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15th August 2022, 08:59 AM | #2001 |
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But the issue isn't just the behavior. It's what motivates it. If someone steals your money because he wants money, he's a crook, but he's not crazy. His behavior can be controlled by rational intervention, including the threat of punishment for theft. But if he steals your money because he imagines falsely that you owe it to him, or because he thinks all the money in the world belongs to him, or he thinks a dollar is just a piece of green paper, he's delusional. He's crazy. His behavior is one symptom of a broader, deeper disease that warps his perceptions of reality. Trump appears to believe that he is the center of the world and that he is, quite literally, entitled to have and do anything he wants. He tried to overthrow the government because he thought he was supposed to remain President, in the face of all evidence and the advice of his own closest advisers. That's what makes him especially dangerous.
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15th August 2022, 09:06 AM | #2002 |
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I don't think it would have mattered to the people who voted for him. They wouldn't have understood what it means, or they would have said something like "all politicians have big egos." If the pussy tape didn't put a dent in their devotion, some shrink quoting from the DSM would just be static.
What could have happened is that the Republican establishment, who generally hated Trump, could have blocked his nomination. They could have said "This guy doesn't represent us." But they caved to the cult. |
15th August 2022, 11:03 AM | #2003 |
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15th August 2022, 11:17 AM | #2004 |
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Sure. But the important part is the reality, wouldn't you say? Trump is an ignorant lying buffoon and that's why he shouldn't be President. The cause of that isn't important unless we are talking about the best treatment approaches.
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And let's not forget that "malignant narcissism" isn't really a diagnostic term either, although it is a term used by some professionals as a short-hand for someone with both NPD and ASPD. I would argue that there might be a good argument that we should disqualify people with ASPD from running for office because the traits of that particular disorder, at the very least, result in unethical behavior. Still, I fall back to the idea that it's the behavior that matters, not the label. And Trump's behavior should have disqualified him in the minds of voters. Unfortunately, there is no prohibition against Trump-like behavior and too many people are willing to overlook a lot if they think their agenda stands to benefit. I do think there is a lot of psychology-adjacent material for scholars and professionals to analyze in regards to the rise of "Trumpism" in America and such analysis would be interesting to read. I just think that such analysis should stop short of formal diagnosis of actual people. |
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15th August 2022, 11:20 AM | #2005 |
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This is gonna be hard to put into words and I'm talking to a mentality that I most certainly do NOT prescribe to myself...
... but I think one of the main narratives the Trumpers really got on with is anything that mocks mental illness, more specifically the idea that you don't get held accountable for certain actions because of them. These are people who probably do think the only treatment for depression is to just decide to stop being sad. Like a lot of things that is grotesque and incomprehensible to us, I think it works for him. |
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15th August 2022, 11:48 AM | #2006 |
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I think you are on to something there. In their minds, mental illness is a label people put on things to excuse bad behavior. Because of this outlook, it's also a way to label people as "bad." Depression is choosing to dwell on negative things. ADD is just being lazy. The people calling Trump "dangerously mentally ill?" They are just attacking him because he doesn't fit their mold. They don't want such a smart, successful businessman to shake things up so they put labels on him.
Makes sense. But it also illustrates why it really does no good to put such labels on him; the people who voted for him don't put validity on such labels and the people who didn't vote for him already came to their own conclusions without the need for the label. In fact, the labeling only serves to further the stigma associated with mental illness. |
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15th August 2022, 01:24 PM | #2007 |
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You seem to have a real aversion to calling a spade a spade when it comes to mental health "labels", i.e. "diagnoses". Yes, Trump is an "ignorant, lying buffoon", but that is only a small part of what he is.
Whether formally diagnosed or not, Trump meets the behavioral criteria to be diagnosed as a 'sociopath'...or officially...with ASPD. NPD may or may not be present in a sociopath. With Trump, it most obviously is. He could be the poster boy for NPD.
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Of course the cause of such behavior is important. The cause tells us why he behaves the way he does. Is Trump an "ignorant lying buffoon" because he's just none too bright and self-centered or is it because he's seriously mentally ill? Marjorie Taylor Greene is an "ignorant lying buffoon" but is she mentally ill? What about Lauren Boebert, Louie Gohmert and most of the FOX pundits? His hard core Maga-ites would not have cared, but there were a lot of people who voted for him because they thought he was a successful businessman, were charmed by him, and wanted to give an 'outsider' a chance. But had they known he was a sociopath and what the means, I seriously doubt they would have said "Oh, a sociopath would make a great president!" The fact he lost so dramatically in 2020 is due to fact that many who voted for him in 2016 came to see him for what he is and was: a sociopath who cares for no one and nothing but himself. It's not an official term, but as you say, it's commonly used by even professionals so I see no problem with using it. "Sociopath/psychopath" aren't official diagnoses, either, but they are also commonly used by professionals. I would argue that there is a solid argument for disqualifying people with ASPD from holding public office. But since you hold that a person can only be diagnosed as such if interviewed in-person by a mental health professional, how is that going to be accomplished as people with ASPD often refuse to believe they are mentally ill and would not consent to such an interview? Trump has described himself as a "stable genius" and bragged that his annual medical check-up's mental-acuity test was '“...actually not that easy. But for me it was easy.” Because he could remember five words. The 'label' is a psychiatric diagnosis that identifies the cause of the behavior and can strongly predict what future behavior can be expected. They are very important. Not just "psychology-adjacent material" but professional opinions coming from actual mental health officials qualified to make such a diagnosis.
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15th August 2022, 09:19 PM | #2008 |
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Do you really think that mental illness necessarily disqualifies someone from serving as POTUS? So someone who is depressed, no go? I don’t think you think that. I know you know that this isn’t the case factually. But even in the “in the mind of a reasonable person” sense, I think you think that it depends on several things, chief of which is the actual history and behavior of the candidate. I think a good argument could be made that certain diagnoses, like APD, should be disqualifying. But even then, the actual behavior and history of a candidate with that diagnosis would give plenty of reasons for the public not to elect them. The diagnosis is superfluous; it’s not like people with APD go unnoticed. In any case, mental illness is not disqualifying to run for President. Even IF Trump was diagnosed, nothing would have stopped him from running and he may even still have been elected. We’d have to change the Constitution in order to set that kind of criteria. No point in arguing about whether or not we should do that because the reality of what that would take makes it extremely unlikely. |
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15th August 2022, 11:35 PM | #2009 |
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Depends on the mental illness, doesn't it?
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Sure, he MAY have been elected but a diagnosis of being a sociopath (Ok...ASPD), pathological liar and narcissist sure as hell would have given a hell of a lot of people cause to question what they believed him to be. And that does not entail changing the Constitution. |
16th August 2022, 01:41 AM | #2010 |
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I agree with your underlying points and am not trying to challenge you.
But if we are doing a post mortum on his presidency, I have to ask: when did Trump ever appear charming or engaging? Both those traits require listening to someone else and then responding. If someone else was talking, Trump’s only thought was “when is he going to stop talking because I have so many important and genius-y things to say about myself.” When he and his staff were having daily COVID briefings he actually bragged about his ratings. He thought he was the main draw in these briefings.
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16th August 2022, 12:11 PM | #2011 |
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He actually could appear to be both, especially in his younger years, and when he wants to be. Many people have described him that way including Maggie Haberman in her interview with Dan Rather: “He's quite charming when you deal with him one on one.”
According to Fortune Magazine, when Trump met with "chief executives of Johnson & Johnson (JNJ), Novartis (NVS), Merck (MRK), Eli Lilly (LLY), Celgene (CELG), and Amgen (AMGN) on Jan. 31 was a surprisingly genial host" and the "Donald Trump Is Actually Really Charming in Person". His niece, Mary, wrote in her book "″[W]hen he saw me, he pointed at me with a surprised look on his face, then said, ‘I specifically asked for you to be here.’” “That was the kind of thing he often said to charm people,” Mary writes, “and he had a knack for tailoring his comment to the occasion, which was all the more impressive because I know it wasn’t true.” (She says her uncle then opened his arms and hugged her for the first time in her life.)" Vivica Fox said Trump was "charming" on The Apprentice.
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24th August 2022, 10:32 AM | #2012 |
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I don't know about Trump having a dangerous mental illness, but I submit that he frequently does not behave as a rational person who can sensibly make decisions based on intelligent thinking, rather than emotion.
His childish mishandling of the brouhaha over the classified documents is one case in point. But let me call the readers attention to his recent social media trashing of Mitch McConnell and his wife, Elaine Chao, who he called "crazy"! https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022...ll-elaine-chao I ask if a rational person would, when he needs every friend he can get, publicly insult the senate minority leader, a member of his party and deride that person's wife? This isn't one of Lyndon Johnson's private fits of temper or one of Harry Truman's bourbon induced rants spewed during a poker game with his cronies. These are the painfully public actions of a man who can't calmly act in his own self interest. This is the guy who sat by while a mob came within a hair of hanging his own Vice President. This the guy who committed impeachable and indictable offenses during phone calls he knew dang well where being listened to and recorded. He is not rational. |
24th August 2022, 11:50 AM | #2013 |
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That's an interesting idea, but who would conduct it, and what criteria for fitness would be applied? Most people who think they deserve to be President enough to run would display off-the-charts narcissism. I suspect Trump would do fine in a traditional psychiatric assessment: successful in business; no substance abuse issues; no criminal record; no previous treatment for depression or anything else; oriented to time, place and person; articulate and well-educated; apparently happy marriage and loving children; etc., etc. Trump is -- and, really, most intelligent people are -- clever enough to tell a shrink what he wants to hear, just as a cop candidate is not going to tell a shrink how much he wants to shoot black people. Some psychiatric panel would just be seen as a political weapon.
Then, of course, you have to consider definitions of psychiatric illness. As recently as the '60s, women who weren't happy to be housewives were treated as sick, as were gay people well into the '80s. Maybe anybody who wants to be President could be called crazy. Somebody who calls himself a socialist and wants to restructure the entire government sure would be. A premise of our electoral system is that a lengthy, grueling campaign subjects the candidate to such close scrutiny under stress that character flaws reveal themselves. And they certainly did in the case of Trump. The problem is that the voters didn't care. That's why the whole "but they didn't examine him" business is silly and destructive. Qualified shrinks should be free to assess a candidate's fitness based on his entire history and public record, which in Trump's case goes back more than 50 years. Making the voters pay attention is a different problem. |
24th August 2022, 12:35 PM | #2014 |
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You "don't know about Trump having a dangerous mental illness"? After his actions of Jan. 6, the Big Lie, and his consistent demonstration of meeting the DMS-5 criteria for NPD?
A person must meet five of nine of the following traits for a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. Trump meets all nine. 1. A grandiose sense of self-importance Check 2.Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love Check 3. The belief that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions Check 4. Requires excessive admiration Check 5. Has a sense of entitlement Check 6. Is interpersonally exploitative — takes advantage of others Check 7. Lacks empathy Check 8. Envies others or believes others are envious of him or her Check 9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors and attitudes Check |
24th August 2022, 12:43 PM | #2015 |
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I'm not against the idea that Trump may actually properly be NPD but I would point out that simply knowing that list of nine points isn't sufficient to diagnose. Each one requires training for a proper diagnosis.
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24th August 2022, 12:51 PM | #2016 |
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Sure. The question is how much of that would reveal itself in a traditional psychiatric examination, especially when the subject would likely be coached by his own experts? Psychiatry/psychotherapy are fundamentally oriented to serve people who are troubled and want help. I'm not sure what an exam could accomplish when the subject doesn't want it and has every incentive to circumvent it.
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24th August 2022, 12:56 PM | #2017 |
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As I said upthread if Trump is mentally ill then so is ~40% of the population and true or not that puts in an untenable place.
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24th August 2022, 01:03 PM | #2018 |
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24th August 2022, 01:13 PM | #2019 |
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24th August 2022, 01:59 PM | #2020 |
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A panel of psychiatrists and psychologists approved by a bi-partisan Congressional committee. The doctors would serve for a selected number of years. I'd suggest 10-15 and never chosen during an election year for a president/VP.
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Some conditions, such as chronic depression, are common 'mental illnesses' but can be successfully controlled by medication and pose no threat. What mental conditions are deemed exclusionary to hold the office of POTUS/VP would be detailed.
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1. "successful in business"--not really. He's declared bankruptcy six times for his hotel/casino businesses alone and several others failed: Trump Vodka, Trump University, Trump Airlines, the USFL, Trump-The Game, Trump Magazine, Trump Mortgage, Trump Steaks, GoTrump.com (travel booking), Trump Tower Tampa, Trump Cologne, and more. 2."no substance abuse issues": not necessary for a diagnosis of mental illness. 3. "no criminal record"-- Give that time. But he has also lost or settled out of court several lawsuits. Powerful, rich people tend to get away with crimes that 'regular' people don't. 4. "no previous treatment for depression or anything else"-- people with NPD don't see themselves as needing mental treatment. Remember, Trump has declared himself a 'stable genius' when his behavior has disproven both. 5. "oriented to time, place and person"--not necessary to be diagnosed as mentally ill. 6. "articulate and well-educated"--articulate? Are you kidding? The man has the vocabulary of a fourth-grader: "The analysis assessed the first 30,000 words each president spoke in office, and ranked them on the Flesch-Kincaid grade level scale and more than two dozen other common tests analyzing English-language difficulty levels. Trump clocked in around mid-fourth grade, the worst since Harry Truman, who spoke at nearly a sixth-grade level." "Well -educated"? There is a reason be had all his academic records sealed land threatened to sue any institution that leaked them. His own sister claimed he paid another student to take his SAT tests for him. 7. 'apparently happy marriage and loving children"-- After two previous divorces and children by all three wives. He cheated on all his wives including Melania. "Loving" children? His two eldest sons crave his love and attention so much that they grovel to him. As his niece, the psychologist, said "his relationships are entirely transactional" including those with his children.
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24th August 2022, 03:27 PM | #2021 |
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Okay, I'll bite. Would the panel just rule the candidate "fit" or "unfit?" Or would it present the detailed diagnosis doctors prepare for other doctors? Who would it report to? What would be made public? Even presidential candidates are entitled to some medical privacy, particularly when family members and others might be discussed. Maybe most important, suppose the panelists disagree? Would there be majority and minority opinions? How would the public make sense of that? And would this panel have enforcement authority? Could they prevent someone from running for or being elected President? Could the Congress? Where's the Constitutional authorization for that?
And whutchu mean "bipartisan?" The Congress couldn't even vote for a bipartisan committee to investigate the attack on the Capitol. Bipartisan is a fantasy. The real issue is that party leaders could and should take back some of the power to name or at least screen presidential nominees. The Repub establishment could have prevented Trump's nomination. |
24th August 2022, 04:48 PM | #2022 |
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That Trump meets each one of the nine is supported by numerous examples.
I can't diagnose but many qualified psychiatrists, psychologists, and other mental health officials have, even if having their hand slapped by the APA for not following the Goldwater Rule.
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24th August 2022, 11:04 PM | #2023 |
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Are you expecting me to have all the answers? These things would have to be worked out. After all, many jobs require mental health evaluations but, for some reason, you seem to think it would be impossible for POTUS/VP candidates.
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24th August 2022, 11:25 PM | #2024 |
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He was a producer in name only. "... Trump has no role in the production of the show" according to Variety. He didn't do any actual producing of the show. He showed up in the 'board room' which was in the Trump Tower Hotel and, as he told Larry King in 2004, “I go into the boardroom, I rant and rave like a lunatic to these kids, and I leave and I go off and build my buildings. And then it gets good ratings, and they pay me. I mean, can you believe this?”
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https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trum...-anyone-635698
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25th August 2022, 01:07 AM | #2025 |
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But that’s the key. The panel would ask questions. Candidates who cannot, in stressful and unstressful conditions, suppress their immediate emotional responses but instead follow the advice of trusted experts are very, very unlikely to be fit for the office of president. Hell, you could easily make it multiple choice
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25th August 2022, 06:53 AM | #2026 |
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Even if I accept that it still leaves him as host. But your sources are dubious and you seem to have misread it. They seem to be talking about his role after he left the host position. And you're quoting a single contestant.
Yeah. And a lot of others have called those diagnoses inappropriate or worse. ETA: Geez. I just backed up to read the "previous post" you refer to. It actually says what I just said and you made excuses for why it should be ignored. |
25th August 2022, 07:17 AM | #2027 |
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25th August 2022, 07:28 AM | #2028 |
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25th August 2022, 07:31 AM | #2029 |
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25th August 2022, 07:34 AM | #2030 |
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25th August 2022, 07:38 AM | #2031 |
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I'm not defending Trump by any stretch of the imagination, but this same argument was made against President Obama by his critics. Everyone's academic records are sealed under the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act unless the student gives consent for them to be released to specific people. While Trump may have threatened to sue anyone who leaked his records, that leak would have also been a violation of federal law. |
25th August 2022, 07:42 AM | #2032 |
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//Elephant in the Room//
Saying a bad person has a mental problem is not an attack on people who have a mental problem and manage to not be horrible people. Trump is... all there and you don't have to be a licensed psychiatrist to just notice that. |
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25th August 2022, 10:27 AM | #2033 |
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25th August 2022, 10:56 AM | #2034 |
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The point I was trying to make in this old post below is that, no matter what the doctors say, on a daily basis Donald Trump shows such gawd awful judgement and that one has to question his fitness.
Who takes top secret documents home after leaving the presidency? Who insults Mitch McConnell's wife for no good reason? Who tires to extort campaign dirt from the Ukrainian President on a call everyone is listening in on? |
25th August 2022, 11:21 AM | #2035 |
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The Congress has no role in electing the President except to certify the electoral votes. The President doesn't work for Congress. The Congress would have no authority even to prevent a convicted serial killer from becoming President. The Presidency is unique in our society. For example, the President doesn't need a security clearance to obtain access to the most critical military secrets. The moment he is inaugurated he gets the nuclear codes. There is no mechanism for Congress to do what you are proposing.
What might be possible is for each party to set its own rules for candidates to run in their primaries, which could include a psychiatric assessment. But there would still be questions about who would conduct it, on what basis, reporting to whom, etc. You have a short memory. Congress hasn't been anywhere close to bipartisan since Newt Gingrich became House whip. About 30+ years ago. People who are smarter than me proposed several routes. One would have been to change the rules about who could participate in the debates or receive party money: require release of 10 years of tax returns, for example, or require previous experience as a senator, governor or Congressman. Another might have been for the other leading candidates to divide the state elections among them, so Trump would only have been running against Cruz or Christie or Rubio in any particular state. Trump won primary after primary with a minority of the votes because the majority who didn't want him were divided among as many as 15 other candidates. There might also have been a way to reallocate the delegates held by losing candidates to someone else. Another might have been to restructure the convention to favor an establishment candidate, just as the Dems created "superdelegates" to support Clinton. Another might have been for people like the former President Bushes to say "If this guy is on the ticket, we're supporting the Democrat." After the "pussy" tape came out leaders discussed ways to force Trump off the ticket, but they didn't follow through. Pence might have said "He goes or I go." Trump didn't have to happen. |
25th August 2022, 11:24 AM | #2036 |
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Again all of our rules, our failsafes, our checks and balances were created under the assumption that at no point would enough of society intentionally elect a petulant man-child troll for the sole purpose of burning the whole thing down to tweak the libs.
The whole system was based upon keeping someone who was at worst "insane within normal parameters" from getting too much power or doing too much damage. The system just didn't account for the Trumps and Boebarts of the world because it naively assumed they would never be let into the system on our worse day. |
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25th August 2022, 11:33 AM | #2037 |
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Trump is a veteran entertainer and performer, and by numerous accounts he is charming in person. I continue to contend that he would know what to say to pass a psychiatric interview. Hell, his White House physician Ronny Jackson was not only a board-certified doctor who had also served Obama and Bush, he was a Navy admiral who had served in Iraq. But Trump bent him around his fat little finger.
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25th August 2022, 11:50 AM | #2038 |
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25th August 2022, 12:07 PM | #2039 |
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25th August 2022, 12:13 PM | #2040 |
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Actually, please explain. You don't think she has at least as much information as would be gained during a psychiatric interview, or you think she knows too much, or you think observing him in real-life circumstances isn't what shrinks are supposed to do, or what? Hers is one well-educated opinion among many.
Of course, the fact that he robbed her of tens of millions of dollars could be a factor to consider. |
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