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Old 18th February 2018, 11:25 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The point doesn't stand at all. Getting a CCW has literally nothing to do with getting a gun. The comparison is invalid, misleading, and pointless.

Why don't you compare getting a gun in the UK to getting a gun in Texas, before you opine about which is harder?
A concealed carry weapon permit is permission to carry a gun, not a knife.

There are different types of licence in the UK, some are easier to get than others. Is it wrong to compare them?
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Old 18th February 2018, 11:27 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They absolutely are not.
They absolutely are. Both are legally required or else a Texan cannot take his gun out in public and a British person cannot own a gun.
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Old 18th February 2018, 11:37 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
There's plenty of pheasant shooting around me and I'm barely half an hour outside the M25, only 18% may actually live in rural areas but plenty more have easy access to them. I'd be really surprised if our local shoots don't include people resident in London, Oxford, and Reading.
I live a bit south of that, in the Surrey Hills. Plenty of banging away on farms over the weekends, and our local butcher sells a lot of game, pheasant, pigeon etc. The pigeons have warnings on the labels that they might still contain shot.

Plenty of people I know have shotguns, and one lady in my office has, I believe, (her and husband) quite a collection, including rifles and whatever they use for competitive target shooting.

But they don't wander around the village packing heat (I watch movies), so it doesn't bug me in the least.
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Old 18th February 2018, 11:41 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Pheasant shooting with a rifle?
I realised after I posted it that it might not match up exactly with what you were asking. However the principal is similar in that game shooters may also live in towns and cities and travel to where they hunt. My expectation (which may be wrong) would be that target shooters would generally be members of clubs, with possible exceptions for some very wealthy individuals.
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Old 18th February 2018, 11:43 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A concealed carry weapon permit is permission to carry a gun, not a knife.

There are different types of licence in the UK, some are easier to get than others. Is it wrong to compare them?
It's wrong to compare a license for possession with a license for specific types of use, as if they were the same kind of license.
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Old 18th February 2018, 11:45 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
They absolutely are. Both are legally required or else a Texan cannot take his gun out in public and a British person cannot own a gun.
Earlier you were claiming that CCW is a license for possession, which it is not.

Nor is a CCW required to take a gun out in public, in Texas.
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Old 18th February 2018, 11:48 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's wrong to compare a license for possession with a license for specific types of use, as if they were the same kind of license.
It's easier for me to legally possess a gun in Texas than in the UK. And it's easier for me to legally carry a concealed firearm in Texas, than in the UK.

Do you agree with these two comparisons of like to like?
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Old 18th February 2018, 12:00 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's wrong to compare a license for possession with a license for specific types of use, as if they were the same kind of license.
All I have done and intended to do, is show under certain circumstances, it is harder to get permission to have a gun in the USA than it is in the UK.

The emphasis is on circumstances. I was never making a direct comparison or making a generalisation.
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Old 18th February 2018, 12:05 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Earlier you were claiming that CCW is a license for possession, which it is not.

Nor is a CCW required to take a gun out in public, in Texas.
You are nitpicking over wording. This (which I was referring to as CCW permit, sorry it is a LTC)

https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/LTC/faqs/index.htm

is harder (as in it needs more to do) to get than a firearms licence in the UK.
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Old 18th February 2018, 12:06 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's easier for me to legally possess a gun in Texas than in the UK. And it's easier for me to legally carry a concealed firearm in Texas, than in the UK.

Do you agree with these two comparisons of like to like?
Yes. It is easier for me to get a licence for a firearm licence in the UK than it would be for me to get a LTC in Texas.
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Old 18th February 2018, 12:24 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
As they are fast-flying it is ridiculous to attempt to use anything other than an AR-15 (although *obviously* an M-16 would be better)
I was out riding my bike last year with a mate through some of the wooded trails near here and we stopped at the top of a hill overlooking a valley that a load of pheasant shooters had setup at.

There were ~10 or so people lined up at the bottom of the valley and another 10 or so people behind them chasing pheasants out of the trees/bushes.

There's an almighty kerfuffle and suddenly about 10 birds take to the air and fly directly over the heads of all the shooters who suddenly spring into action and a volley of 20 or so rounds are let loose.

Not one single hit was scored and all of the birds continued flying away into the distance.

One of the funniest things I've seen while out for a ride.
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Old 18th February 2018, 12:31 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I was out riding my bike last year with a mate through some of the wooded trails near here and we stopped at the top of a hill overlooking a valley that a load of pheasant shooters had setup at.

There were ~10 or so people lined up at the bottom of the valley and another 10 or so people behind them chasing pheasants out of the trees/bushes.

There's an almighty kerfuffle and suddenly about 10 birds take to the air and fly directly over the heads of all the shooters who suddenly spring into action and a volley of 20 or so rounds are let loose.

Not one single hit was scored and all of the birds continued flying away into the distance.

One of the funniest things I've seen while out for a ride.
Little known fact, but pheasants are one of the most intelligent animals on the planet

They make little bird bullet proof vests out of walnut shells and tie them on using strands of cotton that they buy from local clothing factories in exchange for feathers the workers use to make small down pillows for their pet guinea pigs.
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Old 18th February 2018, 12:44 PM   #173
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I happen to know how you can legally buy guns in Britain. You buy an antique gun which takes obsolete ammunition. Percussion guns, and rim fire guns, and flintlock guns are perfectly legal and on sale in antique shops. The only problem you have is loading them.
Apart from that you can apply for a gun licence to own a single shot rifle or a shotgun.
But you have to give the police a good reason for owning one.
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Old 18th February 2018, 12:50 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A concealed carry weapon permit is permission to carry a gun, not a knife.

There are different types of licence in the UK, some are easier to get than others. Is it wrong to compare them?
Have you missed the significance of "concealed" here?
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Old 18th February 2018, 12:54 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I happen to know how you can legally buy guns in Britain. You buy an antique gun which takes obsolete ammunition. Percussion guns, and rim fire guns, and flintlock guns are perfectly legal and on sale in antique shops. The only problem you have is loading them.
The cut off for that is 1939 and the start of WWII;

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/articl...-calibre-list/

A modern weapon with obsolete ammo needs a licence. I did a licence for a Luger pistol which the owners father had procured during WWII from an SS officer.

Quote:
Apart from that you can apply for a gun licence to own a single shot rifle or a shotgun.
But you have to give the police a good reason for owning one.
You don't legally need a reason to have a shotgun, but the police ask anyway.
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Old 18th February 2018, 12:56 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Have you missed the significance of "concealed" here?
No, but I was wrong to call it a CCW, it is a LTC. Sorry. A Texan LTC is harder to get that a UK firearms or shotgun certificate.
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Old 18th February 2018, 01:05 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
By loaded, I would include a broken shotgun which has cartridges in it. I am amazed someone lost a gun purely for carrying it unbroken. He did not break any law;

"Carrying firearm in a public place.
A person commits an offence if, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) he has with him in a public place
[F1(a)a loaded shot gun...."

as it was his own field (not public, he has lawful authority to be there with a gun) so he does not need a reasonable excuse to possess as it is not public.

The law also does not specify that the shotgun has to be broken, just it cannot be carried in a public place whilst loaded.
You don't have to break a law to have your license removed. Secondly, he was in a group of people, and was on a public footpath (on his land). Anyway, whatever the rights and wrongs, that's what happened, and as an illustration of how seriously gun safety is taken I thought it useful.
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Old 18th February 2018, 01:44 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
All I have done and intended to do, is show under certain circumstances, it is harder to get permission to have a gun in the USA than it is in the UK.

The emphasis is on circumstances. I was never making a direct comparison or making a generalisation.
You are comparing unlike circumstances, and getting unlike results. You're also equivocating between possession and use.

What happens when you compare like circumstances between the two countries? Possession vs possession? Concealed carry vs concealed carry?

Is concealed carry, as licensed in Texas, even possible for private citizens in the UK?
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Old 18th February 2018, 01:46 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Yes. It is easier for me to get a licence for a firearm licence in the UK than it would be for me to get a LTC in Texas.
It's easier for me to get a licence to drive a car than it is to get a licence to drive an HGV. Apples and oranges.
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Old 18th February 2018, 01:52 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You don't have to break a law to have your license removed. Secondly, he was in a group of people, and was on a public footpath (on his land). Anyway, whatever the rights and wrongs, that's what happened, and as an illustration of how seriously gun safety is taken I thought it useful.
The only way his licence can be legally removed is if he broke the law or did something that casts doubt on his suitability to have a gun.

What he did was hardly dangerous, of dubious illegality and I am saddened he lost his licence over a trivial issue.
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Old 18th February 2018, 01:53 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
All I have done and intended to do, is show under certain circumstances, it is harder to get permission to have a gun in the USA than it is in the UK.

The emphasis is on circumstances. I was never making a direct comparison or making a generalisation.
You were trying to debunk a myth about the difficulty of getting a gun in the UK, and chose an inapt comparison to support your claim. Compare like for like, and then see if there's any myth to debunk.
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Old 18th February 2018, 01:55 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You are comparing unlike circumstances, and getting unlike results. You're also equivocating between possession and use.

What happens when you compare like circumstances between the two countries? Possession vs possession? Concealed carry vs concealed carry?

Is concealed carry, as licensed in Texas, even possible for private citizens in the UK?
Overall, under all circumstances, it is easier to get a gun in the USA than it is in the UK. There are very few exceptions to that. I pointed to one.

I only did so, to try and dispel some of the myths about UK firearms.
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Old 18th February 2018, 01:56 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You are nitpicking over wording. This (which I was referring to as CCW permit, sorry it is a LTC)

https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/LTC/faqs/index.htm

is harder (as in it needs more to do) to get than a firearms licence in the UK.
You're still equivocating different things. The wording is important, because it describes specific activities that are not the same in each case being compared.

In order to compare the relative difficulty of the the same activity in two different jurisdictions, you must actually consider the same activity. Not different activities.
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Old 18th February 2018, 01:57 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Yes. It is easier for me to get a licence for a firearm licence in the UK than it would be for me to get a LTC in Texas.
The two licenses don't grant the same privileges. Of course they're different to obtain. How is this so difficult to understand?
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Old 18th February 2018, 01:58 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You were trying to debunk a myth about the difficulty of getting a gun in the UK, and chose an inapt comparison to support your claim. Compare like for like, and then see if there's any myth to debunk.
The myth I was tackling is that it is very difficult to get a gun in the UK. By showing a form that is no harder to complete than a passport application and pointing out it is easier to get a UK firearms licence than a Texan LTC, I think I have done enough to show it is not actually that hard to get a gun here.

You may disagree.
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Old 18th February 2018, 02:07 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Overall, under all circumstances, it is easier to get a gun in the USA than it is in the UK. There are very few exceptions to that. I pointed to one.

I only did so, to try and dispel some of the myths about UK firearms.
It's not an exception, because it is not a comparison of like for like.
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Old 18th February 2018, 02:11 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not an exception, because it is not a comparison of like for like.
There are three main forms of firearms licences in the UK, firearm (which is basically a rifle), shotgun and dealers. There are numerous forms of licence/permit in the USA.

Compare them all and the vast majority of US licences/permits are easier to get than UK, with only a few exceptions.

That is what I am referring to.
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Old 18th February 2018, 02:19 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There are three main forms of firearms licences in the UK, firearm (which is basically a rifle), shotgun and dealers. There are numerous forms of licence/permit in the USA.

Compare them all and the vast majority of US licences/permits are easier to get than UK, with only a few exceptions.

That is what I am referring to.
How difficult is it to to get a license to carry a handgun in public, in the UK? Like, walk down the streets of London with a loaded pistol in your belt? That's what a Texas LTC permits. What's the equivalent license in the UK, and how hard is it to get?
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Old 18th February 2018, 02:29 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How difficult is it to to get a license to carry a handgun in public, in the UK? Like, walk down the streets of London with a loaded pistol in your belt? That's what a Texas LTC permits. What's the equivalent license in the UK, and how hard is it to get?
We keep telling you that pistols (handguns) are outlawed. Forbidden. Illegal. You cannot own one, let alone carry one. The only people in the country allowed to have use of pistols are police and armed service personal, and even the latter aren't allowed to walk around town with one. They'd be in prison pronto if they did (in fact a decorated army officer bought a souvenir pistol back from Afghanistan a few years back and ended up in gaol, and that gun never left his home until it was confiscated). The police are only routinely armed at international airports.

-

It occurs to me that vets used to have pistols for killing horses (at point-blank range). Does anyone know what they do instead these days?
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Last edited by MikeG; 18th February 2018 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 18th February 2018, 02:33 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How difficult is it to to get a license to carry a handgun in public, in the UK? Like, walk down the streets of London with a loaded pistol in your belt? That's what a Texas LTC permits. What's the equivalent license in the UK, and how hard is it to get?
There is no equivalent.

You are still missing the point I am making. Lets say there are 27 different forms of licence and permit to have a gun in the USA. Of those 25 are easier to get than a UK firearms licence and 2 are harder. That would make those 2 an exception.
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Old 18th February 2018, 02:44 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
We keep telling you that pistols (handguns) are outlawed. Forbidden. Illegal.
That is wrong. It is perfectly legal to own single shot pistols in the UK.

Quote:
You cannot own one, let alone carry one. The only people in the country allowed to have use of pistols are police and armed service personal, and even the latter aren't allowed to walk around town with one. They'd be in prison pronto if they did (in fact a decorated army officer bought a souvenir pistol back from Afghanistan a few years back and ended up in gaol, and that gun never left his home until it was confiscated). The police are only routinely armed at international airports.

-

It occurs to me that vets used to have pistols for killing horses (at point-blank range). Does anyone know what they do instead these days?
A humane killer;

https://www.hsa.org.uk/humane-killin.../humane-killer

"A purpose-made, single-shot weapon, which has a chamfered muzzle and vented barrel to facilitate its use with the muzzle end of the barrel in full contact with the target.

There are two types of purpose-made humane killers; the Greener ‘Bell Gun’ (no longer available new, but still widely used; originally manufactured in .310 calibre, but many have now been converted to .32); and the single-shot pistol (usually .32 calibre)."

There are humane killers which do not fire a bullet and are not firearms;

https://www.gunstar.co.uk/Humane-Kil.../AE/Other-Guns

Captive bolt stunners are usually used first and they were removed from the requirement to have a firearms licence in 1998

https://www.hsa.org.uk/faqs/industry#n5

"Captive-bolt stunners were de-classified from their 'Section 1' firearms status in the UK in February 1998. This means that a firearms permit is no longer required for purchase, possession or use of the percussive device."
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Old 18th February 2018, 02:45 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I know it is not an exact comparison, but the point stands, there are instances where it is harder to get a gun in the USA than it is in the UK.
"Get a gun" does not mean the same thing as "carry a loaded handgun in a public place concealed on your person." Handguns are routinely available to all adults to own and possess in the U.S. unless there are specific, narrow grounds to prohibit individuals (convicted felon, adjudicated insane etc.) from obtaining one. You do NOT need a CCP to buy and keep a handgun.
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Old 18th February 2018, 02:50 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There is no equivalent.

You are still missing the point I am making. Lets say there are 27 different forms of licence and permit to have a gun in the USA. Of those 25 are easier to get than a UK firearms licence and 2 are harder. That would make those 2 an exception.
You're still not getting it. NO FORM OF LICENSE is required for most adults to buy and keep a handgun or rifle in the U.S. (with a few local exceptions). Anyone can go to any licensed firearms dealer, compete an instant background check on the spot (again, with some local exceptions), and walk away with a shiny new Glock or Taurus semi-auto and as much ammo as he can carry. A CCP is a license that grants specific privileges to specific individuals under specific circumstances. It's like comparing the requirements for obtaining a commercial trucker's license to the right to buy a bicycle.

Last edited by Bob001; 18th February 2018 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 18th February 2018, 02:55 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You're still not getting it. NO FORM OF LICENSE is required for most adults to buy and keep a handgun or rifle in the U.S. (with a few local exceptions). Anyone can go to any licensed firearms dealer, compete an instant background check on the spot (again, with some local exceptions), and walk away with a shiny new Glock or Taurus semi-auto and as much ammo as he can carry.
You trying to make this sound like a good thing...
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Old 18th February 2018, 02:55 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That is wrong. It is perfectly legal to own single shot pistols in the UK........
Only if they are muzzle loaders.

Wiki:


Quote:
The 1997 law did not ban pistols as such and was drafted in terms of small firearms.[24]:3.2 British law defines a "pistol" as a firearm with a barrel shorter than 30 cm (12 in) or a total length of less than 60 cm (24 in)[27] (this definition encompasses revolvers, revolving pistols). Only muzzle-loading pistols—including muzzle-loading revolvers—are permitted; in practice all such firearms use black powder—a Class 1 explosive—as the propellant. Small quantities of muzzle-loading pistols and revolvers in various calibres, which comply with the regulations, are manufactured.[28] All other pistols are prohibited in Great Britain, with some exceptions such as pistols used for the humane dispatch of injured animals (such as deer) and some historical firearms.
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Last edited by MikeG; 18th February 2018 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 18th February 2018, 03:01 PM   #196
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
You trying to make this sound like a good thing...
Of course not. I'm making the point that there is no basis to claim that U.S. firearms laws are more stringent than the UK's. Comparing what you have to do in Texas to carry a loaded Colt .45 under your jacket to what the UK requires for you to keep an unloaded single-shot .22 locked up in your garage doesn't make much sense.
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Old 18th February 2018, 03:40 PM   #197
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I know how to get a glock handgun and an mp5 machine gun in England. Mug a policeman.
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Old 18th February 2018, 03:41 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I know how to get a glock handgun and an mp5 machine gun in England. Mug a policeman.
Might be safer to train as a policeman.
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Old 18th February 2018, 03:43 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I know how to get a glock handgun and an mp5 machine gun in England. Mug a policeman.
Armed police work in pairs. You'd have to mug two.
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Old 18th February 2018, 03:58 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Overall, under all circumstances, it is easier to get a gun in the USA than it is in the UK.

The claim in the OP has nothing at all to do with the US.

The claim was that if you have plenty of money it is easy to get a gun in the UK.

Which is provably true.

And yet the OP was ridiculed for it by several people in the UK as well as by members of management. Trying to conceal jealousy sure does make people act weird...
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