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Old 7th March 2018, 08:46 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, they are. Their heirs, however, are living and breathing.
So?
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:49 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Oh, he has a solution...problem is everytime it has been tried it has had disasterous results.

His attitude toward white farmers in South Africa is a little bit too much like those of Stalin toward the "kulaks" for my taste.
Let's all go to Kolja's house and drag his family out, beat him to death and rape his wife.

Kolja has been oppressing us. You can tell because he owns a cow and his children wear shoes.
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Old 8th March 2018, 03:03 AM   #83
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I think there are some layers of complexity to this beyond the injustice to the current farmers and the possible compensation of land loss to people who arrived in the cape 200 years after the white South Africans:

Investment climate: who the hell will sink money into a country that doesn't guaranty property rights. that's the fast road to Venezuela.
Food security: they are not making Teddy Bears or novelty T-shirts. This is FOOD production.
Loss of competence: Competent farmers split, so does the knowledge of farming.
Mortgages: I'm guessing those farmers don't actually own their companies and land. What will happen to those loans, and by extension, what will happen to the banks?
Pension funds: are SA's pension funds exposed to those mortgages in any way.
Tourism: depending on how the evictions are handled. But if we get video of mobs showing up at farms and physically kicking people out of their homes, this might be some very bad PR. On top of the current sustained campaign of torture and murder.

I can see the need for land distribution, but this looks like a perfect storm that could reduce SA's standing, stability and economy by a LOT.

Better would have been to buy the land, set up agricultural schools and give the current farmers a 10-year job as interim managers and educators.

Also, land can't be that expensive. What state can't afford to by 40% of it's own farmland? Or develop undeveloped land it already owns.
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Old 8th March 2018, 03:13 AM   #84
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In other news:

Georgia (the country) is inviting the South African farmers to come and farm there. They are expected to greatly improve the sector with their experience and knowledge and thus draw in more investment for the agricultural sector.
https://jam-news.net/?p=46927

(I removed what I posted about SA's plans to turn on the money printing press, the source was low-quality)
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Old 8th March 2018, 03:39 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Also, land can't be that expensive. What state can't afford to by 40% of it's own farmland? Or develop undeveloped land it already owns.
Good, productive land may be very expensive indeed, especially if there is already installed infrastructure for irrigation, drainage and so forth. If there's also an investment in terms of perennial crops (vines, fruit trees and whatnot) then the cost may be even greater.

The "problem" with the government buying up land and redistributing it is that there's a significant risk that the new farmers may end up with the worst land (the land that the current owners are willing to sell) and/or the government overpays for it. Undeveloped land in a country like South Africa which already has a well established commercial farming industry is IMO likely to be pretty poor land. I'm not knowledgeable about South Africa but I don't get the impression that there are millions of hectares of potentially productive land just sitting there.

Even if the land could be magically acquired in a way that all parties are happy, I'm still very sceptical of the wisdom of the entire programme. If it does what Julius Malema claims he wants it to do - put land in the hands of local subsistence farmers - then it's going to impact badly on the SA agriculture industry. If it does what I expect it to do - transfer vast tracts of land into the ownership of cronies - then IMO that will be even worse news for SA agriculture and for the individuals currently employed in it.
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:45 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think you're abusing the word "heir" quite a bit, here. The point is that the people on those lands did not steal it.
So inheriting it from those who did is OK gives them more right as landowners than those who inherited nothing because it was stolen from their ancestors?
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:47 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Let's all go to Kolja's house and drag his family out, beat him to death and rape his wife.

Yes, as we all know, that's what's being suggested!
Is that really the best strawman you could come up with?!
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:51 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
So how do you ensure that descendants of original owners get it and not some random imposter?

So that's your problem that you see now? How to redistribute land in a fair and just way?
You've actually come to terms with the notion that land confiscated from the landgrabbers or their heirs shouldn't rightfully belong to them?
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:54 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Maybe there is no dignified way to do it. Maybe the path to dignity follows a different route entirely. Maybe "dignity" is functionally meaningless in this context, and is just an appeal to emotion, in the hopes that you will overlook a corrupt and incompetent policy. Maybe "restoring dignity" is a red herring, and distracts from other, real problems.

The real problems? Such as the fact that the majority of South Africa's population are living in poverty, excluded from the means of production? Yes, I can follow you on that one.
After all, they can't all become hosts of The Daily Show ...
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:55 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
So?

So are the heirs of the people the land was stolen from ... and not too well ...
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:59 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I think there are some layers of complexity to this beyond the injustice to the current farmers and the possible compensation of land loss to people who arrived in the cape 200 years after the white South Africans:

Yes, for instance the injustice to the current landless masses, the descendants of the people who were there before the white South Africans. That they don't have anything is not the kind of injustice that might be relevant to consider ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th March 2018, 05:11 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So inheriting it from those who did is OK gives them more right as landowners than those who inherited nothing because it was stolen from their ancestors?
Why do you assume all farmers inherited land?

Originally Posted by dann View Post
So that's your problem that you see now? How to redistribute land in a fair and just way?
You've actually come to terms with the notion that land confiscated from the landgrabbers or their heirs shouldn't rightfully belong to them?
Heirs. You keep using that word. Who originally grabbed the land from the indigenous population? (Hint - the indigenous population wasn't what you seem to think it was.)

Originally Posted by dann View Post
The real problems? Such as the fact that the majority of South Africa's population are living in poverty, excluded from the means of production? Yes, I can follow you on that one.
After all, they can't all become hosts of The Daily Show ...
No one is 'excluded from the means of production'. But poverty and a rubbish education system don't help. Giving someone a subsistence farm won't help, neither will giving a lovely wine farm to a crony. Most people want jobs. Decimating the economy further won't help anyone.

Stupid irrelevant comment about Trevor Noah....

Originally Posted by dann View Post
So are the heirs of the people the land was stolen from ... and not too well ...
You keep using that word. When are you planning on giving your property back to the neanderthals?
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Old 8th March 2018, 05:19 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, for instance the injustice to the current landless masses, the descendants of the people who were there before the white South Africans. That they don't have anything is not the kind of injustice that might be relevant to consider ...
It's not quite as simple as you seem to think. By 'before' do you mean the Khoisan?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_South_Africa
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Old 8th March 2018, 05:20 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So inheriting it from those who did is OK gives them more right as landowners than those who inherited nothing because it was stolen from their ancestors?
Strawman.

How about you address what I actually posted?
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Old 8th March 2018, 05:22 AM   #95
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Your biggest problem seems to be identifying people by colour.

Paler people have been born and raised in Africa for centuries. They are Africans.

ETA replying to dann.
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Old 8th March 2018, 05:34 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, for instance the injustice to the current landless masses, the descendants of the people who were there before the white South Africans. That they don't have anything is not the kind of injustice that might be relevant to consider ...
Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:04 AM   #97
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No, but most of you seem to think that one wrong is OK as long as it's the right one. And nobody seems to be concerned with righting the one wrong since that would wrong those who benefit from the latest wrong.
So why don't you come up with at solution to that one?!
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:04 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, as we all know, that's what's being suggested!
Is that really the best strawman you could come up with?!
My strawman is the then head-of-state singing 'kill the Boer' in front of an adoring crowd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHLTKZ05zM4

And elected politician Malema doing the same:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOaLIIxxQlQ

There are horrible attacks on farmers every week. And they involve murders, mutilation, rapes and drawn-out torture sessions.

There are those that claim this is the normal crime in SA, and there is no connection between politicians calling for attacks on a minority, and that minority then being violently attacked. But I think that's like claiming there was no connection between Nazi rhetoric and Kristallnacht.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:06 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, but most of you seem to think that one wrong is OK as long as it's the right one. And nobody seems to be concerned with righting the one wrong since that would wrong those who benefit from the latest wrong.
So why don't you come up with at solution to that one?!
To quote my own post #83

Quote:
I can see the need for land distribution, but this looks like a perfect storm that could reduce SA's standing, stability and economy by a LOT.

Better would have been to buy the land, set up agricultural schools and give the current farmers a 10-year job as interim managers and educators.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:07 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Your biggest problem seems to be identifying people by colour.

Paler people have been born and raised in Africa for centuries. They are Africans.

ETA replying to dann.

And why do you think that my problem "seems to be identifying people by color"?!
You seem to be very well aware that land was grabbed by European colonialists, which is the point here, so you immediately start thinking race!
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:12 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Better would have been to buy the land, set up agricultural schools and give the current farmers a 10-year job as interim managers and educators.

Yes, that is your solution: Those who have inherited and benefitted the land from those grabbed it should be recompensed by having the state reward them!
So let the SA state buy the land with the money that it doesn't have. The money will then be worthless, but at least they can't claim that it was stolen from them - same way the land was stolen from the indigenous population.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:13 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, but most of you seem to think that one wrong is OK as long as it's the right one.
More strawmen.

Quote:
And nobody seems to be concerned with righting the one wrong since that would wrong those who benefit from the latest wrong.
Your solution is another injustice. Objecting to your stupid solution doesn't mean we think the wrong was right. You know this. You're just pissed at the situation and you're not thinking. Stop lashing out at us just because we disagree with you.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:18 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
And why do you think that my problem "seems to be identifying people by color"?!
You seem to be very well aware that land was grabbed by European colonialists, which is the point here, so you immediately start thinking race!
Me identifying by colour? Really?

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, for instance the injustice to the current landless masses, the descendants of the people who were there before the white South Africans. That they don't have anything is not the kind of injustice that might be relevant to consider ...
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:22 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, that is your solution: Those who have inherited and benefitted the land from those grabbed it should be recompensed by having the state reward them!
So let the SA state buy the land with the money that it doesn't have. The money will then be worthless, but at least they can't claim that it was stolen from them - same way the land was stolen from the indigenous population.
.....and all of this is being done to what end ?

The indigenous population are unlikely to benefit an any meaningful way on the grounds that the majority of those who are likely to benefit are not indigenous.

Those currently in possession of the land (and other assets - upthread non-land related commercial enterprises were also mentioned as targets for redistribution) will certainly lose out, whether they inherited it from forbears who seized if from the original occupants or whether they bought it last week.

The South African economy doesn't seem to be in a position to gain as commercial farms are instead turned into subsistence farms and flourishing businesses are taken from their current owners.

I'm not entirely sure whether the landless are in much of a position to gain unless they have, or are provided with, the skills and wherewithal to farm the land productively.

Indeed, the only ones who seem to be in a position to gain are the politicians who are promoting the idea and cronies who may actually end up with most of the assets - and IMO there's a significant overlap between the two.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:28 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
And why do you think that my problem "seems to be identifying people by color"?!
You seem to be very well aware that land was grabbed by European colonialists, which is the point here, so you immediately start thinking race!
Yeah, but before that the land was stolen by Africans from Africans.

So, are you going to give the land back to the Africans that the Europeans stole the land from? Or are you going to give the land back to to the Africans that those Africans stole it from? - I'm willing to bet that the whole process was repeated at least once before that.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:29 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, that is your solution: Those who have inherited and benefitted the land from those grabbed it should be recompensed by having the state reward them!
So let the SA state buy the land with the money that it doesn't have. The money will then be worthless, but at least they can't claim that it was stolen from them - same way the land was stolen from the indigenous population.
My wife's family fled Berlin before the Red Army arrived. Some family is now living in the house her great-grandfather built. My wife's family was never compensated.

The house still stands, we drove by it when we were in Berlin some years ago.

Should we demand it back? Should the family now inhabiting it be compensated for the loss of their home? It was illegally confiscated by the DDR, a puppet government of a colonising power.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:33 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yeah, but before that the land was stolen by Africans from Africans.

So, are you going to give the land back to the Africans that the Europeans stole the land from? Or are you going to give the land back to to the Africans that those Africans stole it from? - I'm willing to bet that the whole process was repeated at least once before that.
Let's interbreed until we're all mocha colored and it's impossible to tell whose ancestors stole what from whom.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:36 AM   #108
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This man has a point ^^^^^
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:38 AM   #109
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Furthermore, do we expect the French to give back the former Royal palaces to the descendants of the aristocrats from whom they were stolen?
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:38 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Let's interbreed until we're all mocha colored and it's impossible to tell whose ancestors stole what from whom.
I'm willing to do my part! (But my wife won't let me).
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:42 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I'm willing to do my part! (But my wife won't let me).


To be fair, I'm guessing you'd be less than enthusiastic about things if you popped home one lunchtime to find an enormous African Chief stood in your kitchen while your wife espoused your interbreeding philosophy...
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:46 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
My wife's family fled Berlin before the Red Army arrived. Some family is now living in the house her great-grandfather built. My wife's family was never compensated.

The house still stands, we drove by it when we were in Berlin some years ago.

Should we demand it back? Should the family now inhabiting it be compensated for the loss of their home? It was illegally confiscated by the DDR, a puppet government of a colonising power.
You should talk to a specialist lawyer about this. You might be due some compensation.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:47 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
To be fair, I'm guessing you'd be less than enthusiastic about things if you popped home one lunchtime to find an enormous African Chief stood in your kitchen while your wife espoused your interbreeding philosophy...
Good point.

But somehow this is not the scenario I had in mind, which involved a small harem of African and Asian chicks.
I already have several white kids. I'm sure my wife would see sense in balancing things out a bit.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:48 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
.....and all of this is being done to what end ?

The indigenous population are unlikely to benefit an any meaningful way on the grounds that the majority of those who are likely to benefit are not indigenous.
Well, maybe it's just principles. As I've learned recently, principles don't need to benefit anybody or have any sort of reasoning behind them.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:48 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Good point.

But somehow this is not the scenario I had in mind, which involved a small harem of African and Asian chicks.
I already have several white kids. I'm sure my wife would see sense in balancing things out a bit.
I don't see how the African Chief doesn't help with the whole balancing things out thing...

Sorry, I'll stop now
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:59 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
You should talk to a specialist lawyer about this. You might be due some compensation.
I think the family looked into it and there was some rule that if you fled the city before the Red Army reached a certain geographical area (city limits?), you lost your right to compensation. (not sure if DDR rule or after unification)

My wife's granddad had a strong hunch that the Soviet soldiers might not be in a very sunny mood, and possibly looking for some sexual release to deal with all that close-combat stress. So he and his wife and daughters skipped town a bit too early. Their train got straifed, so it can't have been that early though.

Sidenote: my Jewish side of the family did get compensation for lost property (without us ever seeking compensation).

We donated it to the Hadassah hospital in Israel, which makes a point of treating patients regardless of ethnic, religious or political background.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadassah_Medical_Center

Quote:
n 2005, Hadassah was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in acknowledgment of its equal treatment of all patients, regardless of ethnic and religious differences, and efforts to build bridges to peace.[12][13]
Edited to add: my MOTHER donated the money. I wanted to spend it on cocaine and hookers. Damn you mom!
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:08 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Let's interbreed until we're all mocha colored and it's impossible to tell whose ancestors stole what from whom.
That's actually probably the best solution.
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:08 AM   #118
Eddie Dane
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I don't see how the African Chief doesn't help with the whole balancing things out thing...

Sorry, I'll stop now
As a man, I'm much more efficient in spreading my genes.
My wife: 9 months.
Me: 15 seconds

You can't argue with those numbers.

I'll stop too. This is going straight to AAH, again.
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:17 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I think the family looked into it and there was some rule that if you fled the city before the Red Army reached a certain geographical area (city limits?), you lost your right to compensation. (not sure if DDR rule or after unification)
That can't be right. You should really look into that. The law has changed since the reunification and may still be changing.
If they actually sold it at the time or some such. That would be tough luck, AFAIk. After all, the current value at the time was nothing much but it still was the market value.

Quote:
My wife's granddad had a strong hunch that the Soviet soldiers might not be in a very sunny mood, and possibly looking for some sexual release to deal with all that close-combat stress. So he and his wife and daughters skipped town a bit too early. Their train got straifed, so it can't have been that early though.
Heh. Yeah, I know those stories from my Dad. Gotta cover under the train axes, between the wheels. It's safest there.

Quote:
Sidenote: my Jewish side of the family did get compensation for lost property (without us ever seeking compensation).

We donated it to the Hadassah hospital in Israel, which makes a point of treating patients regardless of ethnic, religious or political background.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadassah_Medical_Center

Edited to add: my MOTHER donated the money. I wanted to spend it on cocaine and hookers. Damn you mom!
I figure there is some sentiment, that if you still had some money after the Nazis and after the war, you kinda had it coming.
Jewish Germans, they were just betrayed. Innocent victoms.
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:17 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's actually probably the best solution.
Would never work. Natural human bigotry would just organize itself along other lines.

There's people groups all over the world who have figured out how to be violent chauvenists without having to depend on major variations in skin color. Serbs and Croats. Hutus and Tutsis. Irish and English. Saxons and Normans. Japanese and Koreans. The in group always knows their own.
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