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Old 20th February 2018, 04:02 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
And do you understand yet that you can't legally buy a pistol at all here?

(Nessie's silly hair-splitting aside. No-one buys muzzle loading single shot weapons).
I know a few.
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Old 20th February 2018, 04:03 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I should probably have said England and Wales, as opposed to the British Isles. I haven't spent much time in Scotland at all, and never visited Glasgow; now I'll never know what I missed.
Grangetown and Southbank? Surely not Billingham?
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Old 20th February 2018, 04:04 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The worst parts are not in Glasgow. Try Paisley, where an area called Ferguslie Park is, under a number of indexes, the most deprived part of Scotland. It looks unassuming enough now, after many older houses were knocked down and replaced with more modern ones, but the people are just the same.
I like Paisley, I go there a few times a year for work. I stay at the Old Mill and drink in the town with no bother.
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Old 20th February 2018, 04:22 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I like Paisley, I go there a few times a year for work. I stay at the Old Mill and drink in the town with no bother.

Do you mean the Watermill Hotel?
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Old 20th February 2018, 04:25 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Do you mean the Watermill Hotel?
Just by the bridge? That's probably its name.
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Old 20th February 2018, 09:29 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I should probably have said England and Wales, as opposed to the British Isles. I haven't spent much time in Scotland at all, and never visited Glasgow; now I'll never know what I missed.

Oooh, you haven't lived until you have strolled down Sauchiehall Street on a Friday night...

(the locals call it "Sucky Hole" street... and not without good reason.)

A Scotsman from Edinburgh once asked me if I knew what the difference was between a Glaswegian and an Edinburger. His answer was...


"Glaswegians eat their young!!
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Old 20th February 2018, 10:57 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You can legally buy certain pistols here and that has nothing to do with the comparison I was making. Indeed all the other comparisons you are making have nothing to do with the one I made and as predicted, you are making lots of strawmen.
Without dragging this out forever, I note a fundamental difference between US and UK firearms regulations: In the UK, you have to prove to authorities that you have a good reason to own a firearm, and self-defense is not a valid reason; in the U.S., you don't have to explain anything to anybody to buy a gun, and self-defense is a sacred (no exaggeration) principle.
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:48 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You can legally buy certain pistols here......
I really wish you would cut out this crap. Single shot muzzle loaders. Write that out instead of "pistols" whenever you feel like gormlessly repeating "you can buy... here". If you aren't aware of how misleading and seemingly deliberately water-muddying this repeated over-stated hair splitting is, then you damn well should be. To all intents and purposes, no civilian is allowed to own a pistol in the UK.
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:51 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
And do you understand yet that you can't legally buy a pistol at all here?

(Nessie's silly hair-splitting aside. No-one buys muzzle loading single shot weapons).
Although I'm on ignore from you, I thought I'd pop in to say I have two muzzle loaders. Could somebody quote me to show MikeG.

Last edited by bluesjnr; 21st February 2018 at 01:54 AM.
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:57 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Althpough I'm on ignore form you, I thought I'd pop in to say I have two muzzle loaders. Could somebody quote me to show MikeG.
I would, but it would be pointless.....

This Is The End's views on the subject seem to be taken directly from the Daily Mail/Daily Express and have a similar lack of basis in reality.

Even if 3-D printing of guns becomes a thing (as I understand it, currently a 3D printed gun presents more of a risk to the user than the target), the user still faces the problem of acquiring ammunition.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:00 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oooh, you haven't lived until you have strolled down Sauchiehall Street on a Friday night...

(the locals call it "Sucky Hole" street... and not without good reason.)

A Scotsman from Edinburgh once asked me if I knew what the difference was between a Glaswegian and an Edinburger. His answer was...


"Glaswegians eat their young!!
Spent a couple of years working there and had many a Friday night out. The only times I felt properly uneasy in Glasgow were on the Saturdays of a Old Firm game - the atmosphere was very edgy to say the least.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:09 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
(Nessie's silly hair-splitting aside. No-one buys muzzle loading single shot weapons).
Since you have to be aware of re-enactors, I can only assume the above is meant to mean something else?
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:10 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Without dragging this out forever, I note a fundamental difference between US and UK firearms regulations: In the UK, you have to prove to authorities that you have a good reason to own a firearm, and self-defense is not a valid reason; in the U.S., you don't have to explain anything to anybody to buy a gun, and self-defense is a sacred (no exaggeration) principle.
It is in the UK as well, the USA inherited its concept of a right to self defence from English common law. The difference between the countries is usually what is a reasonable and proportionate action in certain circumstances rather than the principle. I can legally kill someone if I was defending myself and my actions were considered legally reasonable and proportionate. That would include using a firearm (if the firearm was not legally owned I would more than likely be charged with a firearm offence but that would be separate to a charge for manslaughter or murder).
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:17 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oooh, you haven't lived until you have strolled down Sauchiehall Street on a Friday night...

(the locals call it "Sucky Hole" street... and not without good reason.)

A Scotsman from Edinburgh once asked me if I knew what the difference was between a Glaswegian and an Edinburger. His answer was...


"Glaswegians eat their young!!

Not at all. Glasgow is a great night out.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:20 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It is in the UK as well, the USA inherited its concept of a right to self defence from English common law. The difference between the countries is usually what is a reasonable and proportionate action in certain circumstances rather than the principle. I can legally kill someone if I was defending myself and my actions were considered legally reasonable and proportionate. That would include using a firearm (if the firearm was not legally owned I would more than likely be charged with a firearm offence but that would be separate to a charge for manslaughter or murder).
It's difficult to think of circumstances in which using a firearm to defend yourself is legal in the UK. Given that your weapons should be locked away safely in a gun safe, with ammunition separate (as I understand it), going and fetching a gun isn't really a spur-of-the-moment thing in the way that bashing an intruder with a fire poker or Ming vase is. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it isn't as simple as you make it sound. You probably can't defend your home against burglars with a shotgun is what it boils down to.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:36 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Without dragging this out forever, I note a fundamental difference between US and UK firearms regulations: In the UK, you have to prove to authorities that you have a good reason to own a firearm, and self-defense is not a valid reason; in the U.S., you don't have to explain anything to anybody to buy a gun, and self-defense is a sacred (no exaggeration) principle.
It's even the same in some of the lawless colonies.

Many years ago I applied for a licence in South Africa. You did it through the local police station. When I mentioned self defence the cop told me that was not a valid reason and to write target shooting on the application.

I'm sure a .38 special is the ideal target shooting tool.

As an aside, I got one for the *********** evil witch from hell as well (my ex). The only time hers ever got used was to take a shot at me through the bedroom window. She missed.

The only time mine ever nearly got used was over a parking altercation.

I sold both of them soon afterwards, deciding neither of us was really fit to own the bloody things.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:45 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Without dragging this out forever, I note a fundamental difference between US and UK firearms regulations: In the UK, you have to prove to authorities that you have a good reason to own a firearm, and self-defense is not a valid reason; in the U.S., you don't have to explain anything to anybody to buy a gun, and self-defense is a sacred (no exaggeration) principle.
You don't have to show any reason to possess a shotgun. Guns can be used in self defence, it is just not a good reason to get one purely for self defence. If you are in genuine need of such defence, the police will provide an armed guard, or certain people (PSNI officers and secret services) can have a gun.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:50 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I really wish you would cut out this crap. Single shot muzzle loaders. Write that out instead of "pistols" whenever you feel like gormlessly repeating "you can buy... here". If you aren't aware of how misleading and seemingly deliberately water-muddying this repeated over-stated hair splitting is, then you damn well should be. To all intents and purposes, no civilian is allowed to own a pistol in the UK.
http://www.bristolmuzzleloaders.co.u...olshooting.htm

"The Bristol Muzzle and Breech Loading Gun Club Shoots pistols at two Home Office approved pistol clubs in the local area. Both clubs have the facility to shoot black powder pistol and under lever rifle."

https://en-gb.facebook.com/events/124429771529814/

"Scottish Black Powder Pistol Championships
Public Hosted by Ardeer Rifle & Pistol Club"

How am I being misleading when the people who own the pistols call them pistols and they have pistol shoots and pistol competitions?????
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:52 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Not at all. Glasgow is a great night out.
Paisley has improved dramatically over the past few years. The Bull in New Street is a work of art inside.
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Old 21st February 2018, 03:17 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
http://www.bristolmuzzleloaders.co.u...olshooting.htm

"The Bristol Muzzle and Breech Loading Gun Club Shoots pistols at two Home Office approved pistol clubs in the local area. Both clubs have the facility to shoot black powder pistol and under lever rifle."

https://en-gb.facebook.com/events/124429771529814/

"Scottish Black Powder Pistol Championships
Public Hosted by Ardeer Rifle & Pistol Club"

How am I being misleading when the people who own the pistols call them pistols and they have pistol shoots and pistol competitions?????
Because you are communicating with people whose understanding of a hand-gun ban in the UK is now being changed to seeing it as a partial ban, as a result of your stupid repetition of this minor exception. You seem to be doing this deliberately. Every time someone says handguns are banned, you pipe back with the 0.01% exception. This trivial exception is an utter irrelevance, yet you whitter on about it endlessly. Do you not understand that prattling on about the most obscure and irrelevant exception to the near universal ban is misleading?

How many muzzle loading single shot pistols are there in the UK? A few hundred? A sense of perspective would certainly help here. "Pistols aren't banned", your constant refrain, shows absolutely no sense of perspective whatever.
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Old 21st February 2018, 03:27 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
If you are in genuine need of such defence, the police will provide an armed guard
Maybe 50 years ago they did. Now what they'll do is send you a letter, known as an Osman warning, and wish you good luck.
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Old 21st February 2018, 04:50 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
In 10 years the price and quality of 3D Printers will make this entire BS about "No way can someone with enough money acquire a gun on our streets!!"* entirely moot.

I suppose the UK will then have to ban sulfur, potassium nitrate, and charcoal...
Why? Are they going to be 3D printing flintlocks?

Quote:
*Always said by someone who has never actually been on the streets.
As opposed to a pontificating wannabe internet gangsta?
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Old 21st February 2018, 04:53 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
So how much experience does This Is The End have of 'UK streets'?
He probably saw Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels once.
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Old 21st February 2018, 04:56 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To an order of magnitude, probably about as much experience as anyone else here.
Well, consider that some of us do actually live in the UK, we probably have a bit more of an edge.
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Old 21st February 2018, 05:01 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Without dragging this out forever, I note a fundamental difference between US and UK firearms regulations: In the UK, you have to prove to authorities that you have a good reason to own a firearm, and self-defense is not a valid reason; in the U.S., you don't have to explain anything to anybody to buy a gun, and self-defense is a sacred (no exaggeration) principle.
Not for a Shotgun Certificate. Not being either mental or a convicted criminal is enough, and having a secure gun cabinet is enough.
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Old 21st February 2018, 05:04 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Not at all. Glasgow is a great night out.
When I go back to Glasgow I usually stay at the Holiday Inn at one end of Sauchiehall street (West Nile St) and take my 12 year old to meet friends at the Sichuan House (try the lamb with cummin) and walk back late and I feel far more secure than I would in central London.
Iain Banks "Espedair Street":
Quote:
I'd sooner walk through Glasgow alone at night than through London with a bodyguard. For New York, I think I'd want air support
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Old 21st February 2018, 05:07 AM   #307
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On topic: there were a few stories around 10 years back about gun shortages in the UK. I thought this amusing
Quote:
IN A turf war in Birmingham, the two gangs involved used the same gun for their tit-for-tat shootings, renting it in turn from the same third party, says Martin Parker, head of forensics at the National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS).
Source:
https://www.economist.com/news/brita...-low-guns-hire
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Old 21st February 2018, 05:23 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I really wish you would cut out this crap. Single shot muzzle loaders. Write that out instead of "pistols" whenever you feel like gormlessly repeating "you can buy... here". If you aren't aware of how misleading and seemingly deliberately water-muddying this repeated over-stated hair splitting is, then you damn well should be. To all intents and purposes, no civilian is allowed to own a pistol in the UK.
Cap-and-ball revolvers are technically muzzle-loading, and are thus legal. Some models have removable cylinders that can be loaded in advance, and changed as quickly as a magazine in a semi-automatic. Basically pistols like this, both originals and modern reproductions:

Remington Model 1858

Long-barrelled pistols (revolvers in "any" calibre, semi-autos in .22 LR) or those that meet other length requirements (e.g. with non-removable balance rods or butt extensions) can also be legally held on a Firearms Certificate.
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Old 21st February 2018, 07:01 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
When I go back to Glasgow I usually stay at the Holiday Inn at one end of Sauchiehall street (West Nile St) and take my 12 year old to meet friends at the Sichuan House (try the lamb with cummin) and walk back late and I feel far more secure than I would in central London.
Iain Banks "Espedair Street":
I walked all over Manhatten at all times of the day and night and never had a problem. Felt far safer there than London. I looked up your quote, its from 1987. Bit out of date now, New York was apparently far scarier back inthe 80's.
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Old 21st February 2018, 07:07 AM   #310
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If we're going for anecdote, in the early-mid 90s myself and a female friend would often walk all over London, late at night into the early hours, and never encountered any sort of problem whatsoever.
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Old 21st February 2018, 07:27 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Because you are communicating with people whose understanding of a hand-gun ban in the UK is now being changed to seeing it as a partial ban, as a result of your stupid repetition of this minor exception. You seem to be doing this deliberately. Every time someone says handguns are banned, you pipe back with the 0.01% exception. This trivial exception is an utter irrelevance, yet you whitter on about it endlessly. Do you not understand that prattling on about the most obscure and irrelevant exception to the near universal ban is misleading?

How many muzzle loading single shot pistols are there in the UK? A few hundred? A sense of perspective would certainly help here. "Pistols aren't banned", your constant refrain, shows absolutely no sense of perspective whatever.
It would help if it could be evidenced what percentage black powder pistols are, of all firearms.

It is also less misleading to show there is a subset of handguns not banned, than it is to claim all are banned.
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Old 21st February 2018, 07:29 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Maybe 50 years ago they did. Now what they'll do is send you a letter, known as an Osman warning, and wish you good luck.
Or take people into protective custody or have armed guards. It is rare, but it does happen.
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Old 21st February 2018, 07:36 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by philkensebben View Post
I walked all over Manhatten at all times of the day and night and never had a problem. Felt far safer there than London. I looked up your quote, its from 1987. Bit out of date now, New York was apparently far scarier back inthe 80's.
I worked in Boston and spent time in NY in 1986. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time when guns were either drawn or discharged 4 times, three times in Boston and once in NY. I saw a police officer shoot at someone, other police officers draw guns on a group of drug dealers who had just tried to sell me drugs and was near (as in within a hundred yards) to two shootings. One was at the building I was working in and the other was in a subway entrance whilst I was in a cinema queue across the road.

That plus spending most of my career on and off dealing with firearms licensing, starting with assisting the seizure of the rapid fire weapons banned after Hungerford, is why I retain an interest in the subject.
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Old 21st February 2018, 07:39 AM   #314
MikeG
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It would help if it could be evidenced what percentage black powder pistols are, of all firearms...........
No it wouldn't, given that as the remainder of hand-guns were banned, generally collected in and destroyed, that figure is going to be approaching 100% of extant handguns, and thus meaningless.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
.......It is also less misleading to show there is a subset of handguns not banned, than it is to claim all are banned.
No it isn't. If the figure banned were, say, 99.99% of the total handguns in the country, it is clearly much closer to the truth to say "handguns have been banned" than it is to say (as you keep doing) "no, they're not banned".
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Old 21st February 2018, 07:44 AM   #315
Nessie
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No it wouldn't, given that as the remainder of hand-guns were banned, generally collected in and destroyed, that figure is going to be approaching 100% of handguns, and thus meaningless.
I said "all firearms".

Quote:
No it isn't. If the figure banned were, say, 99.99% of the total handguns in the country, it is clearly much closer to the truth to say "handguns have been banned" than it is to say (as you keep doing) "no, they're not banned".
Or, the truth, which is there is a small exception to the handgun ban. I don't going around claiming handguns are not banned. Strawman.
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Old 21st February 2018, 07:44 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It would help if it could be evidenced what percentage black powder pistols are, of all firearms.
Some, I imagine, useful information in this FOI release, though I don't know enough about the technicalities to really understand this in detail.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-great-britain
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Old 21st February 2018, 07:44 AM   #317
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Besides, if we're going down that route for black powder pistols, then you could claim that "not all artillery is banned" on the basis that I can get a smooth bore cannon.
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Old 21st February 2018, 07:49 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Well, consider that some of us do actually live in the UK, we probably have a bit more of an edge.
Not enough to make a significant difference, is my guess. How much has your time in the UK informed your understanding of the black market for firearms there? Do you have any special insights into the availability of black market firearms? Anything that you can share from your personal experience as a resident of a UK, about acquiring a black market firearm? Probably not.
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Old 21st February 2018, 07:53 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Some, I imagine, useful information in this FOI release, though I don't know enough about the technicalities to really understand this in detail.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-great-britain
A bit awkward that it's the user that defines the weapon, but the following I think are the black powder ones...

Black Powder Pistol 21
Black Powder Revolver 35
Black Powder Rifle 16
Blunderbuss 7
Cannon 885 (that's a large number, so not sure, maybe some people declaring their muskets as such?)
Cap and Ball Pistol 4
Cap and Ball Revolver 17
Field Gun 10 (guessing actually cannon)
Musket 59
Musketoon 2
Muzzle Loading Pistol 188
Muzzle Loading Revolver 265
Muzzle Loading Rifle 17

So even with the large number of "cannon" that's, what, less than 1500?

Compare with just the ones declared as a Rifle:
Rifle 364517

Never mind the other big categories.
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Old 21st February 2018, 07:55 AM   #320
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See also : 'B/P Pistol' and similar.
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