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Old 12th March 2018, 11:32 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Can you please stop using "vulnerable children", yes some of the children would be classed as vulnerable but the majority wouldn't, being poor or living on a bad estate does not make a child vulnerable.
I'm not trying to use it in some 'social worker-esque' way. I'm using it in the normal English usage of:

vulnerable:
- susceptible to physical or emotional attack or harm.
- (of a person) in need of special care, support, or protection because of age, disability, or risk of abuse or neglect.

These kids, in common English usage, were vulnerable. The reason I point that out, is that there is a deliberate minimization going on, regarding "transactions" and the like, implying that these kids were trading on a level playing field rather than [having their vulnerability] being taken advantage of.
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:33 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
No need for them to be honest when it is so damn obvious. Literally 1 out of every 5 posts in this thread is by the exact same poster performing some of the weakest (even if only because it is so blatant) damage control possible.
There is no damage control, it's a problem, and is being addressed, probably a bit slowly, but it's working it's way out of the woodwork.

Whether is as huge, or widespread as the Mail (and similar rags) might think is open to speculation.

Simply because they are rags.
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:34 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
From readings ISF and JREF over the years I have to imagine that people from the UK bring up the US in every situation in their day to day lives.

"It sure is cloudy today..." "Ah, but the Americans have clouds too!"

"It sure is cloudy today..." "Ah, but the Americans have worse clouds! 10 times as many!"

(fixed)
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:37 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Didactylos View Post
Only very superficially...

....SP: There has never been a documented case of satanic child abuse (or very few?)
UK: Young girls targeted by grownups for abusive relationships and child prostitution is regrettably common.

A picture of the perps reveals a certain low-brow gangsta' mindset, dare I say (not necessarily one of race, religion or country of origin). They might be grownups but they are grownups who are gang members.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...oming-12165527
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:40 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
There is no damage control.

Maybe I'm just better accustomed to spotting it after dealing with the Republican Party's completely dishonest and disingenuous damage control that over the past 20 years has just ramped up to insane levels.

There is a huuuuggge difference between what we saw happen in the first 100 posts in this thread and normal healthy skepticism.


Back on topic, Darat nailed the problem here:


Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Unfortunately it has ever been the case in the UK that social class will dictate in general terms how someone is treated by the authorities. I am sure if many of the girls had been from the middle classes and above more action would be happening. As the report in Rotherham showed many of the victims were discounted simply because they came from the wrong side of the tracks

A weird type of racism and class prejudice lies at the heart of this matter and both need to be tackled if we want to stop it.

Non-action is the same thing as a cover-up. They are part and parcel.
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:43 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post

There is a huuuuggge difference between what we saw happen in the first 100 posts in this thread and normal healthy skepticism.

QFT
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:47 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Can you please stop using "vulnerable children", yes some of the children would be classed as vulnerable but the majority wouldn't, being poor or living on a bad estate does not make a child vulnerable. Or means they should be treated differently to the cabinet minister's child. It is a common thread throughout these reports that time and time again the authorities wrote off mant of these children as they were considered to put it bluntly scum so it was probably their fault that they were being raped by 5 men a day.
A "vulnerable child" might be one who is already addicted to drugs and/or alcohol before they encounter very bad and dangerous people such as traffickers.
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:52 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
How do you propose to get a precise number on a crime like human trafficking which by its very nature goes vastly underreported?
I don't know how you get precision. Maybe show a range so that instead of...

Quote:
300,000 children under the age of 18 being trafficked in the US every year
You have something like...

Between 50,000 and 500,000 children under the age of 18 being trafficked in the US every year.
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:53 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I'm not trying to use it in some 'social worker-esque' way. I'm using it in the normal English usage of:

vulnerable:
- susceptible to physical or emotional attack or harm.
- (of a person) in need of special care, support, or protection because of age, disability, or risk of abuse or neglect.

These kids, in common English usage, were vulnerable. The reason I point that out, is that there is a deliberate minimization going on, regarding "transactions" and the like, implying that these kids were trading on a level playing field rather than [having their vulnerability] being taken advantage of.
I understand that but they were no more vulnerable than "other" children and given how the word is bandied around in these reports I think it causes a terrible sense of "safety" for some people "Oh my child isn't vulnerable so they will be OK".

All children are inherently vulnerable to such predators.
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:53 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Maybe I'm just better accustomed to spotting it after dealing with the Republican Party's completely dishonest and disingenuous damage control that over the past 20 years has just ramped up to insane levels.

There is a huuuuggge difference between what we saw happen in the first 100 posts in this thread and normal healthy skepticism.


Back on topic, Darat nailed the problem here:





Non-action is the same thing as a cover-up. They are part and parcel.

I agree with what both you (and it's bloody hard to admit that, trust me) and Darat said.

It's not sp much a cover up, which implies cooperation and coordination, as a don't give a **** because we have better things to do than listen to chavs.

But it is out now, and things will happen. However as mentioned, it needs some fundamental changes in how things are viewed, so will be a hard, probably slow process.
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Old 12th March 2018, 12:06 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post

All children are inherently vulnerable to such predators.
Exactly.

That was what I was trying to communicate to 'just a series of mutual transactions, nothing to see here, move along' Information Analyst.
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Old 12th March 2018, 12:08 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Exactly.

That was what I was trying to communicate to 'just a series of mutual transactions, nothing to see here, move along' Information Analyst.
I think that's a very uncharitable reading of IA's post.
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Old 12th March 2018, 12:10 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
I agree with what both you (and it's bloody hard to admit that, trust me) and Darat said.

It's not sp much a cover up, which implies cooperation and coordination, as a don't give a **** because we have better things to do than listen to chavs.

But it is out now, and things will happen. However as mentioned, it needs some fundamental changes in how things are viewed, so will be a hard, probably slow process.
I would say the results are the same but a coverup implies that people not only know about what's going on they are actively trying to prevent discovery.
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Old 12th March 2018, 12:18 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
There is no damage control, it's a problem, and is being addressed, probably a bit slowly, but it's working it's way out of the woodwork.

Whether is as huge, or widespread as the Mail (and similar rags) might think is open to speculation.

Simply because they are rags.
It was a Mirror investigation that paints a picture of the Telford events are being more wide-ranging than those which culminated in seven convictions in 2013. As can be seen by referring to the Wikipedia page as it was at the end of 2017, at that time the number of victims was put at 100 between 2007 and 2009. More to the point, the Mirror claims the abuse is still going on.
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Old 12th March 2018, 12:19 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
... for 'grooming', read 'rape, torture and murder') ... is still happening in scores of towns and cities up and down the country ...

The total ... will be in the multiple tens of thousands for the past 30 - 40 year period, the authorities have ... actively facilitated, these rapes ...
When we're referring to scapegoat categories of people, there is no limit to what can be said, however fantastical.

The authorities are actively facilitating tens of thousands of children being raped tortured and murdered?

Last edited by Craig B; 12th March 2018 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 12th March 2018, 12:25 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Exactly.

That was what I was trying to communicate to 'just a series of mutual transactions, nothing to see here, move along' Information Analyst.
And "only if they're already addicted to drugs" William Parcher, apparently.
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Old 12th March 2018, 12:26 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I understand that but they were no more vulnerable than "other" children and given how the word is bandied around in these reports I think it causes a terrible sense of "safety" for some people "Oh my child isn't vulnerable so they will be OK".

All children are inherently vulnerable to such predators.
But not all children would be likely to have the same degree of contact - if any - with these of different types of predator. It seems "street grooming" has given way to "localised grooming," and there is a clue in that term.
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Old 12th March 2018, 12:36 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Exactly.

That was what I was trying to communicate to 'just a series of mutual transactions, nothing to see here, move along' Information Analyst.
Why do you feel the need to lie about what anyone who does not agree with your interpretation 100% has said?
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Old 12th March 2018, 12:40 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Why do you feel the need to lie about what anyone who does not agree with your interpretation 100% has said?
I stand by these, as being accurate not misrepresentation :

1) you described abusive relationships (that could not include meaningful consent) as transactional
2) you have attempted to minimize and deflect from the problem during the course of this thread

The laissez Faire police probably had much the same mindset.
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Old 12th March 2018, 12:48 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
If we only had the facts instead of estimates. We might even learn that it's 3 million children.
- and maybe they would be separated into "children" and "adolescents".
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Old 12th March 2018, 01:00 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
When were referring to scapegoat categories of people, there is no limit to what can be said, however fantastical.
Yes, best to ignore the clear and well-documented evidence and pretend everybody's at it, because that has worked so well for the past 40 years.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The authorities are actively facilitating tens of thousands of children being raped tortured and murdered?
I said nothing of the sort. What I actually wrote was, "The authorities have permitted, and in many cases actively facilitated, these rapes." Which is unquestionably true.
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Old 12th March 2018, 01:04 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
More to the point, the Mirror claims the abuse is still going on.
Of course it is, the message being conveyed to the rapists is that they can carry on doing what they're doing with a minimal chance of being caught. In an interview a couple of months ago a woman originally abused by Rotherham gangs, and who now works with affected girls in the area, was asked if the situation had improved since the Rotherham report. She replied, "Improved? If anything it's got worse."
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Old 12th March 2018, 01:09 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I stand by these, as being accurate not misrepresentation :

1) you described abusive relationships (that could not include meaningful consent) as transactional
2) you have attempted to minimize and deflect from the problem during the course of this thread

The laissez Faire police probably had much the same mindset.
Then I'm done having to listen to you.
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Old 12th March 2018, 01:12 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
The vast majority convicted were Muslim males from Pakistan. The Derby link states

"At the time of the Derby case 50 out of the 56 men convicted in English courts of on-street grooming of girls were Muslims, the majority from the British Pakistani community.[7] The significance of the race of the abusers was hotly disputed."

I say the significance of race is paramount. It explains everything. The reason is;

https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/pakistan

"There is no age of consent in Pakistan, as all sexual activity outside of marriage is illegal. The minimum age of marriage is 18 for men and 16 for women, although women are sometimes allowed to marry at age 14."

There is a totally different attitude towards women and sex in Pakistan. Since it is not illegal to have sex outwith marriage in the UK, some Pakistani men are taking that as a green light to mix their culture with UK laws.
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Old 12th March 2018, 01:21 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not clear from context: Is she describing her own views on sex, or the law's views on sex?
I'd hate to think that the law's views on sex recognised no clear distinction between consensual sex and rape.
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Old 12th March 2018, 01:29 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The context being:
- vulnerable children are vulnerable
- police and social services are guilty of (at best) dereliction of duty, and (at worst), of facilitating and being accessories to abuse.
- UK institutions care about PR, appearences and rocking the boat more than they do about saving kids.
The police in Scotland appear to have been far more proactive than elsewhere. Operation Dash involved numerous police officers all over Scotland (I was one) researching police systems, in particular the Vulnerable Persons Database, looking for signs a child was being groomed. The signs included -

- a sudden interest in their own appearance
- unexplained new clothes and gifts, in particular mobile phones
- becoming withdrawn/aggressive/secretive
- being picked up or dropped off by car or taxi
- disappearing for a night or weekend with no reasonable explanation
- increased alcohol consumption and hangovers

and the one that got alarm bells ringing the loudest, "friendships" with Asian males.

All it look for a young person (99% were female) to be then interviewed by the police and Social Work was a couple of the above taking place. Where I worked found no sign of grooming. It also had no significant Pakistani or Afghanistani community, in particular, young single males.
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Old 12th March 2018, 01:38 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
A "vulnerable child" might be one who is already addicted to drugs and/or alcohol before they encounter very bad and dangerous people such as traffickers.
And that was only the case in a minority of the cases we know about. Which is why I think we shouldn't use the term when talking about crimes against mainly "non-vulnerable" children.
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Old 12th March 2018, 01:43 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
- and maybe they would be separated into "children" and "adolescents".
Why?
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Old 12th March 2018, 02:15 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And "only if they're already addicted to drugs" William Parcher, apparently.
You quoted me wrong. I didn't say that. Why would you change what I said? This is a group conversation and you seem to have deliberately misquoted me.
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Old 12th March 2018, 02:20 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
To be fair, this attitude prevails only when the girl is an indigenous Briton and the perpetrators are not.
Do we have any details that would enable us to trace reports of this case? Names, dates?
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Old 12th March 2018, 02:22 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why?
Perhaps because "children" often brings up images of very young minors and toddlers, when several of them are often simply minor. Sometimes the word "children" is used simply to make them appear younger and elicit emotional reactions beyond what would otherwise be expected.

I'm speculating.
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Old 12th March 2018, 02:35 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Perhaps because "children" often brings up images of very young minors and toddlers, when several of them are often simply minor. Sometimes the word "children" is used simply to make them appear younger and elicit emotional reactions beyond what would otherwise be expected.

I'm speculating.
Sactly. Aren't there still a couple states where 16 is the age of consent? Is a 17 y.o. prostitute a children?
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Old 12th March 2018, 05:45 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I'd hate to think that the law's views on sex recognised no clear distinction between consensual sex and rape.
What you would hate isn't really relevant, though, is it? I mean, your preferences are three or four degrees of abstraction away from the question I asked.
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Old 12th March 2018, 05:47 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You quoted me wrong. I didn't say that. Why would you change what I said? This is a group conversation and you seem to have deliberately misquoted me.
Not quoting you, Bill. Dismissing your bad idea. Those were scare quotes, not a direct quotation.
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Old 12th March 2018, 08:46 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Now, wait a second. If person A's point is that the UK is particularily bad at X, is person B pointing out that the US is just as bad at X "whataboutism" or a good counter-argument?

It's definitely not a good counter-argument.


Person A: Your kid is killing his classmates and hiding their bodies in your basement.

Person B: Really? My cousin's kid does that too!
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Old 12th March 2018, 09:05 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I understand that but they were no more vulnerable than "other" children...

That's provably wrong. Children from poorer neighborhoods are much more vulnerable than children from affluent neighborhoods.

They are much more likely to start drugs early. Have worse grades. Drop out. Die. Be exploited in every way, like for work, any work, sexual in nature or not. **** they are much more likely to experience pretty much anything bad.

Less likely to have good schools at every level. Less likely to advance to higher education. Less likely to have police & fire protection. Less likely to have nearby access to average quality healthcare. Again, they are much less likely to experience pretty much anything good.

All of that = more vulnerable.
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Old 12th March 2018, 10:26 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
To be fair, this attitude prevails only when the girl is an indigenous Briton and the perpetrators are not.
That also depends on the social class of the girl.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Unfortunately it has ever been the case in the UK that social class will dictate in general terms how someone is treated by the authorities. I am sure if many of the girls had been from the middle classes and above more action would be happening. As the report in Rotherham showed many of the victims were discounted simply because they came from the wrong side of the tracks

A weird type of racism and class prejudice lies at the heart of this matter and both need to be tackled if we want to stop it.
The impression I got was that police forces were worried about looking "institutionally racist" because what impression would people get if they just rounded up a bunch of Central/Southern Asian Muslim men without any whites being involved. As you said about the social class of the girls, it probably helped them not do anything because of the impression that working class girls are slags who want it.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Of course it is, the message being conveyed to the rapists is that they can carry on doing what they're doing with a minimal chance of being caught. In an interview a couple of months ago a woman originally abused by Rotherham gangs, and who now works with affected girls in the area, was asked if the situation had improved since the Rotherham report. She replied, "Improved? If anything it's got worse."
Does that mean she's seeing more girls come forward? Because I hope that's simply because girls affected by this now feel safe to come forward instead of the existing ring having been replaced by a new one.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The vast majority convicted were Muslim males from Pakistan. The Derby link states

"At the time of the Derby case 50 out of the 56 men convicted in English courts of on-street grooming of girls were Muslims, the majority from the British Pakistani community.[7] The significance of the race of the abusers was hotly disputed."

I say the significance of race is paramount. It explains everything. The reason is;

https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/pakistan

"There is no age of consent in Pakistan, as all sexual activity outside of marriage is illegal. The minimum age of marriage is 18 for men and 16 for women, although women are sometimes allowed to marry at age 14."

There is a totally different attitude towards women and sex in Pakistan. Since it is not illegal to have sex outwith marriage in the UK, some Pakistani men are taking that as a green light to mix their culture with UK laws.
You're missing another part of it. In such cases the girls targeted came from outside of their community. It's why in Rotherham the girls were white British, there's also suggestions that British Asian girls from the Sikh community and apparently also from the Hindu community. To these people they know their actions are wrong within the community, but those without are fair game.
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Old 12th March 2018, 10:33 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Sactly. Aren't there still a couple states where 16 is the age of consent? Is a 17 y.o. prostitute a children?
Well legally, at least where I live, anyone under the age of 18 is a child or minor. Paying a child for sex, even one that's old enough to legally have sex with, is a criminal offence that's somewhat more serious than paying an adult. Instead of a fine you'd risk maybe half a year in prison.

To certain degree I find that it isn't really all that important. Even if they are an adult well into their twenties pressuring them into having sex or prostituting themselves, even in cases where it might not amount to a crime, to be a really abusive and exploitative behaviour.
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:30 AM   #159
Eddie Dane
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
That's provably wrong. Children from poorer neighborhoods are much more vulnerable than children from affluent neighborhoods.

They are much more likely to start drugs early. Have worse grades. Drop out. Die. Be exploited in every way, like for work, any work, sexual in nature or not. **** they are much more likely to experience pretty much anything bad.

Less likely to have good schools at every level. Less likely to advance to higher education. Less likely to have police & fire protection. Less likely to have nearby access to average quality healthcare. Again, they are much less likely to experience pretty much anything good.

All of that = more vulnerable.
More likely to have divorced parents or parents who use drugs, or both.

Less likely to have a parent notice something is up.

More likely to have parents who condone hangovers etc etc etc

And the neighbourhood brings lots of dangers too. I knew working-class English people who's son went off the rails (gang activity), even for responsible parents who don't condone their child's criminal activity, it's an uphill battle.
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:19 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
It's definitely not a good counter-argument.


Person A: Your kid is killing his classmates and hiding their bodies in your basement.

Person B: Really? My cousin's kid does that too!
Yeah, that's because you deliberately made it into a completely different argument. I said:

If person A's point is that the UK is particularily bad at X, is person B pointing out that the US is just as bad at X "whataboutism" or a good counter-argument?

So the argument above should be this:

Person A: Your kid is killing his classmates and hiding their bodies in your basement. He's the worst killer in human history.

Person B: He isn't thwe worst. My cousin's kid does that too!
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