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 International Skeptics Forum On the Physical Reality of Black Holes

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 Tags astronomy , astrophysics , black holes , cosmology , general relativity , physics

 25th April 2009, 02:52 PM #1 Tim Thompson Muse     Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 969 On the Physical Reality of Black Holes A lot of people don't seem to like the idea of black holes. Understandable if you happen to run into one, but not if you simply wish to challenge the general validity of the idea. But whether you like the idea or not, it seems only reasonable that one should actually know what a black hole is before deciding, one way or the other. So I steal the following comment from the overcrowded "Lambda cosmology" thread to illustrate the point. Originally Posted by Zeuzzz A black hole has zero volume and infinite density, creating what is known as a singularity. The "zero volume" and "infinite density" part applies only to the singularity itself, but the black hole is a considerably more complicated thing which enjoys a volume considerably larger than zero, and a density of finite value. The word singularity is a term from mathematics and describes a point, or locus of points, where a given equation is undefined. The ratio 1/0, for instance, is not equal to infinity, but is rather undefined because you simply cannot do it, the arithmetic operation does not exist at all. However, the limit of the ratio 1/x as x approaches 0 is infinity. There is a distinct difference & important between the two ideas, which is left as an exercise for the reader to figure out. So we say that the equation 1/x = is singular if x=0. The key is the singularity is a mathematical artifact and not a physical object. The singularity is not as such expected to exist, but rather to indicate that the singular equation needs to be replaced with one that is not singular, either from the same or a different theory, if one is to physically describe events at the singular points in spacetime (the points which are singular in one equation need not be singular in another; 1/x = y is singular if x=0, but x2=y is not singular for any non-infinite value of x). Viewed from the outside, the singularity is hidden behind an event horizon so it cannot be seen. Once inside the event horizon, the geometry is such that all existing spacetime trajectories terminate at the singularity. What happens than is, of course, equally undefined. So let us ask the question: Do black holes actually exist? How can we tell, by observation, one way or the other? The answer is to look for the event horizon. All compact astrophysical objects, except black holes, have a hard compact surface. Most of the objects that appear massive enough to be candidate black holes are accompanied by an accretion disk of infalling material which becomes extremely hot, and is easily visible to astronomers in X-rays. If the hot matter hits a hard surface, it will flare in a manner that indicates the presence of a hard surface. On the other hand, if the hot matter falls into a black hole it simply disappears with no appreciable fanfare. Hence, we should be able to observationally distinguish between the presence or absence of the unique event horizon of the black hole by its flaring behavior. We also know that any hard hot surface will emit thermal X-rays, whereas a black hole event horizon will have no detectable thermal emission. So we should be able to distinguish between a "normal" compact object (such as a neutron star or exotic quark star & etc.) and an event horizon by the presence or absence of a thermal component in X-rays. These have been done and observations now positively indicates the presence of event horizons. See, for examples Paul, et al., 1998; Done & Gierliński, 2003; Narayan, 2003; McClintock, Narayan & Rybicki, 2004; Remillard, et al., 2006. All of you who have your own alternative ideas in cosmology or relativity, and those of you who insist that black holes are just artifacts of some kind, and not physically real have a new problem. Observational evidence strongly supports the presence of event horizons, and only black holes are known to be associated with such things. So in order to argue that black holes are not physically real, you have to deal not only with the mathematics of general relativity (i.e., read Chandrasekhar's Mathematical Theory of Black Holes and prove he is wrong), but also with a small but growing mountain of observational evidence. Black holes are physically real and they are not going away any time soon.
 25th April 2009, 04:21 PM #2 ben m Philosopher   Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 6,387 Originally Posted by Tim Thompson Observational evidence strongly supports the presence of event horizons, and only black holes are known to be associated with such things. Hi Tim, I agree with your general approach, but I wish to note that these observations are not as cut-and-dried as you make them sound. It's absolutely true that these x-ray data are consistent with models of the x-ray emission from black hole accretion disks, and inconsistent with models of a neutron star accretion disk + surface. However, accretion disk modeling is extremely complex and messy, with multiple components (a disk with some vertical temperature, density, and opacity profile, some inner edge, some corona, some illumination of the outer disk by corona photons, etc.). If you're putting in a surface, then you get an additional surface, atmosphere, corona, etc., and more magnetic fields. In short, if a crackpot came along and insisted that the papers you cite do not rule out his model, even though his model has thus-and-such surface and thus-and-such oddity ... well, it may be possible to argue with this particular crackpot model, but I wouldn't dare say that event horizons "have been observed" and call that the end of the argument. Just FYI.
 25th April 2009, 05:03 PM #3 sol invictus Philosopher     Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 8,613 The evidence that Sagittarius A* is a super massive black hole is pretty strong. Astronomers have imaged the full orbits of stars around it (from which they can infer its mass), and within a few years it should be possible to image the object itself down to scales smaller than its horizon. Last edited by sol invictus; 25th April 2009 at 05:05 PM.
 25th April 2009, 07:40 PM #4 Vorpal Extrapolate!   Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,104 Originally Posted by Tim Thompson Originally Posted by Zeuzzz A black hole has zero volume and infinite density, creating what is known as a singularity. The "zero volume" and "infinite density" part applies only to the singularity itself, but the black hole is a considerably more complicated thing which enjoys a volume considerably larger than zero, and a density of finite value. In fact so considerably larger than zero, that it's effectively infinite. An idealized black hole (e.g., Schwarzschild) has a literally infinite spatial volume. As a minor side issue, I don't see in what sense the singularity can be meaningfully ascribed any volume at all, even zero volume (a distinction analogous to the difference between having zero measure and having no measure in mathematics). This kind of curvature singularity is not something like a tip of a cone, which we can still treat as geometrical point even if the curvature is not defined there. __________________ For every philosopher, there exists an equal and opposite philosopher. They're both wrong.
 26th April 2009, 01:12 AM #5 twistor59 Student   Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 30 From a purely mathematical standpoint, I don't think there's anything distasteful about an event horizon, so I would think it's quite OK for things with event horizons to exist. Singularities, however, are extremely unwelcome, and where they occur, I would say our mathematical modelling of physics has failed, so we need to improve the models.
 26th April 2009, 02:32 AM #6 Lennart Hyland Muse     Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 551 Just a little question, how long can a black hole exist? I wonder how long its lifetime is. __________________ L.H 1919 - 1993 R.I.P Unfortunately the 911truth movement web site does not allow any opinions contrary to their own, or I would have presented my views. David Scott - CTBUH Chairman
 26th April 2009, 03:27 AM #7 Reality Check Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,524 Originally Posted by Lennart Hyland Just a little question, how long can a black hole exist? I wonder how long its lifetime is. The mass (and so lifetime) of a black hole is a balance between the incoming mass & radiation and their Hawking radiation. With the current cosmic background microwave this means that only black holes with a mass of less than that of the Moon can loss mass. All of the black holes that we have observed so far are stellar sized or greater. So black holes exist until they are not replenished by the outside universe and begin to evaporate. When and if that happens depends on what happens to the universe - Future of an expanding universe. A reasonable estimate is the that lifetime of a stellar sized black hole is ~1066 years and for a super-massive black hole ~10100 years. __________________ NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist!
 26th April 2009, 03:27 AM #8 KoihimeNakamura Creativity Murderer     Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: In 2.5 million spinning tons of metal, above Epsilion Eridani III Posts: 7,958 Black holes last a period of time proportional to their mass. __________________ Don't mind me.
 26th April 2009, 03:38 AM #9 Lennart Hyland Muse     Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 551 Thank you both for your answers! __________________ L.H 1919 - 1993 R.I.P Unfortunately the 911truth movement web site does not allow any opinions contrary to their own, or I would have presented my views. David Scott - CTBUH Chairman
 26th April 2009, 06:44 AM #10 edd Master Poster     Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,120 Originally Posted by Rika Black holes last a period of time proportional to their mass. No, the time for a hole to decay through Hawking radiation is proportional to mass3.
 26th July 2017, 03:45 PM #12 Reality Check Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,524 A recent paper on the issue of whether black holes have event horizons. Stellar disruption events support the existence of the black hole event horizon by Wenbin Lu, Pawan Kumar, Ramesh Narayan. The authors looked at supermassive black holes and the light expected from stars colliding with a hypothetical surface. This would be like a stretched out supernova with light shining for months, perhaps even years. Described at Starts With a Bang: Nothing escapes from a black hole, and now astronomers have proof Quote: According to Wenbin Lu, a scientist who studied these observations to test the hard-surface theory,Given the rate of stars falling onto black holes and the number density of black holes in the nearby universe, we calculated how many such transients Pan-STARRS should have detected over a period of operation of 3.5 years. It turns out it should have detected more than 10 of them, if the hard-surface theory is true.Given all the black holes with masses greater than 100 million solar masses, there should have been a definitive signature if there’s a hard surface outside of the black hole’s event horizon. Yet no signature at all was seen. __________________ NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist!
 26th July 2017, 05:03 PM #13 ceptimus puzzler   Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 5,610 There's also the gravitational wave evidence when two mutually orbiting black holes coalesce.
 26th July 2017, 05:21 PM #14 fuelair Cythraul Enfys     Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 57,990 Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura Black holes last a period of time proportional to their mass. Well said and it precludes my needing to note it (which is why I was checking posts here!!!)!! __________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
 26th July 2017, 06:14 PM #15 Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 41,611 Originally Posted by Tim Thompson Assuming that Hawking Radiation is a real phenomenon, then the lifetime (L) of a black hole, in seconds, works out to ... L = M3/1.194x1016 where M is the mass in kilograms. By this formula the lifetime of a solar mass black hole is about 2x1067 years, assuming that the black hole losses mass as Hawking radiation. Of course, real black holes are constantly accreting new mass, so the clock is not yet ticking on black holes. In fact, they won't just accrete mass by sucking up matter either. As long as the CMB is higher temperature than the black hole, then they will gain more mass from sucking up photons than they will lose from Hawking radiation. A solar mass black hole has a temperature of around 1x10-7 Kelvin (heavier ones even lower), while the CMB is about 2.7 Kelvin, so the universe will have to expand and cool quite a bit before even a stellar mass black hole (let alone a supermassive one, which would be even colder) will start to lose any mass. Then again, with a lifetime on the order of 2x1067 years, the time it takes the universe to cool might not be that significant to it. __________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
 18th March 2018, 07:19 PM #16 Reality Check Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,524 __________________ NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist!
 19th March 2018, 07:49 AM #17 HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 14,444 Ben M already nailed it, but basically I would refrain from saying that an event horizon has been observed for any particular black hole. What we can say is that it's not a neutron star of that mass, that is to say, something where the surface is sufficiently outside the Schwarzschild radius for such an observation to be even possible. We can also say that GR still works outside the Schwarzschild radius, which I suppose is a relief, but not unexpected. GR is kinda like the Energizer bunny. It just keeps working. But things get a bit less clear cut when you get close to the Schwarzschild radius. I'm talking Planck length distance, and I'm not aware of any observations that would directly confirm what happens there. Not the least becaue of the insane redshift of any photons on the way out, and it all being drowned in the signal from the accretion disk. E.g., I don't think there is any observation that directly confirms that all the matter is behind the event horizon, and it isn't, say, a gravastar. __________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
 19th March 2018, 09:58 AM #18 jonesdave116 Illuminator     Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 3,075 Originally Posted by HansMustermann Ben M already nailed it, but basically I would refrain from saying that an event horizon has been observed for any particular black hole. Not yet. However, I believe the data is in. We just have to wait for it to be analysed and published. Could be one of the biggest science news stories of the year [/UNDERSTATEMENT], if they find what they're looking for. http://eventhorizontelescope.org/blo...cember-15-2017 __________________ “There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
 19th March 2018, 10:12 AM #19 Pixie of key Master Poster   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,045 There is black star which emit black light. Center of every galaxys is supermassive concentrations which emit dark matter which have a nature of stars and of course nature of visible matter. So, galaxys born inside to outside and it is something what we can proof with James Webb Telescope. . __________________ http://www.onesimpleprinciple.com/l4 "Math without words is meaningless. Words without math can have meaning." by Maartenn100
 19th March 2018, 10:16 AM #20 jonesdave116 Illuminator     Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 3,075 Quote: So, galaxys born inside to outside and it is something what we can proof with James Webb Telescope. Sounds like LaViolette's nonsense. __________________ “There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
 19th March 2018, 10:31 AM #21 Pixie of key Master Poster   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,045 Originally Posted by jonesdave116 Sounds like LaViolette's nonsense. Well, expanding space is nonsense. Not even naked empire. Expanding nucleus of atoms which recycling expanding pushing force which have also nature of expanding light which moving faster and faster same way what matter and light expanding is something what you can explain with words and visually way. . __________________ http://www.onesimpleprinciple.com/l4 "Math without words is meaningless. Words without math can have meaning." by Maartenn100
 19th March 2018, 12:14 PM #22 HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 14,444 Originally Posted by jonesdave116 Not yet. However, I believe the data is in. We just have to wait for it to be analysed and published. Could be one of the biggest science news stories of the year [/UNDERSTATEMENT], if they find what they're looking for. http://eventhorizontelescope.org/blo...cember-15-2017 Well, I certainly hope we learn something new from there. We'll just have to wait and see what, though. __________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
 19th March 2018, 12:16 PM #23 HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 14,444 @Pixie: Wait, wait, did you just in all seriousness proposed that something emits dark? As in, taking seriously the old "Dark Sucker Theory" joke? __________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
 19th March 2018, 01:24 PM #24 Pixie of key Master Poster   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,045 Originally Posted by HansMustermann @Pixie: Wait, wait, did you just in all seriousness proposed that something emits dark? As in, taking seriously the old "Dark Sucker Theory" joke? Well, there is so density pushing force particles that our machine cant register this particles. Well, this very density pushing force particles emit dark light and thats why our machine cant register this very density pushing force paticles / densers. Dark matter with pulling force is joke. . __________________ http://www.onesimpleprinciple.com/l4 "Math without words is meaningless. Words without math can have meaning." by Maartenn100
 19th March 2018, 01:29 PM #25 MikeG Now. Do it now.     Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 24,506 Originally Posted by Pixie of key There is black star which emit black light...... Got any evidence? Something with some maths in it. __________________ "The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
 19th March 2018, 01:46 PM #26 Pixie of key Master Poster   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,045 Originally Posted by Pixie of key There is black star which emit black light. Center of every galaxys is supermassive concentrations which emit dark matter which have a nature of stars and of course nature of visible matter. So, galaxys born inside to outside and it is something what we can proof with James Webb Telescope. . There is Some evidence already. Scientists detect radio echoes of a black hole feeding on a star https://m.phys.org/news/2018-03-scie...lack-hole.html "We know that the radio waves are coming from really energetic electrons that are moving in a magnetic field—that is a well-established process," Pasham says. "The debate has been, where are these really energetic electrons coming from?" Some scientists propose that, in the moments after the stellar explosion, a shockwave propagates outward and energizes the plasma particles in the surrounding medium, in a process that in turn emits radio waves. In such a scenario, the pattern of emitted radio waves would look radically different from the pattern of X-rays produced from infalling stellar debris. "What we found basically challenges this paradigm," Pasham says." 😀 __________________ http://www.onesimpleprinciple.com/l4 "Math without words is meaningless. Words without math can have meaning." by Maartenn100
 19th March 2018, 05:49 PM #28 HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 14,444 No no no, he's not saying they emit dark matter. In fact, he's denying dark matter. He's saying they emit actual dark. Without the matter part. Well, in his words "black light". As in, actual black photons. Let's not do a strawman by trying to read a sane version of it __________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
 19th March 2018, 06:22 PM #29 Reality Check Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,524 Originally Posted by HansMustermann No no no, he's not saying they emit dark matter. In fact, he's denying dark matter. He has 2 stories: "There is black star which emit black light." "Center of every galaxys is supermassive concentrations which emit dark matter..." "There is Some evidence already" links to a supermassive black hole science article thus the context is his second claim. I suspect that "black star" is his translation from Finnish of (stellar) black hole. The part of "Dark matter with pulling force" he denies is actually the fact that gravity pulls. In his world, no force at all can pull and so both dark and normal matter push. Ditto for a child pulling a toy with a string. Ditto for two unlike charges attracting. etc. There is no sane version of his clams and so we should not derail this thread. __________________ NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! Last edited by Reality Check; 19th March 2018 at 06:24 PM.
 19th March 2018, 10:59 PM #30 Pixie of key Master Poster   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,045 The universe is eternal. The visible universe has a beginning which is based on eternal motion. Motion is eternal. Motion = energy. Motion = pushing force. Eternal circulation is based only on pushing force which is motion. Therefore pulling force/arching space does not exist. Thus the motion/energy of which the visible universe was born existed yet before the visible universe came into existence out of it. In the eternal and infinite space there are extremely dense and massive objects that are very far away from each other. All of them are located far outside the visible universe and the expanding visible universe protrudes away from one such object. Thereby the expanding condensations absorb motion originally from other similar objects to themselves. This is the matter of motion/energy i.e. remains of very old detectable kind of universes. These extremely dense and massive objects recycle the eternal motion/energy among each other and during this action there are detectable kinds of galaxies born out of the extremely dense motion/energy that is directed away from those very objects. If there were no remains of the old universes that still have areas of different densities protruding in the contrary direction no detectable kind of visible universe could ever be born. First the supermassive objects in the centers of galaxies are born out of zillions of individual condensations that expand and recycle the expanding motion/energy among each other. The external motion/energy protruding towards gets the expansion of these objects to accelerate very strongly at the same time. As a result there is suddenly an extremely great pressure in the center of a large area with no gravitational force at all. Now there is outward expanding motion/energy being pressed from the center of this area out of which new expanding stars come to existence by the aid of the external motion/energy in a similar manner. Also new detectable kind of matter is born consisting of the cores of expanding atoms that recycle among each other the expanding motion/energy with a nature of expanding light. In this case the external motion originates from a supermassive object in another galaxy’s center that also expands in a manner that expanding motion/energy protrudes outward of it. This expanding motion/energy has the nature of expanding cores of atoms and thus it also has the nature of expanding stars. http://www.onesimpleprinciple.com/ . __________________ http://www.onesimpleprinciple.com/l4 "Math without words is meaningless. Words without math can have meaning." by Maartenn100
 19th March 2018, 11:32 PM #31 HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 14,444 Originally Posted by Reality Check He has 2 stories: "There is black star which emit black light." "Center of every galaxys is supermassive concentrations which emit dark matter..." The difference is that you read the supermassive concentrations as a black hole too (which is what I called the sane version), while I don't think he makes that connection. That said, yeah, after his longer message I remember why I avoided his threads. I think my brain was trying to dig its way out through an ear when I was reading that. __________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
 20th March 2018, 01:22 PM #32 Reality Check Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,524 Originally Posted by HansMustermann The difference is that you read the supermassive concentrations as a black hole too (which is what I called the sane version), while I don't think he makes that connection. He makes the connection here and in his other thread. He is watching the news from phys.org. Just about every time a supermassive black hole is mentioned up comes a "supermassive concentrations" post in that thread. He even connects cyclones on Jupiter to "galaxy center supermassive concentration"! __________________ NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist!
 20th March 2018, 04:48 PM #33 HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 14,444 Originally Posted by Reality Check He makes the connection here and in his other thread. He is watching the news from phys.org. Just about every time a supermassive black hole is mentioned up comes a "supermassive concentrations" post in that thread. He even connects cyclones on Jupiter to "galaxy center supermassive concentration"! And there you go in his answer above. The "supermassive concentrations" in his "model" are pushing stuff away, not being attractors like our black holes. It's all over the place, really. __________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
 20th March 2018, 07:02 PM #34 Reality Check Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,524 Originally Posted by HansMustermann And there you go in his answer above. The "supermassive concentrations" in his "model" are pushing stuff away, not being attractors like our black holes. It's all over the place, really. I agree. On the one hand he really wants to connect to real supermassive black holes in science but he is unable to release his denial of all pulling forces that make them physically possible. He has not thought about answering a basic question of how can they exist if all of the matter in them is being pushed apart by every force? N.B. he denies curvature of spacetime that prevents matter from escaping a black hole. __________________ NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist!
 20th March 2018, 10:03 PM #35 Pixie of key Master Poster   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,045 Originally Posted by Reality Check He makes the connection here and in his other thread. He is watching the news from phys.org. Just about every time a supermassive black hole is mentioned up comes a "supermassive concentrations" post in that thread. He even connects cyclones on Jupiter to "galaxy center supermassive concentration"! Yes, i make a connection with Jupiter red spot and galaxy center supermassive concentration because there is connection with this system. Observations show that the stars are moving too fast on the outer circumference of the galaxies. they should protrude away from the center of the galaxy, according to their habits. really the stars are projecting out of the supermassive object of the galaxy center that pushes them away from the center of the galaxy. This is not noticeable because the stars and all the substance expand in the same proportion. so there is a pushing force that maintains Jupiter's big red spot. it is pushed inside Jupiter all the time. It is from the Sun. and also the supermassive object of the galaxy center. Jupiter is in the area between the Sun and the galaxy center. then those pushing forces will encounter a counterbalance and thus release a powerful push that pushes Jupiter strongly away from the center of the galaxy. And it makes the center of Jupiter's center expand more intensively. therefore a faster expanding matter is pushed toward the surface of Jupiter. it maintains Jupiter's big red spot. Not bad, you know 😀 __________________ http://www.onesimpleprinciple.com/l4 "Math without words is meaningless. Words without math can have meaning." by Maartenn100
 20th March 2018, 10:14 PM #36 Pixie of key Master Poster   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,045 "Iagree. On the one hand he really wants to connect to real supermassive black holes in science but he is unable to release his denial of all pulling forces that make them physically possible" The birth of each supermassive item is like a small "big Bang" out of space in an already existing space. Extremely dense pushing / bursting force. Very small and dense recessions are needed that will recycle the pushing force. Then one supermassive object will emerge as they begin to expand one by two in an explosive manner. There is a very high pressure on the center of a new supermassive object. Without the pulling force. And then supermassive concentration just expanding and emit expanding dark matter which have sometimes possibility expanding very fast when can born new expanding stars same way what supermassive concentrations born. Forget stupid pulling force and stupid curving space. . __________________ http://www.onesimpleprinciple.com/l4 "Math without words is meaningless. Words without math can have meaning." by Maartenn100
 21st March 2018, 12:13 AM #37 MikeG Now. Do it now.     Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 24,506 This is the science forum, PoK. You've already said explicitly that you haven't got any science (or maths) backing up any of your absurd claims. Take your childish nonsense over to the humour section where it belongs. __________________ "The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
 21st March 2018, 12:29 AM #38 Pixie of key Master Poster   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,045 Originally Posted by MikeG This is the science forum, PoK. You've already said explicitly that you haven't got any science (or maths) backing up any of your absurd claims. Take your childish nonsense over to the humour section where it belongs. Here is a scientific claim to you. an argument that can be scientifically examined. if it exists physically, it takes space in space. it can be compressed with a dense pushing force. but not infinitely dense. it splits / expands less dense because of its own internal pressure. that is, pushing force. it is the driving force itself. its place from space can not be if it does not push it from the space of space. the question is. What is the driving force? It can not be anything physically concrete in existence. as the substance is pushing force. you are a pushing force. as you move, you push the air out of the space where you are. Your body's substance can not have the pulling force. no physically concrete existence can not have the pulling force. the force is not separate from the substance. the substance is power. it is a pushing force. Lets try to tell something about pulling force with graviton. I think you dont try, becsuse you know pulling force with particle is handwaving. What about pulling force with curving space? Lets tell something about curving space. Explain curving space with words or visually way. But hey, no any analogy. Something concrete, please. If curving space is science, you should can explain with words how space curving. . __________________ http://www.onesimpleprinciple.com/l4 "Math without words is meaningless. Words without math can have meaning." by Maartenn100
 21st March 2018, 01:09 AM #39 Pixie of key Master Poster   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,045 "What is the driving force? It can not be anything physically concrete in existence." Should be What is the PULLING or DRAWING force? It can not be anything physically concrete in existence. By the way!!! Quess why you dont have physics theory of everything? Yes, because you believe, there is pulling force. You know, drawing force dont exist. No curving space. No expanding space!!! No stupid extra dimensions!!! No dark matter with drawing or pulling force. No dark energy which interactive with space somehow someway. . __________________ http://www.onesimpleprinciple.com/l4 "Math without words is meaningless. Words without math can have meaning." by Maartenn100
 21st March 2018, 01:21 AM #40 HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 14,444 Well, I would, but yesterday's post where I tried to explain some physics at an over-simplified level got moved to abandon all hope. I'm sure it broke some rule or another, so I'd rather not anger the mods with more physics You can still watch Leonard Susskind's lectures on youtube. E.g., the lectures on GR if you want words and drawings of how that curved space works. He's good, really. __________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

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