ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 911 conspiracy theory

Reply
Old 11th November 2008, 04:57 PM   #361
Thunder
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,918
what do the mommy's and daddy's of suicide bombers ALWAYS say just after their baby boy blows himself up and murders 30 men, women, and children with him?

"he was such a good boy. so innocent and kind. always just reading the Koran and praying at the Mosque with the other good boys in fatigues and kaffiyes. I cant believe he would do this!!!"
Thunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 05:01 PM   #362
JamesB
Master Poster
 
JamesB's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,152
Incidentally, suicide bombers are not even that religiously devout on average.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/7241...bomber-profile

Quote:
Suicide bombers who have sown mayhem from Israel to Iraq and from Chechnya to Sri Lanka are usually far from being the madmen, religious fanatics or impoverished misfits they are often portrayed as, New Scientist says.

The British science weekly says that experts who have studied the psychological profiles and backgrounds of suicide bombers find these assailants are often secular, well-educated individuals.

Many of them are born to prosperous families and take a rational decision about the path they chose, says a report in this Saturday’s issue.

What this amounts to is in many ways more alarming than the ubiquitous misperception of the suicide bomber as fanatical,” New Scientist says. “It means that in the right circumstances, anyone could be one.”

A study of Hamas and Palestinian suicide attackers from the 1980s to 2003 by Claude Berrebi, an economist at Princeton University, found that only 13 per cent of them came from a poor background, compared with 32 per cent of the Palestinian population in general.

In addition, more than half the suicide bombers had entered further education, compared with just 15 per cent of the general population.

Similarly, a study into Hezbollah militants who died in action in Lebanon in the 1980s and 1990s showed they were less likely to have come from poor families and likelier to have attended secondary school than others of their age.
__________________
I said lots of things in NPH that I would not say today and that I did not repeat in NPHR, where I specifically corrected at least some of the errors I had made in that earlier book, written 5 years ago.
-David Ray Griffin-
JamesB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 05:14 PM   #363
9/11-investigator
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,032
Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
what do the mommy's and daddy's of suicide bombers ALWAYS say just after their baby boy blows himself up and murders 30 men, women, and children with him?

"he was such a good boy. so innocent and kind. always just reading the Koran and praying at the Mosque with the other good boys in fatigues and kaffiyes. I cant believe he would do this!!!"
That's not true.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...292478048.html

You underestimate the concept of the islamic marterer and islamic pride. If a member of the community sacrifices himself for the 'greater good' then this will normally be acknowledged as an act of heroism. This is the case in Iraq and Palestine where suicide bombers fight occupiers. And these suicide bombers are almost always from the lowest layers of society. The behaviour of Atta c.s. is without precedent. Millions of devout muslims live in Europe and America for decades and we have seen nothing like this in this scale of organisation. I cannot even remember an islamic bomb attack in the West before 9/11. And all over sudden this large scale attack out of the blue.

I find world supremacy and grab for oil a much more convincing motive that these 'hate against our freedoms'. And the scale of the operation fits a nation state as organizer much better than a cave crowd.

Last edited by 9/11-investigator; 11th November 2008 at 05:16 PM.
9/11-investigator is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 05:16 PM   #364
MIKILLINI
Incromulent Logic
 
MIKILLINI's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,979
Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
"New Scientist"???

Ryhmes with "Jew Scientist"

I call Mossad propoganda.



Oh, and by the way, the Israeli Mossad Zionazi agents didnt say "we were here to document the event". that is the English translation of what they said in Hebrew. It could have just as easily been translated to "witness the event", "record the event", "see the event", etc.

And, what were all those other non-Jewish folks with cameras and video cameras doing clocking pictures and taking video of the towers doing? werent they "documenting the event"??? looks like it to me.

And, if it was a Mossad operation, why in the world would these highly trained, highly secretive spies be in the middle of the outdoors, on top of a white van, filming their damage, where all the world can see???

please...please dont tell me "the Mossad wanted to get caught..so thay they could give the truthers a hint of what happened".

Yes, they wanted to leave a trail so it would be discovered that the Mossad was in on it.
Geez, 9/11, you have to ask yourself: "Why in the hell would they do that??" If there's no people dancing, there's no suspicion, but if there are people dancing...see where this is going? Use some common sense here.
__________________
Attempting to build a case without evidence is just another day spent with no use of common sense.-Me

The conspiracist is not merely illogical: he assaults logic.~ Pomeroo
MIKILLINI is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 05:17 PM   #365
defaultdotxbe
Drunken Shikigami
 
defaultdotxbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 7,474
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Can somebody explain why all four aircraft did not send a 'I am hijacked' signal?

Thanks.
because the guys an NWO R&D forgot to install a remote system for that when they installed the remote control systems in the planes

i assure you, however, the responsible parties have been sacked
__________________
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein
defaultdotxbe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 05:18 PM   #366
twinstead
Penultimate Amazing
 
twinstead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,368
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
And these suicide bombers are almost always from the lowest layers of society.
JamesB's post above DIRECTLY contradicts this statement. Can you provide a link that supports it? Thanks.
__________________
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -- Harlan Ellison
twinstead is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 05:19 PM   #367
ktesibios
Worthless Aging Hippie
 
ktesibios's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,493
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Can somebody explain why all four aircraft did not send a 'I am hijacked' signal?

Thanks.
Gladly. Sending a hijack signal means changing the transponder's "squawk code" to 7500. The identifying codes are 4-digit octal numbers, in which each digit can have a value from 0 through 7. On most transponders, the code is set by either thumbwheel or rotary switches (in the case of the 757 & 767, it's concentric rotary switches- the outer knob of one switch sets two digits and the inner knob sets the other two, as you can see here.

For the old-fashioned "take me to Havana" hijackings, this was fine. While the pilots were flying the hijacker to Havana or wherever, they would have plenty of time to set the squawk code, communicate with the ground by radio and decide whether to order picadillo or try to get a burger when they got there.

OTOH, when you have an armed lunatic assaulting you, fiddling with knobs on the control pedestal will not be your #1 priority.

There were no "distress buttons". After 9/11, the FAA began considering making a rule that would require commercial airliners to carry an emergency transponder which could not be turned off from within the plane and which could be actuated with a single movement of the pilot's hand, a' la the "panic buttons" one finds in many security alarm systems. I don't at present know if they ever got as far as issuing a notice of proposed rulemaking, but irrespective of what action has since been taken, it wasn't until after 9/11 that the subject came up at all.

On 9/11, the hijackers were able to turn off the transponders on three of the four hijacked planes and to change the squawk code on one (UA175, IIRC) to confuse controllers who were trying to follow the planes on radar. Doing this isn't rocket science, it's just a matter of knowing which controls to set to what positions- information which even now is trivial to dig up online.
__________________
Ship me somewheres east of Suez, where the best is like the worst, where there ain't no ten commandments and a man can raise a small, bristly mustache.
ktesibios is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 05:22 PM   #368
MIKILLINI
Incromulent Logic
 
MIKILLINI's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,979
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
That's not true.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...292478048.html

You underestimate the concept of the islamic marterer and islamic pride. If a member of the community sacrifices himself for the 'greater good' then this will normally be acknowledged as an act of heroism. This is the case in Iraq and Palestine where suicide bombers fight occupiers. And these suicide bombers are almost always from the lowest layers of society. The behaviour of Atta c.s. is without precedent. Millions of devout muslims live in Europe and America for decades and we have seen nothing like this in this scale of organisation. I cannot even remember an islamic bomb attack in the West before 9/11. And all over sudden this large scale attack out of the blue.

I find world supremacy and grab for oil a much more convincing motive that these 'hate against our freedoms'. And the scale of the operation fits a nation state as organizer much better than a cave crowd.
Now don't forget what happened in '93. That truck full of explosives parked in the basement of 1 WTC didn't work, so they opted to use airliners for the next attempt; a much more effective plan as it turns out.
__________________
Attempting to build a case without evidence is just another day spent with no use of common sense.-Me

The conspiracist is not merely illogical: he assaults logic.~ Pomeroo
MIKILLINI is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 05:23 PM   #369
Thunder
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,918
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Millions of devout muslims live in Europe and America for decades and we have seen nothing like this in this scale of organisation. I cannot even remember an islamic bomb attack in the West before 9/11. And all over sudden this large scale attack out of the blue.
Um....ever hear of

The Millenium LAX bomb plot?
The 1993 WTC attack?
The blind sheihk plan to bomb the NYC tunnels?
The Muslim extremist plot to blow up a NYC Subway in Brooklyn?
The Muslim extremist plot to blow up 20 airplanes over the Atlantic?
The murder of Avi Halberstam on the Brooklyn Bridge?
The murder of tourists on the top of the Empire State Building?
The Algerian terror attacks in the Paris tube?


Help me out folks what am I missing?

Investigator, you are DEAD wrong, if you think there were no Islamic-extremist terror plots and terrorist acts in the USA before 9-11. You either haven't done ANY research into the matter, or deny it all as "Zionist lies".

Last edited by Thunder; 11th November 2008 at 05:24 PM.
Thunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 05:32 PM   #370
MIKILLINI
Incromulent Logic
 
MIKILLINI's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,979
Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
I see another 100 page argument from ignorance and personal incredulity coming. Can't wait. Haven't seen one of those in oh, I don't know, 10 MINUTES!~
Argument from ignorance and personal incredulity people don't rock.
__________________
Attempting to build a case without evidence is just another day spent with no use of common sense.-Me

The conspiracist is not merely illogical: he assaults logic.~ Pomeroo
MIKILLINI is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 06:01 PM   #371
9/11-investigator
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,032
Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
Oh, and by the way, the Israeli Mossad Zionazi agents didnt say "we were here to document the event". that is the English translation of what they said in Hebrew. It could have just as easily been translated to "witness the event", "record the event", "see the event", etc.
Ah that changes everything. Not documenting but recording. Brilliant answer, really. But tell me parky: how did they know the event was coming in the first place?

[T]hey were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage.


So they were there early, while the towers still stood. Probably even before they got hit. In other words they knew it was coming.

Quote:
And, what were all those other non-Jewish folks with cameras and video cameras doing clocking pictures and taking video of the towers doing? werent they "documenting the event"??? looks like it to me.
They certainly were not 'cheering and high-fiving'! Or driving around in white vans with traces of explosives; the same explosives that had been transported from the Urban Movers premisses to WTC four days earlier.

Quote:
And, if it was a Mossad operation, why in the world would these highly trained, highly secretive spies be in the middle of the outdoors, on top of a white van, filming their damage, where all the world can see???
Chutzpa? Contempt for and sense of total sense of superiority over the stupid Goyim? They are just people who make mistakes. And did. Big time.

Quote:
i beg..i urge...i plead..with 9-11 truthers. Use all your power, all your strength, all your energy, to summon what common sense you have left!!!!
Is '9/11-truther' a new synonym for an centuries old concept?
9/11-investigator is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 06:32 PM   #372
D'rok
Free Barbarian on The Land
 
D'rok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,399
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
...

I say debunkers=straussian neocons on their way from the synagoge to the AEI.

...
I love seeing that phrase. It is a dead giveaway that the person using it has never read Leo Strauss.

-1 for lack of research.
__________________
"War exists within the continuum of politics, in which play is continuous, and no outcome is final, save for a global thermonuclear war, which might be." - Darth Rotor

"Life, like a Saturday afternoon, finds its ruination in purpose." - MdC
D'rok is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 06:44 PM   #373
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,364
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Bollyn is vague about the technical specifications of the software that had been manipulated. He mentions indeed PTech as the key player. He says that NORAD software has been manipulated, what is possible since nobody denies that PTech had NORAD as a client. What I do not understand is how the 'home run' system got activated. There were suggestions 'via the transponder'. That would be via NORAD would it not? Now is there a way to circumvent NORAD and send a signal 'from the field' so to speak? Or must we assume that somebody send the signal from within NORAD?

Any ideas?
i just wonder how powerfull this software (ptech)is. some of those war games are classified and so is what the cia was doing that day. remember those mossad agents that got caught celebrating with the towers burning in the background, they also were "filming". eyewittnesses saw them "filming" that day. now i know that they took pictures that day b/c they developed one with those guys with a cigarette lighter celebrating with the twin towers in the background. did anyone know at that point what hit the towers?? have we seen a film yet, or was it something else they had in their hands?? i wonder if a foia reqest could get that film.

more about ptech being the next promis-
fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/012705_ptech_pt2.shtml

During the debriefing Indira was asked by a member of the Secret Service, "Is Ptech PROMIS?"

"I already knew what had happened to Danny Casolaro, and they were asking me if I had copies of Ptech," Indira told FTW.

Danny Casolaro was the investigative journalist mysteriously "suicided" in a West Virginia hotel room while investigating the theft of PROMIS software. Casolaro's investigation had uncovered a shadowy network he called "the Octopus" that seemed to have its hands in everything from drug trafficking and money laundering, all the way up to political assassinations and coups d'etat. When Casolaro's body was discovered, his arms were violently slashed and all the documents he traveled with were missing. He had told friends and relatives if anything happened to him they shouldn't believe it was by accident.

Being asked such a loaded question, she responded with her Ground Zero attitude saying:

"You have a copy of the software, why don't you tell me? This is not about the software guys, ok - was it a PROMIS? It was a place you could hide a PROMIS, a place you can drop a PROMIS."
Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 07:10 PM   #374
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,364
911 investigator-
here are 2 sources that really dive into the israel angle. if there wasnt anything there, these people wouldnt have anything to write about. i wouldnt be talking about the mossad if there wasnt anything there....but there is....and something shady!!

the first is from an ex NSA guy-
911review.org/brad.com/ISRAELI_ART_STUDENTS.html

Dogs provided by the Bergen County Police K-9 unit alerted to the presence of explosives in the van. The nearby Homestead Studio Suites Hotel was evacuated for several hours. Asked about the Israelis in the van being present at Liberty State Park at the time of the first World Trade Center impact, one East Rutherford officer responded, “sure they were there.”[14] Another confidential source told the Bergen County Record, “There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted . . . It looked like they’re hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park.”[15] According to several Weehawken neighbors of the Urban Moving Systems warehouse, the FBI, upon searching the the warehouse, discovered fertilizer, other chemicals for making explosives, pipes, caps, and traces of anthrax. After anthrax was discovered, investigators wearing hazardous material suits went through the warehouse. Residents around Urban Moving Systems who had connections to the local police also reported that helicopters with infrared radar swooped in over the warehouse on several occasions.[16
Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 07:12 PM   #375
Thunder
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,918
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
911 investigator-
here are 2 sources that really dive into the israel angle. if there wasnt anything there, these people wouldnt have anything to write about. i wouldnt be talking about the mossad if there wasnt anything there....but there is....and something shady!!

the first is from an ex NSA guy-
911review.org/brad.com/ISRAELI_ART_STUDENTS.html

Dogs provided by the Bergen County Police K-9 unit alerted to the presence of explosives in the van. The nearby Homestead Studio Suites Hotel was evacuated for several hours. Asked about the Israelis in the van being present at Liberty State Park at the time of the first World Trade Center impact, one East Rutherford officer responded, “sure they were there.”[14] Another confidential source told the Bergen County Record, “There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted . . . It looked like they’re hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park.”[15] According to several Weehawken neighbors of the Urban Moving Systems warehouse, the FBI, upon searching the the warehouse, discovered fertilizer, other chemicals for making explosives, pipes, caps, and traces of anthrax. After anthrax was discovered, investigators wearing hazardous material suits went through the warehouse. Residents around Urban Moving Systems who had connections to the local police also reported that helicopters with infrared radar swooped in over the warehouse on several occasions.[16
how about an actual quote from a newspaper huh? not some "ex-NSA guy".
Thunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 07:14 PM   #376
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,364
the second is a lawyer (gerald shea), that thought something was fishy and sent it to some important people on capitol hill:
the link-
antiwar.com/rep2/MemorandumtotheCommissionandSelectCommitteesbold.p df

MEMORANDUM TO THE NATIONAL COMMISSION ON TERRORIST ATTACKS UPON THE UNITED STATES THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE THE HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE

its 166 pages long (pdf) so if you have some time, id suggest you study it. on the last few pages, there is a map of where the terrorist were living and where the israeli "art students" were living.........im sure you guessed it....they were right together.
Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 07:15 PM   #377
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,364
parky- he has got it referenced if you take a look.
Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 07:17 PM   #378
Tricky
Briefly immortal
 
Tricky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: The Group W Bench
Posts: 44,240
Mod Warning Another batch of bickering posts moved to AAH. Unless you can stay on topic and cut out the personal attacks, that will be the fate of the whole thread.
Posted By:Tricky
Tricky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 07:20 PM   #379
D'rok
Free Barbarian on The Land
 
D'rok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,399
Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
Mod Warning Another batch of bickering posts moved to AAH. Unless you can stay on topic and cut out the personal attacks, that will be the fate of the whole thread.
Posted By:Tricky
I was trying to make a serious point that was related to the topic.
__________________
"War exists within the continuum of politics, in which play is continuous, and no outcome is final, save for a global thermonuclear war, which might be." - Darth Rotor

"Life, like a Saturday afternoon, finds its ruination in purpose." - MdC
D'rok is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 07:24 PM   #380
Gorgonian
Thinker
 
Gorgonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 201
Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
what do the mommy's and daddy's of suicide bombers ALWAYS say just after their baby boy blows himself up and murders 30 men, women, and children with him?
They blow up so fast!
Gorgonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 07:27 PM   #381
Thunder
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,918
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
parky- he has got it referenced if you take a look.
guess what? the reference #16 is no longer in existance. that was the one with the quote about the anthrax, bomb making material, fertilizer, caps, wires, etc etc..

how very conventient.

oh, and btw, is says "several weehawken neighboring residents". we all know how reliable neighbors are when it comes to FBI investigations into Israelis.

Last edited by Thunder; 11th November 2008 at 07:30 PM.
Thunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 07:54 PM   #382
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,364
Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
guess what? the reference #16 is no longer in existance. that was the one with the quote about the anthrax, bomb making material, fertilizer, caps, wires, etc etc..

how very conventient.

oh, and btw, is says "several weehawken neighboring residents". we all know how reliable neighbors are when it comes to FBI investigations into Israelis.

do you think wolf blitzer would persue that story??

Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 07:56 PM   #383
dtugg
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,885
I haven't really read this thread.

But it turns out that it was the Jews, right? And we know this because some Holocaust denier said so, right?
dtugg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 07:57 PM   #384
Thunder
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,918
Originally Posted by Senenmut View Post
do you think wolf blitzer would persue that story??

dude, the reference is inactive. even if it was active, the eyewitness "reports" of neighbors is useless. only the FBI or other law enforcemant can report on what the FBI found.

but thank you for providing this. it shows how very unreliable the reports into Urban Moving Systems actually are.

Thunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 08:05 PM   #385
Dr Adequate
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,766
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
The cockpit door is not wide enough to let 2 hijackers in at once. If the first pilot has his throat slit then the second pilot should have enough to a split second to mobilize himself with stretched arms to avoid throat cutting.
And if they got into the cockpit by saying: "Do as we say right now or we cut the throat of this stewardess"?

They don't have to use violence to take over the cockpit, the crew were under instructions to cooperate with hijackers.

Quote:
BTW, nothing but really nothing in the life's of these shy soft spoken devout muslims give's hints that they were capable to such a sudden burst of barbaric violence.
We admit that none of them had any previous record of committing suicide attacks.

There's a reason for this.

Quote:
You're making it up just not to contradict OCT.
There were in fact a number of things in their lives that gave "hints" of their capacity for violence, such as the way they hung around with terrorists like Al Qaeda. What do you think they were doing on those occasions, discussing flower arranging?

Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Hints? They hung out with terrorists, they made "martyrdom tapes", they acquired the skills and weapons necessary to do the job ... these are more than "hints".

Last edited by Dr Adequate; 11th November 2008 at 08:15 PM.
Dr Adequate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 08:09 PM   #386
Doctor Evil
Master Poster
 
Doctor Evil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,014
Originally Posted by Dr Adequate View Post
We admit that none of them had any previous record of committing suicide attacks.
Shocking, isn't it?

Anyway, I laughed.
__________________
"ut biberent, quando esse nollent " (if they will not eat, then they will drink) -- Publius Claudius Pulcher

"In this universe, effect follows cause. I've complained about it but ... " -- House
Doctor Evil is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 08:49 PM   #387
Regnad Kcin
Philosopher
 
Regnad Kcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,433
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Good evening, greetings from Amsterdam/Holland.

Sorry for the interruption but I have here a little theory about how 9/11 was done. Maybe you would care to look at it and give some comments. Thanks in advance.

Nobody ever claimed that 9/11 was carried out by the Japanese, the Russians, the Dutch or the Hutu's.

There are only 2 possibilities:

1) Arabs (Arab Conspiracy Theory - ACT)
2) Some kind of inside job (CIA, Mossad)
Your assigning "Arabs" as a distinguisher in item 1 is only partially correct. It should more rightly be "religious extremists."

As for "some kind of inside job," insofar as it relates to the events of 9/11, it is not a "possibility" in any way, shape or form. Couldn't happen. Didn't happen.
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.
Regnad Kcin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 09:09 PM   #388
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
No it is not. Saddam was asked to do the impossible, namely proving that he had no WMD's.

Wrong. Please go read up on the UNSC resolutions against Iraq. In 1991 both the UN and Iraq agreed that Iraq had illegal weapons (chemical, biological, and various long range firing platforms) and illegal weapons programs (chemical, biological and nuclear).

Iraq was directed to dismantle all weapons programs, destroy all weapons and provide evidence of this destruction to the UN.

Iraq failed to provide evidence of the dismantling of their illegal weapons and research programs, and continually and consistently failed to cooperate with the UN and behaved in a threatening and aggressive manner towards coalition forces in the Gulf and neighbouring states. (Look up Operation Vigilant Warrior, Operation Vigilant Warrior II, Operation Desert Strike, Operation Desert Thunder and Operation Desert Fox). This led to the obvious conclusion that the weapons still existed.

Now, you can argue that the US were too eager to interpret intelligence in favour of evidence of continued weapons programs and lacked skepticism, but what remains undeniable is Iraq failed to comply with the UN requirements, and had they met those requirements there would not have been an Iraq War.
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 09:11 PM   #389
Thunder
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,918
Originally Posted by Doctor Evil View Post
Shocking, isn't it?

Anyway, I laughed.
This is indeed a fact. It CANNOT be debunked. None of the 19 hijackers had any previous experience with suicide attacks.

Boy..they really got us there.

By the way, on 9-11, I was in Hong Kong about to fly to Japan. On the tv, they showed a message that a little known Japanese extremist group had taken credit for the attacks inorder to get revenge for the civilian deaths at Nagasaki.

Last edited by Thunder; 11th November 2008 at 09:15 PM.
Thunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 09:20 PM   #390
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
I'll look into that. A strong indication is that none of the 4 airplanes send a 'I have been hijacked' signal. This indicates that the loss of control was immediate.
This is nonsense. Aircraft do not send "I have been hijacked" signals. The pilot has to manually change the transponder code. This did not happen on any of the flights on account of the pilots being distracted by the knives rammed in their throats.

However the pilot on UA93 did manage to get out several "Mayday" calls, which refutes you "immediate loss of control" argument.



Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
1) reading a signal from the transponder and program the new course (what normally the pilot would do manually if he wants to use his autopilot)
I don't think you understand what transponders are.


Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
2) total disabling of all controlls
This would not be possible, and would be the crux of your problem. Worst case scenario, the pilots could simply pull the breakers and fly the aircraft without power.
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 09:37 PM   #391
Jonnyclueless
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,546
Yes 9/11 investigator like the other lemmings fails to understand that it was not a traditional hijacking where the pilots are still used to fly the plane and can then switch the transponder to hijack.

And yet he thinks that the planes were taken over by remote control and that the pilots just sat there and shrugged, not bothering to switch the transponder to hijack or to radio to ground control.
Jonnyclueless is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 09:44 PM   #392
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Bollyn is vague about the technical specifications of the software that had been manipulated. He mentions indeed PTech as the key player. He says that NORAD software has been manipulated, what is possible since nobody denies that PTech had NORAD as a client. What I do not understand is how the 'home run' system got activated. There were suggestions 'via the transponder'. That would be via NORAD would it not? Now is there a way to circumvent NORAD and send a signal 'from the field' so to speak? Or must we assume that somebody send the signal from within NORAD?

Any ideas?


Ptech's software is a virtual organisation software. You punch in the various departments and components of an organisation with their various interactions and features, and it allows you to assess the impact of changing something. For example, what happens if we merge our Personnel and Recruitment teams and combine their budgets?

Ptech software is not operational software, it is not run on operational computer systems, and it certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with air traffic control or air monitoring. Ptech were investigated after 9/11 and it was found their software was harmless.

For what it's worth Ptech does not help the Mossad/CIA theory because Ptech is a Muslim organisation with strong links to Islamic Terrorists. If anyone was utilising Ptech it was Al Qaeda, not Mossad.

As for your transponder fantasy, it shows a gross lack of understanding of both the air traffic control system and NORAD.

Transponders are certified devices which respond specifically to the interrogation signal from an FAA interrogator beacon. They send back a specific recognisable response. That is the end of the interaction.

NORAD has absolutely no direct contact with an aircraft transponder, and has no way of sending a direct signal to an aircraft transponder even if it wished to.

Transponders do not communicate with the flight computer. Your theory would involve installing some sort of device in the aircraft which linked into the flight computer, and received communications from a ground-based transmitter of unknown origin. In other words you would need to install an entirely new and discreet remote control system. Nothing in the existing transponder/beacon ATC circuit could be utilised for this purpose. You could not modify or replace these components either because then the system would not function as it was supposed to and the pilots and ATC staff would detect something was wrong.
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2008, 09:47 PM   #393
JoeyDonuts
Frequencies Not Known To Normals
 
JoeyDonuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 10,536
Hey 9-11 Investigator...you'd better hope for your sake that there is no international Zionist conspiracy behind 9-11. From every thing you've described their resources and technical aptitude are nearly limitless, they are able to insert operatives into any country in the world to operate with absolute impunity, and they don't even blink at massacring 3000 non-combatants in an allied country.

I put it to you - Why are you still alive and posting on this forum? Wouldn't an organization with the resources and capability of the Mossad in your theory be actively monitoring sites such as this one to ensure nobody got too close to the truth - and "disappearing" the ones that did?

I now present to you a one act play. The characters are two Mossad agents actively monitoring the JREF website.

A1 : Oy Gevalt, Moesha! This Belgian meshugganah's getting too close to the matzo balls.

A2 : You remember the woman in Hoorn, Manachem?

A1 : Mazeltov! I'm thinking 10kgs of C4 right under his mattress.

A2 : Agreed. Bagels first, though, right?

A1 : Oy, What a mensch!

***both cackle maniacally as scene fades to black***
__________________
EXIT STAGE LEFT! EXIT STAGE RIGHT! THERE IS NO PLACE TO RUN; ALL THE FUSES IN THE EXIT SIGNS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT!
JoeyDonuts is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2008, 02:46 AM   #394
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 24,846
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
According to this scenario...

http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/a...enario404.html

... here is een narrative that states: The deployment of the explosive charges in the three World Trade Center skyscrapers is performed by a team of just three technicians working over a period of about four weeks.

That's 60 man-days. Or a crew of 30 in my weekend-scenario.
I'm a little behind the action here, but taking numbers from Scenario 404 shows your gullibility more than anything else. Why would you assume that these figures are justified simply because they're on a truther website?

Let's do some maths, and check Scenario 404's figures.
The scenario assumes that WTC1, 2 and 7 were destroyed by demolition charges, and states that “The number of explosive charges used in the Twin Towers is far less than would be employed in conventional demolitions of such large buildings, but their aggregate explosive energy is much greater. Each charge is contained in a capsule weighing about 40 pounds and encased in an impact- and fire-resistant casing similar to the casings that shield aircraft black boxes.” We see at http://www.911research.wtc7.net/papers/dustvolume/volumev3_1.html (the same website as this scenario, therefore I will assume that the scenario is intended to be consistent with it) an estimate of the amount of explosive used. It is calculated that the energy yield of the explosive is of order ten times the potential energy of the towers, which equates to approximately 5000 tons of high explosive. Let us assume that, of the total weight of this 40lb capsule, 30lb is high explosive, the remainder being taken up by detonators, radio equipment and impact- and fire-resistant casing. For this amount of high explosive, 400,000 of these capsules are required throughout WTC1 and WTC2.
Based on the calculation of 400,000 charges required to be placed, this requires that the three technicians, even working twelve-hour days, seven days a week for four weeks, have been placing one charge every ten seconds. This includes time to unload the charges from the fleet of trucks bringing them to the WTC (assuming that the truck drivers were not part of the conspiracy, and have since failed to realize the significance of the large numbers of light fittings they transported into the towers in August), bring them up to the required sky lobby, change to the appropriate local elevator, place the charges and then ride the elevators back down to the parking garage. Even supposing the technicians are able to carry more than their own weight in explosives on each trip, we still have a total time of less than two minutes to carry out all these actions.
This is not complicated mathematics, it's simple arithmetic, and it shows simply and clearly that your source is giving absurd numbers. The question I'd like to ask is, if you're a serious investigator, why don't you scrutinise truther sources with the same skepticism you display towards non-truther sources? Your credibility is at stake when you blindly pull numbers out of rubbish like Scenario 404.

Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
P.S. the same link has a paragraph "The Destruction in Manhattan". It states that placing of radiographic explosives in the elevator shaft is sufficient to bring the building down. This makes the discussion about power-down in the weekend superfluous. Essential is the availability of one elevator shaft closed for the public.
Again, your gullibility is showing, as is the slipshod nature of your "research". It says thermobaric, not radiographic, explosives. Thermobarics are low-velocity, high-yield explosives, excellent for killing large numbers of people, good for demolishing high surface area structures such as brick or concrete buildings, but utterly useless, due to the lack of a concentrated shock wave, for severing steel structural members. Thermobarics also put out very large and obvious flames, which would be obvious in any video of the collapses - they would look a lot like the fuel deflagrations when the airliners hit. They simply aren't there.

Again: If you're a serious investigator, why are you so uncritical of sources that match your predetermined conclusion?

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2008, 02:59 AM   #395
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 24,846
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Can somebody explain why all four aircraft did not send a 'I am hijacked' signal?
I advanced a hypothesis in post #284, but I'm happy to repeat it. The script goes something like this:

Hijacker grabs young, attractive woman (y.a.w.), ideally a member of the cabin crew, and holds a very sharp knife to her jugular. He then instructs another member of the flight crew to unlock the cockpit door (if it's even locked; regs said lock it, but real people often ignore regs). Entering the cockpit with y.a.w. in front of him, he tells the pilots not to touch any controls, then says that if they don't get up from their seats immediately he'll kill the y.a.w. and then his associates will start killing the passengers. Pilots comply immediately to avoid bloodshed, because they expect this will be a standard hijack ending in a hostage situation, and there's a chance they'll all get out of this alive.

Simple, brutal, low-tech and effective. Which part of that seems implausible?

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2008, 03:06 AM   #396
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 24,846
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Ah that changes everything. Not documenting but recording. Brilliant answer, really. But tell me parky: how did they know the event was coming in the first place?

[T]hey were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage.


So they were there early, while the towers still stood. Probably even before they got hit. In other words they knew it was coming.
Now there's a classic piece of truther dishonesty. Let's take it apart and look at it.

Your quote says that they were seen photographing the ruins and the wreckage. That places them at the scene after the towers fell. You've then taken it to mean, with no justification, that they were there before the towers fell. Claiming that as fact, you then go on to speculate that this implies they were there before the towers were hit. So your evidence of foreknowledge here is your own speculative extrapolation from a deliberate misinterpretation of your own source.

Honestly, this is a poor performance. You're actually admitting that you're making your evidence up as you go along.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2008, 04:10 AM   #397
MikeW
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,910
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Hijacker grabs young, attractive woman (y.a.w.), ideally a member of the cabin crew, and holds a very sharp knife to her jugular. He then instructs another member of the flight crew to unlock the cockpit door...
From memory there were two attendants stabbed on flight 11, and they were the two who had keys to the cockpit. If this wasn't a coincidence then it might be something they learned while taking flights and observing what's going on. And that certainly makes sense: if you wanted to break into the cockpit, and there were people outside who had a key, then you'd want to see if you could identify them, then attack them first.
MikeW is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2008, 04:55 AM   #398
9/11-investigator
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,032
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Now there's a classic piece of truther dishonesty. Let's take it apart and look at it.

Your quote says that they were seen photographing the ruins and the wreckage. That places them at the scene after the towers fell. You've then taken it to mean, with no justification, that they were there before the towers fell. Claiming that as fact, you then go on to speculate that this implies they were there before the towers were hit. So your evidence of foreknowledge here is your own speculative extrapolation from a deliberate misinterpretation of your own source.

Honestly, this is a poor performance. You're actually admitting that you're making your evidence up as you go along.

Dave
This is very easy to debunk:

http://incogman.wordpress.com/2007/1...cing-israelis/

On the morning of 9/11, a little old lady who wishes to be known only as Maria, was called by a neighbor to tell her about the first strike on the North Tower. Grabbing a pair of binoculars, she went to the window overlooking NY. This New Jersey woman then noticed a group of men standing on a white van, photographing and filming the event and acting joyful and happy. They were high-fiving each other and supposedly, holding up lighters like at a rock concert. This shocked her and she copied the license plate numbers and called the law.

They were there within 15 minutes of the first tower being hit, if not before. Plus, they were celebrating when no one else knew if it was an accident or not! Think about that one. This case shows blatant foreknowledge –if nothing else


I'll advise the debunkers to pay carefull attention to this issue since this is one of the largest smoking guns and a ticking timebomb under the already discredited OCT and reason why my ICT has much more credebility.

Last edited by 9/11-investigator; 12th November 2008 at 04:58 AM. Reason: bold font
9/11-investigator is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2008, 05:07 AM   #399
chillzero
Penultimate Amazing
 
chillzero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,539


I don't see this as relevant to the setting up of the events of 911, as laid out in your OP.
chillzero is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2008, 05:16 AM   #400
funk de fino
Dreaming of unicorns
 
funk de fino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 11,938
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
This is very easy to debunk:

http://incogman.wordpress.com/2007/1...cing-israelis/

On the morning of 9/11, a little old lady who wishes to be known only as Maria, was called by a neighbor to tell her about the first strike on the North Tower. Grabbing a pair of binoculars, she went to the window overlooking NY. This New Jersey woman then noticed a group of men standing on a white van, photographing and filming the event and acting joyful and happy. They were high-fiving each other and supposedly, holding up lighters like at a rock concert. This shocked her and she copied the license plate numbers and called the law.

They were there within 15 minutes of the first tower being hit, if not before. Plus, they were celebrating when no one else knew if it was an accident or not! Think about that one. This case shows blatant foreknowledge –if nothing else


I'll advise the debunkers to pay carefull attention to this issue since this is one of the largest smoking guns and a ticking timebomb under the already discredited OCT and reason why my ICT has much more credebility.
hearsay.com again

utter lies
__________________

Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase.
funk de fino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:56 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.