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Old 9th March 2018, 09:51 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
......atheist babies......
There's no other sort.

Unless of course you automatically assign a child to whatever belief system the parents follow, for clerical reason only of course.
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Old 9th March 2018, 09:51 AM   #42
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Well maybe if you'd have said that instead of scoring snark points you wouldn't have had to explain what you actually meant.
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Old 9th March 2018, 09:59 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I think the point is that there haven't been any anti-religious comments to get upset about, so it's necessary to invent some.

Dave
What if the standard is not religious, but the children socially conforming with their peers?

Say the school was talking about the easter bunny, and these foster children told the other kids there was no such thing, or were left out. Are the foster parents inhibiting their social growth and acceptance?
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Old 9th March 2018, 10:13 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
There's no other sort.

Unless of course you automatically assign a child to whatever belief system the parents follow, for clerical reason only of course.
While you are certainly free to believe that your baby is an atheist baby, please do not impose your beliefs on babies who have celebrated the Holy Sacrament of Baptism, or The Bris for our Jewish friends.
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Old 9th March 2018, 10:15 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What if the standard is not religious, but the children socially conforming with their peers?

Say the school was talking about the easter bunny, and these foster children told the other kids there was no such thing, or were left out. Are the foster parents inhibiting their social growth and acceptance?
Short answer: No.

Long answer: there isn't a family to be found that agrees with all of society on everything. Disagreeing with other children's parents on something trivial should not be a strike against them.
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Old 9th March 2018, 10:16 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Is the easter bunny thing really a social norm? I had to look it up on wikipedia to find out what it was all about. Seriously. No-one has ever talked about the easter bunny to me, or in my earshot. How widespread a thing is it?
It is extremely common in America. Even for the nonreligious. Chocolate Easter Bunnies are sold in the bazillions of tons. There is a whole retail world of things related to Easter and the Bunny is the prominent character. The White House has an annual Easter Egg Hunt and those eggs come from the Easter Bunny.

Mike, it's really huge in the USA.
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Old 9th March 2018, 10:29 AM   #47
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Come to think of it... Small brown roundish things left under a bush by a rabbit? They might not be eggs.
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Old 9th March 2018, 10:41 AM   #48
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I think something to consider is how much the agency views them as families versus managers of facilities.
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Old 9th March 2018, 10:45 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It is extremely common in America. Even for the nonreligious. Chocolate Easter Bunnies are sold in the bazillions of tons. There is a whole retail world of things related to Easter and the Bunny is the prominent character. The White House has an annual Easter Egg Hunt and those eggs come from the Easter Bunny.

Mike, it's really huge in the USA.
We eat the chocolate (well I don't) rabbits........but I have never heard anyone say why that's a thing. Until this thread.
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Old 9th March 2018, 10:47 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
While you are certainly free to believe that your baby is an atheist baby, please do not impose your beliefs on babies who have celebrated the Holy Sacrament of Baptism, or The Bris for our Jewish friends.

'k

That's an interesting concept. Maybe in an appropriate thread you'll be able to explain it.
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Old 9th March 2018, 11:07 AM   #51
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I'd be more worried about the rest of the indoctrination of the religion than the non-celebration of holidays.

It seems like the Canadian agency uses a "take it on a case by case basis" when it comes to societal non-conformity, and I think that's probably best. I can't imagine trying to "codify" this sort of stuff.
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Old 9th March 2018, 12:32 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It is extremely common in America. Even for the nonreligious. Chocolate Easter Bunnies are sold in the bazillions of tons. There is a whole retail world of things related to Easter and the Bunny is the prominent character. The White House has an annual Easter Egg Hunt and those eggs come from the Easter Bunny.

Mike, it's really huge in the USA.
One word... Peeps.

(Don't care for them myself but, what the hell... enjoy.)
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Old 9th March 2018, 12:42 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
One word... Peeps.

(Don't care for them myself but, what the hell... enjoy.)
They're fun to microwave.
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Old 9th March 2018, 03:16 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The case worker presumably meant that the foster parents were to some degree causing the kids to be ostracized, or at least made to feel left out. Acknowledging that it was handled unconstructively, did the case worker have a point?
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
In terms of pure entertainment value, telling kids the lie about the time when 1/3rd of god was brutally tortured to death, dying during a total eclipse while there's also a massive earthquake, and resurrected as a zombie along with a lot of other zombies is way, way cooler, anyway.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not the point. Say prospective foster parents had really off-the-wall beliefs, far outside social norms and standards, that they demanded the children participate in. What standards should a foster family be held to?
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
There's no other sort.

Unless of course you automatically assign a child to whatever belief system the parents follow, for clerical reason only of course.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What if the standard is not religious, but the children socially conforming with their peers?

Say the school was talking about the easter bunny, and these foster children told the other kids there was no such thing, or were left out. Are the foster parents inhibiting their social growth and acceptance?
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'd be more worried about the rest of the indoctrination of the religion than the non-celebration of holidays.

It seems like the Canadian agency uses a "take it on a case by case basis" when it comes to societal non-conformity, and I think that's probably best. I can't imagine trying to "codify" this sort of stuff.
Forgive my quoting so many posts but they are all relevant.

I think the social worker and/or the article's author did a disservice to the topic. It's a serious issue. It's why Native Americans insist orphaned NA children are only adopted by NA families.

For the Foster Care system, it really needs to be spelled out even if there still needs to be a case by case evaluation on top of it. Clearly telling kids the Easter Bunny and Santa don't exist should not be relevant. Kids are going to learn that fact at various ages. They deal with it just fine as some figure it out before others. (But the parents could tell the kids not to bring it up lest it piss off a friend's parent.)

But extremist religious views have no place in a foster home. And no, atheism is not an extremist view. Seems it would be nice to have parents of the same religion as the kids considered in placement.

I suspect the issue is unspoken when foster parents sign up, but there really needs to be some guidelines for the parents and the system.

Surely the Easter Bunny is not the only issue that comes up. I can see the problem being both with the evaluator and the parents. Could be the kids were fine but the social services worker was the one who looks for foster parents to follow the worker's beliefs.
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Old 9th March 2018, 03:46 PM   #55
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Speaking of babies, when I went to Bible camp as a kid, one of the staff, I still remember to this day, said our church was better because the Lutherans baptized infants who couldn't chose for themselves.
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Old 9th March 2018, 04:36 PM   #56
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The foster parents' objection was not that their religion forbids belief in the Easter bunny (nobody's religion believes in the Easter bunny) but rather that it forbids them to lie. This case could apply to foster parents of any religion or none who had a similar moral belief in not telling children lies.
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Old 9th March 2018, 04:46 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The foster parents' objection was not that their religion forbids belief in the Easter bunny (nobody's religion believes in the Easter bunny) but rather that it forbids them to lie. This case could apply to foster parents of any religion or none who had a similar moral belief in not telling children lies.
We do secular Easter and secular Christmas, and only kind of sort of did the Santa and Easter Bunny thing (we did it in a very pretend way when they were tiny, but also encouraged them as young as possible to catch on to the game) because of a personal conviction against lying.


Quote:
nobody's religion believes in the Easter bunny
Lots of Christian denominations have a pretty hard core distinctly religious objection to Santa and the Easter Bunny, because of how god-like and supernatural those characters are in children's minds, and because they oppose the "secularization" of "their" religious celebration.
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Old 9th March 2018, 04:58 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
..........and we'll take your kids off you.

Good gosh. I'm glad the foster parents won.
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:01 PM   #59
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Does foster parenting mean something different in commonwealth countries, than in the US?
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:14 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
We do secular Easter and secular Christmas, and only kind of sort of did the Santa and Easter Bunny thing (we did it in a very pretend way when they were tiny, but also encouraged them as young as possible to catch on to the game) because of a personal conviction against lying.



Lots of Christian denominations have a pretty hard core distinctly religious objection to Santa and the Easter Bunny, because of how god-like and supernatural those characters are in children's minds, and because they oppose the "secularization" of "their" religious celebration.
We had a similar approach to Santa. Treated it like a magical game when the kids were tiny but didn't try to dissuade them later when they expressed doubts but rather praised them for working out it was just pretend. And of course they were delighted to join the conspiracy so as not to spoil it for littler kids.

Something similar applied to God (yeah, we believe it's just pretend, but some people really believe it and they might be upset if you say they're wrong, so it's probably kindest not to challenge people's beliefs).

As MikeG illustrated, the Easter bunny is simply not a thing over here in the UK, so at least we're spared that.
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:20 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Good gosh. I'm glad the foster parents won.
Yes. State social workers supervising foster parents are rather notorious in the USA for actively working against foster parents establishing any lasting relationship with the kids. Especially if they hear the dreaded A-word -- Adoption. They'll yank the kids instantly if the foster parents seem remotely interested in that. The cynic in me wants to think they are preserving the status quo to protect their jobs. In reality...well, I can't think of any other reason.
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Old 9th March 2018, 06:07 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Yes. State social workers supervising foster parents are rather notorious in the USA for actively working against foster parents establishing any lasting relationship with the kids. Especially if they hear the dreaded A-word -- Adoption. They'll yank the kids instantly if the foster parents seem remotely interested in that. The cynic in me wants to think they are preserving the status quo to protect their jobs. In reality...well, I can't think of any other reason.
I've heard "them" (actual social workers) say their primary hope is that the kids are reunited with their biological parents having custody again, and some foster parents become less than thrilled at that prospect, and things get weird for the kid.
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Old 9th March 2018, 06:35 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I've heard "them" (actual social workers) say their primary hope is that the kids are reunited with their biological parents having custody again, and some foster parents become less than thrilled at that prospect, and things get weird for the kid.
Yes. Friends of ours were foster parents for a time. Every few months the social workers would send the girl to live with her drug-addled mother. It was a disaster every time.
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Old 9th March 2018, 07:30 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Yes. Friends of ours were foster parents for a time. Every few months the social workers would send the girl to live with her drug-addled mother. It was a disaster every time.
I'm glad I'm not a social worker, a foster parent, a drug-addled parent who can't get their act together, or a kid in the middle of a mess like that. It sounds like a frustrating and heartbreaking situation for all involved in every way.
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Old 9th March 2018, 07:45 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm glad I'm not a social worker, a foster parent, a drug-addled parent who can't get their act together, or a kid in the middle of a mess like that. It sounds like a frustrating and heartbreaking situation for all involved in every way.
Well said.
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Old 9th March 2018, 09:01 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
We do secular Easter and secular Christmas, and only kind of sort of did the Santa and Easter Bunny thing (we did it in a very pretend way when they were tiny, but also encouraged them as young as possible to catch on to the game) because of a personal conviction against lying.



Lots of Christian denominations have a pretty hard core distinctly religious objection to Santa and the Easter Bunny, because of how god-like and supernatural those characters are in children's minds, and because they oppose the "secularization" of "their" religious celebration.
Secular Easter. Talk about an oxymoron.

We do Jewish Eid and Moslem Yom Kippur.
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Old 10th March 2018, 01:00 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Secular Easter. Talk about an oxymoron.......
Nope. Not at all. Easter is a series of public holidays and school holidays here. What do you want us to do? Try to go in to work as normal, despite all workplaces being closed? Or just have a secular holiday at Easter?
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Old 10th March 2018, 01:17 AM   #68
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FWIW, my four year old grandson believes in the Easter Bunny, as does our other two, two year old grandkids. I’m not inclined to disabuse their beliefs.
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Old 10th March 2018, 02:19 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Nope. Not at all. Easter is a series of public holidays and school holidays here. What do you want us to do? Try to go in to work as normal, despite all workplaces being closed? Or just have a secular holiday at Easter?
Hmmm... the nearest to that would be Easter Sunday when larger retailers can't open but otherwise the idea that Easter and other such public holidays are enjoyed by all is rather misplaced.
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Old 10th March 2018, 03:06 AM   #70
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Now I'm imagining arguments in the dark ages: "You want to have a Christian Easter instead of a proper pagan one? Talk about an oxymoron!"
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Old 10th March 2018, 08:17 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Now I'm imagining arguments in the dark ages: "You want to have a Christian Easter instead of a proper pagan one? Talk about an oxymoron!"
well considering that Pascha was a well established Holy Day during the height of the Roman Classical Era, perhaps you may wish to reconsider?
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Old 10th March 2018, 09:10 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
While you are certainly free to believe that your baby is an atheist baby, please do not impose your beliefs on babies who have celebrated the Holy Sacrament of Baptism, or The Bris for our Jewish friends.
I was baptised as a baby, my parents may have celebrated but I certainly didn't I was too young to even understand the concept. I'm also absolutely bloody certain that any baby who could remember their bris wouldn't describe their reaction to having a bit of their penis cut off as 'celebrating'.
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Old 10th March 2018, 09:14 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It is extremely common in America. Even for the nonreligious. Chocolate Easter Bunnies are sold in the bazillions of tons. There is a whole retail world of things related to Easter and the Bunny is the prominent character. The White House has an annual Easter Egg Hunt and those eggs come from the Easter Bunny.

Mike, it's really huge in the USA.
In the UK it's all Easter Eggs and Easter Bunnies too, I don't think the issue is whether it is a common image in the culture but rather whether it is believed by children to be real, two distinct concepts.
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Old 10th March 2018, 09:17 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Nope. Not at all. Easter is a series of public holidays and school holidays here. What do you want us to do? Try to go in to work as normal, despite all workplaces being closed? Or just have a secular holiday at Easter?
This, you want the state to recognise your special days then the trade off is that the rest of us get to do our own thing.
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Old 10th March 2018, 09:19 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Hmmm... the nearest to that would be Easter Sunday when larger retailers can't open but otherwise the idea that Easter and other such public holidays are enjoyed by all is rather misplaced.
Schools? Two bank holidays? Okay retail and hospitality are still working but most people in the UK have a four day weekend.
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Old 10th March 2018, 09:21 AM   #76
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Quote:
"I was over in Australia during easter, which was intersting. Interesting to note they celebrate Easter the same way we do; commemorating the death and resurrection of Jesus by telling our children a giant bunny rabbit left chocolate eggs in the night.

Now, I wonder why we're ********** up as a race, anybody? Anybody got any clues out there?

Where do you get this **** from you know? Why those two things you know? Why not ‘Goldfish left Lincoln Logs in your sock drawer’ you know? As long as we’re making **** up, go hog wild you know. At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on it's back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous conotation to it.

'Mummy, I woke today and there was a Lincoln Log in me sock drawer!'.


'That's the story of Jesus'.

Who comes up with this ******! I’ve read the Bible. I can’t find the words ‘bunny’ or ‘chocolate’ anywhere in that *********** book".
Bill Hicks.
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Old 10th March 2018, 09:22 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Now I'm imagining arguments in the dark ages: "You want to have a Christian Easter instead of a proper pagan one? Talk about an oxymoron!"

They would have to get rid of the eggs and bunnies for a start.
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Old 10th March 2018, 09:45 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
They would have to get rid of the eggs and bunnies for a start.
well the tradition of Paschal Eggs finds its roots in the 4th Century in the newly formed Christian Churches in Mesopotamia, so...
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Old 10th March 2018, 09:55 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Nope. Not at all. Easter is a series of public holidays and school holidays here. What do you want us to do? Try to go in to work as normal, despite all workplaces being closed? Or just have a secular holiday at Easter?
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Hmmm... the nearest to that would be Easter Sunday when larger retailers can't open but otherwise the idea that Easter and other such public holidays are enjoyed by all is rather misplaced.
Not even that in the US. It's kind of a major event in the restaurant business, and the car dealers will be having sales.
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Old 10th March 2018, 10:05 AM   #80
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Easter is huge in the US: the candy sold in stores temporarily changes shapes and the wrappers change color schemes!
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