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Old 8th March 2018, 08:27 AM   #121
Belz...
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Would never work. Natural human bigotry would just organize itself along other lines.
What does that have to do with anything? The point is that the question of white vs black would vanish and so would the question of land ownership. I didn't say it would solve all problems including polio and world poverty.
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:29 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
That can't be right. You should really look into that. The law has changed since the reunification and may still be changing.
If they actually sold it at the time or some such. That would be tough luck, AFAIk. After all, the current value at the time was nothing much but it still was the market value.


Heh. Yeah, I know those stories from my Dad. Gotta cover under the train axes, between the wheels. It's safest there.


I figure there is some sentiment, that if you still had some money after the Nazis and after the war, you kinda had it coming.
Jewish Germans, they were just betrayed. Innocent victoms.
Thanks, I'll ask my wife if she's interested in pursuing this. I understood they looked into it and decided it wasn't possible/worth it.

As for the larger point of dispossessing people to 'make right' past wrongs. It is just wrong. We hope a happy family lives there now. I might go back and photograph the place for the family album.
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:40 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Me identifying by colour? Really?

Yes, really!

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Yes, for instance the injustice to the current landless masses, the descendants of the people who were there before the white South Africans. That they don't have anything is not the kind of injustice that might be relevant to consider ...

So it would make you happy if I called them 'descendants of European colonialists' instead? And pretended that grabbing land from the .... 'indigenous'?! ... population had nothing whatsoever to do with racism?
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:47 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So that's your problem that you see now? How to redistribute land in a fair and just way?
You've actually come to terms with the notion that land confiscated from the landgrabbers or their heirs shouldn't rightfully belong to them?
No redistribution! Good luck with that.

There is nothing fair or just about it. Just further injustice and further land grab for yet another newcomers.

And we have seen in my country how idiocies like that work. Very badly...
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:49 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, really!




So it would make you happy if I called them 'descendants of European colonialists' instead? And pretended that grabbing land from the .... 'indigenous'?! ... population had nothing whatsoever to do with racism?

I still want to know why you think it's a good idea to take the land from one bunch of thieves* to another bunch of thieves*.

(*descendants of)
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Old 8th March 2018, 09:07 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, really!




So it would make you happy if I called them 'descendants of European colonialists' instead? And pretended that grabbing land from the .... 'indigenous'?! ... population had nothing whatsoever to do with racism?

As opposed to descendants of African colonialists?

And it had nothing to do with racism (I doubt there was even such a word back then) and everything to do with might and power. The same as every other invasion/landgrab/call it what you will, since time immemorial.

Just ask the Mongol hoards/Romans/Greeks/Zulus etc etc.
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Old 8th March 2018, 09:18 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What does that have to do with anything? The point is that the question of white vs black would vanish and so would the question of land ownership. I didn't say it would solve all problems including polio and world poverty.
I'm saying it wouldn't even solve the problem it purports to solve. I'm saying it's not really a question of white vs black, it's a question of in-groups and out-groups. Get rid of skin color, and people will find some other bigoted excuse to fight over land. Because it's not really the skin color that's the problem. It's just a really convenient way, in some contexts, to express the underlying natural human bigotry. Take away skin color, and people would behave about the same.

The Serbs and the Croats, for example: No major differences in skin color, and yet they still manage to carry on a centuries-long feud over land theft and other grievances, culminating in civil war, mass murder, etc.

Or take Rwanda for another example: No major differences in skin color there. The majority of Rwandans are comfortably somewhere on the "mocha" spectrum. And yet pow! Half the country still gets chopped in the face by the other half for being different.

Take skin color away, and people will still find ways to make chauvenistic distinctions between "us" and "them", and use them as an excuse to act against "them".
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Old 8th March 2018, 09:38 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Take skin color away, and people will still find ways to make chauvenistic distinctions between "us" and "them", and use them as an excuse to act against "them".
In a way I agree with that. It has been said that West Indian black people in the UK have racial problems with black Somali people in the UK, though you would not expect that to happen. There are white people who say that black people are natural law breakers, and are different, and that Pakistani people, and even Afghans, are dishonest and involved in human trafficking and drug dealing. There ae black people who are anti-white. Arabs are not welcome in many European countries. It's racial problems.
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Old 8th March 2018, 10:12 AM   #129
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And in breaking news, Henri discovers that people can be dicks...
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Old 8th March 2018, 10:14 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm saying it wouldn't even solve the problem it purports to solve. I'm saying it's not really a question of white vs black, it's a question of in-groups and out-groups. Get rid of skin color, and people will find some other bigoted excuse to fight over land. Because it's not really the skin color that's the problem. It's just a really convenient way, in some contexts, to express the underlying natural human bigotry. Take away skin color, and people would behave about the same.

The Serbs and the Croats, for example: No major differences in skin color, and yet they still manage to carry on a centuries-long feud over land theft and other grievances, culminating in civil war, mass murder, etc.

Or take Rwanda for another example: No major differences in skin color there. The majority of Rwandans are comfortably somewhere on the "mocha" spectrum. And yet pow! Half the country still gets chopped in the face by the other half for being different.

Take skin color away, and people will still find ways to make chauvenistic distinctions between "us" and "them", and use them as an excuse to act against "them".
Ok, good point.
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Old 8th March 2018, 10:41 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
In a way I agree with that.
In what way do you agree with that? Everything you say in this post amounts to disagreement:

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It has been said that West Indian black people in the UK have racial problems with black Somali people in the UK, though you would not expect that to happen.
Of course I would expect that to happen. You're disagreeing with my central point.

Quote:
There are white people who say that black people are natural law breakers, and are different, and that Pakistani people, and even Afghans, are dishonest and involved in human trafficking and drug dealing. There ae black people who are anti-white. Arabs are not welcome in many European countries. It's racial problems.
Again, you're disagreeing with me. And also totally missing the context.
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Old 8th March 2018, 01:48 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Let's interbreed until we're all mocha colored and it's impossible to tell whose ancestors stole what from whom.
We already have common ancestors who lived in what is now South Africa, and it doesn’t seem to be doing any good.

Since we all had ancestors who lived in that area if you go back far enough but some no longer do, those must be the people who were dispossessed. The people there are the ultimate recipients of that stoles land. I therefor suggest that all the land in South Africa be given to people not currently living there. Surely this is the only fair solution.
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Old 8th March 2018, 09:54 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So are the heirs of the people the land was stolen from ... and not too well ...
But did land ownership in pre-1600s South Africa exist in the same fashion as modern land ownership does now? For all we know the "heirs" that you speak of here were the dispossessed ruling classes which would mean that land would end up being concentrated in even fewer hands than before.

In addition to that, at what point do we start measuring land as "stolen"? Is there a time limit?
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Old 9th March 2018, 07:36 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
But did land ownership in pre-1600s South Africa exist in the same fashion as modern land ownership does now? For all we know the "heirs" that you speak of here were the dispossessed ruling classes which would mean that land would end up being concentrated in even fewer hands than before.

In addition to that, at what point do we start measuring land as "stolen"? Is there a time limit?
Also, back in the 1600’s the people the land is being “returned” to were relative newcomers themselves having recently stolen, on in the process of stealing, the land from the San and Khoikhoi people who were there before they arrived.

Common matrilineal and patrilineal lines among the San diverge sooner than the common those of the Europeans and Bantu people fighting over the land now. In a sense the people fighting over the land now are more closely related to each other than the people both stole the land from.
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Old 9th March 2018, 08:55 AM   #135
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In part that's why I'm asking if there's a limit to when. I'm finding a lot of contradictory evidence when it comes to the Bantu migrations into South Africa, I suspect part of that has to do with political pressure from colonial governments. It might be comparable to the official Rhodesian views on Great Zimbabwe.

One thing that does seem clear is that when the Cape Colony was established the people living there were Khoikhoi. Ultimately it seems that the Khoisan people ended up being pushed into certain areas by both the Europeans and the Bantu speakers.
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Old 9th March 2018, 12:16 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
In part that's why I'm asking if there's a limit to when.
It's not exactly a new problem or question.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_possession

How one establishes, or even how one justifies the establishment of titled ownership over land is in itself a difficult question with no single right answer.
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Old 9th March 2018, 01:05 PM   #137
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I think the better way to look at any proposed action is what will the result of that action be, not what is the justification of that action. Many things that do no good are easily justified.




ETA: Not meant as a direct reply to lomiller's post discussing justification of establishment of land ownership, but to the proposed revocation of ownership.
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:15 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I think the better way to look at any proposed action is what will the result of that action be, not what is the justification of that action. Many things that do no good are easily justified.




ETA: Not meant as a direct reply to lomiller's post discussing justification of establishment of land ownership, but to the proposed revocation of ownership.
Yeah, let's just break out our crystal balls, and if we are wrong then in 100 years we will be held accountable.
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:28 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If we assume that the above is reasonable*, then how would you intend to deal with the myriad of consequences this brings. Not least of which is that you've now turned over all the fertile land to people who don't know how to farm efficiently in the post Haber age.


Gong back to one of my ongoing bugbears, this isn't 'left', it's lunacy.






*I don't think it is for a host of reasons.

I wonder if dann thinks the same thing about the United States vis a vis Native Americans....
And I guess he wants to move all the Afrikkaners back to the Netherlands.s Good luck with that...
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:33 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
My wife's family fled Berlin before the Red Army arrived. Some family is now living in the house her great-grandfather built. My wife's family was never compensated.

The house still stands, we drove by it when we were in Berlin some years ago.

Should we demand it back? Should the family now inhabiting it be compensated for the loss of their home? It was illegally confiscated by the DDR, a puppet government of a colonising power.
Let's not forget all the people who fled from East Prussia,now inhabited exclusively by Poles....
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:35 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, really!




So it would make you happy if I called them 'descendants of European colonialists' instead? And pretended that grabbing land from the .... 'indigenous'?! ... population had nothing whatsoever to do with racism?
Could have been just pure greed.........
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:37 PM   #142
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I still want dann to tell us what will happen to White South Africans after they have had all their property taken from them.
Don't know if the Netherlands and the UK are ready for the big population increase...
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Old 9th March 2018, 11:44 PM   #143
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Regardless, we can rest assured that the "coloured" and "Indian" members of SA's population will be right-royally screwed - again
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Old 10th March 2018, 08:22 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I still want dann to tell us what will happen to White South Africans after they have had all their property taken from them.

I don't know. That would depend on the circumstances.
But we do know what happened to Black South Africans after their land was taken away form them, don't we? Why doesn't that seem to concern you?
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Old 10th March 2018, 08:24 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Could have been just pure greed.........

Yes, it probably was, justified by racism.
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Old 10th March 2018, 08:32 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
But did land ownership in pre-1600s South Africa exist in the same fashion as modern land ownership does now? For all we know the "heirs" that you speak of here were the dispossessed ruling classes which would mean that land would end up being concentrated in even fewer hands than before.

In addition to that, at what point do we start measuring land as "stolen"? Is there a time limit?

The time limits appears to be that only land confiscated after European colonized it is stolen. They appear to be the only true and rightful owners, for whatever reason.
And of course landownership in the pre-1600s didn't exist in the same fashion as modern landownership!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th March 2018, 08:37 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I don't know. That would depend on the circumstances.
But we do know what happened to Black South Africans after their land was taken away form them, don't we? Why doesn't that seem to concern you?
Which group are you talking about, Bantu, Khoikhoi or San?
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Old 10th March 2018, 08:39 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The time limits appears to be that only land confiscated after European colonized it is stolen. They appear to be the only true and rightful owners, for whatever reason.
And of course landownership in the pre-1600s didn't exist in the same fashion as modern landownership!
So to whom shodl land be returned? To Bantu, Khoikhoi or San?
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Old 10th March 2018, 08:46 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The time limits appears to be that only land confiscated after European colonized it is stolen. They appear to be the only true and rightful owners, for whatever reason.
I was hoping to understand where you would draw the line on when land would be considered "stolen".

Quote:
And of course landownership in the pre-1600s didn't exist in the same fashion as modern landownership!
Okay. So who would receive the land that was stolen? The heirs of the landowners who had the land taken from them or just some random person who happens to have the right skin colour?
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Old 10th March 2018, 09:07 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
As opposed to descendants of African colonialists?

And it had nothing to do with racism (I doubt there was even such a word back then) and everything to do with might and power. The same as every other invasion/landgrab/call it what you will, since time immemorial.

Just ask the Mongol hoards/Romans/Greeks/Zulus etc etc.

It had everything to do with racism. Do you actually think that it requires knowledge of the word racism in order to be a racist? Nobody has claimed that the pursuit of "might and power" is always racist, but whenever they are pursued against other races, it almost always is.

Again I recommend Steve Kowit's article about the mass suicide of the Xhosas. There's a reference to it here:

Quote:
The mass suicide had taken the lives of some 100,000. However, the account of this mass suicide is tempered by author Steve Kowit's indictment of the British colonial government for its mistreatment of the Xhosa people and their hypocrisy for writing historical accounts in which they claim to have generously fed the survivors.
Apes Or Angels?: Darwin, Dover, Human Nature, and Race

Unfortunately, only the Danish translation of Steve Kowit’s article appears to be openly accessible, but you can still get hold of it in Skeptic Magazine: The Mass Suicide of the Xhosa - A Study in Collective Self-Deception, by Steve Kowit

The best thing about it is that it criticizes the delusions of both black Africans and white South Africans.
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Old 10th March 2018, 09:08 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Which group are you talking about, Bantu, Khoikhoi or San?

Like I said: doesn't seem to concern you.
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Old 10th March 2018, 09:10 AM   #152
dann
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
So to whom shodl land be returned? To Bantu, Khoikhoi or San?

Why are you so interested in that question when it's so obvious that you think that the present owners are the rightful owners?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th March 2018, 09:12 AM   #153
dann
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
I was hoping to understand where you would draw the line on when land would be considered "stolen".

No, you weren't.

Quote:
Okay. So who would receive the land that was stolen? The heirs of the landowners who had the land taken from them or just some random person who happens to have the right skin colour?

I thought that the present landowners were the random persons who happen to have the right skin color ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th March 2018, 10:19 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Like I said: doesn't seem to concern you.
Doesn't matter. Can I have that answer? or are you going for yet another avoidance?

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why are you so interested in that question when it's so obvious that you think that the present owners are the rightful owners?
Answer kindly that question. My motivation is irrelevant. It is irrelevant. I don't need any anyway. (beside getting yet another wave of refuges in Europe)
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Old 10th March 2018, 10:46 AM   #155
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I guess New Zealand and Australia (particularly Western Australia) had better brace themselves or another influx of refugee white farmers.
That was my first thought. Hopefully they'll all go to Perth. Or Darwin - plenty of room there.

It's been fascinating to watch the waves of Saffer migrants. At the start, it was the real intelligensia whites: top-class engineers, doctors & professionals, which must have done the country an immense amount of harm.

They look visionary right now, though.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I, for one, welcome them so long as they leave their racist and bigoted viewpoints behind in the Republic.
In my long experience with dealing with far too many of them, I can say with a fair bit of authority that a great deal do not.

I am constantly amazed at how privileged whites have been in SA right up to today - some of the most useless humans on the planet have still been able to carve successful careers, solely by being not a kaffir.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I still want dann to tell us what will happen to White South Africans after they have had all their property taken from them.
Don't know if the Netherlands and the UK are ready for the big population increase...
UK has a precedent at dealing with ostensibly British subjects kicked out of Africa, I'm sure...
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Old 10th March 2018, 01:40 PM   #156
dann
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Doesn't matter. Can I have that answer? or are you going for yet another avoidance?
Answer kindly that question. My motivation is irrelevant. It is irrelevant. I don't need any anyway. (beside getting yet another wave of refuges in Europe)

I've already answered it:

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Private ownership always fails, but people never learn ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th March 2018, 03:31 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I've already answered it:
So simply theft of land to give it to friends of government. Just like Zimbabwe... That answers it in a way, but ti is as atrocious idea as it sounded.

We learned. My country tried it. It simply didn't work. Your idea was already discredited over span of 40 years. No need to retry it yet another time in yet another country. It just leaves mess of things and barely functional stuff.
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Old 10th March 2018, 07:14 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, you weren't.
Then tell me what's going on inside my own mind.

Quote:
I thought that the present landowners were the random persons who happen to have the right skin color ...
Which is completely irrelevant to what I said.
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Old 11th March 2018, 03:20 AM   #159
Henri McPhee
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It's a question of European survival in Africa. if you look at the history of South Africa you find that there was only a narrow majority for South Africa to go to war against Germany. Many Afrikaan people were pro- German and regarded the Jews as Asiatic. These people were in control of South Africa after the war. It has been said that Natal should have joined up with the Rhodesias and Kenya and Uganda, but I suppose that's all too late now.

African governments seem to prefer the Chinese to Americans and Europeans, and they think there is no future for the white farmer. Rhodesia was the breadbasket of Africa, though there were still problems of soil erosion and insect damage. People were optimistic about the future of Rhodesia in 1954, but that is not the case now. Governments are supposed to further the interests of the people, not just to enrich a few black people in the political and business elite.
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Old 11th March 2018, 04:07 AM   #160
Eddie Dane
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let's not forget all the people who fled from East Prussia,now inhabited exclusively by Poles....
Indeed.

Europe has many examples of horrible land confiscation and ethnic cleansing.
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