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Tags atheists , Lawrence Krauss , sexual misconduct charges

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Old 27th February 2018, 10:25 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
See: the aforementioned Sargon of Akkad, Thunderfoot (although he eventually backed out of it), the Amazing Atheist, the foolish "anti-SJW" crap like elevatorgate and Gamergate, the embrace of violent racists/domestic abusers on many "skeptic forums" (including here regarding Ferguson, the murder of Trayvon Martin, and the overuse of the "thug" stereotype here).
Yeah, we do have a few too many violent racists and domestic abusers around here.
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Old 27th February 2018, 10:27 AM   #82
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I at least can see the (what I consider) absurd jump to racism/sexism/bigotry/nazi fetishism because that is so overused... but domestic abusers? huh?
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Old 27th February 2018, 10:29 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Now far too many people include folks like Milo whoever, Alex Jones, and Paul Joseph Watson in "skepticism".
Seriously, though, who thinks those guys are practicing skeptics?
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Old 27th February 2018, 10:32 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Seriously, though, who thinks those guys are practicing skeptics?
Nutjobs think that alex jones is a skeptic by the conspiracy theorist definition of skeptic (ie a conspiracy theorist) but I don't see the others. I think there's a very loose connection between sargon, thunderf00t, etc. with anti-SJW atheists/skeptics but that's about as close as you can get. For the last year or two there has been a "Skepticism (TM)" label that people apply to those they don't like. Kinda dumb
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Old 27th February 2018, 10:50 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yeah, we do have a few too many violent racists and domestic abusers around here.
I'm trying to connect the dots between "want to chat in my room over coffee" and Trayvon Martin. Unless we have evidence that Zimmerman was Elevator Guy I think it's just more of the usual well poisoning/identity politics-mongering that gets puked up here in lieu of a decent argument all too often.
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Old 27th February 2018, 01:31 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
I'm trying to connect the dots between "want to chat in my room over coffee" and Trayvon Martin. Unless we have evidence that Zimmerman was Elevator Guy I think it's just more of the usual well poisoning/identity politics-mongering that gets puked up here in lieu of a decent argument all too often.
The jumps, of course, are from "defending guys tailing and cornering women" to "sexual harassment" (although those two are the same), and from "openly espouses Reconstruction-era racial stereotypes" to "Espouses 1930s racial/religious stereotypes".

The former (minor) leap is the central focus here - which is why the guys that think that death/rape threats are the appropriate response to women in gaming, are often the same ones who rush to defend sexual harassment/assault regardless of how much evidence is compiled. That these same men are often the nazi fetishists that get invited to mainstream skeptic conferences (with Sargon being the obvious prototype here). Elevator guy is just some creep, and Zimmerman just a violent fool. It's the popular reactions among "skeptics" to both that I'm discussing - and for this thread, I'm focusing on how the first dovetails into the well-known record of Krauss.
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Old 27th February 2018, 02:03 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
That link reads like emotional pish, I can only assume the skep in skepchick doesn't stand for scepticism.
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Old 27th February 2018, 02:04 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
That link reads like emotional pish, I can only assume the skep in skepchick doesn't stand for scepticism.
If there are any errors you'd like to point out, go ahead.
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Old 27th February 2018, 02:06 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
If there are any errors you'd like to point out, go ahead.
p0lka was not embarrassed by Krauss's behavior, therefore the title is wrong....
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Old 27th February 2018, 02:29 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Hell, I don't think even our resident open racist has posted anything supporting violent racism.
Nor has our vengeful violence advocate posted anything supporting open racism.
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Old 27th February 2018, 02:36 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Nor has our vengeful violence advocate posted anything supporting open racism.
Good point. It's probably for the best that Mumbles has moved the goalposts away from his original claim.
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Old 27th February 2018, 02:40 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Good point. It's probably for the best that Mumbles has moved the goalposts away from his original claim.
Is this Krauss character some kinda racist too, or is this just the same hobby horse that gets trotted in far to many threads?
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Old 27th February 2018, 02:51 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
If there are any errors you'd like to point out, go ahead.
I was just commenting on the content of the link, not the OP.

Seriously, amongst other things, there's this big imaginary science fair thing in the middle of it that has nothing to do with reality, it's made up by the writer to create a sort of imaginary thing that didn't happen, just to enflame the audience.

I hate that, it's emotional pish.
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Old 27th February 2018, 03:09 PM   #94
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I'm not following the science fair analogy.
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Old 27th February 2018, 05:32 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm not following the science fair analogy.
I'm lost over here, too.
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Old 27th February 2018, 06:20 PM   #96
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Oh, it seems that the discussion that Sam Harris and Lawremce Krauss had planned to give was disrupted by this article. Krauss decided not to take the stage when the Buzzfeed article came out. I was interested to see if there would be some acknowledgment of the article. Apparently Harris talked about the #metoo movement in general.
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Old 27th February 2018, 06:25 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Oh, it seems that the discussion that Sam Harris and Lawremce Krauss had planned to give was disrupted by this article. Krauss decided not to take the stage when the Buzzfeed article came out. I was interested to see if there would be some acknowledgment of the article. Apparently Harris talked about the #metoo movement in general.
It wouldn't be a #metoo moment without deplatforming.
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Old 27th February 2018, 06:25 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The jumps, of course, are from "defending guys tailing and cornering women" to "sexual harassment" (although those two are the same), and from "openly espouses Reconstruction-era racial stereotypes" to "Espouses 1930s racial/religious stereotypes".

The former (minor) leap is the central focus here - which is why the guys that think that death/rape threats are the appropriate response to women in gaming, are often the same ones who rush to defend sexual harassment/assault regardless of how much evidence is compiled. That these same men are often the nazi fetishists that get invited to mainstream skeptic conferences (with Sargon being the obvious prototype here). Elevator guy is just some creep, and Zimmerman just a violent fool. It's the popular reactions among "skeptics" to both that I'm discussing - and for this thread, I'm focusing on how the first dovetails into the well-known record of Krauss.
I really think you are making a lot of tenuous connections here. You start at one end with Lawrence Krauss and you end up Kevin Baconing to Alex Jones and the Nazis. This is really shoddy stuff. By all means, we can assess Kraussís record and what the preponderance of evidence says about sexual harassment claims but you are poisoning the well when you imply that those who donít pick up the pitchforks are violent nazi fetishists.
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Old 27th February 2018, 06:26 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It wouldn't be a #metoo moment without deplatforming.
He wasnít deplatformed. According to Harris it was ďmutually agreedĒ that he wouldnít take to the stage.
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Old 27th February 2018, 06:33 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
He wasnít deplatformed. According to Harris it was ďmutually agreedĒ that he wouldnít take to the stage.
They came up with this plan on their own?

Good for them, I suppose.
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Old 27th February 2018, 06:36 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
They came up with this plan on their own?

Good for them, I suppose.
Oh wait no they didn't.

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Old 27th February 2018, 06:39 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
They came up with this plan on their own?

Good for them, I suppose.
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I donít understand what you mean.
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Old 27th February 2018, 07:00 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm not following the science fair analogy.
Then you didn't read the Skeptidiotchick link.
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Old 27th February 2018, 07:40 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I really think you are making a lot of tenuous connections here. You start at one end with Lawrence Krauss and you end up Kevin Baconing to Alex Jones and the Nazis. This is really shoddy stuff. By all means, we can assess Kraussís record and what the preponderance of evidence says about sexual harassment claims but you are poisoning the well when you imply that those who donít pick up the pitchforks are violent nazi fetishists.
I'm nominating this for that sentence.
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Old 27th February 2018, 08:22 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I really think you are making a lot of tenuous connections here. You start at one end with Lawrence Krauss and you end up Kevin Baconing to Alex Jones and the Nazis. This is really shoddy stuff. By all means, we can assess Kraussís record and what the preponderance of evidence says about sexual harassment claims but you are poisoning the well when you imply that those who donít pick up the pitchforks are violent nazi fetishists.
Nope. I started at one end with the folks howling about Watson, Anita Saarkesian, and so forth, and ended up at "handwaving sexual harrasment" in general. I also started with folks howling about how black people are "thugs" for being outdoors, and how antifa and (somehow) BLM are worse than white nationalists, and ended with people like Sargon of Akkad headlining at "skepticism" conferences.

Tolerate sexism? You'll end up with a number of sexists. Tolerate white supremacism? You'll end up with a number of white supremacists. Toss out evidence in favor of Youtubers that simply say whatever for views? You'll end up with clickbait Youtubers like Alex Jones and Paul Joseph Watson in your community.
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Old 27th February 2018, 08:25 PM   #106
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Last I checked "sexism" was the belief that one sex is superior to another. Who among us tolerates that?
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Old 27th February 2018, 09:20 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Nope. I started at one end with the folks howling about Watson, Anita Saarkesian, and so forth, and ended up at "handwaving sexual harrasment" in general. I also started with folks howling about how black people are "thugs" for being outdoors, and how antifa and (somehow) BLM are worse than white nationalists, and ended with people like Sargon of Akkad headlining at "skepticism" conferences.

Tolerate sexism? You'll end up with a number of sexists. Tolerate white supremacism? You'll end up with a number of white supremacists. Toss out evidence in favor of Youtubers that simply say whatever for views? You'll end up with clickbait Youtubers like Alex Jones and Paul Joseph Watson in your community.
Again, the picture you are painting of Skepticism does not resemble the one that I know and involves mixing a lot of different things together and calling them the same. Besides, this seems like a topic for another thread.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 27th February 2018, 09:45 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Again, the picture you are painting of Skepticism does not resemble the one that I know and involves mixing a lot of different things together and calling them the same. Besides, this seems like a topic for another thread.
Which is what I said over a page ago - except for the tolerance for harassment and rape/death threats among so-called "skeptics". They're tied together in that the people screaming about how they have to be able to hit on women anywhere are often the same folks playing footsie with the nazi-fetishists.

If you wish to argue that we shouldn't banish people over "he said - she said", I kinda agree. But in most of these cases it's "he said - she said, she said, she said, and these witnesses said, and here are a few findings from different institutions, and possibly screenshots and videos."
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Old 27th February 2018, 10:24 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Which is what I said over a page ago - except for the tolerance for harassment and rape/death threats among so-called "skeptics". They're tied together in that the people screaming about how they have to be able to hit on women anywhere are often the same folks playing footsie with the nazi-fetishists.

If you wish to argue that we shouldn't banish people over "he said - she said", I kinda agree. But in most of these cases it's "he said - she said, she said, she said, and these witnesses said, and here are a few findings from different institutions, and possibly screenshots and videos."
In the case of Krauss, I will wait to hear what he says.

Iím not interested in hearing anything from Alex Jones, Paul Watson, Milo or Sargon.

And I donít feel the need to make any more justifications than that.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 27th February 2018, 10:48 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
See: the aforementioned Sargon of Akkad, Thunderfoot (although he eventually backed out of it), the Amazing Atheist, the foolish "anti-SJW" crap like elevatorgate and Gamergate, the embrace of violent racists/domestic abusers on many "skeptic forums" (including here regarding Ferguson, the murder of Trayvon Martin, and the overuse of the "thug" stereotype here).
Mountains and molehills come to mind.

BTW, who the hell is Sargon of Akkad.

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
ETA: I think that's the last time I'll be giving obvious examples in this thread.
Only in your eyes.
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Old 28th February 2018, 12:51 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
In the case of Krauss, I will wait to hear what he says.

Iím not interested in hearing anything from Alex Jones, Paul Watson, Milo or Sargon.
Glad to hear that! And I wish outfits like Mythcon agreed. But I've watched "skeptics", as a movement, get involved in politics on the "we prefer the sexual harassers and racists" side, and then look surprised when, in this case, quite a few women decide they want nothing to do with it.
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Old 28th February 2018, 04:26 AM   #112
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Sam Harris and Matt Dillahunty gave some explanation about Lawrence Krauss's non-appearance at the scheduled talk in Pheonix.

As I said above, Harris explains that this was a mutual decision, not an act of deplatforming, on the basis that the allegations in Buzzfeed were so recent that Krauss would have had little time to offer an adequate response to the article without leaving it as a cloud over the event.

Harris and Dillahunty also give some of their own reactions to the #metoo movement to say that they think it is mostly a positive development and that finally some people are deservedly been shown up for what they are.

Yet they also point to some of the ways in which social media itself leads to a kind of mob mentality with certain instant judgments which could be unfair and also to a failure to separate extremely bad crimes from creepy behaviour and that there is a moral necessity to be able to make such distinctions.

The talk is cut off before Harris can properly return to the Buzzfeed article but from what he says it is clear he thinks it is something of a hit piece. He leaves open the possibility that there could be very serious, true allegations against Krauss, but points out, as I said above, that the writers have mixed in a lot of dirt that has little to do with the central accusations. Harris himself is attacked in the piece for some of his views, and I expect that he takes a dim view of the writers.

This leads to the point that if someone is going to write articles that they expect people to believe they shouldn't pad them out with additional, spurious claims as the Buzzfeed article does if only because it allows for a change of subject from the central claims.

Anyway, here is the video:

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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 28th February 2018, 07:03 AM   #113
d4m10n
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Harris sounds like he is withholding judgement until he hears from both sides.

Meanwhile, the (ongoing) deplatforming campaign moves forward . . .

https://twitter.com/michael_w_busch/...90129390473217

https://twitter.com/Mikethedochere/s...48093592350721

https://twitter.com/szvan/status/967423465648214016

https://twitter.com/Just_Us_Women/st...17361680547840

https://twitter.com/AmethystRayne84/...67257162571776

https://twitter.com/OtherSociology/s...08726280073217

I suppose it will probably come down to whom we find most credible.
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Last edited by d4m10n; 28th February 2018 at 07:06 AM.
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Old 28th February 2018, 07:11 AM   #114
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Gary Edwards chimes in on the buzzfeed article (and related older controversies mentioned in this thread)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYrS1zoY9ik
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Old 28th February 2018, 07:12 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Last I checked "sexism" was the belief that one sex is superior to another. Who among us tolerates that?
Sorry you didn't get the memo. Now, sexism means anything that inconveniences a woman, even a hypothetical one, and especially if the same thing doesn't inconvenience a man, even a hypothetical one.
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Old 28th February 2018, 07:30 AM   #116
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sorry you didn't get the memo. Now, sexism means anything that inconveniences a woman, even a hypothetical one, and especially if the same thing doesn't inconvenience a man, even a hypothetical one.
So, like, menses?
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Old 28th February 2018, 07:33 AM   #117
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Nature is terribly sexist, yes.
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Old 28th February 2018, 08:02 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Which is what I said over a page ago - except for the tolerance for harassment and rape/death threats among so-called "skeptics". They're tied together in that the people screaming about how they have to be able to hit on women anywhere are often the same folks playing footsie with the nazi-fetishists.

If you wish to argue that we shouldn't banish people over "he said - she said", I kinda agree. But in most of these cases it's "he said - she said, she said, she said, and these witnesses said, and here are a few findings from different institutions, and possibly screenshots and videos."

Reasoning like the above is a large part of why I find online discussions to be fairly pointless these days. If someone can, after all these years and countless times the issue has been hashed over, still convince themselves that people who didn't line up in lockstep behind Watson years ago were motivated by a belief that they were entitled to 'be able to hit on women anywhere', then there's less than zero chance of a nuanced discussion being had. Especially when they're able to start with such an unsound and unfounded premise and then easily add in a host of other sins because 'they're tied together'. That's actually the same sort of linking I heard conservatives doing a couple of decades ago about homosexuality. "What, a man wants to sleep with other men? Probably wants to rape little children and **** an animal or two as well. Bunch a deviated preverts!" . Or how atheists must really like to do drugs and murder people, because after all we've already rejected morality.

So naturally that type of 'guilty of one sin guilty of them all' mindset will hear a statement like 'we shouldn't deplatform people for no reason other than we disagree with them' as you REALLY saying you intend to get in a slap-fight with Milo over which one of you gets to carry the Nazi flag at this weekend's "let's go curb stomp a darkie" rally.

Now off to find some death/rape threats I can be okay with ...

<smh>
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Old 28th February 2018, 08:16 AM   #119
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Here's what Krauss said about Jeffrey Epstein, who was convict of soliciting sex from a 14 year old girl.

Quote:
Jeffrey has surrounded himself with beautiful women and young women but they’re not as young as the ones that were claimed. As a scientist I always judge things on empirical evidence and he always has women ages 19 to 23 around him, but I’ve never seen anything else, so as a scientist, my presumption is that whatever the problems were I would believe him over other people
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Old 28th February 2018, 08:18 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
Here's what Krauss said about Jeffrey Epstein, who was convict of soliciting sex from a 14 year old girl.
According to Krauss, there are no black swans....
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