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Old 2nd March 2018, 04:00 AM   #1
Arcade22
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Will South Africa become the next Zimbabwe?

Quote:
South Africa‘s parliament has*passed a motion to seize land from white farmers without paying them compensation.

Passed by an overwhelming*majority of 241 votes to*83 votes against, the proposal*to*amend*Section*25 of the*constitution*would*allow expropriation of land without any financial recompense.**

It was put*forward*by the*radical*left Economic Freedom Fighters (EFF) party, whose leader*Julius*Malema told*the country's parliament: “We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the*criminals who stole our land.”*
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a8234461.html
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Old 2nd March 2018, 05:40 AM   #2
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Expropriation without compensation: It’s not just about land

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It is important to understand the reality of Section 25. It refers not to land alone, but to all property. It acknowledges that redistributive measures will feature strongly in state policy and allows for this, for both a ‘public purpose’ and ‘in the public interest’.
Quote:
Over the past decade in particular, government has sought on several occasions to expand its powers to intrude onto the property rights of individuals and businesses alike – most notably, these have included the various Expropriation Bills. None of these was limited to land. Indeed, government policy in general has been chasing a larger and more assertive role for the state in pushing its transformation agenda – in fields ranging from intellectual property to mining.
Quote:
There is nothing to suggest that any move to open the way for expropriation without compensation will be limited to land, and still less to agricultural landholdings. Rather, we believe that it will be designed to provide the state with vastly increased latitude to seize property in a wide variety of contexts.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 05:41 AM   #3
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Mandela weeps
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Old 2nd March 2018, 05:47 AM   #4
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A British Legal Expert’s Opinion On ‘Expropriation Of Land Without Compensation’

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Response written by Mark Philip Malcolm Horn – London Barrister.
No one does business with a thief, and no one extends credit to a thief.
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You can not have land expropriation without compensation. It is illegal in international law. It is contrary to a dozen treaties that South Africa has signed and ratified. As such, it is a principle that is also enshrined in South African domestic law. You can not change the Constitution, therefore, to make it legal – Treaty law is superior law, it always applies.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 06:06 AM   #5
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We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land.

Sounds like a good idea!
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Old 2nd March 2018, 06:22 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
This assumes ANC will continue to respect the rule of law. If it turns into a bad copy of Zimbabwe's ZANU-PF, what's written in the law books won't make much difference.

I'm slightly optimistic in that Jacob Zuma didn't succeed in what I believe was his plan to become another "Big Man" of Africa.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 06:40 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
This assumes ANC will continue to respect the rule of law. If it turns into a bad copy of Zimbabwe's ZANU-PF, what's written in the law books won't make much difference.
Today I'm pessimistic. I'm pretty sure the "Expropriation Of Land Without Compensation" will happen, but take some time. This will be bad.

It could be worse.
Whether it will extend to other types of property like intellectual or business or mineral property etc., I just don't know.
In the constitution, at the moment, there is no distinction drawn between different types of property, so it depends on how section 25 is changed and whether land is defined as separate and different to other property.
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Last edited by Cheetah; 2nd March 2018 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 06:55 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Sounds like a good idea!
You know that's code for 'kick out all the whites', right?
Not trying to deny South Africa's troubled history or saying these sentiments come out of nowhere, but do you really believe this is a good idea?
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Old 2nd March 2018, 12:51 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
This assumes ANC will continue to respect the rule of law. If it turns into a bad copy of Zimbabwe's ZANU-PF, what's written in the law books won't make much difference.

I'm slightly optimistic in that Jacob Zuma didn't succeed in what I believe was his plan to become another "Big Man" of Africa.
Particulary since, to use some Marvel Universe references, most Big Men in Africa resemble T'CHalla in Wakanda much less then they do Victor Von Doom in Latavaria....
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Old 2nd March 2018, 12:52 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
Today I'm pessimistic. I'm pretty sure the "Expropriation Of Land Without Compensation" will happen, but take some time. This will be bad.

It could be worse.
Whether it will extend to other types of property like intellectual or business or mineral property etc., I just don't know.
In the constitution, at the moment, there is no distinction drawn between different types of property, so it depends on how section 25 is changed and whether land is defined as separate and different to other property.
Third Boer War on it's way....
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Old 2nd March 2018, 01:27 PM   #11
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So much for truth and reconciliation.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 04:13 PM   #12
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I suppose I could research a bit, but how did the white farmers obtain their land in the first place? American style; steal it from the natives then give it to their heirs?

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Old 2nd March 2018, 05:06 PM   #13
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Who happened to pinch it from the 'natives' that were there before, etc, etc.

Problem is, the pinchers and pinchees are all long dead.

AS there was no such thing as private ownership of land BITD (a tribal chief was kind of the boss of it) it becomes somewhat complicated.

Although quite simple if seen as a land grab for cronies.

Either way, it's likely to be messy.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 05:24 PM   #14
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I guess New Zealand and Australia (particularly Western Australia) had better brace themselves or another influx of refugee white farmers.

I, for one, welcome them so long as they leave their racist and bigoted viewpoints behind in the Republic.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 06:25 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Mandela weeps
I have more admiration for Mandela than any other politician during my lifetime.

I wish that we could have a leader as half as courageous and intelligent as Nelson Mandela.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 06:26 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I guess New Zealand and Australia (particularly Western Australia) had better brace themselves or another influx of refugee white farmers.

I, for one, welcome them so long as they leave their racist and bigoted viewpoints behind in the Republic.
Give them an updated version of the dictation test.

For those that are not familiar with Australian history this involves writing out a paragraph or two of what an immigration officer dictated to you. The immigration officer had the choice of any European language. Sometimes to keep certain people out obscure languages had to be chosen.
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Old 3rd March 2018, 02:19 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Will South Africa become the next Zimbabwe?
What do you mean "will"?

I understand that compared to Johannesburg, New York is a benign city composed exclusively of law abiding citizens who would never even think of jaywalking - let alone stealing, raping or killing people.
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Old 3rd March 2018, 07:20 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I have more admiration for Mandela than any other politician during my lifetime.

I wish that we could have a leader as half as courageous and intelligent as Nelson Mandela.
I agree. Nelson Mandela did exactly the right thing when he took power, this was the whole point of the Truth and Reconciliation commission, to punish the guilty and give the country the best possible start.

Back when ZANU-PF did what it did I went on record as stating that the only Black people who would benefit would be the ones closest to Mugabe and that the 'poor blacks' the progressives were cheering on would not benefit at all.

Sadly, I was right in that case, the Left however just switched from cheering on the appropriation to condemning Mugabe for what he did afterwards, which of course he totally ignored.

It looks as if the modern Left is going to repeat the same mistake...

https://thegrapevine.theroot.com/cry...olo-1823331790
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Old 3rd March 2018, 09:39 AM   #19
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White fear.
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Old 3rd March 2018, 10:25 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I suppose I could research a bit, but how did the white farmers obtain their land in the first place? American style; steal it from the natives then give it to their heirs?

Ranb
How far back in the past would you like to Correct Injustice? A few centuries, a few millenia?
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Old 3rd March 2018, 12:18 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I suppose I could research a bit, but how did the white farmers obtain their land in the first place? American style; steal it from the natives then give it to their heirs?

Ranb
Define native.

Most "black" South Africans arrived in the region sometime before white settlers and "stole" land from the Khoisan/bushmen tribes.

Surely therefore any property owned by any non-khoisan or bushmen tribes should also be subject to expropriation in the interests of justice?
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Old 3rd March 2018, 02:32 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Problem is, the pinchers and pinchees are all long dead.

That is not really a problem!
Their heirs, however, are still alive, and for some (obvious) reason they insist that the latest pinching is the only one that's fair and just, which means that any redistribution is consequently an abomination.
It is impossible to both 'restore the dignity of our people' and respect private property.

Quote:
We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd March 2018, 02:35 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
You know that's code for 'kick out all the whites', right?
Not trying to deny South Africa's troubled history or saying these sentiments come out of nowhere, but do you really believe this is a good idea?
To restore the dignity of black South Africans without compensating the people who stole their land? Yes, definitely!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd March 2018, 02:51 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That is not really a problem!
Their heirs, however, are still alive, and for some (obvious) reason they insist that the latest pinching is the only one that's fair and just, which means that any redistribution is consequently an abomination.
It is impossible to both 'restore the dignity of our people' and respect private property.
Except large swathes of land will have been divided, bought, sold, etc.

The current owners are likely to have no ties at all with the original 'pinchers', whether that was from the original 'indigenous' population, or the later settlers (which as has been mentioned, were of all races and hues.)

As pre Dutch settlement, there were no land registers, or any other form of official ownership, how should the original/rightful/whatever owners be determined?
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Old 3rd March 2018, 08:46 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
To restore the dignity of black South Africans without compensating the people who stole their land? Yes, definitely!
Sounds like something Stalin and Mao would say......


Hoping this is just somebody of college age posting outrageous crap.
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Old 3rd March 2018, 08:54 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
How far back in the past would you like to Correct Injustice? A few centuries, a few millenia?
According to the BBC, the first predators evolved circa 540 million years ago. Figure we start (end?) there.

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141...first-predator


Note: the first villain is the "abnormal shrimp". Hopefully his descendants have a lot of cash.
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Old 3rd March 2018, 09:04 PM   #27
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If this gets implemented I'm not really seeing a realistic way that it ends well. And the fact that South Africa's leaders have the cautionary tale of Zimbabwe to learn from makes it even more insane.
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Old 3rd March 2018, 09:09 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
According to the BBC, the first predators evolved circa 540 million years ago. Figure we start (end?) there.

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141...first-predator


Note: the first villain is the "abnormal shrimp". Hopefully his descendants have a lot of cash.
More likely the cut off will be 6000 years ago, according to the Nation of Islam that is when 'White Devils' were created by Yakub....
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Old 3rd March 2018, 09:20 PM   #29
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I also love the "All Afrikaners are racist" vibe I am getting.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

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Old 3rd March 2018, 09:27 PM   #30
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So, I take it all the lefties who think this is a good idea will be turning their land over to the first Native American who knocks on the door? Good way to get rid of all that guilt.
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Old 3rd March 2018, 10:01 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
So, I take it all the lefties who think this is a good idea will be turning their land over to the first Native American who knocks on the door? Good way to get rid of all that guilt.
Who exactly are you addressing here?
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Old 4th March 2018, 05:27 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Except large swathes of land will have been divided, bought, sold, etc.

The current owners are likely to have no ties at all with the original 'pinchers', whether that was from the original 'indigenous' population, or the later settlers (which as has been mentioned, were of all races and hues.)

As pre Dutch settlement, there were no land registers, or any other form of official ownership, how should the original/rightful/whatever owners be determined?

If you buy a flatscreen TV, I don't think that you're allowed to keep it if the guy you bought it from stole it from somebody else.
It's funny how the fans of private property seem to think that it's totally legit when we're talking about land ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 4th March 2018, 05:30 AM   #33
dann
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
So, I take it all the lefties who think this is a good idea will be turning their land over to the first Native American who knocks on the door? Good way to get rid of all that guilt.

And how exactly does your straw man correspond to this?
Quote:
We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 4th March 2018 at 05:57 AM.
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Old 4th March 2018, 07:10 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
If you buy a flatscreen TV, I don't think that you're allowed to keep it if the guy you bought it from stole it from somebody else.
It's funny how the fans of private property seem to think that it's totally legit when we're talking about land ...
So how do you decide who the original owner was (bearing in mind no records) and, in Africa at least, various tribes had been warring with various other tribes for donkey's years.

By your somewhat weird logic, all land, everywhere, should be returned to persons unknown.

Do you have a practical solution? Or just hand it over to anyone who looks a shade darker than the current owner?

The SA government has already acquired lots of land. They just haven't distributed it very well. Or at all really. They seem to allow leasehold, which makes it difficult for the leaseholder to obtain finance. They have given some away to worthy causes, if you call cronies worthy causes.

Have a read.

https://www.economist.com/news/middl...ng-land-reform

'For all its fiery rhetoric, the ANC government has shown remarkably little vigour in using the laws it already has. Its allocation for buying land for redistribution has slumped to less than 0.1% of the national budget. And it is sitting on as many as 4,000 farms that it has bought but not yet handed over to black owners.

The government’s failures do not stop there. Many of the farms that have been handed over have since failed because the new owners do not have the skills needed to run large commercial farms. As much as 70% of the estimated 8m hectares of land transferred by the state since the end of apartheid is now fallow.
Instead of fixing its shortcomings, the government is exacerbating them. In recent years it has stopped transferring ownership of land to black farmers because it frets they may sell it to whites. Instead it now leases the land to black tenants. Without assets to borrow against, these new farmers find it difficult to get capital.'
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Old 4th March 2018, 08:55 AM   #35
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Land audit reports:

SA's land audit makes case for land tax

The report, dated November 2017, was commissioned by the department of rural development and land reform.

Some bits...

Quote:
The report used sources such as the deeds office, municipalities and Stats SA, in what it describes as a very arduous data-gathering exercise. Its numbers are current up to 2015.
...
The land audit report does not deal specifically with agricultural land, but rather analyses the country’s entire surface area.
...
Black South Africans may constitute 79% of the population but, as individuals, they only directly own 1.2% of the country’s rural land and 7% of formally registered property in towns and cities.
...
Meanwhile, white South Africans, who constitute 9% of the country’s population, directly own 23.6% of the country’s rural land and 11.4% of land in towns and cities.
...
Only 33% of land in South Africa is owned directly by private individuals. Companies, trusts, the state, traditional authorities, churches and community organisations own the rest. The state’s land audit did not establish the racial ownership composition of 67% of land in the country.
Then there is the AgriSA Land Audit:

AgriSA_Land-Audit_November-2017.pdf

Who owns SA’s land?

Quote:
In three of the most fertile provinces - Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and Limpopo - more than 50% of agricultural potential is in black hands.
...
In KwaZulu-Natal, 45.4% of the agricultural land, in terms of surface area, is owned by black people. This land represents 73.5% of the agricultural potential of the province.
...
White farmers’ ownership of agricultural ground declined from 85.1% in 1994 (82.5 million hectares) to 73.3% in December 2016, and altogether 5 million hectares of agricultural ground was bought by black people in this period, as well as 1.7 million hectares for purposes other than agriculture. In the same period, government purchased and redistributed only 2.1 million hectares of agricultural ground.
...
In addition, provincial governments and municipalities bought and redistributed about 600 000 hectares of land
...
In the 23-year period examined by the audit, R90.3bn has been spent on land that is now owned by black people. Of this, government bought 2.8 million hectares, for which it paid R20.5bn. Large areas of this land are today underutilised or fallow.

A large portion of the 4 million hectares of land that the government said it redistributed, is in the former homelands. The true figure is closer to 3.5 million hectares.
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Old 4th March 2018, 09:56 AM   #36
dann
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
So how do you decide who the original owner was (bearing in mind no records) and, in Africa at least, various tribes had been warring with various other tribes for donkey's years.

That is at the same time a very good and a very stupid question: On the one hand, you don't! And on the other hand, what the people who come up with this argument could have learned from it is that private ownership is always unfair, in particular when it excludes people from the means of production. What they want to prove instead is that only the latest owner is the legitimate one ... for some reason ...

Quote:
By your somewhat weird logic, all land, everywhere, should be returned to persons unknown.

No, not by my "weird logic," but by your weird strawman logic!


Quote:
Do you have a practical solution? Or just hand it over to anyone who looks a shade darker than the current owner?

And the strawmen just keep coming ...

Quote:
The SA government has already acquired lots of land. They just haven't distributed it very well. Or at all really. They seem to allow leasehold, which makes it difficult for the leaseholder to obtain finance. They have given some away to worthy causes, if you call cronies worthy causes.

Have a read.

https://www.economist.com/news/middl...ng-land-reform

'For all its fiery rhetoric, the ANC government has shown remarkably little vigour in using the laws it already has. Its allocation for buying land for redistribution has slumped to less than 0.1% of the national budget. And it is sitting on as many as 4,000 farms that it has bought but not yet handed over to black owners.

The government’s failures do not stop there. Many of the farms that have been handed over have since failed because the new owners do not have the skills needed to run large commercial farms. As much as 70% of the estimated 8m hectares of land transferred by the state since the end of apartheid is now fallow.
Instead of fixing its shortcomings, the government is exacerbating them. In recent years it has stopped transferring ownership of land to black farmers because it frets they may sell it to whites. Instead it now leases the land to black tenants. Without assets to borrow against, these new farmers find it difficult to get capital.'

Yes, the "SA government has already acquired lots of land." And how did it acquire it?!
By "buying land", "farms that it has bought." And that's really not the way to do it since it doesn't have the money to do so: "has slumped to less than 0.1% of the national budget."
The SA government actually seems to hope to be able to buy the land that European colonialists got for free, which is a pretty lousy deal, which they appear to be realizing now, albeit none too soon.

Statesmen of diverse skin colors choose a new people (GegenStandpunkt)
Die Republik Südafrika - Von den ‚homelands‘ der Apartheid zur zivilen Parallelgesellschaft gleichberechtigter Schwarzer (GegenStandpunkt)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 4th March 2018 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 4th March 2018, 10:10 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Who exactly are you addressing here?
I'm going to quote myself to answer your question:

"...all the lefties who think this is a good idea..."

"This" being the black ANC Marxists confiscating the land of the white farmers without compensation.

"Lefties" are Democrats/progressives/Communists/socialists.
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Old 4th March 2018, 10:22 AM   #38
dann
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How were the black farmers compensated when the white settlers took their land?!
The Mass Suicide of the Xhosa - A Study in Collective Self-Deception by Steve Kowit (Skeptic Magazine)
Xhosaernes masseselvmord – et studie i kollektivt selvbedrag (Dansk Skeptica)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 4th March 2018, 11:51 AM   #39
fagin
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That is at the same time a very good and a very stupid question: On the one hand, you don't! And on the other hand, what the people who come up with this argument could have learned from it is that private ownership is always unfair, in particular when it excludes people from the means of production. What they want to prove instead is that only the latest owner is the legitimate one ... for some reason ...




snip...
It's been tried. And failed. Repeatedly.
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Old 4th March 2018, 12:52 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
So, I take it all the lefties who think this is a good idea will be turning their land over to the first Native American who knocks on the door? Good way to get rid of all that guilt.
Why stop there? All the people in England of German Descent shoud move out and give the land back to the Welsh (who are pretty much the direct heirs of the original Celtic British)...
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