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Old 6th March 2018, 06:18 AM   #1
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Won't somebody think of the... err... maybe not...

BBC News: France to fix legal age of sexual consent as 15

"France plans to fix the legal age of sexual consent as 15, so an adult having sex with someone of that age or younger will be considered rape."

Seems to be something of a contradiction there.
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Old 6th March 2018, 06:21 AM   #2
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Someone didn't proof read!
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Old 6th March 2018, 06:23 AM   #3
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from the article:
Quote:
Currently, prosecutors must prove sex with someone under-15 was forced in order to bring rape charges.
So this would be an improvement in that anyone of 15 or under would not be considered capable of having consensual sex.
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Old 6th March 2018, 08:16 AM   #4
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In related news, Judge Roy Moore overheard practicing.....


Bonjour you all. Je sweeze oon a merry can. Je mapple Roy.
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Old 6th March 2018, 08:22 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Seems to be something of a contradiction there.
I don't see a contradiction. Please explain. Be easy on me because I can sometimes be slow.
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Old 6th March 2018, 08:51 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I don't see a contradiction. Please explain. Be easy on me because I can sometimes be slow.
If the age of consent is 15, they should have said that under 15 would be considered rape, or that 14 and under would be considered rape, not that 15 and under would be considered rape.

ETA: I suspect an error in translation.
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Old 6th March 2018, 08:59 AM   #7
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And it's been corrected.
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Old 6th March 2018, 09:07 AM   #8
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Ah yes very well. France is cutting edge. Is this a changing of something that was in place for hundreds of years?
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Old 6th March 2018, 09:08 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
In related news, Judge Roy Moore overheard practicing.....


Bonjour you all. Je sweeze oon a merry can. Je mapple Roy.
From the what I can tell, this change makes it impossible for an adult to have legal sex with someone under the age of fifteen, in France. The only reason Moore would be practicing his French right now is if he completely misunderstood the new law.
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Old 6th March 2018, 11:42 AM   #10
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The age of consent in a lot of the USA is 16.
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Old 7th March 2018, 04:08 AM   #11
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Wonder what happens if both people are under 15? I guess this is too rare to worry about.
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Old 7th March 2018, 04:47 AM   #12
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So 15 and a day is good to go?
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Old 7th March 2018, 04:58 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
So 15 and a day is good to go?

I'm fairly sure they have to say 'yes' first.


Of course, the statement above can be applied to any age of consent at all, the frisson is created by the proximity to the age of consent so it works whatever the age of consent is.
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Old 7th March 2018, 05:04 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Wonder what happens if both people are under 15? I guess this is too rare to worry about.

It becomes difficult to convict either of a crime, though it could subbesct both to family court-style adjudication as persons in need of supervision or other juvenile designations.
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Old 7th March 2018, 05:06 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
It becomes difficult to convict either of a crime, though it could subbesct both to family court-style adjudication as persons in need of supervision or other juvenile designations.


It would seem a little harsh to censure a 15 year old for wanting to have consensual sex and succeeding.
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Old 7th March 2018, 05:58 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It would seem a little harsh to censure a 15 year old for wanting to have consensual sex and succeeding.

Some might think that. But some might reasonably believe that a 15 year-old who makes such a decision needs more formalized and consistent supervision. I think it's at least reasonable for a society to make that kind of rule.

Certainly it would be unreasonable to allow 10 year-olds to have relations and unreasonable to keep 20 year-olds from doing so. The line is in there somewhere. I think 15 is within that zone.
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Old 7th March 2018, 06:29 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm fairly sure they have to say 'yes' first.
bloody red tape.
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Old 7th March 2018, 06:29 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Wonder what happens if both people are under 15? I guess this is too rare to worry about.
Most places with ages of consent have work arounds. Its not that hard to say, "unless both parties are under 15 or 17 or within 2 years old or whatever.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It would seem a little harsh to censure a 15 year old for wanting to have consensual sex and succeeding.
Like most places with an age of consent, I doubt they would censure the 15 year old unless the 15 year old wanted to have sex with a 13 year old.

It should be mentioned, they've passed this law after a couple of adult mean got out of rape charges after they had sex with an 11 year old.


Looks like around half of Europe has some kind of exemption if the two parties are close in age.
https://www.ageofconsent.net/continent/europe
The Vatican sets the age of consent at 18.

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Old 7th March 2018, 11:51 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
It becomes difficult to convict either of a crime, though it could subbesct both to family court-style adjudication as persons in need of supervision or other juvenile designations.
Just checking: subject?????
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Old 7th March 2018, 12:29 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Just checking: subject?????
Yes. Not sure how I managed to type that combination of letters.
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Old 7th March 2018, 12:35 PM   #21
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Is there an exemption to the law if you're a famous director? After all, Roman Polanski still lives in France, and they wouldn't want to interfere with his extracurricular activities.
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Old 7th March 2018, 12:43 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
The Vatican sets the age of consent at 18.
Lol

Oh the irony
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Old 7th March 2018, 02:00 PM   #23
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I don't see an enormous problem with this, though I'd rather the aoc be 17.

A lot of seemingly secular western attitudes about sex seem to have some conservative influence seep in, actually. We are so detached from our own experiences when we were adolescents, which, for me, was not that long ago compared to most posters here.

My cousin's daughter, my cousin once-removed, if you like, married a 33 year old when she was 17 (Roy Moore, anyone?), they dated when she was 16. In our culture that isn't unusual at all, though it's not common either. Predation CAN certainly occur but in this case nobody had a second thought. They are happily married, mutual consent all the way.

Many westerners today would think it's some heinous crime. It's naive to me. I grew up here for most of my life and I'm shocked at the backlash and exaggerated accusations.

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Old 7th March 2018, 02:23 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I don't see an enormous problem with this, though I'd rather the aoc be 17.

A lot of seemingly secular western attitudes about sex seem to have some conservative influence seep in, actually. We are so detached from our own experiences when we were adolescents, which, for me, was not that long ago compared to most posters here.

My cousin's daughter, my cousin once-removed, if you like, married a 33 year old when she was 17 (Roy Moore, anyone?), they dated when she was 16. In our culture that isn't unusual at all, though it's not common either. Predation CAN certainly occur but in this case nobody had a second thought. They are happily married, mutual consent all the way.

Many westerners today would think it's some heinous crime. It's naive to me. I grew up here for most of my life and I'm shocked at the backlash and exaggerated accusations.
I think most westerners would think it was creepy but not necessarily a heinous crime, I certainly wouldn't want my son or daughter dating/marrying someone who was nearly twice their age.

I'd argue that its almost impossible for a 16 year old and 32 year old to have an equitable relationship unless the 33 year old is extraordinarily immature.
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Old 7th March 2018, 02:31 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I think most westerners would think it was creepy but not necessarily a heinous crime, I certainly wouldn't want my son or daughter dating/marrying someone who was nearly twice their age.
If the 33 year old was your son, would you not want him to date or marry a 17 year old?
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Old 7th March 2018, 02:44 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
If the 33 year old was your son, would you not want him to date or marry a 17 year old?
Good point, no. I'd have a different reaction though, shame vs anger mixed with shame. Either way, I'd feel like I'd failed as a parent.

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Old 7th March 2018, 02:54 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Good point, no. I'd have a different reaction though, shame vs anger mixed with shame. Either way, I'd feel like I'd failed as a parent.
Would that change over time? For example, would you still be anger/shame if your 50 year old son dated or married a 33 year old?
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Old 7th March 2018, 03:05 PM   #28
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According to Swedish law it's a crime to intentionally have sex with someone that one knew, or at least suspected, was under the age of 15.

Despite the fact that the specific offence is called "rape of a child" there's no actual requirement of raping said underage person, in the same way that one is required to have acted when one is convicted of the normal offence of rape. Rather it's simply a crime irrespective of whether the underage person consented or not.

From some of the court judgement that I've read it's not uncommon for the judges to find that the victim did consent. Thus Sweden has no explicit statuary "age of consent" if that's interpreted literally.
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Old 7th March 2018, 03:29 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Would that change over time? For example, would you still be anger/shame if your 50 year old son dated or married a 33 year old?
Of course it would be different. A 33 year old is an adult by any reasonable definition. It would still be a bit weird though. I'd pretty much assume the younger person was a gold digger unless the older person was poor, then I'd assume the older person was blackmailing the younger somehow.

I'm 10 years older than my wife, its a bit weird too, we met when she was 28 so its not nearly as weird or creepy as if we'd met when she was 18 and would be even less weird if we'd met when she was 38.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
According to Swedish law it's a crime to intentionally have sex with someone that one knew, or at least suspected, was under the age of 15.

Despite the fact that the specific offence is called "rape of a child" there's no actual requirement of raping said underage person, in the same way that one is required to have acted when one is convicted of the normal offence of rape. Rather it's simply a crime irrespective of whether the underage person consented or not.

From some of the court judgement that I've read it's not uncommon for the judges to find that the victim did consent. Thus Sweden has no explicit statuary "age of consent" if that's interpreted literally.
In those court cases did the judge still find the defendants guilty of rape. Regardless, I think most people would be willing to say that 15 is the age of consent in Sweden.

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Old 7th March 2018, 03:37 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I'd argue that its almost impossible for a 16 year old and 32 year old to have an equitable relationship unless the 33 year old is extraordinarily immature.
I don't think this is fair judgement. Sure he could be immature but I've seen people with huge age gaps really with mundane mutual interests.

People often assume the guy has to be some blitheringly childish guy who hasn't grown up. Not the case. He could also have fewer options with women his own age, who are experienced and may be critical of the slightest faults (or they could be understanding )

I try to see things in really sort of raw, primal terms, make of it what you will. But I see other animals. A few looks, courtship, older males prefer females that are physically young yet adult looking. Conversation and courtship can't be that alien to either party, I mean.....it's just one of those things that organically you see it happen and it doesn't surprise you.

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Old 7th March 2018, 03:46 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
My cousin's daughter, my cousin once-removed, if you like, married a 33 year old when she was 17 (Roy Moore, anyone?), they dated when she was 16. In our culture that isn't unusual at all, though it's not common either. Predation CAN certainly occur but in this case nobody had a second thought. They are happily married, mutual consent all the way.
Sex is one thing and marriage is another. Sexual relationships don't have to be anything more than a one time thing while marriage is ostensibly a life-time commitment. Hence why in most European countries the at which one can engage in marriage is higher than the "age of consent" is.

Unfortunately In Sweden, and many other European countries, immigrants that come from more conservative areas of the world simply send their children back to their home country to get married (through pressure or outright force) if they fear they will have sex outside of marriage.

Recently there was a case where a Romanian boy was told by his parents that they were going to go back to Romania and marry another girl that he had never met. In this case he contacted a school counselor and asked for help so the police were able to prevent this.
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Old 7th March 2018, 05:55 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
In our culture that isn't unusual at all, though it's not common either.

Sorry for asking, but what culture do you mean?
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Old 7th March 2018, 06:51 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Sorry for asking, but what culture do you mean?
No don't be. We're from the highlands of northwestern Myanmar (Burma) in Southeast Asia, a rather conservative region of the country where Christianity has had a strong hold since the late 1800s.

But I don't think it's unusual at all out West either; it's just kept under wraps more. Ask any young, single man where his eyes drift in a crowd of people.

What is truly damaging is our culture is still deeply anti-sex ed still. People don't talk openly about sex outside of marriage and even worse, young people having sex, so it's systemically suppressed you could say.
Many of us now live in 1st world countries like the U.S., U.K., Scandinavian nations, and Australia/New Zealand. Hopefully they can learn something from these secular democracies.
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Old 7th March 2018, 10:25 PM   #34
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European children get their first round of Sexual education in Elementary school, and more around the time of puberty.
We can assume that a 15year old french kids knows what's going on and can make an informed decision, possibly more than many 18year old Americans who have been prevented from learning about contraception, etc.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:11 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
No don't be. We're from the highlands of northwestern Myanmar (Burma) in Southeast Asia, a rather conservative region of the country where Christianity has had a strong hold since the late 1800s.

When I think historically about when older men married younger women it seems like it was because of: 1) high mortality rates from pregnancy; and 2; economic superiority of men.

Burma had 178 maternal deaths per 100,000 in 2015 while the US had 14. Sweden had only 4. That works out to 2,800 mothers who died in childbirth in Burma.

In the Chin state in Burma, it's worse. 357 maternal deaths per 100,000.

I wonder if that ingrains itself into the culture is such a way as to play into the age gap that you're reporting.


(source)


- In any case, real evidence-based sex-ed is a simple, cheap and necessary first step to improving the population's health.
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Old 8th March 2018, 12:54 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I think most westerners would think it was creepy but not necessarily a heinous crime, I certainly wouldn't want my son or daughter dating/marrying someone who was nearly twice their age.

I'd argue that its almost impossible for a 16 year old and 32 year old to have an equitable relationship unless the 33 year old is extraordinarily immature.
My Dad was 34 when he married Mum in 1946. She was 19.

They remained happily married until Dad died in 1990
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Old 8th March 2018, 01:39 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
My Dad was 34 when he married Mum in 1946. She was 19.

They remained happily married until Dad died in 1990
That is a lovely anecdote. I have not said that all such relationships are inequitable or doomed to failure. Actually, I've said nothing about there likelyhood of staying to together. I said its nearly impossible for such a relationship to be equitable. But then pretty much all marriages in 1946 were inequitable so, there's that. There's other confounding factors, if you are a westerner, your mother didn't likely have as many options as she would have in 1936 or 1956.

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I don't think this is fair judgement. Sure he could be immature but I've seen people with huge age gaps really with mundane mutual interests.

People often assume the guy has to be some blitheringly childish guy who hasn't grown up. Not the case. He could also have fewer options with women his own age, who are experienced and may be critical of the slightest faults (or they could be understanding )
I think its probably a fair judgement most of the time. I think you're rationalizations, "its not him, its women his age that are the problem" is telling.

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I try to see things in really sort of raw, primal terms, make of it what you will. But I see other animals. A few looks, courtship, older males prefer females that are physically young yet adult looking. Conversation and courtship can't be that alien to either party, I mean.....it's just one of those things that organically you see it happen and it doesn't surprise you.
This could also be used as a defense of rape.

Last edited by ahhell; 8th March 2018 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:30 PM   #38
Arcade22
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
In those court cases did the judge still find the defendants guilty of rape.
Yes, although in at least one case a layjudge voted to acquit the accused because the underage person consented. They were unsurprisingly vote down by the others.

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Regardless, I think most people would be willing to say that 15 is the age of consent in Sweden.
Yes, but of course not in a hyperliteral sense.

Traditionally the Swedish formal term would be "the age of sexual self-determination" while the informal term is "byxmyndig" which is hard to translate into English, literally meaning something like "pants of age". Presumably it suggests to the age at which one is old enough to take off ones pants and have sex.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
European children get their first round of Sexual education in Elementary school, and more around the time of puberty.
We can assume that a 15year old french kids knows what's going on and can make an informed decision, possibly more than many 18year old Americans who have been prevented from learning about contraception, etc.
But how would that prevent parents from experiencing the intense negative emotional reactions associated with knowing, or even just imagining, that their children are having sex with some middle age man or men that are old enough to be their father? That's right, it can't!
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:45 PM   #39
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
That is a lovely anecdote. I have not said that all such relationships are inequitable or doomed to failure. Actually, I've said nothing about there likelyhood of staying to together. I said its nearly impossible for such a relationship to be equitable. But then pretty much all marriages in 1946 were inequitable so, there's that. There's other confounding factors, if you are a westerner, your mother didn't likely have as many options as she would have in 1936 or 1956.
Hehe! She was Swiss; so she probably had more options per capita than most other western European women
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Last edited by smartcooky; 8th March 2018 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:48 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
In related news, Judge Roy Moore overheard practicing.....


Bonjour you all. Je sweeze oon a merry can. Je mapple Roy.
Hey, it was a Frenchman, Maurice Chevalier, that made the song "THank Heaven For Little Girls" famous....
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