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Tags Dave Thomas , richard gage , wtc collapse

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Old 19th August 2010, 12:22 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
It's your example. Explain what happens in it and how it applies.
Stop dodging and answer the question. It's a simple yes or no.

Originally Posted by ergo View Post
How does linear momentum of particles apply to rubble crushing a building?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_mass
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:22 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Don't go there!
Actually, you're right. I should clarify. Yes, gravity is pulling all things in the same direction. Resistance of other objects causes those things to move in other directions. The pieces of rubble are not all moving in the same direction.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:23 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
No, finish what you started. Your conclusions don't follow. Explain it for us.

In order for your "rubble" to spill over the sides it must impart it's gravitational energy (or some part of) to the part it impacts to make it actually change direction., The exact amount varies depending on how much it's path is altered.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:23 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Gravity pulls some pieces of rubble in some direction other than down? Please give an example.
Yes, gravity is pulling all things in the same direction. Resistance of other objects causes those things to move in other directions. The pieces of rubble are not all moving in the same direction.

Quote:
The bolded, like the rest, is completely correct.
The bolded is incorrect.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:24 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Because the rubble is a loose and randomized collection of building fragments and tends to spill over the sides. Individual rubble pieces do not have sufficient mass to crush through intact building components.
Have you not heard the phrase about things that "hit like a ton of bricks"?

Note that the phrase refers to a loosely organized collection of bricks. No mortar, no rebar, no solid building, just a ton of bricks.

The phrase means "to surprise or shock someone very much."

According to your "physics," they shouldn't even be mildly surprised!
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:24 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
How does linear momentum of particles apply to rubble crushing a building?
Which of these big words are you having a problem with?

Quote:
"The linear momentum of a system of particles is the vector sum of the momenta of all the individual objects in the system"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:25 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
In order for your rubble to spill over the sides it must impart its gravitational energy (or some part of) to the part it impacts to make it actually change direction. The exact amount varies depending on how much its path is altered.
Correct. Continue.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:26 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
Which of these big words are you having a problem with?
Just explain it, Big Al. It would take far fewer posts than your dodging.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:27 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Actually, you're right. I should clarify. Yes, gravity is pulling all things in the same direction. Resistance of other objects causes those things to move in other directions. The pieces of rubble are not all moving in the same direction.
Yes they are! Down! Unless acted on by another object. Then what happens to the gravitational energy?


It's not looking good for that lower block is it?
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:27 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
Have you not heard the phrase about things that "hit like a ton of bricks"?
I think most of us have. Please explain how a "ton of bricks" will crush through 90 intact storeys of steel and concrete in under 13 seconds, without mostly spilling over the sides.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:28 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
I think most of us have. Please explain how a "ton of bricks" will crush through 90 intact storeys of steel and concrete in under 13 seconds, without mostly spilling over the sides.
Momentum and gravity.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:29 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
Momentum and gravity.
Don't be silly, it'll hit the first intact floor and stop dead. That's what he's insinuating. I'd imagine this leads to CD.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:34 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
I think most of us have. Please explain how a "ton of bricks" will crush through 90 intact storeys of steel and concrete in under 13 seconds, without mostly spilling over the sides.
You haven't been listening. What happens to the energy that causes the bricks to "spill over the side"?
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:34 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Just explain it, Big Al. It would take far fewer posts than your dodging.
I don't know where to start. Pick up a high school physics text.

For most of us, things like vectors, momentum and particles are obvious basic concepts. I'm not going to write a physics course here for you when you can go to a library and do your own reading.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:34 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Yes they are! Down! Unless acted on by another object. Then what happens to the gravitational energy?
The pull of gravity remains constant. The kinetic energy, if that's what you mean, gets dispersed into different vectors.

Quote:
It's not looking good for that lower block is it?
This doesn't follow.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:35 PM   #216
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how do you people even function in the real world? according to this reasoning 50 $1's couldn't get you a $40 dinner.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:36 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
For most of us, things like vectors, momentum and particles are obvious basic concepts. I'm not going to write a physics course here for you when you can go to a library and do your own reading.
Anyone got a used dodge for sale? Oh yeah, Big Al does.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:37 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by grandmastershek View Post
how do you people even function in the real world? according to this reasoning 50 $1's couldn't get you a $40 dinner.
Not if some of those $1s are falling out of your pocket...
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:37 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Anyone got a used dodge for sale? Oh yeah, Big Al does.
Speaking of dodging:

Quote:
So when loading trucks from a silo, they just dump everything in at once because it doesn't impart any more force on the truck than if they let it out slowly?
According to your understanding of physics, is the bolded part a correct statement? Yes or no.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:38 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
The pull of gravity remains constant. The kinetic energy, if that's what you mean, gets dispersed into different vectors.



This doesn't follow.
"Different vectors"? Wouldn't that be the building below (in this case)?


And yes it does follow. Very nicely and exactly the same way every time.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:39 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post

According to your understanding of physics, is the bolded part a correct statement. Yes or no.
I really don't know how they load trucks from silos. Please explain it to us.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:40 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Anyone got a used dodge for sale? Oh yeah, Big Al does.
I'm not going to write a physics course here for you when you can go to a library and do your own reading.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:40 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
I really don't know how they load trucks from silos. Please explain it to us.


Quote:
So when loading trucks from a silo, they just dump everything in at once because it doesn't impart any more force on the truck than if they let it out slowly?
According to your understanding of physics, is the bolded part a correct statement? Yes or no. This really isn't a difficult question.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:44 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Yes, gravity is pulling all things in the same direction. Resistance of other objects causes those things to move in other directions. The pieces of rubble are not all moving in the same direction.

The bolded is incorrect.

Do you think it takes less braking force to stop a cement mixer full of wet cement, in which all the mixed granules are separate from each other and due to the truck's rotating barrel are all moving in different directions, than to stop another cement mixer filled with an equal weight of solidified cement with its barrel rotation turned off, assuming the same truck speed and the same stopping distance?

Why, or why not?

Respectfully,
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:45 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
"Different vectors"? Wouldn't that be the building below (in this case)?
No, those would be the horizontal and rebound pathways that the rubble particles take when they hit the intact building components. This is how the energy is dispersed. It is not crushing the building.

Therefore, no, your statement about the lower building does not follow.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:45 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
No, those would be the horizontal and rebound pathways that the rubble particles take when they hit the intact building components. This is how the energy is dispersed. It is not crushing the building.
Crushing is energy being dispersed. That's the whole point of crumple zones, airbags, etc.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:46 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
No, those would be the horizontal and rebound pathways that the rubble particles take when they hit the intact building components. This is how the energy is dispersed. It is not crushing the building.

Therefore, no, your statement about the lower building does not follow.
Read a physics text.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:46 PM   #228
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ergo:

Let's try this, If I drop a bowling ball on the ground (perfectly flat) does it "change direction"?



If you put your foot in between the ball and the ground would your foot sustain some sort of damage (or at least pain)? If you answer yes, why? Did the ball still "change direction?


I'm keeping this painfully simple because you seem to want to ignore a very simple thing (gravity and momentum).
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:47 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Do you think it takes less braking force to stop a cement mixer full of wet cement, in which all the mixed granules are separate from each other and due to the truck's rotating barrel are all moving in different directions, than to stop another cement mixer filled with an equal weight of solidified cement with its barrel rotation turned off, assuming the same truck speed and the same stopping distance?

Why, or why not?
This is an incorrect analogy. We are talking about linear momentum of a system of particles. You are talking here about a truck carrying a load.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:48 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
Crushing is energy being dispersed. That's the whole point of crumple zones, airbags, etc.
Yes. Your point?
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:48 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
This is an incorrect analogy. We are talking about linear momentum of a system of particles. You are talking here about a truck carrying a load.
A truck isn't a system of particles?
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:48 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
No, those would be the horizontal and rebound pathways that the rubble particles take when they hit the intact building components. This is how the energy is dispersed. It is not crushing the building.

Therefore, no, your statement about the lower building does not follow.
How did they get "horizontal"? They had to impact something that was "down", right?
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:49 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
This is an incorrect analogy. We are talking about linear momentum of a system of particles. You are talking here about a truck carrying a load.
Dude, everything is "a system of particles".
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:50 PM   #234
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So you're not going to answer my simple question?

Originally Posted by ergo View Post
I really don't know how they load trucks from silos. Please explain it to us.


Quote:
So when loading trucks from a silo, they just dump everything in at once because it doesn't impart any more force on the truck than if they let it out slowly?
According to your understanding of physics, is the bolded part a correct statement? Yes or no. This really isn't a difficult question.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:52 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
A truck isn't a system of particles?
Are we discussing particle physics or laws of motion? If we're discussing particles, why not discuss your intact upper block as a system of particles?
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:55 PM   #236
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This is shaping up to a nice Stundie factory.

Ergo, imagine two scenarios:

1. I drop a cement block on a flat surface. The cement block is 1m3, and to simplify, let's say it has a mass of 1 ton.

2. I empty a box of sand on the same surface. The total mass of the sand is 1 ton.

In which scenario do I impart the largest amount of force on the surface?
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:55 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Are we discussing particle physics or laws of motion? If we're discussing particles, why not discuss your intact upper block as a system of particles?
It's not the same laws?



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Old 19th August 2010, 12:56 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
How did they get "horizontal"? They had to impact something that was "down", right?
They impacted the intact components of the building, yes. As I stated before. These components are not crushed; they deflect the rubble pieces, which then have to move in another direction. This is what resistance is. This is what we mean when we say "unless acted on by another object". Energy gets dispersed into different directions.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:57 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
It's not the same laws?
No.
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Old 19th August 2010, 12:58 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
They impacted the intact components of the building, yes. As I stated before. These components are not crushed; they deflect the rubble pieces, which then have to move in another direction. This is what resistance is. This is what we mean when we say "unless acted on by another object". Energy gets dispersed into different directions.
The energy gets dispersed? What caused the energy to disperse, ergo? Was some kind of force necessary for this to happen, or did it happen spontaneously?
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