ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 12th March 2018, 05:24 AM   #41
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How many investigations are ongoing?



Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
There is a small number of individual investigations ongoing, that we know about. What is missing is any attempt at a concerted effort to tackle these crimes across the UK. AFAIK this 'revelation' (LOL) is simply a report and not a criminal investigation.

How odd that when a bunch of millionaire celebrities have their phones 'hacked', the police immediately assign hundreds of detectives to the case, which runs over many years and costs countless millions, but when thousands of children are raped, tortured and murdered in towns and cities across the UK all the police can do (when they're not actively aiding the rapists) is sit on their hands for thirty years then make excuses for why they have done next to nothing.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 05:37 AM   #42
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,963
Originally Posted by baron View Post
This whole thing is a bad joke. The under-estimation of abuse victims in the predominant Pakistani 'grooming' (for 'grooming', read 'rape, torture and murder') gang phenomenon is tragic. Fourteen hundred girls were identified in Rotherham - a single small town - and for some unexplained reason it was assumed that this was a one-off. Now a thousand plus girls are being identified in another town and people are, Whoa! Not again! How is that possible? Well, it's possible because it has happened in is still happening in scores of towns and cities up and down the country, on a scale of Rotherham and greater.
You seem to have mistyped "wildly guesstimated." Twice.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 05:41 AM   #43
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You seem to have mistyped "wildly guesstimated." Twice.
Just come right out and deny it's happening. That's at least being honest. Don't do any research, don't try to gain any knowledge of the topic, just claim the problem doesn't exist and be true to your real agenda.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 05:42 AM   #44
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,963
Originally Posted by baron View Post
How odd that when a bunch of millionaire celebrities have their phones 'hacked', the police immediately assign hundreds of detectives to the case, which runs over many years and costs countless millions, but when thousands of children are raped, tortured and murdered in towns and cities across the UK all the police can do (when they're not actively aiding the rapists) is sit on their hands for thirty years then make excuses for why they have done next to nothing.
Crimes have clearly occurred. It is a huge leap, though, to characterise all the purported estimated victims as having been any or all of those things. A lot of what went on seems to have been transactional, even if exploitative and/or illegal.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 05:44 AM   #45
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Just come right out and deny it's happening. That's at least being honest. Don't do any research, don't try to gain any knowledge of the topic, just claim the problem doesn't exist and be true to your real agenda.
I guess we’ve discovered the limits of the #metoo campaign
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 05:48 AM   #46
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Crimes have clearly occurred. It is a huge leap, though, to characterise all the purported estimated victims as having been any or all of those things. A lot of what went on seems to have been transactional, even if exploitative and/or illegal.
“Transactional”?

If I were to fashion the most outrageous Poe, I don’t think I would have gone as far as that minimization.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 06:04 AM   #47
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,200
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Crimes have clearly occurred. It is a huge leap, though, to characterise all the purported estimated victims as having been any or all of those things. A lot of what went on seems to have been transactional, even if exploitative and/or illegal.
Did you mean to post this in the Harvey Weinstein thread?
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 06:10 AM   #48
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,824
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
A lot of what went on seems to have been transactional, even if exploitative and/or illegal.
Where are you getting this from, and how is it materially different from if nobody got paid for anything?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 06:16 AM   #49
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,022
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I find this opinion of hers disquieting, or to be more accurate, outrageous.
In her book "The Hidden Gender of Law", Kelly argues "there is no clear distinction between consensual sex and rape, but a continuum of pressure, threat, coercion and force".
The idea that sex between men and women could ever even in principle be characterised by desire or fulfilment experienced by women, let alone by mutual affection or love, is entirely absent from this perception.
It's not clear from context: Is she describing her own views on sex, or the law's views on sex?
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 06:36 AM   #51
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,963
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Where are you getting this from, and how is it materially different from if nobody got paid for anything?
It was certainly a characteristic of some earlier cases that initial activity was in exchange for alcohol and drugs, or at least that sexual activity occurred after the perpetrators were generous in various ways. Many of the alleged victims considered that they have a "boyfriend" in a single individual, at least at first. Obviously that doesn't negate the fact that many of them were underage, regardless of any other considerations.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 06:40 AM   #52
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,200
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It was certainly a characteristic of some earlier cases that initial activity was in exchange for alcohol and drugs, or at least that sexual activity occurred after the perpetrators were generous in various ways. Many of the alleged victims considered that they have a "boyfriend" in a single individual, at least at first. Obviously that doesn't negate the fact that many of them were underage, regardless of any other considerations.
Yeah, but that's like saying Ted Bundy gave women rides.

I'm sure troubled and lonely 13-year-olds are up for a boyfriend with a car and access to weed.
I'm not so sure they want to sexually service five of his mates behind a dumpster.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 06:52 AM   #53
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,679
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Did you mean to post this in the Harvey Weinstein thread?
Or one on Jeff Sessions???
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 07:08 AM   #54
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It was certainly a characteristic of some earlier cases that initial activity was in exchange for alcohol and drugs, or at least that sexual activity occurred after the perpetrators were generous in various ways. Many of the alleged victims considered that they have a "boyfriend" in a single individual, at least at first. Obviously that doesn't negate the fact that many of them were underage, regardless of any other considerations.
So they drugged children as well as raped them.

Hopefully the counsel for the defense can now rest.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 07:43 AM   #55
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I guess we’ve discovered the limits of the #metoo campaign
Yep, plus the limits of feminism itself*, but that's been true for as long as it's being going on.

* Barring a tiny number of individuals.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 07:44 AM   #56
Arcade22
Illuminator
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 4,660
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Or is it that we've started exposing these situations earlier than other countries? Given how the abuse scandal of the RCC was initially (and victims derided for decades before being taken seriously) seemingly confined to Ireland and then exploded throughout the world I would be very wary in thinking this is largely confined to the UK (even though I wish it is).
It's a common fact that vulnerable (young) adults, teenagers and children are at a heightened risk of being sexually abused or otherwise exploited compared to their more "normal" peers. That's hardly something

Drug users, delinquents, those from troubled households, runaways, the homeless and LGBT people are examples of non-mutually exclusive categories of such vulnerable youth. Giving them (superficial) affection, gifts, money, alcohol, drugs or simply a place to stay that's not at home is often enough to get them endure sexual relations that they'd otherwise refuse.

Depending on their age and other circumstances it might be even be legal, or at least hard to prove in court that a crime occurred.

Just a couple of years ago there was a case here in Sweden where two brothers had sexually abused and exploited children for a decade and a half. Their victims were mostly boys in their pre/early-teens and they came from "troubled families". They may not have abused hundreds of people but they abused them for a very long time without being caught.

The reason they were caught was because a relative decided to make a post on an online forum that said "Hi, I'm a young girl who is friends with two pedophile brothers". No one apparently knew that they were abusing the children, or at least no one reported their suspicions to the police.

That's what's so tricky about putting a stop to abuse like this: the authorities can only intervene if someone reports it. The parents are usually oblivious for one reason or another. The victims are unwilling to contact the police because of feelings of shame, complicity and fear of the potential consequences of how their family, relatives and friends might respond. Any negative psychiatric issues that might arise are usually rationalized as being the result of them being a "problem child".
__________________
Freedom you all want, you want freedom. Why then do you haggle over a more or less? Freedom can only be the whole of freedom; a piece of freedom is not freedom. You despair of the possibility of obtaining the whole of freedom, freedom from everything - yes, you consider it insanity even to wish this? - Well, then leave off chasing after the phantom, and spend your pains on something better than the - unattainable. - Max Stirner

Last edited by Arcade22; 12th March 2018 at 07:48 AM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 07:47 AM   #57
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
The frost on the tip of the iceberg. I recall being roundly ridiculed some 10 - 12 years ago when I said 'hundreds' of girls had been abused by gangs in one area. Now people are waking up, but they're waking up to a figure that is still way short of the truth.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 07:51 AM   #58
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
That's what's so tricky about putting a stop to abuse like this: the authorities can only intervene if someone reports it.
True in some instances, not in these cases. The relevant police forces have been aware of it for decades. In some cases they facilitated the abuse; at best they permitted it. A 13 year old girl raped in a car park by a gang of men; the police turn up, let the men go free and arrest the girl for 'drunk and disorderly'. A man reported his 13 year old daughter missing for the nth time, he tells the police the address where she is being held captive by a gang of Pakistani men. The police refuse to act so he goes to the house to try and get her back. The police appear immediately and arrest him. A couple of instances that illustrate the overarching attitude of the police, that the girls are trash and the perpetrators practically untouchable.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"

Last edited by baron; 12th March 2018 at 07:52 AM.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 07:52 AM   #59
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,824
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yep, plus the limits of feminism itself*, but that's been true for as long as it's being going on.

* Barring a tiny number of individuals.
Can you elaborate upon that observation?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 07:54 AM   #60
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Can you elaborate upon that observation?
What, the observation that most feminists have been deafeningly silent about the rape, torture and on occasion murder of thousands of young girls whilst popping up every five seconds to comment on some poor actress having her knee touched at a charity dinner?
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 08:16 AM   #61
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 15,643
Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
It reminds me a lot of this incident, which took place in my childhood home town. This is one of the reasons I'm skeptical.
McMartin Preschool or Dale Akiki.
__________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Medium minds discuss events.
Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 08:19 AM   #62
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,824
Originally Posted by baron View Post
What, the observation that most feminists have been deafeningly silent about the rape, torture and on occasion murder of thousands of young girls whilst popping up every five seconds to comment on some poor actress having her knee touched at a charity dinner?
Hmmm.

Point taken.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 08:22 AM   #63
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,963
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
So they drugged children as well as raped them.
Yeah, because obviously there is nothing to be learned from the context of why this happened, right?

Last edited by Information Analyst; 12th March 2018 at 08:27 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 08:26 AM   #64
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,963
Originally Posted by baron View Post
The frost on the tip of the iceberg. I recall being roundly ridiculed some 10 - 12 years ago when I said 'hundreds' of girls had been abused by gangs in one area. Now people are waking up, but they're waking up to a figure that is still way short of the truth.
What iceberg do you think Cleveland was on top of? It's also the case that many of those series of events have very little in common with each other other than sexual exploitation by existing criminals. It's known that sexual exploitation is rife in London street gangs, but nobody rushes to start a Wikipedia page about that. I wonder why.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 08:27 AM   #65
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,824
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yeah, because obviously there is nothing to be learned from the context of why this happened, right?




**** off.
What is going on in the UK with this stuff?

I'm trying to figure out if there's a US equivalent that I've just never heard about, or if it's a bigger issue in the UK, or what...?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 08:38 AM   #66
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yeah, because obviously there is nothing to be learned from the context of why this happened, right?
The context being:
- vulnerable children are vulnerable
- police and social services are guilty of (at best) dereliction of duty, and (at worst), of facilitating and being accessories to abuse.
- UK institutions care about PR, appearences and rocking the boat more than they do about saving kids.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 08:39 AM   #67
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,963
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What is going on in the UK with this stuff?

I'm trying to figure out if there's a US equivalent that I've just never heard about, or if it's a bigger issue in the UK, or what...?
It's certainly a more complex problem that some people are pretending it to be. We certainly know that within the context of child abuse, it is most likely to happen within families and within wider communities. There are many who seem to thing that cases like these are somehow "worse" because a large number of victims are from a different community than the perpetrators, although in a number of instances investigations found victims within the perpetrators own communities, as well.

Are the attitudes of some Muslim men towards females - and particularly non-Muslim females - part of the equation? It would be foolish to dismiss it entirely, but almost certainly not any sort of motivation, let alone a primary one.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 08:39 AM   #68
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
What iceberg do you think Cleveland was on top of?
The national situation. What else do you think I'm talking about?

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It's also the case that many of those series of events have very little in common with each other other than sexual exploitation by existing criminals.
Nonsense. Street grooming (a laughable term that belies what's really going on) is a very specific offence disproportionately actioned by a very specific demographic. If you paused to do some research you'd understand the connections.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It's known that sexual exploitation is rife in London street gangs, but nobody rushes to start a Wikipedia page about that. I wonder why.
I believe you. I really do believe you wonder why.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 08:41 AM   #69
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20,573
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm trying to figure out if there's a US equivalent that I've just never heard about, or if it's a bigger issue in the UK, or what...?
Pimping juvenile girls on the scale claimed in this thread? Uh no, not happening in the USA. The pimps and johns would be lucky to be arrested instead of beaten to death or shot. Yeah, Americans with guns will create their own justice when little girls are involved.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 08:45 AM   #70
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,963
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The context being:
- vulnerable children are vulnerable
- police and social services are guilty of (at best) dereliction of duty, and (at worst), of facilitating and being accessories to abuse.
- UK institutions care about PR, appearences and rocking the boat more than they do about saving kids.
The problem is pretending these are institutional failings, rather than crap decisions made by individuals. We know that social workers are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. If they are overcautious, they get accused of taking kids into care unnecessarily, criminalising parents, or whatever. If they are too credulous of parents or alleged abusers' accounts, kids can end up dead - cf Baby Peter, Victoria Climbié, etc.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 12th March 2018 at 09:16 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 08:49 AM   #71
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,963
Originally Posted by baron View Post
The national situation. What else do you think I'm talking about?
Perhaps you'd like to explain what relevance Cleveland has to these other very different cases?

Quote:
Nonsense. Street grooming (a laughable term that belies what's really going on) is a very specific offence disproportionately actioned by a very specific demographic. If you paused to do some research you'd understand the connections.
No, it smacks of sectioning off one manifestation of abuse, pretending it is qualitatively different from other types of abuse, and using it as a stick to beat a whole community with.

Quote:
I believe you. I really do believe you wonder why.
That you'd rather make snide jokes than address the point says a lot.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 08:50 AM   #72
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,963
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Pimping juvenile girls on the scale claimed in this thread? Uh no, not happening in the USA. The pimps and johns would be lucky to be arrested instead of beaten to death or shot. Yeah, Americans with guns will create their own justice when little girls are involved.
Have you been watching Taxi Driver again...?
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 09:00 AM   #73
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What is going on in the UK with this stuff?

I'm trying to figure out if there's a US equivalent that I've just never heard about, or if it's a bigger issue in the UK, or what...?
There are two main issues. The actions of the criminals and the inaction of the authorities. The latter I've gone into in excruciating detail in other threads, so we'll pass on that. The former can be dealt with more briefly.

For historical reasons, many of the Pakistani communities in the UK come from backwards rural regions in Pakistan, steeped in conservative Islamic culture. These UK communities are fiercely insular and grow at a considerable rate, and instead of integrating with the wider population like most immigrants do, they actually ferment into cultures even more racist, violent and regressive than those of their originating geographical locations. Many are nothing more than enormous criminal gangs, subsisting through human trafficking, the drugs trade and prostitution, all enacted in a neo-conservative framework of Islamic culture that objectifies women and vilifies the kaffir whilst permitting a whole slew of serious criminal activity. This is something that people in the US just don't get. They look at their own Muslim communities, which tend to be ordinary people who happen to be Muslim, and imagine that ours are the same.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"

Last edited by baron; 12th March 2018 at 09:01 AM.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 09:01 AM   #74
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Perhaps you'd like to explain what relevance Cleveland has to these other very different cases?


No, it smacks of sectioning off one manifestation of abuse, pretending it is qualitatively different from other types of abuse, and using it as a stick to beat a whole community with.


That you'd rather make snide jokes than address the point says a lot.
It wasn't a joke, sadly. The rest of your post reinforces this observation.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 09:03 AM   #75
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,963
Originally Posted by baron View Post
It wasn't a joke, sadly. The rest of your post reinforces this observation.
As does yours does of your MO.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 09:05 AM   #76
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,679
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The context being:
- vulnerable children are vulnerable
- police and social services are guilty of (at best) dereliction of duty, and (at worst), of facilitating and being accessories to abuse.
- UK institutions care about PR, appearences and rocking the boat more than they do about saving kids.
Like the catholic church - as well as a number of protestant same.
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 09:06 AM   #77
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,211
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Pimping juvenile girls on the scale claimed in this thread? Uh no, not happening in the USA. The pimps and johns would be lucky to be arrested instead of beaten to death or shot. Yeah, Americans with guns will create their own justice when little girls are involved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Jane_Doe

This review of the film

https://www.filminquiry.com/i-am-jane-doe-2017-review/

states:

"Child sex trafficking is a much bigger issue in the US than you or I could probably have ever imagined. There are very limited statistics, due to so many young people falling out of the system and unwillingness or inability of victims to come forward. There are estimates of around 300,000 children under the age of 18 being trafficked in the US every year."
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 09:06 AM   #78
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
The problem is pretending their are institutional failings, rather than crap decisions made by individuals.
Widespread institutional failings of the police and social services have been exhaustively detailed, admitted and apologised for on numerous occasions. Nobody who's even spent five minutes watching the news could deny they exist.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 09:08 AM   #79
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,679
Originally Posted by baron View Post
There are two main issues. The actions of the criminals and the inaction of the authorities. The latter I've gone into in excruciating detail in other threads, so we'll pass on that. The former can be dealt with more briefly.

For historical reasons, many of the Pakistani communities in the UK come from backwards rural regions in Pakistan, steeped in conservative Islamic culture. These UK communities are fiercely insular and grow at a considerable rate, and instead of integrating with the wider population like most immigrants do, they actually ferment into cultures even more racist, violent and regressive than those of their originating geographical locations. Many are nothing more than enormous criminal gangs, subsisting through human trafficking, the drugs trade and prostitution, all enacted in a neo-conservative framework of Islamic culture that objectifies women and vilifies the kaffir whilst permitting a whole slew of serious criminal activity. This is something that people in the US just don't get. They look at their own Muslim communities, which tend to be ordinary people who happen to be Muslim, and imagine that ours are the same.
Where proven true, dig them out and deport them to an island somewhere. A small island with little land and far from any others. Let the kids remain in GB. Same re: the US. Put them all on the same small island!!!

Last edited by fuelair; 12th March 2018 at 09:09 AM.
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 09:13 AM   #80
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Where proven true, dig them out and deport them to an island somewhere. A small island with little land and far from any others.
Don't worry, , Brexit has that covered.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:23 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.