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Old 4th March 2018, 11:37 AM   #201
zooterkin
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- No.
- I'll have to leave you behind and answer only those participants who are willing to be more specific. Though, I probably will respond to simple accusations or questions from you -- until you go back to telling me to look up something for myself.
- If I tried to look up whatever you tell me to, I wouldn't be able to answer anybody else.
More specific? I've never seen anyone more specific than JayUtah.

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Old 4th March 2018, 11:39 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
If it shares your sense of self, it should self identify as you. As others have pointed out, your definitions lack any kind of rigor and constantly change to try to prop up whatever point you are trying to make. Just as you waffle between accepting that the self is a process the brain does and a separate entity.

As for your anectdoe about hypnosis and past lives, you yourself admitted that its most likely made up stories, so why present it.

As for OBEs, remember where you left off the last time you brought up your most convincing case? I do.
jond,
- For now, I'll stick with .01 for P(~H). I'm willing to use .001 if that would help.
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Old 4th March 2018, 11:41 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I'll have to leave you behind and answer only those participants who are willing to be more specific.
I was specific earlier this week. And then your excuse was that you didn't feel like trying to keep up. Now you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. "Jay writes too much." "Jay won't write when I tell him to." "Jay calls me names in every post." (Still waiting for you to substantiate that accusation in the manner I proposed.) Your participation in this debate over your proof seems limited to a litany of lame and contradictory excuses for why you don't have to answer criticism.

Quote:
Though, I probably will respond to simple accusations or questions from you -- until you go back to telling me to look up something for myself.
Don't be so rude. I told you the answer to your question today was in a post I had written literally minutes previously. You literally just had to scroll up on that same page and read it. Apparently that's too much to ask.

So no, I will maintain the conclusion that you choose not to answer my posts because you know you cannot.

Quote:
If I tried to look up whatever you tell me to, I wouldn't be able to answer anybody else.
You demonstrate both the ability and the willingness to scour the thread when it suits you, and post lengthy anthologies duplicating much of the prior discussion when you think you've caught your critics in a contradiction. You've done it two or three times just today. Then suddenly that willingness evaporates when someone asks you to exercise the same diligence in a non-selfish way. If you refuse to read what your critics write, then you don't deserve their attention.
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Old 4th March 2018, 11:41 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
On December 27, you explicitly agreed that the materialist position is that it is a function of your brain.
jond,
- Right.
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Old 4th March 2018, 11:42 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Please explain how you think that I'm misusing Bayes Theorem.
By using it to compute probabilities instead of likelihoods.
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Old 4th March 2018, 11:51 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
More specific? I've never seen anyone more specific than JayUtah.

I fail to apprehend the logic in someone saying, "I refuse to read what you write, but you're obliged to write more."
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Old 4th March 2018, 12:02 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
You have previously stated that the soul itself has no specific characteristics, and that all its characteristics, all the things that make it "you", are produced by the brain.
Mojo,
- I'll need to re-think that. As a quick rethink, I halfway believe in reincarnation and if there is such a thing, I suspect that we do learn, and carry our learnings with us, as we progress through lifetimes...
- Though, I don't put a whole lot of stock in any particular explanation for the unlikelihood of my current existence -- I just think that -- scientifically speaking -- my current existence is like a total miracle.
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Old 4th March 2018, 12:07 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I suspect that we do learn, and carry our learnings with us, as we progress through lifetimes...
Can you tell us something you learned in a prior lifetime and tell us how you know that's when you learned it?

Quote:
Though, I don't put a whole lot of stock in any particular explanation for the unlikelihood of my current existence -- I just think that -- scientifically speaking -- my current existence is like a total miracle.
Nobody else puts any stock in your particular explanation either, including every statistician you've consulted. And most have been kind enough to explain in great detail why your particular explanation is mathematically and statistically incorrect, only to be rebuffed by you.

As you've been told several times, adding "scientifically speaking" to a sentence does not elevate it to the status of science. You've been told in excruciating detail by several different groups of people over several years exactly how and why your belief that your current existence is a miracle has no basis in science. Your response has been dismissive at best and rude at worst.
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Old 4th March 2018, 12:09 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- No.
- I'll have to leave you behind
How about leaving your dishonesty behind?

Quote:
and answer only those participants who are willing to be more specific.
Specifically, read the list of JayUtah's list of the fatal flaws to your argument and address them.

Quote:
Though, I probably will respond to simple accusations or questions from you -- until you go back to telling me to look up something for myself.
Try honesty for a change. You're able to go back and find those you think support you. Go find those that specifically answer your questions, as you've been told.

Quote:
- If I tried to look up whatever you tell me to, I wouldn't be able to answer anybody else.
You wouldn't have to. Try honesty for a change.
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Old 4th March 2018, 12:13 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
-- scientifically goofily speaking -- my current existence is like a total miracle.
FTFY
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Old 4th March 2018, 12:14 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Totally irrelevant. If you can say how many possibilities it includes, it isn't a complement.

You fail again.
Mojo,
- I realized that I had previously provided the wrong number of possibilities.
- Though, I don't understand why being able to provide the number of possibilities would obviate it being a complement.
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Old 4th March 2018, 12:17 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I don't understand why being able to provide the number of possibilities would obviate it being a complement.
It's not the number of possibilities that's the problem. It's that your last "possibility" is an indeterminate catch-all. That's just a different way of saying your list of possibilities remains incomplete. What Mojo is trying to help you understand is that you cannot cure the problems inherent to reasoning via the complement by trying to enumerate the possibilities. There will always be indeterminate possibilities in a set defined merely as what isn't something. This is why several groups of people -- including people you've specifically reached out to for expert commentary -- are telling you that your whole approach is wrong. Your whole approach is wrong, and this is just one of the many individual ways it's wholly wrong. You can't fix it by the minimal adjustments you're soliciting. Real statisticians don't reason through the complement the way you're doing. Instead they look at relative likelihoods. You aren't doing that. What you're actually using are probabilities, not likelihoods.

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Old 4th March 2018, 12:20 PM   #213
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I've been dealing with things in real life (not sure whether the immortal or mortal one). Last I checked, Jabba was going to get with another stats expert. Did that happen?
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Old 4th March 2018, 12:23 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by CriticalThanking View Post
I've been dealing with things in real life (not sure whether the immortal or mortal one). Last I checked, Jabba was going to get with another stats expert. Did that happen?
He says he reached out to someone at SUNY but hasn't heard back. He left us with the ominous suggestion that their silence was due to his having "told them too much about [his] idea." He hasn't answered requests for him to explain what he means by that.
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Old 4th March 2018, 12:56 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
jond,
- For now, I'll stick with .01 for P(~H). I'm willing to use .001 if that would help.
For your current existence under ~H, you must now multiply .01 (or .001) x P(B) because you still have to account for the fact that your brain exists, whether or not you have a soul. You have again now agreed that P(H) = P(B).
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Old 4th March 2018, 02:01 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Mojo,
- I'll need to re-think that. As a quick rethink, I halfway believe in reincarnation and if there is such a thing, I suspect that we do learn, and carry our learnings with us, as we progress through lifetimes...

But you have no evidence for this.

Quote:
- Though, I don't put a whole lot of stock in any particular explanation for the unlikelihood of my current existence -- I just think that -- scientifically speaking -- my current existence is like a total miracle.

...therefore you're immortal, huh?
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Old 4th March 2018, 02:04 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Jay,
- But how else could I refer to the ones I can't think of?
Maybe you should read the posts directed at you rather than look for snippets that you think support your conclusion.
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Old 4th March 2018, 02:06 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- No.
- I'll have to leave you behind and answer only those participants who are willing to be more specific.
You really never answer the specifics because you can't argue against it. You only answer the things you think are sufficiently vague that you can sidestep the larger issue. Your refusal to make an effort to deal with things that hurt your case when you make that effort to dig for stuff that you think supports your case is very dishonest.

Quote:
- If I tried to look up whatever you tell me to, I wouldn't be able to answer anybody else.
No one else wants you to do anything else, anyway. Do what Jay has asked you for months and address the fatal flaws in your arguments. You should be able to find that post.
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Old 4th March 2018, 02:10 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I suspect that we do learn, and carry our learnings with us, as we progress through lifetimes...
That would be called a memory, which you agree you don't have. You have no way to tell if you're the same you as in an earlier lifetime, or indeed if such a life occured.
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Old 4th March 2018, 03:35 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
True, but I don't see where any of his arguments actually require belief on his part. He's not trying to prove something about his god. He's trying to prove something about atheists and skeptics. It doesn't matter what ends up being right as long as skeptics are shown clearly to be wrong. Rebuttals that allege hypocrisy matter only if he has professed some specific belief and only if the fact of that belief (not the fact of what is believed) bears on his argument. It's theoretically possible to prove reincarnation is a better hypothesis without needing first to express a belief in it.
Not quite. Jabba will espouse any belief system if it supports his view. It is not about the belief system in itself, only about the idea that it might support the crank notion. Thus we end up with Jabba supporting RCC theology but also reincarnation. Both would claim the other is utterly wrong. Nevertheless, the aim is not to make cogent argument, but to arrive at a destination regardless how much one must express dishonesty on that same journey.

Now, being 49, I could drop from a heart attack tomorrow. Or anytime. Were I minded to seek any sort of after life (I am not) I would place my faith in one. Jabba seems to be placing his faith in all of them simultaneously.

I wonder what Jabba would do if it turned out that the Westboro Baptists were right? Or Jim Jones? Or Harold Camping (failure), or the pope, or not the pope, how about David Icke?

Bottom line, Jabba is not any kind of christian. Or Muslim. Or anything much beyond a personal made up pile of nonsense.
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Old 4th March 2018, 11:46 PM   #221
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Yep, it's all about the destination
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Old 5th March 2018, 03:48 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Mojo,
- I'll need to re-think that. As a quick rethink, I halfway believe in reincarnation
You only half-believe in something you essentially proved?
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Old 5th March 2018, 04:11 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You only half-believe in something you essentially proved?
Sounds perfectly reasonable assuming lim(0.5->1).

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Old 5th March 2018, 05:44 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You only half-believe in something you essentially proved?
- Reincarnation is only a fraction of the possibilities I suggested.
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Old 5th March 2018, 06:13 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Reincarnation is only a fraction of the possibilities I suggested.
And you managed to also prove that it was irrelevant to the issue of immortality. If you have no memory of past lives or any indication or evidence that those lives existed, then you are for all reasonable purposes a different "you" than you were in other lives. Ergo these "yous" no longer exist, and were not immortal, same as you.
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Old 5th March 2018, 06:27 AM   #226
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This is another odd fetish that Woo Slingers often seem to develop; an utter obsession with trying to prove things by reducing them to complete meaninglessness. Like the idea of just being able to use the word "reincarnation" means so much to Jabba he's completely removed any defining quality or characteristic to the concept and just applied it to... literally nothing.

If the person and the person they are reincarnated into share no physical or mental qualities, no memories, no continuity of consciousness or experience, have different names, ethnicities, genders, opinions, beliefs, locations then, even in wank wank philosophy word salad mental masturbation context, is being reincarnated? What thing, process, factor, quality, bloody anything actually links these two people?

What's the difference between a soul that literally does nothing and no soul at all?

Jabba's so in love with the idea of reincarnation that he'll admit it doesn't actually do anything in order to just keep mouthing the word.

This isn't even the Ship of Theseus. This is just claiming that two totally different ships that share no parts, don't have the same name, and are in no way connected or related for no reason have some continuity between them because... reasons.

It's like me arguing that the greatest Jazz album of all time is Idlarba Didarflarx's The Horse Race on the Seashore which doesn't exist but sounds exactly, down to the note, like Miles Davis' The Birth of the Cool.
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Old 5th March 2018, 07:12 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If the person and the person they are reincarnated into share no physical or mental qualities, no memories, no continuity of consciousness or experience, have different names, ethnicities, genders, opinions, beliefs, locations then, even in wank wank philosophy word salad mental masturbation context, is being reincarnated? What thing, process, factor, quality, bloody anything actually links these two people?

[snip]

This isn't even the Ship of Theseus. This is just claiming that two totally different ships that share no parts, don't have the same name, and are in no way connected or related for no reason have some continuity between them because... reasons.
...and by the same token, the same poster tells us that an exact copy of himself, which WOULD share all of the characteristics above, is not the same!
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Old 5th March 2018, 07:25 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...and by the same token, the same poster tells us that an exact copy of himself, which WOULD share all of the characteristics above, is not the same!
And that truly is weird.

Jabba is adamant that some magical exact duplicate of him, totally indistinguishable in any way from him, still wouldn't be him.

While the lesbian architect from Nairobi he's going to be reincarnated into in 2057 and the German factory worker with the club foot and lazy eye he was reincarnated from in 1842 both... are somehow.

I'd ask Jabba to explain this is some, any context of objective identity but A) he won't and B) I don't hate myself that much yet.
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Old 5th March 2018, 07:35 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What's the difference between a soul that literally does nothing and no soul at all?

This is exactly what I keep wondering. I would like Jabba to simply explain the difference between an immortal person and a mortal one. Seems like a reasonable thing to do when one starts a thread to prove immortality.

So far, I can't see any difference based on his explanations so far. Maybe I am missing something, but what qualities does an immortal person have that a mortal person doesn't?
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Old 5th March 2018, 07:36 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
More specific? I've never seen anyone more specific than JayUtah.

Zoo,
- Sure. Jay has probably given hundreds of specifics just in Chapter VIII. But he refuses to be specific about the specific he's referring back to.
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Old 5th March 2018, 07:38 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
But he refuses to be specific again about the specific he's referring back to and has already referred back to very specifically about a hundred times already.
FTFY. When you've ignored someone enough times, they tend to assume you'll just carry on not listening.

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Old 5th March 2018, 07:39 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'd ask Jabba to explain this is some, any context of objective identity but A) he won't and B) I don't hate myself that much yet.
Ah, but which self don't you hate that much? You could really stick it to that stuck-up 12th century Japanese civil servant that you used to be.

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Old 5th March 2018, 07:47 AM   #233
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So Jabba, let’s recap:
- you agree that in the materialist model, the self is a process generated by the brain.
- you agree that in order to get to immortality (or reincarnation) you need a soul in addition to your body.
- you agree that adding a soul does not change the likelihood of your body existing.
- this means that your competing hypotheses are No Soul (materialist model) and Soul (immortality/reincarnation).
- under which hypothesis is your current existence more likely?
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Old 5th March 2018, 07:53 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Sure. Jay has probably given hundreds of specifics just in Chapter VIII. But he refuses to be specific about the specific he's referring back to.
How's that gaslighting working for you, Jabba? Please, by all means keep falling all over yourself trying to tell people how unworthy I am of your attention.

If you post a question and I tell you that i posted the answer to it literally just a few minutes previously, how much more specific do you need that to be? You literally only had to scroll up the page to see it. But you refused to do even that. Instead you seem to expect to be coddled in some specific way that means your critics have to run around, constantly and repeatedly placing things at your feet they've said several times before, and which you've ignored several times before. None of your critics is obliged to indulge your wantonly selective attention. They've recognized it as your game for avoiding intellectual responsibility.

Your approach to the problem you're trying to solve is wholly wrong, from a statistical perspective and also from a logic perspective. Your critics have spend hours trying to explain to you exactly how you're wrong. In return they get only shifted blame and unsubstantiated accusations from you. Quit whining. You are not any sort of victim here. The evidence shows you simply can't hold your own in this discussion, or any similar discussion elsewhere, and so you're relying increasingly on rather ham-fisted social-engineering ploys to evade responsibility.
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Old 5th March 2018, 07:53 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Monza View Post
This is exactly what I keep wondering. I would like Jabba to simply explain the difference between an immortal person and a mortal one. Seems like a reasonable thing to do when one starts a thread to prove immortality.

So far, I can't see any difference based on his explanations so far. Maybe I am missing something, but what qualities does an immortal person have that a mortal person doesn't?
Best guess is Jabba is trying to set up a very bad, very clumsy attempt at the "Foot in the Door" fallacy.

This is something I first noticed when arguing with the God Botherers. They'll define "God" in looser and looser, vaguer and vaguer, more and more meaningless terms until you're basically left with nothing until they trick somebody, anybody, into agreeing that God might exist if he's totally inert and impotent...

... and then immediately go forward as if you've agree their specific, much more active version of God has now been given some credence. I saw a dozen variations of this over hundreds of arguments all functionally reducible to:

Steve: Do you believe in my exact New Reformed Presbelutherian Church of the Cross (2nd Schism) version of God?
Ted: No.
Steve: Do you believe in the Judeo-Christian God at all?
Ted: No
Steve: Do you believe in God at all?
Ted: No
Steve: Do you believe in a watchmaker/first cause/prime mover God like force?
Ted: No
Steve: Do you believe in some over personified force in the universe?
Ted: No.
Steve: *Some variation on the 'God is Love' or 'God is a feeling' or 'God is subjective.*
Ted: Errrrr... I guess maybe. You don't really seem to be saying anything of...
Steve: Ah so you agree with me on some level! *Continues forward as if Ted has agreed to his original version of God...*

This sot of fits into Jabba's dishonest, farming for quotes, argumentative style. He thinks if he removes any actual meaning from the word "Reincarnation" somebody will agree to it, and he can pretend they agreed to his obvious implied meaning.

Again he's still talking a soul. He's openly admitted that. The difference between the two identical "Jabbas" is that one wouldn't have the magical, non-replicatable soul that God put in it while the other would. That's what all the "It wouldn't be the saaaaaame" and "But it wouldn't be meeeeeee" and "Looking out a different set of eyes" nonsense has always been about.

Jabba, the 19th century German with the club foot, and the 21st century Nairobi architect would all have the same soul.

For now Jabba is introducing that concept with zero other qualifying factors, that is anything that actually makes it functionally different than no soul at all, in vein attempts of getting somebody to make a surface level agreement with this meaningless, context-less version of a "soul" being possible so he can start bootstrapping stuff into the concept.
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Old 5th March 2018, 07:54 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by CriticalThanking View Post
I've been dealing with things in real life (not sure whether the immortal or mortal one). Last I checked, Jabba was going to get with another stats expert. Did that happen?
CT,
- I've emailed 2 different SUNY Professors. It's probably been a week since the last email and two since the first. I probably said too much about what I wanted to do...
- I tried to go back to one of the stat forums I had been on, but couldn't get my connection restored...
- I'll try them again, and go to a different forum if that doesn't work.
- I still believe that Bayesian inference virtually proves that OOFLam is wrong.
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Old 5th March 2018, 07:59 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Reincarnation is only a fraction of the possibilities I suggested.
Reincarnation is only a fraction of the possibilities that aren't materialism. You don't know what fraction of things that aren't materialism result in immortality. This is the same problem you had with the Shroud debate and the same problem you had with the circumstantial evidence debate. All your arguments in this forum follow the same flawed pattern, which is merely a pseudo-statistical formulation of the false dilemma popular in most fringe argumentation. You can't prove what you assert, so you pretend to disprove a competing thing and insist that your assertion must therefore hold by default.

While you speak loudly of likelihoods, it's clear you don't know what they are or what power they have. What you are dealing with is probability, because only with probability can you say, "I've computed this one thing, so the probability of everything else is easily computed by subtracting it from 1." That is not a property of likelihoods. That is how you're misusing Bayes. That is the reason your specific formula does not work.

Several times I've explained the a more proper way of comparing likelihoods is to take their ratio. I've explained in detail several times how that's done. So has jt512, who just recently gave a more proper formula. You simply refuse to adopt that method, and I suspect it's because you simply cannot admit you have made a serious error. But you have, and it has been explained to you. Whining about how that explanation doesn't suit your fancy or conform to some mode of entitlement you expect doesn't fix your proof.
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Old 5th March 2018, 08:01 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I probably said too much about what I wanted to do...
It's the second time you've alluded to "telling them too much," so it's the second time asking what exactly you mean by this. Why would "telling them too much" about your statistics problem be an issue?

Quote:
I still believe that Bayesian inference virtually proves that OOFLam is wrong.
Math doesn't care what you believe. And we've shown you at great length, with great patience, why your math doesn't work.
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Old 5th March 2018, 08:08 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And that truly is weird.

Jabba is adamant that some magical exact duplicate of him, totally indistinguishable in any way from him, still wouldn't be him.

While the lesbian architect from Nairobi he's going to be reincarnated into in 2057 and the German factory worker with the club foot and lazy eye he was reincarnated from in 1842 both... are somehow.
It's clear that the only thing remaining between the two is the "soul", but that this soul carries over zero features from one host to the next, so much so that the sense of self itself is different. Sounds like a totally different person to me, in addition to making souls entirely superfluous.
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Old 5th March 2018, 08:08 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It's the second time you've alluded to "telling them too much," so it's the second time asking what exactly you mean by this. Why would "telling them too much" about your statistics problem be an issue?
I smell a swing back to "Scientists are dishonest" territory.

Dollars to donuts "Too much" is he let it slip that he was trying to prove an absurdity. He probably meant to try and slide the question in under their radar by not directly referencing the Woo he is peddling but let some slip through and they are (rightfully) ignoring him because these are professionals who don't have time for that sort of nonsense.

Jabba will probably spin this into it being about them being "biased" against his insane ramblings.

And again this fits in with a guy who's openly admitted his goal is to trick people into just slipping up and saying anything that sounds like they agree with him.
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