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Old 23rd November 2017, 01:44 PM   #41
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Quote:
Family members of the 44 sailors aboard a missing Argentine sub were told that their loved ones were believed to be dead, one of the family members told ABC News on Thursday.

The news came as Argentine naval officials said that a sound detected during the desperate search for the sub, which vanished last week in the southern Atlantic Ocean, was consistent with an explosion.

According to the Argentine navy officials, the sound, described as "consistent with a nonnuclear explosion" that was "abnormal, singular, short, violent" was detected three hours after the last known communication.

The sound, which originated about 270 miles east of the Gulf of San Jorge in the southern part of the country, was picked up by U.S. sensors and international agencies that are capable of detecting nuclear explosions.

According to the officials, the noise's source is in an area with a radius of 77 miles and possible depths of 650 to 10,000 feet.
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/aboard-mis...opstories.html
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Old 23rd November 2017, 02:02 PM   #42
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So the sound could have been the hull imploding
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Old 23rd November 2017, 04:31 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So the sound could have been the hull imploding
That, unfortunately, appears to be the implication.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 04:39 PM   #44
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The blessing of that is that they would have avoided the nightmare of asphyxiating slowly in the cold and dark over the course of a week or more.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 05:03 PM   #45
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Double post - sorry.

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Old 23rd November 2017, 08:04 PM   #46
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Is it normal for a military sub to be covered with barnacles as seen in at least one of the photos? I don't know when the photo was taken but I wonder if it's an indication of how the vessel was maintained.

Very sad ending.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 09:24 PM   #47
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I heard a poor grieving relative use the wonderful expression "son of a thousand bitches."
I may well borrow that..

Those poor families
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Old 23rd November 2017, 10:27 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
If they were holding their breath at 1 bar at a depth of 100m then their chests would get crushed instantly by the pressure.
I don't know where you got that idea from.
Freediver Herbert NitschWP currently holds the world record at 214m.

If the period of flooding an escape airlock is sufficiently short (the airlocks are single-man and small for this reason) bends would not develop, since they have not been breathing air at pressure for long enough.
A controlled ascent, called 'blow and go', is entirely possible. A quick Google seems to indicate that this type of escape may be possible up to 180m down.
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Old 24th November 2017, 12:03 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
I don't know where you got that idea from.
Freediver Herbert NitschWP currently holds the world record at 214m.

If the period of flooding an escape airlock is sufficiently short (the airlocks are single-man and small for this reason) bends would not develop, since they have not been breathing air at pressure for long enough.
A controlled ascent, called 'blow and go', is entirely possible. A quick Google seems to indicate that this type of escape may be possible up to 180m down.
I stand corrected, but still hold that without a huge amount of specialist training and experience, escape attempts from that depth would result in fatality.
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Old 24th November 2017, 03:50 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Is it normal for a military sub to be covered with barnacles as seen in at least one of the photos? I don't know when the photo was taken but I wonder if it's an indication of how the vessel was maintained.

Very sad ending.
No properly maintained ship should be covered in barnacles especially not a warship, doubly so for a sub.

A modern anti fouling paint is good for five or six years then it's in to drydock for a scrape and repaint.

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Old 24th November 2017, 04:07 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
I stand corrected, but still hold that without a huge amount of specialist training and experience, escape attempts from that depth would result in fatality.
Yes. There's a bit of a difference between a world record holding free diver and a scared (possibly injured) matelot.
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Old 24th November 2017, 04:53 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
No properly maintained ship should be covered in barnacles especially not a warship, doubly so for a sub.

A modern anti fouling paint is good for five or six years then it's in to drydock for a scrape and repaint.
The Argentine armed forces have had a history of poor maintenance in recent years. They had a ship sink at dock after being cannibalised for spares a few years ago and the air force hasn't fared much better. I'd hope that poor maintenance practices didn't lead to the accident but it wouldn't surprise me at all.
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Old 24th November 2017, 04:56 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
Yes. There's a bit of a difference between a world record holding free diver and a scared (possibly injured) matelot.
One of which is that the submariner would only have to hold his breath for well under half the time the free diver did, being as he starts at the bottom, rather than having to swim down there first.
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Old 24th November 2017, 08:05 AM   #54
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Pressure in the lock has to be equalised with the outside water before it can be opened. Pressure in the lungs will be the same as the water. If the sub is below 40m there can be problems with nitrogen narcosis, bends and even oxygen narcosis. Plus any carbon monoxide or CO2 in the air will be at increased partial pressure and can disable or kill the diver at pressures below 40m

Carbon Monoxide in very small parts per million that is safe at the surface can become dangerous when at pressure.
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Old 24th November 2017, 08:37 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Pressure in the lock has to be equalised with the outside water before it can be opened. Pressure in the lungs will be the same as the water. If the sub is below 40m there can be problems with nitrogen narcosis, bends and even oxygen narcosis. Plus any carbon monoxide or CO2 in the air will be at increased partial pressure and can disable or kill the diver at pressures below 40m

Carbon Monoxide in very small parts per million that is safe at the surface can become dangerous when at pressure.
There should be a table somewhere that lists how long you have to breath at what pressure to be at risk.
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Old 24th November 2017, 08:50 AM   #56
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I'm sad and frustrated that my submariner friend died suddenly this year. I'd be asking him questions.
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Old 24th November 2017, 09:06 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
The Argentine armed forces have had a history of poor maintenance in recent years. They had a ship sink at dock after being cannibalised for spares a few years ago and the air force hasn't fared much better. I'd hope that poor maintenance practices didn't lead to the accident but it wouldn't surprise me at all.
For the record, ARA Santísima Trinidad, a British designed Type 42 area air defense destroyer had been laid up since 2004. The British had of course cut off the supply of spare parts and technical assistance 2 decades earlier and after laying up she became a spare parts hulk for her sister Hercules which was refitted to become a commando assault ship by removing most of her British weapons and equipment.

ARA Santísima Trinidad languished at her moorings for the next 9 years until January 27, 2013 when she was found semi capsized.

http://www.pulsamerica.co.uk/wp-cont...21_0167_14.jpg

Since there was apparently never any plan to return her to active service I can certainly see a lack of maintenance being the culprit here.
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Old 24th November 2017, 09:38 AM   #58
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Former submariner, Los Angeles class.

Bubblehead, so I didn't do the escape hatch training a Groton.

Two escape trunks with two hatches each, the way I understood it, you enter the hatch from below and close the bottom hatch, equalize pressure with the outside by opening a valve, open the upper hatch and escape. You wear a Steinke hood which has a hood which holds some air.

Supposedly there is little danger of bends as you are not exposed to the high pressure for more than a few minutes, but other injuries are likely, burst eardrums as I recall, or lung damage from holding your breath.

As I recall, flooding the escape hatch pressurizes the air already there and you keep some in the Steinke hood, not that you need it, once pressurized and in your lungs, you only need to breath out on the way up.
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Old 24th November 2017, 09:42 AM   #59
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Nitrogen narcosis can hit very quickly. It's not the ascent that gets you it's the pressurising.
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Old 24th November 2017, 09:49 AM   #60
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Nitrogen narcosis: So submarines don't make their own air and exclude or diminish nitrogen?
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Old 24th November 2017, 10:03 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Nitrogen narcosis: So submarines don't make their own air and exclude or diminish nitrogen?
It is caused by the anesthetic effect of Nitrogen when it is at higher pressure. It causes effects similar to drunkenness.
It can occur in shallow dives but really starts to kick in below 30m.
It can be gradual or come on suddenly. Technical divers are trained to recognise they symptoms.
To try and delay it's effects and also reduce the nitrogen loading of the blood and tissues to reduce the risk of bends (bubbles of disolved nitrogen coming out of solution in the tissues and bloodstream) gas mixtures such as Nitrox (increased oxygen air) and various Heliox and Trimix gasses are used. Heliox is a mixture of helium and oxygen. Trimix is a variable mix of helium, nitrogen and oxygen
Helium is used to replace nitrogen as it isn't soluble in the blood stream.
As the depth increases less oxygen is mixed as it becomes toxic above certain pressures and concentrations. At extreme depth the gas mixture doesn't have enough oxygen in it to support life at normal atmospheric pressure.
Normal recreational divers using Scuba are limited to 30m depth for all the above reasons.
Submarines operate at normal atmospheric pressure inside the hull.
When they are stuck deep on the sea bed to get out the escape chamber has to allow water in which will compress any air and start to cause narcosis, oxygen toxicity and bends issues.
As well as increasing the partial pressure of CO2 and Carbon Monoxide which also have their own effects. CO being the nasty one, it only needs parts per million to be fatal below 30 metres.
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Old 24th November 2017, 10:06 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Nitrogen narcosis: So submarines don't make their own air and exclude or diminish nitrogen?
They make their own oxygen and remove CO and CO2 and carry plenty of compressed air.

And monitor the air to make sure it's all within limits.

Nitrogen narcosis or Davey Jones Locker?

I'll take the buzz, it will cure itself once on the surface.
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Old 24th November 2017, 10:28 AM   #63
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The best I have found is at 600 feet, tests have identified 20 seconds of pressurization, 3 seconds of full pressure, and ascent at 8 ft per second is safe. I don't know how many seconds to unsafe.
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Old 24th November 2017, 11:47 AM   #64
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recreational divers are trained to ascend no faster than 30 feet per minute, one foot every two seconds. The rate was 60 feet per minute up until the 90s but that is seen as excessive now, the US Navy changed to 30 in the mid 90s and all the various training agencies followed suit. The US Navy Manual of Diving is the standard work used as a reference throughout the world, it is constantly revised.
A good rule of thumb in an emergency is to ascend at the same speed as fine bubbles bearing in mind this is still very fast.

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Old 24th November 2017, 11:58 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
recreational divers are trained to ascend no faster than 30 feet per minute, one foot every two seconds. The rate was 60 feet per minute up until the 90s but that is seen as excessive now, the US Navy changed to 30 in the mid 90s and all the various training agencies followed suit. The US Navy Manual of Diving is the standard work used as a reference throughout the world, it is constantly revised.
A good rule of thumb in an emergency is to ascend at the same speed as fine bubbles bearing in mind this is still very fast.
But that assumes breathing pressurized air for minutes at a time.
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Old 26th November 2017, 04:50 PM   #66
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Not much but, something:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/argentine...213316415.html

Quote:
On November 26, search and rescue crews prepared control systems for the US Navy’s deep sea vehicle to be deployed in the hunt for the Argentine Navy submarine ARA San Juan, missing since November 15.
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:23 AM   #67
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The Argentine Navy is now saying water entered the subs snorkel while it was recharging batteries submerged, causing a fire in one of the battery banks. They were then ordered back to port and continued to sail submerged. Then they lost contact and an underwater explosion was recorded near the subs last known position.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-unders...194653532.html

I am curious why the did not proceed back to base on the surface other than the boat was faster when travelling underwater.
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Old 28th November 2017, 10:42 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
The Argentine Navy is now saying water entered the subs snorkel while it was recharging batteries submerged, causing a fire in one of the battery banks. They were then ordered back to port and continued to sail submerged. Then they lost contact and an underwater explosion was recorded near the subs last known position.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-unders...194653532.html

I am curious why the did not proceed back to base on the surface other than the boat was faster when travelling underwater.
IIRC the seas were very rough, that may also have been a factor in the decision to submerge.
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Old 29th November 2017, 05:47 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IIRC the seas were very rough, that may also have been a factor in the decision to submerge.
Reports seem to indicate they were already submerged charging their batteries. This looks like a case where they didn't act fast enough or conditions prevented them from surfacing before flooding prevented them from doing so.
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