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Old 20th February 2018, 10:48 AM   #41
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Wait, a cat had it's brain removed and then it was walking around? Was it blinded, or could it still see? I'm thinking about the optical/visual control center in the brain.
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Old 20th February 2018, 10:50 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Jordan Peterson discusses an experiment done in which the brain and limbic system of a cat are removed, but the brain stem and spine left intact. Now, I couldn't pull up the text of the findings (if someone can, link would be appreciated), but the cat was able to walk just fine (videos available online easily) and was hyper-curious about it's surroundings (Mr. Peterson believes that this was because every experience was novel to the animal and it couldn't create memories which would avoid every experience from being overwhelming).

What I thought was interesting for this discussion was that Mr. Peterson states that the cat also slept. So, as a poster said above, this activity (sleeping) may not be associated only with brains but with the more general nervous system. I'm not sure if that does away with the argument in the main post, but I offer it as a curious example of how counter-intuitive the workings of the nervous system can be.
I might have to throw a flag on that one.
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:08 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Kings Full View Post
I might have to throw a flag on that one.
Didn't even bother googling, eh?

https://www.regenexx.com/can-learn-w...-cat-no-brain/

There are multiple links to videos and discussions of the study, but no actual re-print of the study that I could find.

Last edited by Crawtator; 20th February 2018 at 11:09 AM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:11 AM   #44
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Oh and the lecture where Mr. Peterson discusses this is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdNJTP6tYMs

(I believe this is correct but am listening to all of them, so may have gotten confused on the actual one...beware, it is long, but interesting).
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:14 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Wait, a cat had it's brain removed and then it was walking around? Was it blinded, or could it still see? I'm thinking about the optical/visual control center in the brain.
In the article I linked above, I don't think it is clear what it can see or if it can at all. However, the lecture I linked (YT) discusses that the cat can become hyperaggressive to stimuli as well, so my first instinct was to think it could still see and react to higher stimuli, but that question is a good one. This is one of the reasons I would like to find the actual published study itself because the discussion of the experiment left me stunned.
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:27 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Didn't even bother googling, eh?

https://www.regenexx.com/can-learn-w...-cat-no-brain/

There are multiple links to videos and discussions of the study, but no actual re-print of the study that I could find.
I'm not sure where to begin. So let me start by pointing out that in your first post you, yourself, didn't bother to post any link to this and yet you somehow expect me to google it for you?

Second, the link you did finally provide isn't a scientific paper that's been peer reviewed. It's an anecdotal 'story' about a walking 'dead' cat.

Thirdly, your original post described a cat that was walking on it's own and very curious about it's surroundings but your link describes a dead cat propped up on a treadmill and about the only thing it can do is walk. You do see the difference right?

Consider the flag thrown.
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:30 AM   #47
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Dead cat walking is woo.
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:35 AM   #48
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I don't google woo.
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:41 AM   #49
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Not woo. Eat your words.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Bremer

Under title Sleep Research.

You may apologize at any time.
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:48 AM   #50
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This would be a good time for you to put down the shovel and climb out of the hole.
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:55 AM   #51
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Cite follows:

Brain Research (peer reviewed journal...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Research)

Volume 96, Issue 1, 10 October 1975, Pages 71-75.

Title "Existence of a mutual tonic inhibitory interaction between the preoptic hypnogenic structure and the midbrain reticular formation"

Author - Frédéric Bremer

Not sure what else to say. I admitted to being confused in my first post and the YT video may not be related, but to say this is woo is completely unsubstantiated. PEER REVIEWED ARTICLE cited at least 23 times (really impressive when dealing with cognitive psychology and neurobiology).

If you won't take the time to educate yourself on this issue, then by all means, continue to be ignorant.
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:57 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
You may apologize at any time.
People demanding apologies when they're dead wrong rustles my jimmies.

Metabolic rhythms, including sleep, are governed by the hypothalamus right next to the brainstem. Not in the brainstem, just very close to it, but this was the '70s, I doubt he was all that precise. Motor rhythms, including locomotion, are encoded in the spinal cord/brainstem. Notice how the treadmill is moving? That's not the cat doing it. The cat is suspended just over a moving treadmill, and is walking with what we call muscle memory. Being held up on a moving treadmill to trigger walking is not "able to walk just fine", and in no way was the cat "hyper-curious about it's surroundings."

[ETA] I would speculate that sleep is all about information processing. There may be some housekeeping, recuperation or metabolic effects, but those are entirely incidental; you're there to crunch data. You've spent the whole day building up new knowledge, this is the time to shape it into lasting memories. Somehow. The technical term for this is "consolidation."

Last edited by Beelzebuddy; 20th February 2018 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:58 AM   #53
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Finally, I am pretty sure that in my initial post I had not been able to find the actual peer reviewed article and asked if anyone had come across it, perchance. I just listened to the lecture last night and was fascinated. I apologize to any if it came off misleading, but I thought it would be an interesting addition to this particular thread, since I stumbled on it yesterday before even listening to Mr. Peterson's lecture.
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Old 20th February 2018, 12:02 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
People demanding apologies when they're dead wrong rustles my jimmies.

Metabolic rhythms, including sleep, are governed by the hypothalamus right next to the brainstem. Not in the brainstem, just very close to it, but this was the '70s, I doubt he was all that precise. Motor rhythms, including locomotion, are encoded in the spinal cord/brainstem. Notice how the treadmill is moving? That's not the cat doing it. The cat is suspended just over a moving treadmill, and is walking with what we call muscle memory. Being held up on a moving treadmill to trigger walking is not "able to walk just fine", and in no way was the cat "hyper-curious about it's surroundings."
And once again, that is not the point of my post and everyone has gone completely off topic. Read my first post...it relates to the lack of the actual brain and the need for sleep. The cat, without its brain, still had cycles of sleep and wakefulness (still looking for full text for what that actually means). However, if the idea is that biological organisms need sleep to reorganize the brain (not the nervous system, as I stated in my post), these results seem to be at odds. If the brain was removed, but the hypothalamus and brainstem are still present and the cat still has times needed for sleep, doesn't that seem to point to sleep being a process that is not needed for the brain, specifically?
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Old 20th February 2018, 12:03 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Cite follows:

Brain Research (peer reviewed journal...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Research)

Volume 96, Issue 1, 10 October 1975, Pages 71-75.

Title "Existence of a mutual tonic inhibitory interaction between the preoptic hypnogenic structure and the midbrain reticular formation"

Author - Frédéric Bremer

Not sure what else to say. I admitted to being confused in my first post and the YT video may not be related, but to say this is woo is completely unsubstantiated. PEER REVIEWED ARTICLE cited at least 23 times (really impressive when dealing with cognitive psychology and neurobiology).

If you won't take the time to educate yourself on this issue, then by all means, continue to be ignorant.
You're really out of line here. You're also in over your head and unable to take a step back without insulting others.
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Old 20th February 2018, 12:08 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
If the brain was removed, but the hypothalamus and brainstem are still present and the cat still has times needed for sleep, doesn't that seem to point to sleep being a process that is not needed for the brain, specifically?
If you take the processor out of a computer but the power supply still turns on, does that point to electricity not being needed for the processor, specifically?
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Old 20th February 2018, 12:08 PM   #57
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More oddly, I find that the experiment done by Bremer is much more odd in its results than I first thought, at least from the synopsis. If he removed a portion of the brain but left the olfactory and optical cortex sections along with the hypothalamus and brainstem, he found the cats to be in a state that was identical to "barbituate sleep".

But:

"In order to further evaluate his deafferation "sleep hypothesis", Bremer conducted a second experiment in which he made a transection at a much lower level- just above where the brain stem and spinal cord meet. He termed this procedure the encéphale isolé, with this procedure he deprived the brain of all sensory input from the spine, but left all input from the cranial nerve intact. These results were very different from the midbrain transection. In contrast to the perpetual sleep state, the lower transection simply caused and alteration of sleep and wake cycle that was not different from a regular cat. This strengthened his belief in his hypothesis. Although unaware of the reticular activating system, discovered 14 years later by Guiseppi Moruzzi and Horace Magoun, Bremer attributed the sleep-wake cycle to the effects of sensory input to the brain. He concluded that sleep is simply a manifestation of a decrease in cortical "tone". The tone is maintained by the continuous flux of sensory information to the brain."

I think this is fascinating. I think this is a discussion that is directly relevant to the OP.
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Old 20th February 2018, 12:10 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
I think this is fascinating. I think this is a discussion that is directly relevant to the OP.
Not really. There's been forty years of research since then.
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Old 20th February 2018, 12:13 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
If you take the processor out of a computer but the power supply still turns on, does that point to electricity not being needed for the processor, specifically?
Oh, I get what you are saying completely. Is the hypothalamus simply continuing on the same sleep cycles regardless of the presence of the brain? If so, is the brain the actual necessitating organ for the sleep cycle? But why the different outcomes to the experiment with a cat with a differently bi-sected brain and more sensory input? I'm going to have to read the full text, but I think it is a fascinating experiment in terms of neurobiology (although probably couldn't be done today).
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Old 20th February 2018, 12:29 PM   #60
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Is the "cat without a brain" experiment similar to that old one from Russia where they cut off a dog's head and kept it alive? That one was filmed and is almost certainly a hoax.
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Old 20th February 2018, 12:44 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Is the "cat without a brain" experiment similar to that old one from Russia where they cut off a dog's head and kept it alive? That one was filmed and is almost certainly a hoax.
Nah, this one's real, it just doesn't mean what a lot of people want it to.

If you want some old-school ethics-are-for-pansies science that actually did produce some stellar results, check out Hubel and Wiesel.
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Old 20th February 2018, 12:50 PM   #62
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Thanks for the reference Beelzebuddy. Trying to inform myself on psychology and the biological aspects and find this kind of information fascinating.
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Old 20th February 2018, 12:51 PM   #63
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The cat's brain was removed. Did blood fill up the empty skull, or what? How did that work out?
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Old 20th February 2018, 12:59 PM   #64
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I'm not really sure in this case and maybe Beelzebuddy knows more about the particular experiment. But hydrocephalus, as I understand is more of a cerebrospinal fluid than actual water or blood. There are a number of cases where the actual brain tissue is largely missing in these cases and most of the skull is filled with fluid instead of cortical tissue with, in some cases, very little impact on functioning.
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Old 20th February 2018, 01:08 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
I'm not really sure in this case and maybe Beelzebuddy knows more about the particular experiment. But hydrocephalus, as I understand is more of a cerebrospinal fluid than actual water or blood. There are a number of cases where the actual brain tissue is largely missing in these cases and most of the skull is filled with fluid instead of cortical tissue with, in some cases, very little impact on functioning.
Those organisms develop with small abnormal brains. But the cat develops with a normal brain and then it's removed. The experimenter has to decide what is going to be used in place of the brain in the now-empty braincase. This is not arbitrary or trivial.
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Old 20th February 2018, 01:08 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
...What I thought was interesting for this discussion was that Mr. Peterson states that the cat also slept. So, as a poster said above, this activity (sleeping) may not be associated only with brains but with the more general nervous system. I'm not sure if that does away with the argument in the main post, but I offer it as a curious example of how counter-intuitive the workings of the nervous system can be.
OK, I'll bite. It's not only just brains. This has been known for some time i.e. instead of just torturing rats and cats for science the DDR (back in the day) decided to use humans to find out the best methods for training Olympic athletes.

First link from google sleep muscle repair:

https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson5.htm
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Old 20th February 2018, 10:51 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why does it seem a reasonable thing?
Because most of the world's animals sleep? Because I need to sleep at some point no matter how hard I try not too, as does almost everyone else?

Seems reasonable that it is a requirement, Bob.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:15 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
The evidence is very strong that sleep is a basic physiological need of nervous systems, and that other adaptive advantages it might have are secondary to that necessity. For example, an inherent need for sleep and the resulting rest periods would in turn permit the evolution of limb muscles that are adapted to a cycle of "hard work" and periodic rest. Muscles that don't require rest could have evolved instead, and did, in e.g. the case of cardiac muscle.

The same goes for the behavioral advantages such as optimum timing of hunting behavior, or spending periods of relative safety in sheltered nests. These are clearly adaptive given the need to sleep in the first place, but if no such inherent need is assumed then the advantages are less clear.

...

The study in the OP is consistent with the hypothesis that sleep is inherently necessary rather than something that evolved due to the various benefits of its behavioral sequelae. It's the kind of neurological finding that would be expected in that case. By itself it's not definitive yet, of course.
Thanks, great post.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:28 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
[ETA] I would speculate that sleep is all about information processing. There may be some housekeeping, recuperation or metabolic effects, but those are entirely incidental; you're there to crunch data. You've spent the whole day building up new knowledge, this is the time to shape it into lasting memories. Somehow. The technical term for this is "consolidation."
I can buy this for a human, but a mouse? A frog (if indeed they truly sleep)?
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:47 AM   #70
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Why not GlennB?
Nervous systems and brains have specifically evolved for processing information and learning, since it enables animals to have flexible behaviors in response to changes in the environment.
Even nematodes learn and have memories, even they need "consolidation" and require "sleep like" states.

Quote:
Here we review the literature on learning and memory in C. elegans. The paradigms covered can be roughly divided into three sections: nonassociative learning, associative learning, and imprinting.
An elegant mind: Learning and memory in Caenorhabditis elegans.


Originally Posted by Wikipedia
If sleep were not essential, one would expect to find:
* Animal species that do not sleep at all
* Animals that do not need recovery sleep after staying awake longer than usual
* Animals that suffer no serious consequences as a result of lack of sleep

Outside of a few basal animals that have no brain or a very simple one, no animals have been found to date that satisfy any of these criteria.
Sleep in non-human animals.
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Old 21st February 2018, 03:12 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
Why not GlennB?
Nervous systems and brains have specifically evolved for processing information and learning, since it enables animals to have flexible behaviors in response to changes in the environment.
Even nematodes learn and have memories, even they need "consolidation" and require "sleep like" states.

An elegant mind: Learning and memory in Caenorhabditis elegans.

Sleep in non-human animals.
Because, in the case of a mouse or an even simpler animal such as a fish, there's so little information that needs "consolidation" that a requirement for several hours sleep seems excessive. The more instinctive an animal's behaviour is then the less information there is to manage. But that's just my guess.

p.s. nematodes can learn, but nowhere in the article does it mention sleep. Ants, meanwhile, display a few minutes of much-reduced activity per day, but nothing that would pass for sleep in mammalian terms.
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Old 21st February 2018, 03:28 AM   #72
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C. elegans seems to need two hours per day.

Sleep in C. elegans is mentioned in the Wikipedia link, but here is an article:

A global brain state underlies C. elegans sleep behavior.
Quote:
We found that sleep in C. elegans is a global brain state in which about 75% of neurons displaying activity during wakefulness become inactive. However, a few specific neurons retained activity during sleep, notably γ-aminobutyric acid–producing (GABAergic) and peptidergic head neurons such as the sleep-promoting interneuron RIS.
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Old 21st February 2018, 03:55 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
It's mentioned in the second link, but here is an article:

A global brain state underlies C. elegans sleep behavior.
It plays fast and loose with the word "sleep" itself:

"In mammals, sleep is defined at the physiological level by a characteristic electroencephalography (EEG) signal. Such a definition is missing for invertebrate models, which primarily rely on behavioral definitions.
RATIONALE

The nematode Caenorhabditis elegans is a tractable model organism with the potential to overcome these limitations: It has a stereotypic and mapped nervous system of only 302 neurons. Sleep is developmentally timed and occurs predominantly during lethargus periods of ~2 hours at the end of each larval stage. "

To suggest that quiescent periods prior to a moult, in an animal with only 302 neurons, constitutes "sleep" is verging on ridiculous. Doubly ridiculous to link it to any form of information processing.
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Old 21st February 2018, 04:02 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Because most of the world's animals sleep? Because I need to sleep at some point no matter how hard I try not too, as does almost everyone else?

Seems reasonable that it is a requirement, Bob.
Eh? My question was why it was reasonable for the reason given by Belz not whether it is reasonable that we sleep!
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Old 21st February 2018, 04:28 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
It plays fast and loose with the word "sleep" itself
I agree it might not be exactly the same as sleep in higher animals, it only has 302 neurons and I doubt they dream much.

But they do learn and learning involves changes in synaptic connections and according to the article in the OP synapses need recovery time to learn more.
Or maybe it has nothing to do with learning but is something inherent to the functioning of synapses, I'm not sure.
The consolidation of memories might be an aspect only present in higher animals, maybe to do with REM sleep.

Something different, dreaming.
Fish apparently do not have REM sleep, but reptiles (at least some) do have something like REM sleep and dreams.
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Old 21st February 2018, 05:30 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Not woo. Eat your words.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Bremer

Under title Sleep Research.

You may apologize at any time.
Wow, that is one poorly-written article. I mean, what does this mean:

Quote:
In contrast to the perpetual sleep state, the lower transection simply caused and alteration of sleep and wake cycle that was not different from a regular cat.
That has nothing to do with the veracity of the claim, but it doesn't help. Also:

Quote:
Although Bremer's hypothesis was ultimately proved flawed, he was still one of pioneers of neurophysiology.
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Old 21st February 2018, 05:33 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Thanks for the reference Beelzebuddy. Trying to inform myself on psychology and the biological aspects and find this kind of information fascinating.
Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
I'm not really sure in this case and maybe Beelzebuddy knows more about the particular experiment
That's quite amusing considering that you insulted others for their ignorance and asked for apologies. Now you're admitting that you don't actually know anything about the topic.
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Old 21st February 2018, 08:24 AM   #78
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Where did I admit that I "don't know anything about the topic"? Look at my posts again, please. I admit that there are serious gaps in my knowledge of the methodology of the particular experiment. Methinks you are misreading my posts. And no where did I insult anyone. In fact, my ignorance statement came directly after accusations that I was engaging in "woo", when the specific article, that I could not find at the time, was a peer reviewed article.

FTR, the only reason I looked at this particular old study was the effects caused by the differential segmentation of the brain in the separate parts of the experiment and the relation of those surgeries to sleep.

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Old 21st February 2018, 08:28 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Where did I admit that I "don't know anything about the topic"?
Well partly right here: "Trying to inform myself on psychology" and also the fact that you got the conclusions of the experiments wrong.

Quote:
I admit that there are serious gaps in my knowledge of the methodology of the particular experiment.
Yes, which is why I'm asking you to stop playing the role of the teacher.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:13 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well partly right here: "Trying to inform myself on psychology" and also the fact that you got the conclusions of the experiments wrong.



Yes, which is why I'm asking you to stop playing the role of the teacher.
Trying to inform myself doesn't mean I don't know anything. Hell, experts in any field try to stay abreast of the newest developments. At no point did I claim to know everything or nothing. I never played the role of the teacher; I just raised the interesting point that the experiment resulted in vastly different outcomes in sleep patterns based on how much of the brain had been removed, which is highly relevant to the thread, so I'm not sure what your problem is.
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