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Old 21st February 2018, 07:57 AM   #321
Hubert Cumberdale
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
A bit awkward that it's the user that defines the weapon, but the following I think are the black powder ones...

Black Powder Pistol 21
Black Powder Revolver 35
Black Powder Rifle 16
Blunderbuss 7
Cannon 885 (that's a large number, so not sure, maybe some people declaring their muskets as such?)
Cap and Ball Pistol 4
Cap and Ball Revolver 17
Field Gun 10 (guessing actually cannon)
Musket 59
Musketoon 2
Muzzle Loading Pistol 188
Muzzle Loading Revolver 265
Muzzle Loading Rifle 17

So even with the large number of "cannon" that's, what, less than 1500?

Compare with just the ones declared as a Rifle:
Rifle 364517

Never mind the other big categories.
Could "Cannon" include people like English Heritage/Historic Dockyards etc declaring their wares?
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Old 21st February 2018, 08:03 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I don't going around claiming handguns are not banned. Strawman.
Yes you do:

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
We keep telling you that pistols (handguns) are outlawed. Forbidden. Illegal....
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That is wrong.
If you had said "pretty much, with the trivial exception of blah blah" then you'd have a leg to stand on. But oh no, you went straight to "That is wrong".
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Old 21st February 2018, 08:35 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Some, I imagine, useful information in this FOI release, though I don't know enough about the technicalities to really understand this in detail.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-great-britain
Basically all items held on current Firearms Certificates in 2014, totalling 637,642 in all. Of them, 48,557 are handguns of various types (not counting flare pistols). The vast bulk (47,670) are merely described as handguns (69), pistols (23,935), or revolvers (23,666). Of the rest, 279 are stated to be "long," and - through various terminology - 607 are black powder weapons. In addition there are 1,017 humane killers, most if not all of which will be handguns.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 21st February 2018 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 21st February 2018, 08:41 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
A bit awkward that it's the user that defines the weapon, but the following I think are the black powder ones...

Black Powder Pistol 21
Black Powder Revolver 35

Black Powder Rifle 16
Blunderbuss 7
Cannon 885 (that's a large number, so not sure, maybe some people declaring their muskets as such?)
Cap and Ball Pistol 4
Cap and Ball Revolver 17

Field Gun 10 (guessing actually cannon)
Musket 59
Musketoon 2
Muzzle Loading Pistol 188
Muzzle Loading Revolver 265

Muzzle Loading Rifle 17

So even with the large number of "cannon" that's, what, less than 1500?

Compare with just the ones declared as a Rifle:
Rifle 364517

Never mind the other big categories.
I make that 539 handguns.

Out of 1.86 million licensed firearms.

0.03% of the total. One in every 3500 legally held firearms.

Does that help with perspective, Nessie?
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Last edited by MikeG; 21st February 2018 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 21st February 2018, 08:47 AM   #325
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I missed those entirely!
Still, that's another 100?

Essentially, black powder weapons as a whole (and not just pistols) are a teeny tiny percentage of registered weapons.

ETA: Hmm, must have had this window open longer than I thought!
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Old 21st February 2018, 08:50 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
Could "Cannon" include people like English Heritage/Historic Dockyards etc declaring their wares?
Ah!
I think you might be onto something there.
I suppose they would have to be registered as well.

I was thinking that's a lot of artillery for the sealed knot!
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Old 21st February 2018, 08:56 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not enough to make a significant difference, is my guess. How much has your time in the UK informed your understanding of the black market for firearms there? Do you have any special insights into the availability of black market firearms? Anything that you can share from your personal experience as a resident of a UK, about acquiring a black market firearm? Probably not.
I've certainly read up more on firearms than most people, and yes, the reality of the black market - as opposite to media hysteria - is part of that. People could try reading this Home Office report, for example, which I've known about since around the time it was published.

I'm not going to get into any sort of self-incriminating pissing contest about what sort of "connections" I may or may not have.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:00 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Basically all items held on current Firearms Certificates in 2014, totalling 637,642 in all. Of them, 48,557 are handguns of various types (not counting flare pistols). The vast bulk (47,670) are merely described as handguns (69), pistols (23,935), or revolvers (23,666). Of the rest, 279 are stated to be "long," and - through various terminology - 607 are black powder weapons. In addition there are 1,017 humane killers, most if not all of which will be handguns.
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I make that 539 handguns.

Out of 1.86 million licensed firearms.

0.03% of the total. One in every 3500 legally held firearms.

Does that help with perspective, Nessie?
What about the other 48,557 non BP handguns, pistols and revolvers?
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:02 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I make that 539 handguns.

Out of 1.86 million licensed firearms.

0.03% of the total. One in every 3500 legally held firearms.

Does that help with perspective, Nessie?
As above, there are actually at least 48,557 handguns of various types. That compares with around 160,000 handguns surrendered post-Dunblane.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:05 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
As above, there are actually at least 48,557 handguns of various types. That compares with around 160,000 handguns surrendered post-Dunblane.
I'm talking about the black powder ones that Nessie goes on about. The others are presumably police weapons or somesuch.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:08 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Essentially, black powder weapons as a whole (and not just pistols) are a teeny tiny percentage of registered weapons.
Except there are undoubtedly many included in 47,670 in the vague "handgun," "pistol," and "revolver" descriptions.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:10 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I'm talking about the black powder ones that Nessie goes on about. The others are presumably police weapons or somesuch.
Police weapons are not on regular FACs, quite apart from the fact that centre-fire handguns as used by the police are Section 5 firearms. The list is civilian-held Section 1 firearms. By definition the bulk of handguns will be either black powder or long pistols, whether they're specified as such in the list or not.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 21st February 2018 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:11 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Except there are undoubtedly many included in 47,670 in the vague "handgun," "pistol," and "revolver" descriptions.
Possibly, though having met a few owners of such they are rather proud of their toys-that-go-boom, so they're likely (IMO) to be more detailed about their descriptions. I know I would.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:18 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not enough to make a significant difference, is my guess. How much has your time in the UK informed your understanding of the black market for firearms there? Do you have any special insights into the availability of black market firearms? Anything that you can share from your personal experience as a resident of a UK, about acquiring a black market firearm? Probably not.
And it is a guess. It's also a good example of begging the question. We maintain that guns are an extreme rarity on the streets, then you assume the accuracy of the original contrary opinion (also a guess) and we are asked to prove our assertions by sharing experience of guns not being a rarity on our streets. Ever thought that people don't have experience of black market guns because of what everyone is telling you; black market guns are an extreme rarity?
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:21 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Police weapons are not on regular FACs. The list will all be civilian-held items. By definition the bulk of handguns will be either black powder or long pistols, whether they're specified as such in the list or not.
Well then I guess the majority of those are air pistols. The rest will be antiques in collections, plus those kept permanently at gun clubs.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:33 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well then I guess the majority of those are air pistols. The rest will be antiques in collections, plus those kept permanently at gun clubs.
Air pistols and rifles don't need licensing unless they're exceptionally high-powered. There are 186 and 4,875 listed as such.

Firearms held in collections would not be held on a Section 1 FAC - they either need a museum licence, a Section 5 FAC, or are actually exempt from licensing.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 21st February 2018 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:56 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
A bit awkward that it's the user that defines the weapon, but the following I think are the black powder ones...

Black Powder Pistol 21
Black Powder Revolver 35
Black Powder Rifle 16
Blunderbuss 7
Cannon 885 (that's a large number, so not sure, maybe some people declaring their muskets as such?)
Cap and Ball Pistol 4
Cap and Ball Revolver 17
Field Gun 10 (guessing actually cannon)
Musket 59
Musketoon 2
Muzzle Loading Pistol 188
Muzzle Loading Revolver 265
Muzzle Loading Rifle 17

So even with the large number of "cannon" that's, what, less than 1500?

Compare with just the ones declared as a Rifle:
Rifle 364517

Never mind the other big categories.
As an aside, there is a story that one naval vessel that was being bought as a museum ship (HMS Cavalier?) its guns were still in working order, so the donor was issued with a firearms certificate.
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:01 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You don't have to show any reason to possess a shotgun. Guns can be used in self defence, it is just not a good reason to get one purely for self defence. If you are in genuine need of such defence, the police will provide an armed guard, or certain people (PSNI officers and secret services) can have a gun.

Well, according to this, the police can deny you a shotgun certificate if they think you don't have a good reason to have one. Sounds like pretty much the same thing.
Quote:
A shotgun certificate won’t be given or renewed if the chief officer of police has a reason that you shouldn’t be allowed to have a shotgun under the Firearms Act. Or if they don’t think you have a good reason to have, buy or acquire a shotgun.
https://www.gov.uk/shotgun-and-firearm-certificates
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:03 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Air pistols and rifles don't need licensing unless they're exceptionally high-powered. There are 186 and 4,875 listed as such.

Firearms held in collections would not be held on a Section 1 FAC - they either need a museum licence, a Section 5 FAC, or are actually exempt from licensing.
Well help us out. What are these other weapons, then? The ban is quite explicit...handguns are banned, with the exception of these single shot muzzle loaders we've been discussing (500 pieces). What are the other 47,000 handguns ostensibly legally held outside the terms of the ban?
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:04 AM   #340
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Long barrelled pistols etc maybe?
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Old 21st February 2018, 10:54 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
When I go back to Glasgow I usually stay at the Holiday Inn at one end of Sauchiehall street (West Nile St) and take my 12 year old to meet friends at the Sichuan House (try the lamb with cummin) and walk back late and I feel far more secure than I would in central London.
Iain Banks "Espedair Street":
I was in Sauchiehall Street last Monday evening. I attended a lecture on the subject of carrion-eating insects, held in a bookshop.

I saw nothing untoward in the street on the way there and back. The footage of maggots that illustrated the lecture was much more disturbing than the street environment.
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Old 21st February 2018, 11:13 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
And it is a guess. It's also a good example of begging the question. We maintain that guns are an extreme rarity on the streets, then you assume the accuracy of the original contrary opinion (also a guess) and we are asked to prove our assertions by sharing experience of guns not being a rarity on our streets. Ever thought that people don't have experience of black market guns because of what everyone is telling you; black market guns are an extreme rarity?
I wouldn't bother, information that doesn't fit the narrative that gun control doesn't work won't be accepted. Remember, this split off started with the specific claim that my family member who has not been identified, could walk into a pub and buy a gun (for the record if this person walked into a pub and bought a coke it would be considered an achievement).
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Old 21st February 2018, 11:24 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Air pistols and rifles don't need licensing unless they're exceptionally high-powered. There are 186 and 4,875 listed as such.

Firearms held in collections would not be held on a Section 1 FAC - they either need a museum licence, a Section 5 FAC, or are actually exempt from licensing.
This is entirely wrong for some parts of the UK. You might want to brush up on your reading to update your knowledge.

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Old 21st February 2018, 11:31 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Not for a Shotgun Certificate. Not being either mental or a convicted criminal is enough, and having a secure gun cabinet is enough.
A Shotgun is not considered a Firearm, it has it's own classification.
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Old 21st February 2018, 11:36 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Possibly, though having met a few owners of such they are rather proud of their toys-that-go-boom, so they're likely (IMO) to be more detailed about their descriptions. I know I would.
Description on the FAC would depend on the individual police force issuing the FAC.
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Old 21st February 2018, 11:37 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well then I guess the majority of those are air pistols. The rest will be antiques in collections, plus those kept permanently at gun clubs.
Air pistols and compressed gas pistols need no permit or permission. You can walk in to a shop and buy one.
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Old 21st February 2018, 11:38 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well help us out. What are these other weapons, then? The ban is quite explicit...handguns are banned, with the exception of these single shot muzzle loaders we've been discussing (500 pieces). What are the other 47,000 handguns ostensibly legally held outside the terms of the ban?
Long barreled pistols, black powder revolvers and such.

there are a good number of 'Cowboy' clubs in the UK, the members tend to own a number of guns each. (They don't call themselves 'Cowboy Clubs' they are too serious for that.

Victorian military re-enactors are also numerous, they like to dress up in late victorian uniforms and parade at old military bases and forts, they own quit e a few..

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Old 21st February 2018, 11:39 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Air pistols and compressed gas pistols need no permit or permission. You can walk in to a shop and buy one.
This is entirely wrong for some parts of the UK.
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Old 21st February 2018, 11:44 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
This is entirely wrong for some parts of the UK. You might want to brush up on your reading to update your knowledge.
I can buy one at any time in the local country sports shop on the market place.

A replica of a Glock or Colt. They field strip like the real thing and the magazine holds a mini co2 cartridge andsteel ball ammo. Or a more traditional air pistol with lead pellets, or a pre-charge target pistol.
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Old 21st February 2018, 11:54 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well help us out. What are these other weapons, then? The ban is quite explicit...handguns are banned, with the exception of these single shot muzzle loaders we've been discussing (500 pieces). What are the other 47,000 handguns ostensibly legally held outside the terms of the ban?
Well, it's been repeatedly point out to you that that is not true. "Muzzle-loading" by definition includes cap-and-ball revolvers of the type I identified previously - it is absolutely not restricted to "single shot" pistols. In such revolvers, the powder and ball or bullet are inserted in the front of the cylinder - not down the actual barrel - and the percussion cap at the rear of the cylinder. This still counts as "muzzle-loading" in UK law. Here's an example of a UK company making Section 1 "modern" muzzle-loading .357 magnum revolvers.

The bans are actually on "small" cartridge pistols, with a "small" being defined for the purposes of the legislation as having a barrel length of less than 12-inches, or an overall length of less than 24-inches. This allows for barrels of 12-inches or more, or pistols with an overall length of at least 24-inches, through the use of a longer but sub-12-inch barrel and/or permanent extension rods to the front or rear. These can be semi-autos in .22 LR calibre, or revolvers in any calibre.

It worth bearing in mind that - as I noted previously - he 1996/97 legislation affected 57,000 FAC holders in the UK, who had 162,000 prohibited weapons - an average of 2.8 per holder. Pro rata for England & Wales that would be around 50,500 holders and 144,000 firearms. The Section 1 FOI list is also just England & Wales (even though the question asked for GB), so if there are least 48,557 handguns in the Section 1 list, that potentially equates to some 17,000 FAC holders, if they still average 2.8 weapons each.

In the six years following the 1996/97 legislation, the total of FACs on issue in England & Wales reduced from 141,900 to 117,700 - a drop of 24,200 in all. Even accounting for the fact that some holders will have had both prohibited handguns and other firearms, that's a massive difference compared to the 50,500 or so who had the prohibited handguns. The reality is that whilst a lot of pistol shooters did give up entirely, a significant minority simply switched to the type of "pistols" that were still legal, plus obviously there will also be some newcomers to discipline, as well. In that context, around 17,000 still shooting legal pistols seems fairly reasonable.
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Old 21st February 2018, 11:57 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
This is entirely wrong for some parts of the UK. You might want to brush up on your reading to update your knowledge.
It's "right" for 89% of the population, and in the context of the list under discussion.

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Old 21st February 2018, 11:58 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
A Shotgun is not considered a Firearm, it has it's own classification.
A shotgun is a firearm, it's just "licensed" differently.
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Old 21st February 2018, 12:08 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I can buy one at any time in the local country sports shop on the market place.

A replica of a Glock or Colt. They field strip like the real thing and the magazine holds a mini co2 cartridge andsteel ball ammo. Or a more traditional air pistol with lead pellets, or a pre-charge target pistol.
I have a modern Walther replica - although the CO2 cartridge is in the grip, the standard pellets go in a removable 8-shot revolving magazine. Obviously it never leaves the house these days.

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Old 21st February 2018, 12:14 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Air pistols and compressed gas pistols need no permit or permission. You can walk in to a shop and buy one.
The reason I mentioned them is that this isn't entirely true. The high powered versions do need a license.
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Old 21st February 2018, 12:25 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Air pistols and compressed gas pistols need no permit or permission. You can walk in to a shop and buy one.
My understanding is that this is only true up to a certain muzzle velocity?

(And that they have to be coloured in such a way they aren't too realistic)
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:04 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I wouldn't bother, information that doesn't fit the narrative that gun control doesn't work won't be accepted. Remember, this split off started with the specific claim that my family member who has not been identified, could walk into a pub and buy a gun (for the record if this person walked into a pub and bought a coke it would be considered an achievement).
Claims, furthermore, than seem to come from people who have never set foot in a UK pub in their lives.
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:07 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Claims, furthermore, than seem to come from people who have never set foot in a UK pub in their lives.
Oh yeah.
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:25 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
A shotgun is a firearm, it's just "licensed" differently.
Exactly For purposes of licensing it isn't a firearm although a capacity 3 or more cartridges makes it a Firearm.
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:27 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
The reason I mentioned them is that this isn't entirely true. The high powered versions do need a license.
They always have. above a certain power they need a FAC.

It is trivially easy to increase the power of a 'precharge' air weapon by a simple mod to the valve.
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Old 21st February 2018, 01:29 PM   #360
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Lots of legal air pistols

https://www.daileisure.co.uk/guns/air-pistols/

Legal long barreled firearm pistols. Magnum with a !2" barrel!

https://www.daileisure.co.uk/rifles-...reled-pistols/
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