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Tags compulsion , deception , idiocy , Nobility , ratitude , violence

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Old 13th November 2017, 08:15 PM   #1801
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You are proposing to slaughter the vegetables? How will you be doing so humanely?
Fruits.
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Old 13th November 2017, 08:48 PM   #1802
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Fruits.
What about fruits that continue to live after picking? And what about the seeds within them? I mean, if you're going be a ridiculous purist about this sort of stuff, you can't eat an apple until it's started to rot, and only if you promise to plant the core. I am assuming here, probably wrongly, that you are aware that many fruits continue to be living beings after they're fallen or picked. An apple continues with respiration for quite some time.

What makes eating a fruit less murderous than eating a vegetable? If you eat a carrot, you're eating the living being, of course, but if you let it go to seed first, you're not impeding its evolution. If you eat an apple, it's true that the tree lives on, but you're eating its babies and impeding its evolution. It's a no win situation. If you take your silliness to its conclusion you're going to be eating gravel.

And why, if nature has been so free as to create large numbers of carnivores, including our simian ancestors, should it ever be considered more natural for us to become vegans?
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Old 13th November 2017, 09:25 PM   #1803
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
What about fruits that continue to live after picking? And what about the seeds within them? I mean, if you're going be a ridiculous purist about this sort of stuff, you can't eat an apple until it's started to rot, and only if you promise to plant the core. I am assuming here, probably wrongly, that you are aware that many fruits continue to be living beings after they're fallen or picked. An apple continues with respiration for quite some time.

What makes eating a fruit less murderous than eating a vegetable? If you eat a carrot, you're eating the living being, of course, but if you let it go to seed first, you're not impeding its evolution. If you eat an apple, it's true that the tree lives on, but you're eating its babies and impeding its evolution. It's a no win situation. If you take your silliness to its conclusion you're going to be eating gravel.

And why, if nature has been so free as to create large numbers of carnivores, including our simian ancestors, should it ever be considered more natural for us to become vegans?
Fruits are naturally offered for dispersal, so attract on fully ripe. Our natural duty is to enable seed dispersal in return of pulp gift. Moreover generation violence do not happen in case of fruits, whereas possible in case of vegetables & flowers, even leaves, stems, branches & roots(veg propagation & Tissue culture). Just calculate killing by generation killing and few killing. I think, you can not propagate plants even by tissue culture by fruit pulp. Some voilance can't not be avoided for live & let live but Intelligent violence leading to minimum violence can be opted.
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Last edited by Kumar; 13th November 2017 at 09:29 PM. Reason: add
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Old 13th November 2017, 10:23 PM   #1804
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to sum up
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Old 13th November 2017, 11:06 PM   #1805
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Fruits are naturally offered for dispersal, so attract on fully ripe. Our natural duty is to enable seed dispersal in return of pulp gift. Moreover generation violence do not happen in case of fruits, whereas possible in case of vegetables & flowers, even leaves, stems, branches & roots(veg propagation & Tissue culture). Just calculate killing by generation killing and few killing. I think, you can not propagate plants even by tissue culture by fruit pulp. Some voilance can't not be avoided for live & let live but Intelligent violence leading to minimum violence can be opted.
You can propagate plants in various ways, but I was very careful to choose for my silly simile a carrot, an annual plant that propagates by seed. Obviously a plant that propagates by seed and dies thereafter has done its thing from the evolutionary and generational standpoint. To suggest that eating it is somehow more savage than eating, say, a walnut or a tomato, is preposterously foolish. If, as the saying goes, mighty oaks from acorns grow, then a squirrel munching an acorn is a far more murderous fiend than a man eating a parsnip.

Some fruits can of course be eaten and the seeds dispersed, but it is illegitimately teleological to suggest that it offers itself to be eaten, rather than simply being taken advantage of by herbivores. There is in nature a nice symbiotic relationship between some fruits and animals, in which the animal disperses the indigestible seeds after eating the fruit. But there's nothing moral about it, nor does one thing happen because of another. It's just successful. It works. Some fruits work well by being partially digested by herbivores. Some others work well by making enough that they can survive the depredation of seed-eating herbivores. Just as some animals keep from extinction with claws and shells, and some by making so many eggs that a few progeny will survive the carnivorous feast. If you make the sad evolutionary mistake of presuming that fruits are made to be eaten simply because they are, you cannot then deny that animals such as krill are made to be eaten by penguins and whales, or, of course, that the domestic animals we raise for meat were not "made" to be eaten as well, since without the demand for their meat they would not exist.

Or, as Wallace Stevens famously put it in the title of a poem, "
Frogs Eat Butterflies. Snakes Eat Frogs. Hogs Eat Snakes. Men Eat Hogs
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Last edited by bruto; 13th November 2017 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 13th November 2017, 11:20 PM   #1806
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
You can propagate plants in various ways, but I was very careful to choose for my silly simile a carrot, an annual plant that propagates by seed. Obviously a plant that propagates by seed and dies thereafter has done its thing from the evolutionary and generational standpoint. To suggest that eating it is somehow more savage than eating, say, a walnut or a tomato, is preposterously foolish. If, as the saying goes, mighty oaks from acorns grow, then a squirrel munching an acorn is a far more murderous fiend than a man eating a parsnip.

Some fruits can of course be eaten and the seeds dispersed, but it is illegitimately teleological to suggest that it offers itself to be eaten, rather than simply being taken advantage of by herbivores. There is in nature a nice symbiotic relationship between some fruits and animals, in which the animal disperses the indigestible seeds after eating the fruit. But there's nothing moral about it, nor does one thing happen because of another. It's just successful. It works. Some fruits work well by being partially digested by herbivores. Some others work well by making enough that they can survive the depredation of seed-eating herbivores. Just as some animals keep from extinction with claws and shells, and some by making so many eggs that a few progeny will survive the carnivorous feast. If you make the sad evolutionary mistake of presuming that fruits are made to be eaten simply because they are, you cannot then deny that animals such as krill are made to be eaten by penguins and whales, or, of course, that the domestic animals we raise for meat were not "made" to be eaten as well, since without the demand for their meat they would not exist.

Or, as Wallace Stevens famously put it in the title of a poem, "
Frogs Eat Butterflies. Snakes Eat Frogs. Hogs Eat Snakes. Men Eat Hogs
As I mentioned fruits are purposeful to fullfil nature goal. Moreover who is eating what also depend on their nature. It is for the purpose to keep nature in harmony and balance. Since we need to cook, it can not be taken as primarily natural. Spending lesser energy on physical natural works, can make you physically wéaker but mentally strong. Probably, increasing consicióusness or mental power or brain size may be due to this reason not a primarily nature aspect or simply an adaptation.
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:10 AM   #1807
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Since long back, I was bit confused that, leaving true homeostatic level, whether a physically strong/active person is somewhat inferior to a mentally strong/active person and vice versa. I feel, I got some logic to it, as mentioned by me in "Consciousness/Awareness topic. I am happy.
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:21 AM   #1808
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
One may need to be so dynamic that he can understand truth..true sense, true religion, true nature, true humanity, true morality, true diet...so many true. When you are able to understand it, you shall need not to base morality or humanity for basic nature,sense and truth. Try.
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:40 AM   #1809
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
One may need to be so dynamic that he can understand truth..true sense, true religion, true nature, true humanity, true morality, true diet...so many true. When you are able to understand it, you shall need not to base morality or humanity for basic nature,sense and truth. Try.
We've been trying, many of us for many pages in many threads. And getting nowhere with it. I'm reminded of the poem which states "The boy stood on the burning deck / Whence all but he had fled . . . ."
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:22 AM   #1810
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
We've been trying, many of us for many pages in many threads. And getting nowhere with it. I'm reminded of the poem which states "The boy stood on the burning deck / Whence all but he had fled . . . ."
Indeed, a surprisingly good example, combining in this case a famously futile gesture with a famously clumsy bit of grammar.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:30 AM   #1811
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I'm sure I remember that as a kid..

The boy stood on the burning deck
The captain blew his hooter.
And who do you think came trundling by?
Why Kumar on his scooter.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:38 AM   #1812
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
One may need to be so dynamic that he can understand truth..true sense, true religion, true nature, true humanity, true morality, true diet...so many true.
But you can't prove any of those are true. You're just wantonly abusing the word "true" to make it seem like your personal morals are self-evidently correct.

Quote:
When you are able to understand it...
It's not a matter of understanding. It's a matter of having no rational basis for accepting it. You're talking to skeptics. They aren't going to be convinced by a lot of sanctimonious handwaving, which apparently is the only horse in your stable. At every turn we find that it's you who doesn't understand anything about the world outside your little bubble. You're not the enlightened one here, and frankly the arrogance you display is getting quite tedious, insulting, and annoying.

Quote:
Try.
Thinking for yourself. Try it.

We get it: you have strongly held religious beliefs. But this is not the place to proselyte or to convince yourself that they are objectively correct.

Last edited by JayUtah; 14th November 2017 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:00 AM   #1813
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
One may need to be so dynamic that he can understand truth..true sense, true religion, true nature, true humanity, true morality, true diet...

Worms?
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:57 PM   #1814
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The boy stood on the burning deck,
but badly schooled was him.
His garbled prayer received no heed;
The price paid for error grim.
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Old 14th November 2017, 04:01 PM   #1815
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Worms?
I think a diet of worms is an acquired taste. Luther found it quite indigestible.
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:33 PM   #1816
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Worms?
That's for Kumar's benefit. Historical references, most factual statements, and humorous turns of phrase all fly right over his head. (Dang! That's figurative language too!)
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:45 PM   #1817
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The boy stood on the burning deck,
Consumed by rising heat.
"Immoral flames, go straight to heck,
For cooking all my meat."
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:02 PM   #1818
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
But you can't prove any of those are true. You're just wantonly abusing the word "true" to make it seem like your personal morals are self-evidently correct.



It's not a matter of understanding. It's a matter of having no rational basis for accepting it. You're talking to skeptics. They aren't going to be convinced by a lot of sanctimonious handwaving, which apparently is the only horse in your stable. At every turn we find that it's you who doesn't understand anything about the world outside your little bubble. You're not the enlightened one here, and frankly the arrogance you display is getting quite tedious, insulting, and annoying.



Thinking for yourself. Try it.

We get it: you have strongly held religious beliefs. But this is not the place to proselyte or to convince yourself that they are objectively correct.
When one want to do unbiased or truthful discussions, he has to forget self and look the things with equanimity and face the facts. Otherwise, to adjust, need of time/environment/evolution, he can discuss rationally. Discussing with selfish vested interests.ego and perceptions he can also support one sidedness & lie. My Mango tree example.
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:04 PM   #1819
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Worms?
Althought it can be irrational to discuss but most natural diet of anyone should be diet of its constituents.
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Last edited by Kumar; 14th November 2017 at 08:05 PM. Reason: correct
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:07 PM   #1820
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
When one want to do unbiased or truthful discussions, he has to forget self and look the things with equanimity and face the facts.
Yes, you should do that.
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:15 PM   #1821
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
You can propagate plants in various ways, but I was very careful to choose for my silly simile a carrot, an annual plant that propagates by seed. Obviously a plant that propagates by seed and dies thereafter has done its thing from the evolutionary and generational standpoint. To suggest that eating it is somehow more savage than eating, say, a walnut or a tomato, is preposterously foolish. If, as the saying goes, mighty oaks from acorns grow, then a squirrel munching an acorn is a far more murderous fiend than a man eating a parsnip.

Some fruits can of course be eaten and the seeds dispersed, but it is illegitimately teleological to suggest that it offers itself to be eaten, rather than simply being taken advantage of by herbivores. There is in nature a nice symbiotic relationship between some fruits and animals, in which the animal disperses the indigestible seeds after eating the fruit. But there's nothing moral about it, nor does one thing happen because of another. It's just successful. It works. Some fruits work well by being partially digested by herbivores. Some others work well by making enough that they can survive the depredation of seed-eating herbivores. Just as some animals keep from extinction with claws and shells, and some by making so many eggs that a few progeny will survive the carnivorous feast. If you make the sad evolutionary mistake of presuming that fruits are made to be eaten simply because they are, you cannot then deny that animals such as krill are made to be eaten by penguins and whales, or, of course, that the domestic animals we raise for meat were not "made" to be eaten as well, since without the demand for their meat they would not exist.

Or, as Wallace Stevens famously put it in the title of a poem, "
Frogs Eat Butterflies. Snakes Eat Frogs. Hogs Eat Snakes. Men Eat Hogs
Nature should not be purposeless. It does things to keep it in balance which should also be basis of survival of all its constituents. By creation, maintenance & destruction, it can achieve such balance. We just have to see, how we are supporting it to achieve its balance. Whoever eat other, can depend on it and that will be called as nature of that being--if its basic nature. Evolutionary changes are not basic nature so can bring odds. We can also evolved to modern weapons, still it will not mean, they shall be good for us. Simply look at basic nature for truth and secondary nature for rational.
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:23 PM   #1822
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Nature should not be purposeless. It does things to keep it in balance...
No, it is a system in short-term equilibrium. That does not imply a purpose in keeping it there.

'
Quote:
Simply look at basic nature for truth...
We have been. You're the one looking at your religious beliefs and wrongly assuming that's nature.
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:27 PM   #1823
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Yes, you should do that.
This is my first choice. Therefore say true religion and true nature. However many times I need to compromise for maintaining harmonious atmosphere. Some new understandings are coming to me, lesser physical energy usage or excess energy absorption may make us physically lazy but mentally strong. Easily digestible foods--say cooked & direct foods can do that.
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:30 PM   #1824
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
This is my first choice. Therefore say true religion and true nature. However many times I need to compromise for maintaining harmonious atmosphere. Some new understandings are coming to me, lesser physical energy usage or excess energy absorption may make us physically lazy but mentally strong. Easily digestible foods--say cooked & direct foods can do that.
Eat or do not eat whatever you want. But don't pretend it must be natural to do so, or that you are morally superior for doing so. And especially do not foist your beliefs on skeptics unless you are willing to deal in facts.
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:31 PM   #1825
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, it is a system in short-term equilibrium. That does not imply a purpose in keeping it there.

'

We have been. You're the one looking at your religious beliefs and wrongly assuming that's nature.
Yes when moving towards big bang.

Source of true nature can also be truth in some religion. We take many type of foods. Few of them can still ne natural eg fruits.
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:33 PM   #1826
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Source of true nature can also be truth in some religion.
No. We went over this. Your religion just makes up a bunch of stuff that is contrary to fact, then calls it nature and compels humans to worship it ascetically. That's the opposite of looking to fact.

Quote:
We take many type of foods. Few of them can still ne natural eg fruits.
You don't know the difference between nature and your religious beliefs.
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:51 PM   #1827
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No. We went over this. Your religion just makes up a bunch of stuff that is contrary to fact, then calls it nature and compels humans to worship it ascetically. That's the opposite of looking to fact.



You don't know the difference between nature and your religious beliefs.
How can you know a religion in full, if it is neither your religion nor your option and even may not be supporting your preferences? Still facts should be faced at least in generalized areas.

Some direct or indirect clues can be got from this link with dedicated efforts:
Jainism and Science
http://jainworld.com/jainbooks/asceticism/ch26.asp
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:56 PM   #1828
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
How can you know a religion in full...
Straw man.

Quote:
Still facts should be faced at least in generalized areas.
You were shown the facts. You disregarded them in favor of your religion.
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:57 PM   #1829
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Jainism and Science
Are you a scientist? Yes or no.
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:54 PM   #1830
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Are you a scientist? Yes or no.
Your qyestion was not proper. You have not asked, academically qualified or self studding? Former not later yes.
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:55 PM   #1831
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Nature should not be purposeless. It does things to keep it in balance which should also be basis of survival of all its constituents. By creation, maintenance & destruction, it can achieve such balance. We just have to see, how we are supporting it to achieve its balance. Whoever eat other, can depend on it and that will be called as nature of that being--if its basic nature. Evolutionary changes are not basic nature so can bring odds. We can also evolved to modern weapons, still it will not mean, they shall be good for us. Simply look at basic nature for truth and secondary nature for rational.
Oy vey. Nature is purposeless, like it or not. Nature does not seek balance. Balance happens. We did not evolve modern weapons. We invented them. Bad thing to do perhaps, but do not blame evolution. There is no such thing as basic and secondary nature. It's nonsense. Edit to add: cooked foods do not make us lazy. They may at times permit us to be physically lazy since we are able to get more nutrition faster, but they do not make us lazy. People of the greatest diligence and productivity eat cooked food. Do not confuse an option with a result.
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:57 PM   #1832
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Your qyestion was not proper.
Yes it was. But you've assiduously avoided answering it for days.

Quote:
You have not asked, academically qualified or self studding? Former not later yes.
Obviously the former. The actual meaning of scientist, not your attempt to redefine it to avoid the unpleasant answer you know you're going to have to give.

Are you a scientist? Yes or no.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:02 PM   #1833
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Straw man.



You were shown the facts. You disregarded them in favor of your religion.
Disharmony between us is due to: our facts do not matches with other. No end to it.As per me, you have not shown facts to me but I have shown. Just expression of views can not be taken as facts, some valid evidences are required. Minimum, logic from a person well experienced in that area can also be considered. But nothing matches with you in this regard. But still, you are claiming.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:07 PM   #1834
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Oy vey. Nature is purposeless, like it or not. Nature does not seek balance. Balance happens. We did not evolve modern weapons. We invented them. Bad thing to do perhaps, but do not blame evolution. There is no such thing as basic and secondary nature. It's nonsense. Edit to add: cooked foods do not make us lazy. They may at times permit us to be physically lazy since we are able to get more nutrition faster, but they do not make us lazy. People of the greatest diligence and productivity eat cooked food. Do not confuse an option with a result.
We also invented fire and cooking and claim now we are evolved to it. Any inherent sense can match with evolution....primary or secondary. Cooking is secondary nature because it is not since start of our evolution.

Few things with links about Physical vs mental , I indicated in Consciousness/self awareness topic. Read pls.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:07 PM   #1835
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Disharmony between us is due to: our facts do not matches with other.
Because you don't know what facts are or where they come from. You wrongly think your religious beliefs are facts.

Quote:
Just expression of views can not be taken as facts, some valid evidences are required.
Which you have not shown for your claims.

Quote:
Minimum, logic from a person well experienced in that area can also be considered. But nothing matches with you in this regard. But still, you are claiming.
Remember when you had to ask me to define all those logic terms? Now try again to claim I'm the one who isn't well experienced in logic. You really are living in your own little bubble.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:10 PM   #1836
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Cooking is secondary nature because it is not since start of our evolution.
When exactly did humans start evolving?
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:12 PM   #1837
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Yes it was. But you've assiduously avoided answering it for days.



Obviously the former. The actual meaning of scientist, not your attempt to redefine it to avoid the unpleasant answer you know you're going to have to give.

Are you a scientist? Yes or no.
Provided. We may need to be practical along with theoretical. Both statistical and practical observations hold value in scientific and every field studies. scientists were basically not qualified certified entities. Take it in true sense not in apparent words. Take it in concept not as entity.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:13 PM   #1838
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Provided.
No, I don't see where you answered yes or no. Are you a scientist? Yes or no.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:13 PM   #1839
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
When exactly did humans start evolving?
From energy transformation. Most prime unless we also assume energy could had also been created.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:17 PM   #1840
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
From energy transformation. Most prime unless we also assume energy could had also been created.
And when did humans stop evolving?
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