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Old 11th March 2018, 04:32 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
It's a question of European survival in Africa. if you look at the history of South Africa you find that there was only a narrow majority for South Africa to go to war against Germany. Many Afrikaan people were pro- German and regarded the Jews as Asiatic. These people were in control of South Africa after the war. It has been said that Natal should have joined up with the Rhodesias and Kenya and Uganda, but I suppose that's all too late now.
Wut?



Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
African governments seem to prefer the Chinese to Americans and Europeans, and they think there is no future for the white farmer. Rhodesia was the breadbasket of Africa, though there were still problems of soil erosion and insect damage. People were optimistic about the future of Rhodesia in 1954, but that is not the case now. Governments are supposed to further the interests of the people, not just to enrich a few black people in the political and business elite.
Seriously?............1954......

The Chinese are liked because the give shedloads of money without 'silly' conditions like human rights. The get access to cheap labour etc.

A win/win for the ruling elite and the Chinese.
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Old 11th March 2018, 05:57 AM   #162
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My view, as a politically aware South African, is that the call for expropriation without compensation (EWC) is just a rallying call to try and bring back supporters who have lost faith in the ANC before next year's election. This includes voters who have turned to the EFF.

The ANC have been hemorrhaging support since Zuma basically made the party and the government his personal fiefdom. There has been talk of them getting less than 50% of the vote next year, though I suspect now that Zuma has been relegated to relative obscurity, this may change.

The bottom line is that the majority of people are just not interested in land as a physical entity. From this article, for example:

Quote:
However, comprehensive opinion polls commissioned by the IRR from 2015 to 2017 have repeatedly shown that the great majority of black South Africans have little interest in land reform.

In the IRR's 2016 field survey, for instance, only 1% of black respondents (down from 2% the previous year) said that 'more land reform' was the 'best way to improve lives'. By contrast, 73% of black people saw 'more jobs and better education' as the 'best way' for them to get ahead.
Interesting to note as well was that 92% of successful past land claimants preferred cash over land.

On top of that, South Africa is not an easy place to farm, it has a highly variable climate and most of the land held by commercial farmers is subject to frequent droughts and other vagaries of the weather.

Some of South Africa's best agricultural land is held under common title and is almost totally unproductive - surviving as a kind of retirement area for families who make their living in urban areas.

Almost one third of all land in KwaZulu-Natal, about 3 million hectares, is controlled by Zulu King Goodwill Zwelithini. This is highly fertile land, and there is no way in hell the king will give it up - it's his power base. He and the Ingonyama Trust control leaseholds on this land, and there will never be ownership of it. In fact, currently any land occupation rights in that area are being changed to long term leases.

I suspect that the status quo will remain after the elections. This is just lip service. However, the rhetoric is dangerous, and will result in more violence, racism, and economic hardship in the medium term.
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Old 11th March 2018, 06:52 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
I don't want to come across as callous here, ignoring the victims of a very unjust system. I was brought up in SA in SA between the 60s until I left in the 00s, for family reasons.

I saw firsthand what apartheid did to people. I was an early member if the end conscription campaign (the defence force, in addition to blasting people in Angola, SWA and Mozambique, was being used to suppress South Africans in the townships). I avoided national service for years, even leaving the country for a while when things got a bit hot (the options were army or jail basically). I had friends who went even further. One was sentenced to death for planning to blow **** up (he later became a cabinet minister in the 'new' SA.)

I shed a tear when I saw Mandela walk out of jail, joined millions of others in the first proper, free election, and like many, was optimistic about the future of SA.

There was so much hope, and so many possibilities.

There still is.

But there is the wrong way to do things, and the past decade or so has been pretty disastrous.

This latest move won't help anyone.
Your post mirrors my past, although with a couple of differences:

I ended up having to do national service, after much legal woes and avoidance. I was also an early member of the End Conscription Campaign - I was something of an anomaly, being one of the few who had completed service and then joined.

Unfortunately I did not have the funds to abscond overseas. Add to this that at the time my father was a prominent editor at one of the "English liberal" newspapers who was already been browbeaten by the PW Botha government, threatened with detention without trial, phones tapped, random searches, etc. If I had been spirited away, my family would have been screwed. It was a bad time.

I ended up in detention for 3 months at Hillbrow (nailed by spooks at an ECC event), and while that does not in any way compare to the experiences of others, it made me realise the utter dehumanisation that took place there, and was enough to make me extremely careful of my actions going forward.
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Old 11th March 2018, 09:20 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
My view, as a politically aware South African, is that the call for expropriation without compensation (EWC) is just a rallying call to try and bring back supporters who have lost faith in the ANC before next year's election. This includes voters who have turned to the EFF.

The ANC have been hemorrhaging support since Zuma basically made the party and the government his personal fiefdom. There has been talk of them getting less than 50% of the vote next year, though I suspect now that Zuma has been relegated to relative obscurity, this may change.

The bottom line is that the majority of people are just not interested in land as a physical entity. From this article, for example:



Interesting to note as well was that 92% of successful past land claimants preferred cash over land.

On top of that, South Africa is not an easy place to farm, it has a highly variable climate and most of the land held by commercial farmers is subject to frequent droughts and other vagaries of the weather.

Some of South Africa's best agricultural land is held under common title and is almost totally unproductive - surviving as a kind of retirement area for families who make their living in urban areas.

Almost one third of all land in KwaZulu-Natal, about 3 million hectares, is controlled by Zulu King Goodwill Zwelithini. This is highly fertile land, and there is no way in hell the king will give it up - it's his power base. He and the Ingonyama Trust control leaseholds on this land, and there will never be ownership of it. In fact, currently any land occupation rights in that area are being changed to long term leases.

I suspect that the status quo will remain after the elections. This is just lip service. However, the rhetoric is dangerous, and will result in more violence, racism, and economic hardship in the medium term.
With so little interest in land reform, how can it be a vote winner?

And with so little interest in land reform, I think it's even more screwed up to wreck the nation's investment climate with this move.

Another question: does the Zulu king lease out the land or is it used in a different manner?
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Old 11th March 2018, 09:39 AM   #165
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How much of that land would the Zulu king be required to hand back? Since the expansionist phase of the Zulus was after white people showed up in the area.
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Old 11th March 2018, 09:45 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
How much of that land would the Zulu king be required to hand back? Since the expansionist phase of the Zulus was after white people showed up in the area.
Wait for the resident lefties to show up and defend the land rights of a feudal lord who acquired his land through colonialism. Because brown people.
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Old 11th March 2018, 09:47 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Wut?





Seriously?............1954......

The Chinese are liked because the give shedloads of money without 'silly' conditions like human rights. The get access to cheap labour etc.

A win/win for the ruling elite and the Chinese.
I remember talking to a surgeon once, who mentioned a patient in the UK in Somerset who was the wife of a white farmer in Rhodesia, and whose husband had been badly injured by gunfire by Mugabe activists. She had been left for dead. Her face had been badly damaged. The point is that she is very bitter that the white farmers in Zimbabwe had been left alone by the authorities. There was deafening silence from America about all this as usual, which was only interested in Russian collusion, and that sort of case was never mentioned on BBC Pravda, or ITV, while the Oscars and moans about the NHS were discussed on and on.
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Old 11th March 2018, 10:42 AM   #168
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I remember talking to someone, once, who's uncle's granny's cousin's neighbour knew someone, who told them that their nephew's ex partner's hairdresser once....

Oh sorry, i forgot.

Do you have a point?

And you are doing that BBC Pravda nonsense again.
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Old 11th March 2018, 10:54 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
Your post mirrors my past, although with a couple of differences:

I ended up having to do national service, after much legal woes and avoidance. I was also an early member of the End Conscription Campaign - I was something of an anomaly, being one of the few who had completed service and then joined.

Unfortunately I did not have the funds to abscond overseas. Add to this that at the time my father was a prominent editor at one of the "English liberal" newspapers who was already been browbeaten by the PW Botha government, threatened with detention without trial, phones tapped, random searches, etc. If I had been spirited away, my family would have been screwed. It was a bad time.

I ended up in detention for 3 months at Hillbrow (nailed by spooks at an ECC event), and while that does not in any way compare to the experiences of others, it made me realise the utter dehumanisation that took place there, and was enough to make me extremely careful of my actions going forward.
Your surname is not Sparks is it?

I had some issues with spooks as well, basically just the crap beaten out of me on the minedumps at Wemmerpan, when they were looking for an acquaintance of mine. It didn't help that I didn't know him that well, and had no idea where he was. They did know all about me, which was kind of scary.

Had some fun run ins with some of our more conservative brethren handing out ECC leaflets at clubs. I did learn to run quickly after a couple of them got painful.

It was an interesting time, but lots of fun as well.
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Old 11th March 2018, 08:21 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
With so little interest in land reform, how can it be a vote winner?
It's more to do with consolidating black voters than land reform per se. All the ANC are doing is making sure that blacks vote only for the ANC, and not diffuse the vote between other black parties.

This news post from today sorta proves my point.

The ANC is longing to get more than 60% of the vote again.

Quote:
And with so little interest in land reform, I think it's even more screwed up to wreck the nation's investment climate with this move.
Totally agree with you. We are all speculating here about the reasons for this, past cheap political gains.

Quote:
Another question: does the Zulu king lease out the land or is it used in a different manner?
The trust (which the king is essentially in control of) grants "Permission to Occupy" to prospective landholders. (You will immediately see that this practice is open to abuse. If you're not Zulu, for example, forget it.)

The mechanism is discussed in the article I linked to in my previous post.
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Old 11th March 2018, 08:38 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Your surname is not Sparks is it?
No, but I knew Alister pretty well.

Quote:
I had some issues with spooks as well, basically just the crap beaten out of me on the minedumps at Wemmerpan, when they were looking for an acquaintance of mine. It didn't help that I didn't know him that well, and had no idea where he was. They did know all about me, which was kind of scary.
It was amazing how much they knew, pre-Google nogal

Quote:
Had some fun run ins with some of our more conservative brethren handing out ECC leaflets at clubs. I did learn to run quickly after a couple of them got painful.
Happily I was fairly large and at the time insanely fit (thanks to the army, ironically), with a healthy dislike for racists. I generally ended up being the bodyguard for the rest of the media crew.

Quote:
It was an interesting time, but lots of fun as well.
It's not often you get the opportunity to see a hated political system fall! Yes, there were fun times, there were also not-so-fun times. Knowing that you could literally just "disappear" if some gun-happy bigoted little spook didn't like the way you looked at him or answered his questions, was rather sobering.
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Old 11th March 2018, 11:59 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What does that have to do with anything? The point is that the question of white vs black would vanish and so would the question of land ownership. I didn't say it would solve all problems including polio and world poverty.
Actually, there are people such as Skeptic Tank who point to the "solutions" of make everyone the same colour as a vindication of his racism.

No, as theprestige says, tribal divisions don't need to be racial to create exactly the same problems, it is merely one identifiable way of creating arbitrary animosity between people.
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Old 12th March 2018, 02:33 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
It's more to do with consolidating black voters than land reform per se. All the ANC are doing is making sure that blacks vote only for the ANC, and not diffuse the vote between other black parties.

This news post from today sorta proves my point.

The ANC is longing to get more than 60% of the vote again.



Totally agree with you. We are all speculating here about the reasons for this, past cheap political gains.



The trust (which the king is essentially in control of) grants "Permission to Occupy" to prospective landholders. (You will immediately see that this practice is open to abuse. If you're not Zulu, for example, forget it.)

The mechanism is discussed in the article I linked to in my previous post.
I see.

Other (extremist) parties are promising land confiscation, by doing same the ANC steals their thunder.

This tends to work in real life and doesn't have to be a bad thing. In Hungary Orban's sidelined a straight-up neo-fascist party by copying some of their rhetoric. The end result is still ugly but preferable to the alternative.
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Old 12th March 2018, 04:03 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
I avoided national service for years, even leaving the country for a while when things got a bit hot (the options were army or jail basically).
Or study!

Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
I ended up having to do national service, after much legal woes and avoidance. I was also an early member of the End Conscription Campaign - I was something of an anomaly, being one of the few who had completed service and then joined.
I'm a bit younger than you guys. I was so lucky.
Made up my mind in high school that I would not go to the army (it inspired me to study harder). Fortunately I managed to do well enough to get a bursary for university.
In the early 90's my dad got a job offer he could not refuse and my parents moved to Switzerland. They wanted me to come over as well but I loved SA and refused to leave (I now wish I also had a Swiss passport ).
I was still busy with my masters when conscription ended, .

Now my younger sister and my parents are in the UK and I'm the only one left in SA.
I was always super positive about SA and wanted to stay here, now I'm feeling less positive.
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Old 12th March 2018, 04:52 AM   #175
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Studying was an option, but only delayed the inevitable. You still had to do national service after graduating. Although having a degree was a fast track into officer training.
I remember many debates at school, whether to get it over with (except for camps) and then study, or study first and avoid being a 'troop' after basics, but be that much older and be shouted at by a youngster during basics. I think most of my friends did the army first.

I hid.
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Old 12th March 2018, 04:55 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I've already answered it:
What in the blue hell does that even mean?
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Old 12th March 2018, 05:07 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
...

Now my younger sister and my parents are in the UK and I'm the only one left in SA.
I was always super positive about SA and wanted to stay here, now I'm feeling less positive.
Bummer.
I would have stayed if it was just me. I had a nice big house, successful business, and life was good.
But had just had a kid, and I wasn't convinced that long term it was the best option for him.
Now I'm ok with that decision. He is about to finish a masters in engineering and has a bright future.
My parents are still over there. In the Cape. With no water. Too old to move now.
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Old 12th March 2018, 05:54 AM   #178
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To the question in the OP: No.
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Old 12th March 2018, 07:41 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Studying was an option, but only delayed the inevitable. You still had to do national service after graduating. Although having a degree was a fast track into officer training.
I remember many debates at school, whether to get it over with (except for camps) and then study, or study first and avoid being a 'troop' after basics, but be that much older and be shouted at by a youngster during basics. I think most of my friends did the army first.

I hid.
Yeah, that's how I eventually got caught - went to Tech first, then they called me up during my first year of university, saying I could not change institutions.

Did officer's training, reasoning being that at least I had a buffer to refuse township duty, which is exactly what happened. As a standard grunt you had absolutely no say.

I was the youngest (at 21) in my section, oldest was 27, and our NCO was an 18 year old from SACS. We had him under our thumb within the first 3 weeks.

The biggest advantage of age and higher education during basics was that we saw right through the psychology employed to break us down, as well as the blatant propaganda that they tried to drill into us.
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Old 12th March 2018, 08:54 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post

Now my younger sister and my parents are in the UK and I'm the only one left in SA.
I was always super positive about SA and wanted to stay here, now I'm feeling less positive.
You are the wrong colour. You need to blacken up.
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Old 12th March 2018, 10:14 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, but most of you seem to think that one wrong is OK as long as it's the right one. And nobody seems to be concerned with righting the one wrong since that would wrong those who benefit from the latest wrong.
So why don't you come up with at solution to that one?!
How do you plan to right a wrong that was done to people who are now dead? You can't help them anymore, no matter what you do.

Sometimes life just isn't fair.
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Old 12th March 2018, 10:17 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
How do you plan to right a wrong that was done to people who are now dead? You can't help them anymore, no matter what you do.

Sometimes life just isn't fair.
Right. Some want to make it fair even though it's not practical or if it leads to more problems.

The solution would seem to provide a level playing field, a much as pragmatically possible, not engage in more injustice to "balance" things out.
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Old 12th March 2018, 10:36 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
To the question in the OP: No.
No to the end state, or no to the timeline?
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:16 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
.....

The biggest advantage of age and higher education during basics was that we saw right through the psychology employed to break us down, as well as the blatant propaganda that they tried to drill into us.
Not sure if we're derailing the thread, but as it doesn't seem to be going anywhere in particular...

Anyway might give people an insight into a bit of the old SA. (From a limited perspective admittedly.)

I was fortunate in that my father was pretty outspoken about apartheid. He did, and still does, treat everyone the same, so even with the christian national bias at school, I always knew something wasn't quite right. Being a totally non religious household helped.

I played in a band in high school (and later - even got paid once I'd finished school - officially a pro musician) and got to meet all sorts of unsavoury characters. (Sad aside - a few years later I got back from holiday and was told they'd found a decent drummer and I was sort of fired. To add insult he didn't have his own kit so they asked to borrow mine. I gave it to him as a present. I was pretty rubbish.)

I only rode motorcycles back then (cars were for old men and poofters) and hung around with heavy leather clad types. I also got a part time job at Exclusive Books in Hillbrow. Ironically I think I was the only straight guy working there (I didn't even know what that meant when I started.) We socialised a lot after shifts, so I bounced between heavies and very non heavies. Biker bars (the Anaconda anyone?) and gay clubs - I still have my Miss Dungeon 1982 sash somewhere - my girlfriend was voted Mr Dungeon, but I think they were just being nice to her because I was the devilishly handsome one.

Combined with the music scene, which had been going multiracial for a while (initially underground), I had a crash course in tolerance.

Helped by the fact that I'm a massive blues fan, and it's hard to be a proper racist when most of your heroes are rather black.

You could see change coming then. Even the east and west rand (conservative areas for non saffers) bands were getting on board. It was only a matter of time before younger people bolstered the older liberal voters.

Which is kind of what happened.

That and the rugby types wanting international games, maybe.
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Old 12th March 2018, 01:24 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
How much of that land would the Zulu king be required to hand back? Since the expansionist phase of the Zulus was after white people showed up in the area.
They don't mention the Zulu lands because they would have one hell of a fight on their hands if tried to consifscate that....
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Old 12th March 2018, 01:28 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Actually, there are people such as Skeptic Tank who point to the "solutions" of make everyone the same colour as a vindication of his racism.

No, as theprestige says, tribal divisions don't need to be racial to create exactly the same problems, it is merely one identifiable way of creating arbitrary animosity between people.
Look at what happened in the collapse of Yugoslavia and in Rwanda, where people of basically the same race but different "tribes" happily slaughtered each other.
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Old 12th March 2018, 06:56 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
They don't mention the Zulu lands because they would have one hell of a fight on their hands if tried to consifscate that....
And then the other thing would be how much land would South Africa be giving back to Lesotho and Swaziland, since lands that belonged to the kings of those countries lost land that's now part of South Africa.

Gotta right those wrongs right?
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Old 12th March 2018, 07:11 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
And then the other thing would be how much land would South Africa be giving back to Lesotho and Swaziland, since lands that belonged to the kings of those countries lost land that's now part of South Africa.

Gotta right those wrongs right?
It would be undignified.
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Old 12th March 2018, 08:28 PM   #189
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Swaziland: King Wants Land Back From S. Africa

Quote:
Swaziland has already formed a Border Determination Special Committee (BDSC) which the King wants to negotiate with South Africa over returning land occupied by people of Swazi descent.

The Observer reported, 'According to the BDSC, the old map of Swaziland showed that South Africa's administrative capital of Pretoria and larger portions of the Gauteng, Limpompo and KwaZuluNatal Provinces belong to the Swazi nation.'
'k
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Old 12th March 2018, 09:26 PM   #190
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Clearly they should get that land back, how else will you right the wrongs of the past by not returning the land to the heir of the person it was stolen from?
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Old 12th March 2018, 09:31 PM   #191
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Incidentally, the Economic Freedom Fighters, one of the parties that supports this measure has a rather radically different view on land ownership. Specifically that nobody should own any land except for the state, and the state doles out parts of it for people to use.
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:14 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No to the end state, or no to the timeline?
The end state.

Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Incidentally, the Economic Freedom Fighters, one of the parties that supports this measure has a rather radically different view on land ownership. Specifically that nobody should own any land except for the state, and the state doles out parts of it for people to use.
EFF is promoting a land lease program like many other countries have - you don't buy a property, you lease it for 99 years. This could actually work, if it was implemented sensibly.

The ANC also supports land expropriation, but as mentioned upthread, that's more a reaction to the traction the EFF has gained with this policy plank.

I'm convinced that Cyril has a plan. He's a wily fellow.
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Old 13th March 2018, 12:55 AM   #193
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Here's hoping....
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:48 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
How do you plan to right a wrong that was done to people who are now dead?

I don't plan to right any wrongs.

Quote:
You can't help them anymore, no matter what you do.

Has anybody in this thread suggested that you should try to help dead people?!

Quote:
Sometimes life just isn't fair.

No, it isn't. And in South Africa it's even worse.


Any plans?!
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:17 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I don't plan to right any wrongs.
It's really amazing the number of posters here who insist on a result, principle or action, and then claim that they don't care about it at all.
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:53 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I don't plan to right any wrongs.
But you seem to be in support of other people trying to right past wrongs. Or am I somehow misreading you?

I mean, what did this mean:
Quote:
And nobody seems to be concerned with righting the one wrong since that would wrong those who benefit from the latest wrong.
Are you not concerned with righting that wrong?

Quote:
Has anybody in this thread suggested that you should try to help dead people?!
You have been talking about a plan to right the wrongs done to dead people. Guess what, you can't. Those things already happened and nothing we do can change that.

Quote:
No, it isn't. And in South Africa it's even worse.


Any plans?!
Yes. Economic growth. They have made real progress in the past couple of decades. I'm pretty sure that that plan you are promoting would only negatively affect that:



https://businesstech.co.za/news/gene...ed-since-1994/
Quote:
Living conditions

- There are fewer informal homes in 2015 than in 1994, with a 131.3% increase in formal homes.

- People with access to electricity has increased for cooking (228%), lighting (192%) and heating (58%) – while access to water has more than doubled (110%) and access to toilets has also increased significantly (151%).

- The number of low income households (LSM 1-3) has decreased significantly – showing a move to higher income homes (LSM 4-7 and LSM 8-10).

- The middle class has increased significantly – almost doubling since 1994.

- Households living in extreme poverty has been been reduced from 52% of the black African population in 2002, to 20% in 2015.
All those things seem more important to me than income inequality, an issue which, if you really want to try to address it, rather than the more important problems of absolute wealth, you might consider taking a look at this book:
https://press.princeton.edu/titles/10921.html
Quote:
Ever since humans began to farm, herd livestock, and pass on their assets to future generations, economic inequality has been a defining feature of civilization. Over thousands of years, only violent events have significantly lessened inequality. The "Four Horsemen" of leveling—mass-mobilization warfare, transformative revolutions, state collapse, and catastrophic plagues—have repeatedly destroyed the fortunes of the rich. Scheidel identifies and examines these processes, from the crises of the earliest civilizations to the cataclysmic world wars and communist revolutions of the twentieth century. Today, the violence that reduced inequality in the past seems to have diminished, and that is a good thing. But it casts serious doubt on the prospects for a more equal future.
Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.
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Old 13th March 2018, 03:53 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's really amazing the number of posters here who insist on a result, principle or action, and then claim that they don't care about it at all.

It's really amazing that Belz (temporarily known as ...) isn't able to distinguish between not planning to right a wrong and not caring about it at all.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th March 2018, 04:09 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
But you seem to be in support of other people trying to right past wrongs. Or am I somehow misreading you?

Yes, of course I am. Aren't you?

Quote:
I mean, what did this mean:

Are you not concerned with righting that wrong?

Concerned with ...? I'd rather say: sympathize with ...

Quote:
You have been talking about a plan to right the wrongs done to dead people. Guess what, you can't. Those things already happened and nothing we do can change that.

I think you should go back and find a quotation. Or you might just take a look at post 22. But you seem to enjoy your strawman so much that you can't let go of it, don't you?

Quote:
Yes. Economic growth. They have made real progress in the past couple of decades.

And yet:
Quote:
South Africa income inequality and unemployment “highest in world”

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that that plan you are promoting would only negatively affect that:

I bet you are.

Quote:
https://businesstech.co.za/news/gene...ed-since-1994/

All those things seem more important to me than income inequality, an issue which, if you really want to try to address it, rather than the more important problems of absolute wealth, you might consider taking a look at this book:
https://press.princeton.edu/titles/10921.html

Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

Yes, your alleged cure certainly seems to be:

Quote:
South Africa income inequality and unemployment “highest in world”
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th March 2018, 04:20 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It's really amazing that Belz (temporarily known as ...) isn't able to distinguish between not planning to right a wrong and not caring about it at all.
Wordgames and grade school rhetoric. Why am I not surprised?
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Old 13th March 2018, 04:20 AM   #200
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The highest income inequality in the world is a meaningless metric.
During apartheid, income inequality was far worse than today.

It should be obvious that given our history, democracy was always going to be born with massive income inequality. That is simply an inevitable consequence of depriving 80% of the population of economic freedom.

What Roboramma was trying to point you to, is a more useful metric. The fact that the poorest LSM's are shrinking, while the middle class has more than doubled.

Continuing to bang the income inequality drum just indicates to me that you don't actually understand the reality of South Africa.
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