 54 per 100,000 of population for FACs, and 315 per 100,000 SGCs. On average FAC holders have four firearms, and SGC holders two shotguns.

Funnily enough, in the City of London (population 9,401) only two people have FACs, but have 17 firearms between them. A further 32 have SGCs, with 47 shotguns between them.
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Old 18th February 2018, 04:51 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
It sounds to me like the UK people who "own more than one", are almost entirely secure gun clubs where the guns are not allowed to be taken off the premises, and actually the police themselves! (not to mention the UK army on shooting ranges also "owning more than one gun"!).
The figures quotes have nothing to do with police holdings. You also are vastly over-estimating the number of gun clubs in the UK.

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At any rate it is certainly untrue that in private UK homes, people ever keep loaded guns (inc. automatic weapons!) simply out of either a hobbyist interest in owning guns, or out of any feeling that they need guns for personal protection against burglars or muggers on the streets or whatever ... that is the enormous difference between the UK (and afaik everywhere in the EU) vs. the USA.
Certificate holders don't keep "loaded guns" anywhere. Firearms and ammunition have to be securely stored separately within the premises. By definition they cannot have automatic weapons, because they're restricted, but semi-automatic rifles in .22 calibre are allowed. You can even have a .22 version of the AR-15, if you want. But, no, people don't take them out for personal protection, because that's a breach of Certificate conditions, but they can be used for self defence if it is appropriate, reasonable, and proportionate.
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Old 18th February 2018, 04:58 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Oh, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the minimum age for a shotgun license is 14.
No, there is no minimum age for the granting of a Shotgun Certificate, but someone has to be 15 to use a shotgun without adult supervision. There is a minimum age of 14 for the granting of a Firearms Certificate.

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Old 18th February 2018, 05:04 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
All sorts of weapons available on the dark web.
So? Most of them aren't from inside the UK, and the UK routinely puts mail from abroad through x-ray scanners and metal detectors.
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Old 18th February 2018, 05:05 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Apples and oranges. How easy is it to buy a gun in Texas?

Which is what I said.


Again, that does not disagree with what I said.
I am not arguing against everything you said. I am arguing against the generalisations I often see about gun ownership and attitudes in the UK, which you did contribute to. You are clearly more knowledgeable than many, but your comments show there are still points where you are, unintentionally, adding to the myths and ignorance of British gun possession and culture.

I have provided evidence that in some circumstances, it is harder to get a gun in the USA than it is in the UK. I think most people, British included, would be amazed at that.

I provided evidence that the British are not as limited as to the type of weapons which can be possessed as is often made out. I think most people, British included are amazed at the types of gun which are still legal in the UK, especially Northern Ireland.

I have provided evidence that applying for a firearms licence in the UK is easy and simple, equivalent to getting a passport (and they about the same cost).

I have evidenced there is no shortage of places to legally buy a gun. Again, I doubt many people in the UK know just how many places there are, nor just how many people here own a gun.

I would say that all of the above is then evidence the British are not as fearful of guns as some would like to suggest.
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Old 18th February 2018, 05:10 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
@zooterkin - I think you and Nessie are actually in violent agreement.
I agree!

Quote:
One can get access to firearms if one has a legitimate reason - including shooting as a hobby. It isn't as easy as in many countries, especially if one wants to store the firearms at home.
The vast majority of guns are stored in the owners homes. That they have safe and secure storage at home is a condition of having a gun. It is rare for a person to own a gun that is not stored in their home.

For someone else to store a gun, they have to be a firearms certificate holder and agree to have secure storage installed that is separate from their own and that they cannot access. Or the weapon is shared and on both persons certificates.

Quote:
Illegal firearms are hard to get hold of, even if one is a criminal.

Of course, there are other countries with more of a shooting culture, but still with low gun crime. New Zealand is an obvious example. Although the gun crime rate is higher than in the UK, it's hardly an epidemic.
There is only one country where it is epidemic.
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Old 18th February 2018, 05:14 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
No, there is no minimum age for the granting of a Shotgun Certificate, but someone has to be 15 to use a shotgun without adult supervision. There is a minimum age of 14 for the granting of a Firearms Certificate.
Thank you for the correction.
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Old 18th February 2018, 05:19 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
You have to love all of the people who tried to prove the OP wrong by linking to cites about legal guns.

Like that means dick all.

That would be like proving how many chocolate bars there are by linking to a cite that shows how much bubble gun is sold.
Freduian slip.

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Someone in the UK who has enough wherewithal to acquire something like heroin could just as easily find a gun.
Sorry, mate, but that's bollocks. I know people I could get various Class A drugs from, but if I suggested a shooter they'd laugh in my face. Firearms are simply not a part of the vast majority of the UK's criminal culture.

Quote:
Anyone who thinks the OP is wrong in saying that all it takes to get a gun in the UK is a money hat is full of beans. And they know it. These are the same people who are so damn jealous that the neighbor has a 4K TV (that they will never be able to afford) they keep it a secret and trash talk 4K all day.
Most Brits never think about guns, aspirationally or otherwise, so why would they be jealous, especially of the price Americans pay for their "freedom"?

Quote:
They know damn well that they will never have true freedom under their current government so they might as well just trash talk it and act like they do not want it.
How's that faith-based religious of "Guns = Freedom" working out for you?

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Old 18th February 2018, 05:29 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
The figures quotes have nothing to do with police holdings. You also are vastly over-estimating the number of gun clubs in the UK.
You can find out how many there are in your area here;

http://britishshooting.org.uk/gettin...ed/find-a-club

Search a town and the site will give you the ten nearest clubs to you. So there are ten clubs within 12 miles of Leeds, 11 miles of Manchester, 19 miles of Yeovil, 16 miles of Glasgow etc. There are hundreds of them all over the country and no one lives more than a few miles from one.

Quote:
Certificate holders don't keep "loaded guns" anywhere.
It is more accurate to say UK firearms holders do not leave loaded weapons lying about unattended like Americans do. At any one time, especially during various hunting seasons, there are thousands of Brits roaming the country with loaded guns.

Quote:
Firearms and ammunition have to be securely stored separately within the premises. By definition they cannot have automatic weapons, because they're restricted, but semi-automatic rifles in .22 calibre are allowed. You can even have a .22 version of the AR-15, if you want. But, no, people don't take them out for personal protection, because that's a breach of Certificate conditions, but they can be used for self defence if it is appropriate, reasonable, and proportionate.
There are instances where certain people do carry guns for personal protection. There are police officers, MI5/6 and military personnel who can at times carry guns.

Others get armed police to protect them. I cannot give you figures, but at anyone time there are hundreds of people in the UK under armed guard, from certain politicians who get it as a matter of routine (the PM, Defence Minister, Minister for NI) to people on witness protection schemes or for whom there is a credible deadly threat to life.
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Old 18th February 2018, 05:44 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You can find out how many there are in your area here;

http://britishshooting.org.uk/gettin...ed/find-a-club

Search a town and the site will give you the ten nearest clubs to you. So there are ten clubs within 12 miles of Leeds, 11 miles of Manchester, 19 miles of Yeovil, 16 miles of Glasgow etc. There are hundreds of them all over the country and no one lives more than a few miles from one.
Obviously they exist, but they do not "explain" the number of licensed firearms in the country in the manner suggested.

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It is more accurate to say UK firearms holders do not leave loaded weapons lying about unattended like Americans do. At any one time, especially during various hunting seasons, there are thousands of Brits roaming the country with loaded guns.
My comment was in the context of conditions of storage, not use.

Quote:
There are instances where certain people do carry guns for personal protection. There are police officers, MI5/6 and military personnel who can at times carry guns.

Others get armed police to protect them. I cannot give you figures, but at anyone time there are hundreds of people in the UK under armed guard, from certain politicians who get it as a matter of routine (the PM, Defence Minister, Minister for NI) to people on witness protection schemes or for whom there is a credible deadly threat to life.
Which really has nothing to do with the vast bulk of regular FAC and SGC holders (NI partially excepted).
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Old 18th February 2018, 06:06 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
........These are the same people who are so damn jealous that the neighbor has a 4K TV (that they will never be able to afford) they keep it a secret and trash talk 4K all day.......
If you're really suggesting that we're jealous of the American gun culture, then you aren't doing any reading. Most of us think it is somewhere between ridiculous and insane, and when we see its consequences we thank our lucky stars that we don't live somewhere with such a dangerous obsession.

Jealous? Oh no. Proud. Proud that we sorted it out, and don't have to live in fear of our kids being massacred in school and on the streets.
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Old 18th February 2018, 06:09 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
........ At any one time, especially during various hunting seasons, there are thousands of Brits roaming the country with loaded guns. ........
On a strict point of order, this is wrong. You aren't allowed to "roam around" with a loaded gun. If you are moving, your gun has to be unloaded. With shot-guns, loaded but "broken" is acceptable. Additionally, loaded weapons aren't allowed in moving vehicles.

As I said previously, I know someone who lost his shotgun license when he was seen walking (in his own field) with an unbroken weapon.
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Old 18th February 2018, 06:17 AM   #138
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By loaded, I would include a broken shotgun which has cartridges in it. I am amazed someone lost a gun purely for carrying it unbroken. He did not break any law;

"Carrying firearm in a public place.
A person commits an offence if, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) he has with him in a public place
[F1(a)a loaded shot gun...."

as it was his own field (not public, he has lawful authority to be there with a gun) so he does not need a reasonable excuse to possess as it is not public.

The law also does not specify that the shotgun has to be broken, just it cannot be carried in a public place whilst loaded.
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Old 18th February 2018, 08:08 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am not arguing against everything you said.
No, I think we're agreeing on most things. However, you seem to be arguing against something no-one has actually said in this thread.
Quote:
I am arguing against the generalisations I often see about gun ownership and attitudes in the UK, which you did contribute to. You are clearly more knowledgeable than many, but your comments show there are still points where you are, unintentionally, adding to the myths and ignorance of British gun possession and culture.
I did? Where?

Quote:

I have provided evidence that in some circumstances, it is harder to get a gun in the USA than it is in the UK.
Again, where? You provided a link to getting a CCW licence in Texas. Concealed carry is not equivalent to a FAC. It's also not the same as showing how hard it is to get a gun.

Quote:

I have provided evidence that applying for a firearms licence in the UK is easy and simple, equivalent to getting a passport (and they about the same cost).
You don't have to join a gun club to get a passport. And, yes, I know you can get a FAC without joining a gun club, but for most non-rural dwellers, I think you'd be hard-pressed to justify gun ownership, first time around, without doing so. If you're educated, middle-class, with your own home, it probably is fairly easy, comparatively speaking, to get a FAC, but there's a lot of people for whom the various conditions would be a significant hurdle, if not a complete barrier to gun ownership.
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Old 18th February 2018, 08:09 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
A lot of UK police seizures of criminal firearms show that the criminals are relying on hand-refilled rounds - again this would not be anyone's first choice if they had ready access to reliable mass-produced ammunition.
It's my first choice even though most of the ammo I use is readily available in stores. A brief search online shows a thriving ammo reloading industry in the UK.
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Old 18th February 2018, 08:17 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
It's my first choice even though most of the ammo I use is readily available in stores. A brief search online shows a thriving ammo reloading industry in the UK.
Yes, it's pretty common, I believe for cost reasons. I brought some parts for a reloader back from a visit to the US for my then brother-in-law.
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Old 18th February 2018, 08:39 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
It's my first choice even though most of the ammo I use is readily available in stores. A brief search online shows a thriving ammo reloading industry in the UK.
Hand-loaded ammunition was only "popular" amongst criminals in the UK at one point because there weren't the same restrictions on the tools and components for hand-loading as there were on ready-made ammunition. I may be wrong, but I think that loophole has been closed.
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Old 18th February 2018, 08:46 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
No, I think we're agreeing on most things. However, you seem to be arguing against something no-one has actually said in this thread.
I did? Where?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post12187038

You made claims I disagree with, which we have gone on to discuss.

Quote:
Again, where? You provided a link to getting a CCW licence in Texas. Concealed carry is not equivalent to a FAC. It's also not the same as showing how hard it is to get a gun.
Both a CCW permit and a firearms licence are ways for people to lawfully possess a gun.

I linked and quoted to show it is harder to get a Texas CCW permit than a UK firearms licence.

Quote:
You don't have to join a gun club to get a passport. And, yes, I know you can get a FAC without joining a gun club, but for most non-rural dwellers, I think you'd be hard-pressed to justify gun ownership, first time around, without doing so. If you're educated, middle-class, with your own home, it probably is fairly easy, comparatively speaking, to get a FAC, but there's a lot of people for whom the various conditions would be a significant hurdle, if not a complete barrier to gun ownership.
The vast majority of certificates I processed were not gun club members. Instead they had access to suitable land with permission to shoot and the reason can be vermin control or targets on that land (shotguns do not need a reason to be given). Most local farmers were happy to save money by not having a gun themselves and would grant permission for someone else to do the shooting for them. There are plenty of people who like to shoot and will kill vermin for free in return for permission to shoot. That is how poorer people are able to still shoot at a low cost.
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Old 18th February 2018, 08:51 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Hand-loaded ammunition was only "popular" amongst criminals in the UK at one point because there weren't the same restrictions on the tools and components for hand-loading as there were on ready-made ammunition. I may be wrong, but I think that loophole has been closed.
No, making your own ammo is permitted and plenty of people do it. Some instructions here;

http://www.riflesintheuk.com/reloading.htm

By the bits here;

https://www.sportsmanguncentre.co.uk...ing-ammunition

The large Highland sporting estates commonly make their own ammo as it saves time, cost and issues over transporting large quantities of ammo.
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Old 18th February 2018, 08:59 AM   #145
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I'm still laughing over the '4K' TV claims, and the idea that anyone with a drugs habit can easily get their hands on a gun in the UK. Utter balls.
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Old 18th February 2018, 09:11 AM   #146
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This guy illegally supplied guns for use in films;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...herts-41368169

he got a suspended sentence and 750 fine. Someone who did supply guns to criminals got ten years;

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/l...o-sold-9793149

and this chap got 22 years

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-41306909

"A man who supplied guns and ammunition to organised crime gangs has been jailed for 22 years.
Umair Khan used the dark web to make his purchases, including more than 50 revolvers, and was caught by police in February after ordering a hand grenade."

This person got 30 years

http://www.helensburghadvertiser.co....on_UK_streets/

It is a high risk crime in the UK, the suppliers have to be very careful who they supply to.
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Old 18th February 2018, 09:29 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Both a CCW permit and a firearms licence are ways for people to lawfully possess a gun.
....
Not comparable. A concealed carry permit is a license specifically to carry a loaded handgun concealed on your person. You don't need a CCP/CW(easpon)P or any other license (in most states) to buy a handgun or long gun, or possess it loaded in your home or business or other private property, or hunt with it, or transport it (unloaded) in your car, or in many states to carry it loaded if displayed openly in plain view. And a CCP is easy to obtain. Most states issue them, and many states recognize other states' permits by reciprocity.
https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/

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Old 18th February 2018, 09:31 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
T
...
It is a high risk crime in the UK, the suppliers have to be very careful who they supply to.
Exactly, so there's close-to-zero chance of a stranger 'just asking around' and getting a gun. baron's scenario of finding yourself minus money and minus teeth in a back alley is far more likely.
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Old 18th February 2018, 09:54 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
If you're really suggesting that we're jealous of the American gun culture, then you aren't doing any reading. Most of us think it is somewhere between ridiculous and insane, and when we see its consequences we thank our lucky stars that we don't live somewhere with such a dangerous obsession.

Jealous? Oh no. Proud. Proud that we sorted it out, and don't have to live in fear of our kids being massacred in school and on the streets.
I'm note even very proud of it, just as I'm not proud of my ability to avoid soiling myself when I go to the toilet. I'd be sad and embarrassed if it wasn't the case.

It's not as though the UK is unique - other countries have more-or-less sorted out gun crime. Maybe not as effectively as the UK, but still so that any individual shooting incident would be national news.
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Old 18th February 2018, 10:00 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Not comparable. A concealed carry permit is a license specifically to carry a loaded handgun concealed on your person. You don't need a CCP/CW(easpon)P or any other license (in most states) to buy a handgun or long gun, or possess it loaded in your home or business or other private property, or hunt with it, or transport it (unloaded) in your car, or in many states to carry it loaded if displayed openly in plain view. And a CCP is easy to obtain. Most states issue them, and many states recognize other states' permits by reciprocity.
https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/
Indeed, thanks; exactly the point I was trying to make, but clearly failing.
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Old 18th February 2018, 10:12 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post12187038

You made claims I disagree with, which we have gone on to discuss.
You corrected me on a minor point (and I'd argue we were both still correct, depending on context). You then said:
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is tedious just how often the firearms situation in the UK is misrepresented to make it appear it is virtually impossible to get a gun, hardly any types of gun are legal and there are very few guns in the UK.
I don't see any of that in this thread.
Quote:

Both a CCW permit and a firearms licence are ways for people to lawfully possess a gun.

I linked and quoted to show it is harder to get a Texas CCW permit than a UK firearms licence.
They are totally different things. A CCW lets you do something that is not even possible for a private citizen in the UK, unless you can point to some clause that allows for someone to carry a concealed, loaded pistol in public.

Quote:
The vast majority of certificates I processed were not gun club members. Instead they had access to suitable land with permission to shoot and the reason can be vermin control or targets on that land (shotguns do not need a reason to be given). Most local farmers were happy to save money by not having a gun themselves and would grant permission for someone else to do the shooting for them. There are plenty of people who like to shoot and will kill vermin for free in return for permission to shoot. That is how poorer people are able to still shoot at a low cost.
Again, this would be a different context from me, and most people in the UK, who do not live in rural areas (less than 18% of the population).
Under what circumstances would a city- or town-dwelling first-time prospective gun owner obtain a Firearms Certificate without joining a gun club?
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Old 18th February 2018, 10:23 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Again, this would be a different context from me, and most people in the UK, who do not live in rural areas (less than 18% of the population).
Under what circumstances would a city- or town-dwelling first-time prospective gun owner obtain a Firearms Certificate without joining a gun club?
There's plenty of pheasant shooting around me and I'm barely half an hour outside the M25, only 18% may actually live in rural areas but plenty more have easy access to them. I'd be really surprised if our local shoots don't include people resident in London, Oxford, and Reading.
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Old 18th February 2018, 10:38 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post

I have provided evidence that in some circumstances, it is harder to get a gun in the USA than it is in the UK. I think most people, British included, would be amazed at that.
You compared getting a gun to getting a CCW. The two are not comparable. And I bet that even with all the restrictions, it's still a *lot* easier to get a CCW in Texas than in the UK.
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Old 18th February 2018, 11:03 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
There's plenty of pheasant shooting around me and I'm barely half an hour outside the M25, only 18% may actually live in rural areas but plenty more have easy access to them. I'd be really surprised if our local shoots don't include people resident in London, Oxford, and Reading.
Pheasant shooting with a rifle?
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Old 18th February 2018, 11:05 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Pheasant shooting with a rifle?
As they are fast-flying it is ridiculous to attempt to use anything other than an AR-15 (although *obviously* an M-16 would be better)
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Old 18th February 2018, 11:11 AM   #156
Nessie
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Not comparable. A concealed carry permit is a license specifically to carry a loaded handgun concealed on your person. You don't need a CCP/CW(easpon)P or any other license (in most states) to buy a handgun or long gun, or possess it loaded in your home or business or other private property, or hunt with it, or transport it (unloaded) in your car, or in many states to carry it loaded if displayed openly in plain view. And a CCP is easy to obtain. Most states issue them, and many states recognize other states' permits by reciprocity.
https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/
I know it is not an exact comparison, but the point stands, there are instances where it is harder to get a gun in the USA than it is in the UK.
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Old 18th February 2018, 11:17 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You compared getting a gun to getting a CCW. The two are not comparable. And I bet that even with all the restrictions, it's still a *lot* easier to get a CCW in Texas than in the UK.
Both are ways to get a gun licence/permit to possess a legal gun.

I linked to what is needed to get a CCW in Texas, the procedure, forms etc and what is needed in the UK. I proved it is harder to get a CCW permit.

To get a firearms certificate in the UK, you do not need any training and you do not need to provide fingerprints. There are also declarations to do with bankruptcy that do not apply for the UK.
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Old 18th February 2018, 11:18 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I know it is not an exact comparison, but the point stands, there are instances where it is harder to get a gun in the USA than it is in the UK.
The point doesn't stand at all. Getting a CCW has literally nothing to do with getting a gun. The comparison is invalid, misleading, and pointless.

Why don't you compare getting a gun in the UK to getting a gun in Texas, before you opine about which is harder?

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Old 18th February 2018, 11:21 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Both are ways to get a gun licence/permit to possess a legal gun.
They absolutely are not.
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Old 18th February 2018, 11:23 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You corrected me on a minor point (and I'd argue we were both still correct, depending on context). You then said:


I don't see any of that in this thread.

They are totally different things. A CCW lets you do something that is not even possible for a private citizen in the UK, unless you can point to some clause that allows for someone to carry a concealed, loaded pistol in public.
A firearms and shotgun certificate have different requirements. The shotgun is easier to get. A Texas CCW is harder to get. Different types of licence are easier/harder to get.

Quote:
Again, this would be a different context from me, and most people in the UK, who do not live in rural areas (less than 18% of the population).
Under what circumstances would a city- or town-dwelling first-time prospective gun owner obtain a Firearms Certificate without joining a gun club?
By getting permission to shoot over suitable land. The town dwellers I dealt with would nominate land and I would get in touch with the owner to check they had permission. That permission may be from a local farmer who has given permission to lamp for foxes. Or a Highland estate where the person would stalk deer or shoot grouse.
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