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16th September 2021, 05:58 PM | #1881 |
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16th September 2021, 06:07 PM | #1882 |
Banned
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16th September 2021, 06:10 PM | #1883 |
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16th September 2021, 09:14 PM | #1884 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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16th September 2021, 09:40 PM | #1885 |
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
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It's true that, although Trump is obviously completely bonkers, he's not that particular kind of bonkers.
But it's also still sensible to take precautions in case his symptoms shift anyway. Any kind of bonkers is close enough to warrant never being trusted with any weapon more powerful than a watergun. |
16th September 2021, 11:06 PM | #1886 |
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no evidence for that.
Trump just didn't see any profit in it. During the Campaign, he called for seizing oil fields and other resources with military force. And he had no qualms about dropping MOABs or assassinating foreign leaders. Trump was not the moderating factor; neither was Pompeo |
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16th September 2021, 11:17 PM | #1887 |
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16th September 2021, 11:18 PM | #1888 |
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His previous behavior normally would support that and would be a point in his favor except (isn't there always an "except" with Trump?) he was increasingly showing erratic, manic, and delusional behavior. If there's one thing we know about Trump, it's that he'll do anything to stay in power including inciting an insurrection and turning on anyone who dares offend him. He's a hateful, spiteful, vengeful man with the emotional maturity of a little boy.
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16th September 2021, 11:55 PM | #1889 |
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17th September 2021, 06:43 AM | #1890 |
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sunmaster14, whose views of Trump often aligned with Ziggurat's (although sunmaster14 was often more willing to attempt to support his views with evidence and argument), wrote the following on 20 August 2016. With my highlighting:
Originally Posted by sunmaster14
A few days later, sunmaster14 expressed his faith that "guys with guns, i.e. the Secret Service", would protect us against the possibility that Trump would be "willing to use nuclear weapons indiscriminately", which sunmaster14 described as 'a rather strong indication of being so mentally unbalanced as to be "unable to discharge the power and duties ..." of the Presidency.' |
17th September 2021, 07:02 AM | #1891 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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17th September 2021, 07:07 AM | #1892 |
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"The" people?
Well, no. Most people working next to Trump did not reach the conclusion that Trump might start nuclear war. I don't think even Milley actually reached the conclusion that Trump might start nuclear war. I have seen no reporting that he has publicly claimed to have reached such a conclusion. Have you? Or are you just trying to read between the lines? Because it's very easy to be misled doing that. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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17th September 2021, 07:13 AM | #1893 |
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Most sane people working next to Trump were replaced by delusional sycophants, so that throws off the math a bit.
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17th September 2021, 07:15 AM | #1894 |
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Sorry, but I am not so sure about that.
After all, there were several times when Trump himself disparaged various military alliances and threatened military action as well as threating captives with torture. Also, there were the January 6 Capitol insurrection which Trump started. And, there is the more recent case where General Milley was so concerned about Trump launching an attack on China in October 2020 in order to get additional votes in November 2020 that Miley was poised to personally intervene to stop such an attack. |
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17th September 2021, 07:23 AM | #1895 |
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Was he?
Milley himself has made no such claim. The Woodward book apparently implies as much, but it also implies he violated the law by issuing commands, which he's not allowed to do. I'm currently inclined to think the Woodward book exaggerated whatever actually went down, that there's actually less there than meets the eye. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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17th September 2021, 07:53 AM | #1896 |
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And, as sunmaster14 went on to observe:
Originally Posted by sunmaster14
As sunmaster14 predicted, a crazy President was restrained—not often enough, of course, and just barely even when restrained. sunmaster14 deserves credit for foreseeing the possibility that we'd end up having to rely on "guys with guns", such as the Capitol Police and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Ziggurat can argue that sunmaster14 was paranoid and/or delusional, but the fact remains that sunmaster14 recognized and addressed the possibility that "Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness'" (the topic of this thread) even before Trump was elected. sunmaster14 was entirely too optimistic concerning the ease with which Trump's worst impulses and outright craziness would be restrained, but sunmaster14 was not so delusional as to accuse others (who recognized the danger) of being delusional. |
17th September 2021, 08:46 AM | #1897 |
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17th September 2021, 09:13 AM | #1898 |
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I think we are seeing that already. The claim that Milley promised to warn China if we were going to attack has already been denied, and instead it's now being said that Milley only pointed out that China would be able to tell if we were going to attack (ie, they would see our buildup). There is a common message between these versions (namely that China wouldn't be surprised by a US attack), but the difference is still quite significant.
And this wouldn't exactly be the first time that Woodward wasn't totally honest or accurate in his reporting. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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17th September 2021, 11:10 AM | #1899 |
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Of course Milley hasn't made any such public statements. But if, as widely reported, he assembled senior commanders to remind them of nuclear protocols and to insist that he be "involved" in any decision, that sure implies that he thought Trump could violate such protocols.
Woodward also reports that CIA Director Gina Haspel doubted Trump's sanity and feared a coup. https://news.yahoo.com/then-cia-dire...192920026.html The issue is not whether Trump would start a nuclear war; we have to hope that he would be restrained at least by the knowledge that he and his family live on this planet, too. The issue is that Trump had the power and authority to launch a war on his own whim; that's what officials moved to prevent. |
17th September 2021, 11:19 AM | #1900 |
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I disagree. According to those same reports, it was prompted by press reports about the topic, which suggests it was not prompted by anything Trump said or did, which implies that he didn't expect Trump to violate such protocols.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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17th September 2021, 12:02 PM | #1901 |
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Who has claimed what the highlighted sentence says from any "principles involved" with the phone calls? No one that I've seen. You've claimed this before and I asked you for examples earlier which you've never provided, along with never answering my other two question: You:
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17th September 2021, 12:07 PM | #1902 |
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Anyone who did not doubt Trump's sanity after his comments about Covid and bleach, etc, must doubt his IQ and ability to grasp simple facts, and conclude the same about his remaining supporters/followers. "Hey, let's swallow a UV bulb and shoot up horse tranqs!"
Much of a warmonger he is not, however, have to grant that; more of a cut-and-run sissy (ask the Kurds). The case on the wacko credentials of Trump et el has been closed, archived and gathering dust for some time, now. |
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17th September 2021, 12:10 PM | #1903 |
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17th September 2021, 12:21 PM | #1904 |
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As if you know the mind of Dump.
He's seriously mentally ill. It's one thing to be sure whatever he does/says will be about him and only him. He most certainly was looking for a way to declare martial law. I too think sending nukes off was an extremely remote possibility. But to say "never any risk" when the guys in the room thought otherwise is a confidence step too far. There would be no going back had Dump done something that stupid. And we have seen for 4 years Dump is no stranger to doing some really stupid things. |
17th September 2021, 12:26 PM | #1905 |
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False. The meeting on Jan. 8 was prompted by Trump's actions post-election and on Jan. 6 and Milley's concern about Trump's mental instability:
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Why would Haspel be an 'idiot' to believe that when what she was seeing was an attempt by Trump and his sycophants in Congress not to certify the election with claims that it had been "stolen" and "rigged"? When he was calling directly for Mike Pence to not certify the election. Why was she an 'idiot' when we know that Trump, Giuliani, Brooks, et al incited an insurrection on Jan 6? IMO, you'd have to be an idiot NOT to worry about a right wing coup.
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17th September 2021, 12:49 PM | #1906 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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17th September 2021, 12:56 PM | #1907 |
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17th September 2021, 12:57 PM | #1908 |
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You don't even notice the irony of your own post.
In a sense, you're right. Neither of us know the mind of Trump. But we do know his actions. And my statement is supported by his actions, yours isn't. Nothing about what he actually did in office indicates that he was interested in initiating military conflict. And that is in contrast to EVERY SINGLE PRESIDENT since Carter. Every one of them started a war. Trump didn't.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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17th September 2021, 01:00 PM | #1909 |
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Says who? Woodward? No, even Woodward doesn't claim that. He suggests Milley did, but Milley wasn't the only one present, and Woodward himself wasn't. And Milley isn't making that claim publicly, so there's no confirmation that Woodward is right about what Milley supposedly said. So on what basis do you make that claim?
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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17th September 2021, 01:28 PM | #1910 |
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Maybe because there isn't any.
Oh Puhleese. CNN: Trump's talk of martial law sends White House staffers rushing to the press
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17th September 2021, 01:40 PM | #1911 |
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Then what version of events are being referred to? From this exchange, my post referred exactly to the event being referred to: the Jan. 8th meeting about protocols.
Yes, it was an attempted coup. They wanted to overthrow the elected government (Biden) by stopping the certification and re-instate Trump. You can play word games all you want but it won't wash. |
17th September 2021, 02:06 PM | #1912 |
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Stachyhs is confused about the meanings of the words "principle" and "principal", but is not confused about the events—although it is entirely possible Ziggurat, channeling Kellyanne Conway, is saying "version of events" when he/she means "alternative events".
The link cited by Skeptic Ginger takes us to a news story dated 20 December 2020, which says:
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17th September 2021, 02:08 PM | #1913 |
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Members of his base were learning to pronounce Myanmar and asking Michael Flynn about it, but hey, they didn't want a military coup.
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17th September 2021, 02:20 PM | #1914 |
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Trump on military action when he was campaigning:
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On August 30:
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Why are they "unreliable" 2nd hand accounts? You keep claiming Woodward is not reliable but you keep failing to produce any evidence of this after being requested to do so. The transcript of Milley's phone conversation with Pelosi shows he thought Trump was "crazy". None of the people in the rooms of any of the phone calls or the Jan. 8 protocol meeting have refuted what Woodward and Costa wrote. Neither has Milley. |
17th September 2021, 02:27 PM | #1915 |
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You keep saying that but never give your basis for doing so even when asked.
Why do 'I' trust Woodward? Because his work has a well earned reputation for being well re-searched, well sourced, and credible. He tapes all his interviews to be sure he gets things accurately. If someone or events is being reported/quoted/presented unfairly or incorrectly, they would come out publicly and say so. No one has, including those who were there. |
17th September 2021, 02:28 PM | #1916 |
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Coup
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State Senator Josh Hawley gave his approval directly to the crowd with a fist in the air and later called for Biden to resign. It is alleged (at minimum) that other GOPers helped the rioters (Boebert for one). Just because Trump's attempted coup was a failure doesn't mean it wasn't one. Thankfully for us, Trump only does things half-assed (at best). I'm sure if it were Obama these same people totally would not consider it a coup! |
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Why bother? |
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17th September 2021, 02:31 PM | #1917 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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17th September 2021, 02:34 PM | #1918 |
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No, I am not. I used "principle" correctly and not "principal". That was Lurch.http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post13601891
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17th September 2021, 02:38 PM | #1919 |
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At your link, Lurch correctly called the people in the room "principals." "Principles" can't issue refutations, because they are abstract concepts, not people.
Originally Posted by Lurch
Working with Trump is “like trying to figure out what a child wants” —White House deputy chief of staff Katie Walsh “The White House has become an adult day care center” —Republican senator Bob Corker of Tennessee “Morally unfit to be president,” “unethical” and “untethered to truth” —former FBI director James Comey, who also compared the US president to a mafia boss. “Less a person than a collection of terrible traits” —Trump’s former chief economic adviser Gary Cohn. “Someone who “sucks up and ***** down” —former Fox News chief and confidant Roger Ailes. |
17th September 2021, 02:38 PM | #1920 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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