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Old 19th October 2017, 04:33 PM   #841
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You appear to be confused. You asked "Who the heck do {you collective} think {you collective} are that anyone anywhere should be asking {you collective} for forgiveness?" I explained who the heck I think I am, and that I'm not asking anyone to ask my forgiveness.

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
{I collective} am someone who has already been hurt by the self-absorbed, delusional con man that they fell for, because we all have. {I collective} read the news every day in fear of what's next, hoping that it's no worse than further disgrace and degradation of his office -- we can recover from that -- but {I collective} am pretty sure we haven't seen the worst. All I'm saying is that if any Trump supporters realize what a horrible mistake they made and they feel they should apologize to {us collective}, well, I was raised a Christian.
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Old 19th October 2017, 07:08 PM   #842
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The framing has allowed people to focus on the personal persecution angle, and throw in some religious shade, rather than focus on the meat of the question.

'Forgive' is to vague. As it seems to be used here, 'trust' is a better aspect. 'Will you ever trust Trump voters?' is a question with more utility.

And no, not unless they see their mistake and take steps to remedy it. They've done something profoundly stupid and harmful and most justify and take delight in it because it's made others angry. When people show you who they are, believe them. 80% of Republicans are willing to get in bed with Trump for various reasons, which means it would be foolish to trust them. In that regard, the US is getting what it deserves. No one would be smart to trust us right now.
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Old 19th October 2017, 08:03 PM   #843
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The framing has allowed people to focus on the personal persecution angle, and throw in some religious shade, rather than focus on the meat of the question.

'Forgive' is to vague. As it seems to be used here, 'trust' is a better aspect. 'Will you ever trust Trump voters?' is a question with more utility.

And no, not unless they see their mistake and take steps to remedy it. They've done something profoundly stupid and harmful and most justify and take delight in it because it's made others angry. When people show you who they are, believe them. 80% of Republicans are willing to get in bed with Trump for various reasons, which means it would be foolish to trust them. In that regard, the US is getting what it deserves. No one would be smart to trust us right now.
I don't know why it's so hard for anti-Trumpers to understand that it is quite rational, for those with a conservative or libertarian ideology, to be quite happy with Trump so far. His gaping character flaws and absurd utterances dominate the news, but when it comes to actions, he is, so far, nothing short of a miracle, especially in comparison to what a President Hillary Clinton would have done.

For example, Trump has essentially ceded the authority to nominate federal judges to his Chief Counsel Don McGahn, who has consulted extensively with conservative think tanks which have been preparing for this moment for decades. Now that the Senate filibuster for confirmations has been done away with (thank you Harry Reid!), Trump is able stock the federal judiciary with extremely well-qualified conservatives. If Hillary were President, it would have gone 180 degrees the other way. There is literally nothing more important for constraining the growth of government long after Trump has become a distant memory.

On regulation and taxes, Trump's actions (or at least intentions) are fully aligned with mine and that of most libertarians. On immigration, on Arab-Israeli peace, on the fight against ISIS, on how to handle North Korea, and on his desire for a more constructive relationship with Russia, his policies are fully aligned with mine (and are therefore the correct ones ). I doubt Hillary's policies would be. Even in those areas where I think she agrees with me deep-down (on foreign policy, for example), I think she would be cowed by the Democratic base to pursue a leftist agenda.

Is Trump more of a jackass than I thought he would be? Yeah, definitely. I thought he had the ability to take down the boorishness a level or two. In fact, he seems to have gotten worse, probably in large part as a defense mechanism against the unrelenting hostility that the media and the Democratic party have shown. Regardless, his verbal nonsense is a secondary concern for me. A distant second. The only real effect it has on me IRL is that I have to hear constant whining about how stupid and racist and heartless and crazy Trump supporters are, and therefore have to keep my mouth shut and just endure it. But you know what? I had to do that when George W. Bush was President too. And I suspect I would have had to do it no matter which Republican ended up being President.
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Old 20th October 2017, 02:17 AM   #844
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Wait. Why would libertarians want conservative judges, who tend to be more anti-choice, particularly on topics like abortion and marriage? Why would libertarians support deregulation that's hurts businesses and the environment?
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Old 20th October 2017, 02:52 AM   #845
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Wait. Why would libertarians want conservative judges, who tend to be more anti-choice, particularly on topics like abortion and marriage? Why would libertarians support deregulation that's hurts businesses and the environment?
Because, for many of them, it's either that or communism.
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Old 20th October 2017, 05:10 AM   #846
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Wait. Why would libertarians want conservative judges, who tend to be more anti-choice, particularly on topics like abortion and marriage? Why would libertarians support deregulation that's hurts businesses and the environment?
In the context of the federal judiciary, "conservative" refers to one's constitutional philosophy (e.g. originalist or textualist) and implies a judge that won't find new and creative ways of finding justification for the expansion of federal power in the "penumbras" of the constitution.

As far as abortion and gay marriage go, I think most libertarians would view those issues as best left to the states. Libertarians are actually split on abortion. The fundamental problem there is not one of choice but rather where human life begins and therefore deserves protection from the state.

While no doubt most libertarians are in favor of gay marriage (while at the same time being wary of a state role - let alone a federal role - in marriage at all), most are probably also against forcing Christian bakers and photographers to participate in gay weddings.
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Old 20th October 2017, 06:48 AM   #847
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
...In fact, he seems to have gotten worse, probably in large part as a defense mechanism against the unrelenting hostility that the media and the Democratic party have shown.
Corker, McCain, Sasser, Heller, Jeb Bush, George Bush 2, Rubio, George Will, Bill Kristol, Joe Scarborough ... I could go on at great length naming prominent republicans/conservatives who have fiercely opposed Trump, in a way that we've never seen before.

Media and Democrats. Yah sure.
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Old 20th October 2017, 06:50 AM   #848
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...b07f12a993.jpg You mean those same people who have been raking Weinstein over the goals this all week?
I be thunk you meant coals there!!! (The emboldened and embiggened!!!!!)
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:01 AM   #849
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I be thunk you meant coals there!!! (The emboldened and embiggened!!!!!)
*mutters something about autocorrect*
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:03 AM   #850
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I don't know why it's so hard for anti-Trumpers to understand that it is quite rational, for those with a conservative or libertarian ideology, to be quite happy with Trump so far. His gaping character flaws and absurd utterances dominate the news, but when it comes to actions, he is, so far, nothing short of a miracle, especially in comparison to what a President Hillary Clinton would have done.

For example, Trump has essentially ceded the authority to nominate federal judges to his Chief Counsel Don McGahn, who has consulted extensively with conservative think tanks which have been preparing for this moment for decades. Now that the Senate filibuster for confirmations has been done away with (thank you Harry Reid!), Trump is able stock the federal judiciary with extremely well-qualified conservatives. If Hillary were President, it would have gone 180 degrees the other way. There is literally nothing more important for constraining the growth of government long after Trump has become a distant memory.

On regulation and taxes, Trump's actions (or at least intentions) are fully aligned with mine and that of most libertarians. On immigration, on Arab-Israeli peace, on the fight against ISIS, on how to handle North Korea, and on his desire for a more constructive relationship with Russia, his policies are fully aligned with mine (and are therefore the correct ones ). I doubt Hillary's policies would be. Even in those areas where I think she agrees with me deep-down (on foreign policy, for example), I think she would be cowed by the Democratic base to pursue a leftist agenda.

Is Trump more of a jackass than I thought he would be? Yeah, definitely. I thought he had the ability to take down the boorishness a level or two. In fact, he seems to have gotten worse, probably in large part as a defense mechanism against the unrelenting hostility that the media and the Democratic party have shown. Regardless, his verbal nonsense is a secondary concern for me. A distant second. The only real effect it has on me IRL is that I have to hear constant whining about how stupid and racist and heartless and crazy Trump supporters are, and therefore have to keep my mouth shut and just endure it. But you know what? I had to do that when George W. Bush was President too. And I suspect I would have had to do it no matter which Republican ended up being President.
Just like a consequentialist libertarian to completely ignore us deontological libertarians.
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:09 AM   #851
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I don't know why it's so hard for anti-Trumpers to understand that it is quite rational,
TL : DR

Cliffs notes version - hateful, ignorant morons finally have the ability to put action to their hateful, ignorant policies.

Yay!
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:49 AM   #852
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
TL : DR

Cliffs notes version - hateful, ignorant morons finally have the ability to put action to their hateful, ignorant policies.

Yay!
Ooh, the other side are the worst! Curse them for their abusive rhetoric! I hate those unself-aware ignorant morons and their divisive hate!
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Old 20th October 2017, 08:34 AM   #853
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Ooh, the other side are the worst! Curse them for their abusive rhetoric! I hate those unself-aware ignorant morons and their divisive hate!

"Ditto".
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Old 20th October 2017, 08:39 AM   #854
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Ooh, the other side are the worst! Curse them for their abusive rhetoric! I hate those unself-aware ignorant morons and their divisive hate!
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"Ditto".
On this board? There's no comparison. The abuse and hate come overwhelmingly from the left.
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Old 20th October 2017, 08:41 AM   #855
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"Ditto".
Don't try and make this divisiveness bipartisan!
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Old 20th October 2017, 08:48 AM   #856
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Just like a consequentialist libertarian to completely ignore us deontological libertarians.
I like to think of a deontological libertarian as just a consequentialist with a really long time horizon. An impractically long time horizon in my view, although perhaps that's the point.
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Old 20th October 2017, 09:15 AM   #857
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
On this board? There's no comparison. The abuse and hate come overwhelmingly from the left.
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Don't try and make this divisiveness bipartisan!

Well.

There's a cultural reference which has faded into the fog of time rather quickly.
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Old 20th October 2017, 09:16 AM   #858
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
On this board? There's no comparison. The abuse and hate come overwhelmingly from the left.
Uh, yea. Because the stupidity and hatefulness come overwhelmingly from the right. Its pretty simple.
Don't propose or support policies that are designed to hurt the most vulnerable.
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Old 20th October 2017, 09:16 AM   #859
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Why would libertarians support deregulation that's hurts businesses and the environment?
No such thing. The central tenet of the faith is that regulation is always a net harm, so deregulation is always a net good. The "faith" part comes in because in those instances where reality contradicts the ideology, it is reality that is incorrect.
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Old 20th October 2017, 09:31 AM   #860
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
No such thing. The central tenet of the faith is that regulation is always a net harm, so deregulation is always a net good. The "faith" part comes in because in those instances where reality contradicts the ideology, it is reality that is incorrect.
Unless you are a deontological libertarian.
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Old 20th October 2017, 04:22 PM   #861
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You appear to be confused. You asked "Who the heck do {you collective} think {you collective} are that anyone anywhere should be asking {you collective} for forgiveness?" I explained who the heck I think I am, and that I'm not asking anyone to ask my forgiveness.
Fair point, you are correct.

I still hold that the presumption of being in a position to grant such unasked-for forgiveness represents a remarkable level of politics-as-religion.
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Old 20th October 2017, 06:47 PM   #862
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Fair point, you are correct.

I still hold that the presumption of being in a position to grant such unasked-for forgiveness represents a remarkable level of politics-as-religion.
Forgiveness is not a concept limited to religion. When others make a poor decision which negatively affects those around them, they may be forgiven or not, regardless of one's religious beliefs.

It is more akin to a moral concept in its common usage.

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Old 20th October 2017, 06:55 PM   #863
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Forgiveness is not a concept limited to religion. When others make a poor decision which negatively affects those around them, they may be forgiven or not, regardless of one's religious beliefs.

It is more akin to a mortal concept in its common usage.

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Do the falcons need to forgive the Patriots?
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:22 PM   #864
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do the falcons need to forgive the Patriots?
My, an insightful question indeed. Why, let me think carefully on that and get back to you.

Yes, very thought-provoking. How clever.

Be right back with my answer. You just wait right here.
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Old 20th October 2017, 07:29 PM   #865
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Wait. Why would libertarians want conservative judges, who tend to be more anti-choice, particularly on topics like abortion and marriage? Why would libertarians support deregulation that's hurts businesses and the environment?
Why would thoughtful people with informed opinions differing from yours consider your thoughts more insightful than theirs, Upchurch?

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Old 29th October 2017, 10:21 AM   #866
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do the falcons need to forgive the Patriots?
When the Patriots win, the Falcons don't lose their healthcare.
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:49 AM   #867
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Here's the issue.

If you can't "forgive" (however you want to conceptualize that) people who voted for Trump/Republicans/Conservatives that gives them zero reason to even consider switching sides and voting for your preferred candidate.

If voting for Trump/Republicans/Conservatives in the past is a permanent stain that taints one forever... why should they ever even bother trying to come over to your side or meet you halfway now or in the future?

The sin of voting for the "wrong" guy has to be forgivable or you're leaving people no reason to come over to your side. If, on an individual or group level "Well you voted for Trump!" gets thrown back in their face they might as well keep voting for him (or the broader Republican/Conservative party).
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:11 AM   #868
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Here's the issue.

If you can't "forgive" (however you want to conceptualize that) people who voted for Trump/Republicans/Conservatives that gives them zero reason to even consider switching sides and voting for your preferred candidate.

If voting for Trump/Republicans/Conservatives in the past is a permanent stain that taints one forever... why should they ever even bother trying to come over to your side or meet you halfway now or in the future?

The sin of voting for the "wrong" guy has to be forgivable or you're leaving people no reason to come over to your side. If, on an individual or group level "Well you voted for Trump!" gets thrown back in their face they might as well keep voting for him (or the broader Republican/Conservative party).
Why would we want people so devoid of reason on "our" side? Let them stay with the filth they so adore.
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:42 AM   #869
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Why would we want people so devoid of reason on "our" side? Let them stay with the filth they so adore.
You may wish to ponder the wise words of Adlai Stevenson when he was told he had the vote of every intelligent person in the United States. (He answered:Its not enough. I need a majority.)
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:00 PM   #870
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Why would we want people so devoid of reason on "our" side? Let them stay with the filth they so adore.
Won't someone please please please think of the racists?
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:06 PM   #871
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Why would we want people so devoid of reason on "our" side? Let them stay with the filth they so adore.

That attitude loses elections in case you didn't notice. Nobody likes a hater. Why would anyone want to associate with people who have that attitude?

It's why I end up "defending" Trump here so much - something I rarely do in the real world. No, really, I don't. It's the feverish hate from the left that pushes people away. Maybe because people don't want to be associated with angry jerks even if they are right. Or maybe you're just wrong sometimes, something you (meaning the angry left) can't seem to consider.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:11 PM   #872
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
That attitude loses elections in case you didn't notice. Nobody likes a hater. Why would anyone want to associate with people who have that attitude?

It's why I end up "defending" Trump here so much - something I rarely do in the real world. No, really, I don't. It's the feverish hate from the left that pushes people away. Maybe because people don't want to be associated with angry jerks even if they are right. Or maybe you're just wrong sometimes, something you (meaning the angry left) can't seem to consider.
To be fair, some people vote for those who join in chants of "lock her up", so some haters win elections.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:15 PM   #873
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
That attitude loses elections in case you didn't notice. Nobody likes a hater. Why would anyone want to associate with people who have that attitude?

It's why I end up "defending" Trump here so much - something I rarely do in the real world. No, really, I don't. It's the feverish hate from the left that pushes people away. Maybe because people don't want to be associated with angry jerks even if they are right. Or maybe you're just wrong sometimes, something you (meaning the angry left) can't seem to consider.
I am constantly amazed by this. With rare exception, progressives just can't see how there utter lack of compassion or sympathy will continue to loose them elections. If you make it clear how it doesn't matter what a person does, you'll still think of them as repugnant, why would they change their mind?
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:16 PM   #874
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
If you can't "forgive" (however you want to conceptualize that) people who voted for Trump/Republicans/Conservatives that gives them zero reason to even consider switching sides and voting for your preferred candidate.
Assuming voters are exclusively driven by social motivations rather than probable policy outcomes.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:24 PM   #875
The_Animus
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Here's the issue.

If you can't "forgive" (however you want to conceptualize that) people who voted for Trump/Republicans/Conservatives that gives them zero reason to even consider switching sides and voting for your preferred candidate.

If voting for Trump/Republicans/Conservatives in the past is a permanent stain that taints one forever... why should they ever even bother trying to come over to your side or meet you halfway now or in the future?

The sin of voting for the "wrong" guy has to be forgivable or you're leaving people no reason to come over to your side. If, on an individual or group level "Well you voted for Trump!" gets thrown back in their face they might as well keep voting for him (or the broader Republican/Conservative party).
That's basically the premise of last weeks episode of South Park.

Generally for someone to be forgiven, the person has to admit they've done something negative which they regret and try not to do again. Except Trump supporters don't admit or regret. Maybe they would if people didn't constantly insult them about it and forgave them. But then we're back to people not liking to forgive those who don't repent.

A bit of a catch 22
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:23 PM   #876
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
That attitude loses elections in case you didn't notice. Nobody likes a hater. Why would anyone want to associate with people who have that attitude?

It's why I end up "defending" Trump here so much - something I rarely do in the real world. No, really, I don't. It's the feverish hate from the left that pushes people away. Maybe because people don't want to be associated with angry jerks even if they are right. Or maybe you're just wrong sometimes, something you (meaning the angry left) can't seem to consider.
I'm not "left". I simply call things as I see them. Right now I see a president who has preyed on the less able his entire life. Right now I see that after being elected, it's even worse. Right now I see a child molester about to win a senate seat even after these allegations came to light. That those two things are real today proves beyond a doubt that the conservative movement that I used to follow has ended, and has been replaced with vile people, gullible people and vile gullible people.
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:31 PM   #877
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I'm a little confused. perhaps it's only my own intellectual deficiency, but are you saying that blue collar Trump voters are less intelligent than white collar Trump voters? Or that Trump voters are less intelligent than Clinton voters? Or that Trump voters have stunted intelligence?

Sometimes I myself have felt that Trump voters were stupid. But then I back away from my reactivity and refuse to paint everyone the same prejudicial color.

I liked Beerina's cartoon, because it called out a certain dismissal of the plight and feelings of a very large number of working Americans.

I am going to go on record right here that I'm not going to be so condescending as to even "forgive" Trump voters. I respect each individual.

True there are some who aren't very bright, but I've decided not to hold my nose in the air based on my dubious intellectual superiority.
I do understand your point . But the problem with those in the bolded above is that they did not pay attention to what was happening with jobs in the US and what was being produced and/or needed was no longer what they did and knew how to do AND the jobs they still could do were being outsourced - because they could be done cheaper elsewhere. The government has very limited ability/right to force companies to pay more for labor or put production where it might provide jobs but is not efficient for the company - not to mention that those who want things they need to be cheaper do not seem to realize they can have cheaper clothing (etc.) but not if it is produced here. Not the people's fault or the companies fault, just where it was pointed for a good while...........
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:41 PM   #878
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
This is just simplistic, intellectually weak thinking. Prove Dems want to make the US communist or regard Marx as a hero.
I would firmly support Groucho Marx for President over the orange tird or Karl Marx!!!
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:45 PM   #879
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
Mod Warning Play nice, people. Don't get personal with each other.
Posted By:Agatha
See this book: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Perconel...With+a+Chicken
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:48 PM   #880
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I would firmly support Groucho Marx for President over the orange tird or Karl Marx!!!
But you won't graduate from using puerile terms like 'orange tird' or 'republikers'
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