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Old 4th March 2018, 12:59 PM   #41
dudalb
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
It's been tried. And failed. Repeatedly.
I knew it was only a matter of time before the poster you are referring to begun mouthing classic Marxist Rhetoric.

The system where there is no private ownership of land or industires but it is owned by "the People"...which always really means "The Government" has been tried time and time agsin...and has miserably failed..time and time again.
And notice how governments never really give the land they seized back to "the people" but instead go the "Collective Farms/Factory in the Fields" route which leads to disaster...I give you the Soviet Union and Mao's China as examples.
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Old 4th March 2018, 01:15 PM   #42
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we did it after 1918. I mean the Baltics etc. All the German and Russian etc nobility (I struggle to find the right word - they had properties and owned the peasants on it till as late as 1861 in some regions) were confiscated the land and left with the manour building with some hectares of land.
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Old 4th March 2018, 01:21 PM   #43
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uh, and the land was given to those who had fought for independence. some of it remained with the state and was sold. My great grandfather paid for his 27 hectares.

I guess those German feudals did not have any Internet fora where to complain.
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Old 4th March 2018, 02:02 PM   #44
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There are plenty of cases in history where people have been stripped of land, and it redistributed one way or another.

Again, two problems. Who has a right to it, and the current people on the land are not nobility, they are, for the most part, productive farmers.
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Old 4th March 2018, 02:18 PM   #45
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I don't want to come across as callous here, ignoring the victims of a very unjust system. I was brought up in SA in SA between the 60s until I left in the 00s, for family reasons.

I saw firsthand what apartheid did to people. I was an early member if the end conscription campaign (the defence force, in addition to blasting people in Angola, SWA and Mozambique, was being used to suppress South Africans in the townships). I avoided national service for years, even leaving the country for a while when things got a bit hot (the options were army or jail basically). I had friends who went even further. One was sentenced to death for planning to blow **** up (he later became a cabinet minister in the 'new' SA.)

I shed a tear when I saw Mandela walk out of jail, joined millions of others in the first proper, free election, and like many, was optimistic about the future of SA.

There was so much hope, and so many possibilities.

There still is.

But there is the wrong way to do things, and the past decade or so has been pretty disastrous.

This latest move won't help anyone.
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Old 4th March 2018, 11:37 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
I don't want to come across as callous here, ignoring the victims of a very unjust system. I was brought up in SA in SA between the 60s until I left in the 00s, for family reasons.

I saw firsthand what apartheid did to people. I was an early member if the end conscription campaign (the defence force, in addition to blasting people in Angola, SWA and Mozambique, was being used to suppress South Africans in the townships). I avoided national service for years, even leaving the country for a while when things got a bit hot (the options were army or jail basically). I had friends who went even further. One was sentenced to death for planning to blow **** up (he later became a cabinet minister in the 'new' SA.)

I shed a tear when I saw Mandela walk out of jail, joined millions of others in the first proper, free election, and like many, was optimistic about the future of SA.

There was so much hope, and so many possibilities.

There still is.

But there is the wrong way to do things, and the past decade or so has been pretty disastrous.

This latest move won't help anyone.
That doesn’t sound callous at all
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Old 5th March 2018, 08:11 AM   #47
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Regardless of the facts on the ground, there is literally nothing that gets the far right more excited than black on white violence. For some reason, the far right are desperate to suffer oppression.
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Old 5th March 2018, 08:29 AM   #48
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You assume all farmers are far right? many probably are, but times have actually changed a bit.

Although that seems slightly off topic.
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Old 5th March 2018, 08:52 AM   #49
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No, not the farmers, more the right wing hacks.
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Old 5th March 2018, 09:42 AM   #50
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It's easy to talk about the murder of South African white farmers from a distance. It's something that is practically never discussed in the mainstream media. Commercial farming in Zimbabwe has practically gone under Mugabe and his cronies. The UK government is in for a heavy jolt when European influence ends in Africa.

There is a sobering account about the matter of murders in South Africa at this website:

http://south-africa-the-real-issues....x#.Wp1xmUx2suI
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Old 5th March 2018, 10:08 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
No, not the farmers, more the right wing hacks.
Do you have examples of these right wing hacks desperate to suffer oppression?
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Old 5th March 2018, 10:09 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
It's easy to talk about the murder of South African white farmers from a distance. It's something that is practically never discussed in the mainstream media. Commercial farming in Zimbabwe has practically gone under Mugabe and his cronies. The UK government is in for a heavy jolt when European influence ends in Africa.

There is a sobering account about the matter of murders in South Africa at this website:

http://south-africa-the-real-issues....x#.Wp1xmUx2suI
This thread isn't about farm murders, or jolts to the UK government.

You could start your own thread.
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Old 5th March 2018, 10:41 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
It's been tried. And failed. Repeatedly.

Yes, I know. Private ownership always fails, but people never learn ...
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Old 5th March 2018, 10:48 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
So, I take it all the lefties who think this is a good idea will be turning their land over to the first Native American who knocks on the door? Good way to get rid of all that guilt.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Why stop there? All the people in England of German Descent shoud move out and give the land back to the Welsh (who are pretty much the direct heirs of the original Celtic British)...

At least the strawman producers agree ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 5th March 2018, 03:55 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, I know. Private ownership always fails, but people never learn ...
is it even possible to produce even more stupid and wrong assertion then this?
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Old 5th March 2018, 05:13 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That is not really a problem!
Their heirs, however, are still alive, and for some (obvious) reason they insist that the latest pinching is the only one that's fair and just, which means that any redistribution is consequently an abomination.
It is impossible to both 'restore the dignity of our people' and respect private property.
Originally Posted by dann View Post
To restore the dignity of black South Africans without compensating the people who stole their land? Yes, definitely!
I don't see how this plan restores dignity to anyone. Indeed, it seems to be pretty much the most undignified way to go about solving the problem.
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Old 5th March 2018, 05:15 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
is it even possible to produce even more stupid and wrong assertion then this?
Maybe, but we're already dangerously close to "not even wrong" territory.
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Old 5th March 2018, 05:35 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
is it even possible to produce even more stupid and wrong assertion then this?
Everytime I think "This is it. No way you can get more stupid then this" someone finds a way to prove me wrong......
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Old 6th March 2018, 12:35 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Maybe, but we're already dangerously close to "not even wrong" territory.
More like over shot it by parsecs.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Everytime I think "This is it. No way you can get more stupid then this" someone finds a way to prove me wrong......
Right. But this one has almost black hole level of density of wrongness.
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Old 6th March 2018, 12:49 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I'm going to quote myself to answer your question:

"...all the lefties who think this is a good idea..."

"This" being the black ANC Marxists confiscating the land of the white farmers without compensation.

"Lefties" are Democrats/progressives/Communists/socialists.
Thats a quite a variety of species you’ve caught in that rather wide net you cast.
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Old 6th March 2018, 03:36 AM   #61
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It's no good being a sentimental softhead about all this. There needs to be government by the rule of law in South Africa.
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Old 6th March 2018, 07:42 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
It's no good being a sentimental softhead about all this. There needs to be government by the rule of law in South Africa.
This isn't a problem of sentimentality. It's a problem of misrule through bad laws.
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Old 6th March 2018, 07:48 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
To restore the dignity of black South Africans without compensating the people who stole their land? Yes, definitely!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that the people who stole their land are dead.
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Old 6th March 2018, 07:50 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That is at the same time a very good and a very stupid question: On the one hand, you don't! And on the other hand, what the people who come up with this argument could have learned from it is that private ownership is always unfair, in particular when it excludes people from the means of production. What they want to prove instead is that only the latest owner is the legitimate one ... for some reason ...
Sounds like you don't have an actual solution or even a solid grasp of the problem you say exists.
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Old 6th March 2018, 11:26 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
It's no good being a sentimental softhead about all this. There needs to be government by the rule of law in South Africa.
Ah, yes the favorite line of would be dictators.
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Old 6th March 2018, 11:29 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sounds like you don't have an actual solution or even a solid grasp of the problem you say exists.
Oh, he has a solution...problem is everytime it has been tried it has had disasterous results.

His attitude toward white farmers in South Africa is a little bit too much like those of Stalin toward the "kulaks" for my taste.
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Old 6th March 2018, 11:30 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Thats a quite a variety of species you’ve caught in that rather wide net you cast.
He left out the RINOs ("Republicans In Name Only") though.
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Old 6th March 2018, 04:10 PM   #68
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Land redistribution sounds so, well, 19th Century. What percentage of South African GDP is agriculture? Money, these days, is in the service sector.
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Old 6th March 2018, 04:32 PM   #69
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Old 7th March 2018, 12:35 AM   #70
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[anecdote]
Many years ago I briefly worked in Pretoria at Landbank. One of the stated aims of Landbank at the time was to provide loans to small scale black farmers to allow them to buy tracts of land for them to farm. Ignoring the wisdom of moving from commercial to subsistence farming, the aims of the scheme seemed noble.

I was involved with the data migration from their old systems to their new systems and part of my remit was to migrate the loan data. Instead of a large number of small loans, there were a comparatively small number of large loans being granted. Reportedly these were going to "friends of the government" and were being used to buy golf courses, wine farms and BMW X5s

I was therefore not surprised to find that billion(s?) of rand had been misappropriated
[/anecdote]

Julius Malema has made a career out of being vehemently anti-white. The prospect of him being able to institute policies to seize land is something that worries me and IMO has a high risk of leading to large amounts of land being appropriated by cronies and/or becoming commercially unproductive, mirroring what happened in Zimbabwe.
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Old 7th March 2018, 02:53 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
"Lefties" are Democrats/progressives/Communists/socialists.


I see you're not a fan of subtle distinctions..?
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Old 7th March 2018, 05:07 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't see how this plan restores dignity to anyone. Indeed, it seems to be pretty much the most undignified way to go about solving the problem.

Yes, I bet the dignified way to solve the problem would be for black Africans to buy back the land that was stolen from and then tilled by their ancestors, the enslaved indigenous population.
It always is ...
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Old 7th March 2018, 05:09 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that the people who stole their land are dead.

Yes, they are. Their heirs, however, are living and breathing.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th March 2018, 05:12 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, I bet the dignified way to solve the problem would be for black Africans to buy back the land that was stolen from and then tilled by their ancestors, the enslaved indigenous population.
It always is ...

If we assume that the above is reasonable*, then how would you intend to deal with the myriad of consequences this brings. Not least of which is that you've now turned over all the fertile land to people who don't know how to farm efficiently in the post Haber age.


Gong back to one of my ongoing bugbears, this isn't 'left', it's lunacy.






*I don't think it is for a host of reasons.
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Old 7th March 2018, 05:23 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, they are. Their heirs, however, are living and breathing.
So how do you ensure that descendants of original owners get it and not some random imposter?
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Old 7th March 2018, 05:55 AM   #76
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Disposessing people based on race is OK if you claim it has to do with dignity?
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Old 7th March 2018, 06:17 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, they are. Their heirs, however, are living and breathing.
I think you're abusing the word "heir" quite a bit, here. The point is that the people on those lands did not steal it.
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Old 7th March 2018, 06:39 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Disposessing people based on race is OK if you claim it has to do with dignity?
Collective punishment by race is A-OK when it’s done by people we agree with! What could go wrong?
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Old 7th March 2018, 09:50 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, I bet the dignified way to solve the problem would be for black Africans to buy back the land that was stolen from and then tilled by their ancestors, the enslaved indigenous population.
It always is ...
I don't know about "dignified" but if you think that doing a Mugabe is going to produce a different result than the one in Zimbabwe then that is the definition of insanity.
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Old 7th March 2018, 10:02 AM   #80
theprestige
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, I bet the dignified way to solve the problem would be for black Africans to buy back the land that was stolen from and then tilled by their ancestors, the enslaved indigenous population.
It always is ...
Maybe there is no dignified way to do it. Maybe the path to dignity follows a different route entirely. Maybe "dignity" is functionally meaningless in this context, and is just an appeal to emotion, in the hopes that you will overlook a corrupt and incompetent policy. Maybe "restoring dignity" is a red herring, and distracts from other, real problems.
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