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Tags Graham Hancock , joe rogan , michael shermer , zahi hawass

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Old 9th October 2017, 06:42 AM   #321
Craig B
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Are microspherials negative evidence?

Are the scablands negative evidence?

Maybe you could give me another example negative evidence, and how that squares with Shermer saying someone is well researched and well reasoned?
The flood that produced the scablands is well understood, and has a perfectly natural origin. It is not evidence for the existence of an advanced civilisation. But civilisations do always leave evidence of their existence - heaps of it - and this is not to be found. Pyramids are evidence of social organisation, not of advanced technology.

Scablands are evidence for end-ice-age floods, when meltwater was suddenly released in huge volume by the thawing of permafrost features that were previously holding back lakes.
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Old 9th October 2017, 10:17 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Seriously, you SHOULD ABSOLUTELY watch the video...

A. One located near the coast or rivers...

B. One that mastered agriculture.

C. We are talking about the period before hunter gatherers, around 12,500 bc.
Why do people promoting ideas about ancient civilisations, or free energy machines, always insist that they have videos that explain everything, and we have to watch them. Why can't they simply set down their arguments and list their sources of information in writing?
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Old 9th October 2017, 12:51 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Nope, the causes and results of a global flood.
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Nope, flood again.
So no positive evidence of advanced civilizations, just like Shermer claimed.

I hope you can see the problem here.
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Old 9th October 2017, 06:38 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
B. One that mastered agriculture.

C. We are talking about the period before hunter gatherers, around 12,500 bc.
Fascinating. Tell me why the legacy genetic evidence from selected breeding and agricultural species doesn't reflect that time frame. Was it something to do with aliens?
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Old 10th October 2017, 08:43 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
You do realise we have thousands of years of civilisations living in river flood plains, all with lots of lovely artifacts.



Another flood washed away evidence of the first flood? Well, not all evidence, just the bits that might have actually pointed to another civilisation...
Yes, and if you look off the coast, you'll find many places have been consumed by rising seas...
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Old 10th October 2017, 08:54 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Yes, and if you look off the coast, you'll find many places have been consumed by rising seas...
Um, I think you missed my point.

You said there was a wall of debris from the flood in question.
When asked whether there were artifacts of the civilisation in question in that wall of debris, you replied that there was a another flood.

Did this other flood (for which we appear to not have evidence) therefore only manage to wash away the artifacts we would expect to find (and do find in other floods), but magically not wash away this wall of debris?

Can you see the issue here?
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Old 10th October 2017, 10:00 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The flood that produced the scablands is well understood, and has a perfectly natural origin. It is not evidence for the existence of an advanced civilisation. But civilisations do always leave evidence of their existence - heaps of it - and this is not to be found. Pyramids are evidence of social organisation, not of advanced technology.

Scablands are evidence for end-ice-age floods, when meltwater was suddenly released in huge volume by the thawing of permafrost features that were previously holding back lakes.
Yes, and this flood date corresponds with Plato's flooding of Atlantis...

The G.T. ruins are evidence that agriculture existed before 12,500, and afterwards we had a period of hunting and gathering before re-mastering agriculture.
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Old 10th October 2017, 10:02 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Um, I think you missed my point.

You said there was a wall of debris from the flood in question.
When asked whether there were artifacts of the civilisation in question in that wall of debris, you replied that there was a another flood.

Did this other flood (for which we appear to not have evidence) therefore only manage to wash away the artifacts we would expect to find (and do find in other floods), but magically not wash away this wall of debris?

Can you see the issue here?
Yes, I am talking about ruins, you want artifact, clay pots, other cultural debris...

If a culture was located on the coast, and was inundated by a flood that consumed it utterly and completely, where might one find artifacts from said culture?
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Old 10th October 2017, 10:04 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Fascinating. Tell me why the legacy genetic evidence from selected breeding and agricultural species doesn't reflect that time frame. Was it something to do with aliens?
Please consider that G.T. IS evidence of the genetic selective breeding you seek.

There wheat began it's first steps into our agriculture.
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Old 10th October 2017, 10:05 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Why do people promoting ideas about ancient civilisations, or free energy machines, always insist that they have videos that explain everything, and we have to watch them. Why can't they simply set down their arguments and list their sources of information in writing?
*Why do people take part in a discussion of a video, without having watched said video???

The world may never know...
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Old 10th October 2017, 11:09 AM   #331
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I watched the video (disclaimer: as I do of most JR podcasts) and I found it imminently interesting...but lacking in some aspects. I contacted my college roommate who is a geologist/climatologist working for the USGS in studies relating to flooding and its historic effects. He wasn't convinced either.

Question for KotA: GT is big. I don't believe that it is outside the purview of any particular group to make over vast periods of time, but I'll concede its big. How about something that is 13171 miles long? Would that be big? Would that require some magical knowledge to create or could it be created with general knowledge, manpower and time? Why is the Great Wall of China less mystical? Could it be the argument made upthread....prehistory versus modern time...allowing us the demystify the production because we have accounts?

Just because something is impressive doesn't make it magical or evidence that everything we think is wrong. Frankly, I find Wally imminently impressive, but his accomplishments using minimalist production equipment makes me think that we underestimate what can be accomplished with good, old fashioned elbow grease and a large work force with time on their hands.
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Old 10th October 2017, 11:30 AM   #332
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Also, please read the recently (I believe September 27, 2017) posted article by Marc Defant which critiques the analysis by Hancock. I know you will read this because I have watched the video, as you requested and, in the spirit of fairness, you will read my cited source.

"Marc Defant is a tenured full professor of geochemistry at the University of South Florida and studies volcanoes and the origin of the continental crust. He has received funding from the National Science Foundation, National Geographic, the National Academy of Sciences, and the American Chemical Society. He has published research in the renowned scientific journal Nature and many other scientific journals and has written magazine articles and a book on the history of the universe, earth, and life (Voyage of Discovery: From the Big Bang to the Ice Age). Defant has also served as editor or coeditor of several scientific journals." (Quoted from Mr. Defant's website, in all fairness - www.marcdefant.com/about/)

https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room...s-of-the-gods/

Last edited by Crawtator; 10th October 2017 at 11:32 AM. Reason: Attribution for Mr. Defant's qualifications to Mr. Defant's website
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Old 10th October 2017, 11:55 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Yes, and this flood date corresponds with Plato's flooding of Atlantis...

The G.T. ruins are evidence that agriculture existed before 12,500, and afterwards we had a period of hunting and gathering before re-mastering agriculture.
Platos dates for Atlantis are not authentic. He had no way of dating events over millennia. No carbon dating. No historical records stretching over such periods.

If the GT ruins are evidence for how agriculture predates hunting and gathering, please explain in what form they contain this evidence, and specifically what it consists of.
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Old 10th October 2017, 12:26 PM   #334
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I find it hard to believe that this civilization hasn't left so much as an old razor blade or broken tea pot.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 10th October 2017 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 10th October 2017, 12:28 PM   #335
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Surely their old mines and quarries have survived?
Why don't we find any old mine shafts or galleries?
Even a collapsed mine gallery or a goafed out face leaves a record in the strata.
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Old 10th October 2017, 05:27 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Please consider that G.T. IS evidence of the genetic selective breeding you seek.
No. It isn't. The chronological genetic evidence is in the DNA of the resulting strains from selectively bred species of wild strains 1000 years after Gobekli Tepe.

You can't claim there was a complex agricultural society before agricultural selective breeding, as evidenced in DNA, commenced. That's how science works.
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Old 10th October 2017, 05:45 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
B. One that mastered agriculture.

C. We are talking about the period before hunter gatherers, around 12,500 bc.
What strains of grain were from this magical period? Are you suggesting a flood destroyed all seeds and all genetic evidence of earlier agricultural selective breeding?
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Old 11th October 2017, 01:21 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
What strains of grain were from this magical period? Are you suggesting a flood destroyed all seeds and all genetic evidence of earlier agricultural selective breeding?
Of course he is. As usual with such claims the lack of evidence is the evidence.
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:06 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
I watched the video (disclaimer: as I do of most JR podcasts) and I found it imminently interesting...but lacking in some aspects. I contacted my college roommate who is a geologist/climatologist working for the USGS in studies relating to flooding and its historic effects. He wasn't convinced either.

Question for KotA: GT is big. I don't believe that it is outside the purview of any particular group to make over vast periods of time, but I'll concede its big. How about something that is 13171 miles long? Would that be big? Would that require some magical knowledge to create or could it be created with general knowledge, manpower and time? Why is the Great Wall of China less mystical? Could it be the argument made upthread....prehistory versus modern time...allowing us the demystify the production because we have accounts?

Just because something is impressive doesn't make it magical or evidence that everything we think is wrong. Frankly, I find Wally imminently impressive, but his accomplishments using minimalist production equipment makes me think that we underestimate what can be accomplished with good, old fashioned elbow grease and a large work force with time on their hands.
When were the two sites created, comparatively speaking?

ETA: Thank You for watching the video, TEHN taking part in the discussion.
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:09 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Platos dates for Atlantis are not authentic. He had no way of dating events over millennia. No carbon dating. No historical records stretching over such periods.

If the GT ruins are evidence for how agriculture predates hunting and gathering, please explain in what form they contain this evidence, and specifically what it consists of.
Accurate, sure, but not authentic...?

If you mean Plato wasn't alive to witness it, I agree.
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:11 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I find it hard to believe that this civilization hasn't left so much as an old razor blade or broken tea pot.
I find it astounding that their ruins don't count...
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:21 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I find it astounding that their ruins don't count...
A few ruins tell us that someone built them. It says nothing about an 'advanced civilisation'
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:41 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I find it astounding that their ruins don't count...
I'll say it as often as I have to. Pyramids and suchlike things are big constructions of stone. They are not in themselves technically advanced, so their existence is not proof of technological advancement. It is proof of social organisation. I'll write that again and again if you require me to, or until you feel less astounded by it.
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:45 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Accurate, sure, but not authentic...?

If you mean Plato wasn't alive to witness it, I agree.
I hope you also agree that he had no chain of chronology stretching back ten thousand years, and he had no means of determining the ages of artefacts, as we can do now with carbon 14 tests. Therefore he could not make accurate estimates of the dates of events - even real events, let alone mythical ones - that he thought had occurred in the distant past.
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Old 11th October 2017, 06:14 AM   #345
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Interestingly, the October author of the month on the GH forum prposes (he sayshe knows) that a comet brought most of the water which caused the global flood. A couple of us have challenged this!
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Old 11th October 2017, 07:24 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
A few ruins tell us that someone built them. It says nothing about an 'advanced civilisation'
"Ancient ruins tell us someone advanced built them. They say everything about how advanced the civilizations truly were."

*Fixed it for ya.
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Old 11th October 2017, 07:25 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I'll say it as often as I have to. Pyramids and suchlike things are big constructions of stone. They are not in themselves technically advanced, so their existence is not proof of technological advancement. It is proof of social organisation. I'll write that again and again if you require me to, or until you feel less astounded by it.
Pfft...

"Social organizaron requires technological advancement, especially agriculture."
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Old 11th October 2017, 09:14 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Pfft...

"Social organizaron requires technological advancement, especially agriculture."
At 2600 BCE agriculture was well established in various places. The technology require was an ox-drawn wooden plough. The ancient Peruvians had agriculture without draught animals or metals or writing, and they could build impressive cut-stone monuments too.
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Old 11th October 2017, 10:03 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
"Ancient ruins tell us someone advanced built them. They say everything about how advanced the civilizations truly were."

*Fixed it for ya.
So where are the rest of the ruins? Where are the remains of roads. earhworks, quarries, cuttings, mines, rubbish heaps, sewers, drains etc etc.

To think that every trace of the civilisation was washed away aprt from this one site is stretching beyond breaking point.

We find delicate remains from many thousands of years earlier from small bands of hunter gatherers but not from this 'advanced' civilisation?
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Old 11th October 2017, 02:44 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
At 2600 BCE agriculture was well established in various places. The technology require was an ox-drawn wooden plough. The ancient Peruvians had agriculture without draught animals or metals or writing, and they could build impressive cut-stone monuments too.
What was happening 12,500 bc?

If you are referring to Puma Punku, you'd be mistaken to conclude that those ruins were carved with stone, bronze, or copper chisels...
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Old 11th October 2017, 02:45 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So where are the rest of the ruins? Where are the remains of roads. earhworks, quarries, cuttings, mines, rubbish heaps, sewers, drains etc etc.

To think that every trace of the civilisation was washed away aprt from this one site is stretching beyond breaking point.

We find delicate remains from many thousands of years earlier from small bands of hunter gatherers but not from this 'advanced' civilisation?
You are forgetting the ruins...every trace EXCEPT THEM were vanished.

Under water, perhaps? That tends to happen with flooding.
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Old 11th October 2017, 03:25 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Also, please read the recently (I believe September 27, 2017) posted article by Marc Defant which critiques the analysis by Hancock. I know you will read this because I have watched the video, as you requested and, in the spirit of fairness, you will read my cited source.

"Marc Defant is a tenured full professor of geochemistry at the University of South Florida and studies volcanoes and the origin of the continental crust. He has received funding from the National Science Foundation, National Geographic, the National Academy of Sciences, and the American Chemical Society. He has published research in the renowned scientific journal Nature and many other scientific journals and has written magazine articles and a book on the history of the universe, earth, and life (Voyage of Discovery: From the Big Bang to the Ice Age). Defant has also served as editor or coeditor of several scientific journals." (Quoted from Mr. Defant's website, in all fairness - www.marcdefant.com/about/)

https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room...s-of-the-gods/
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Old 11th October 2017, 03:29 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You are forgetting the ruins...every trace EXCEPT THEM were vanished.

Under water, perhaps? That tends to happen with flooding.
Every Trace? All the other buildings? all their landscaping, quarries, mines etc? Every artifact and sign of this advanced civilisation?

Everything apart from this one place where there are a few carved rocks?
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Old 11th October 2017, 03:30 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Every Trace? All the other buildings? all their landscaping, quarries, mines etc? Every artifact and sign of this advanced civilisation?

Everything apart from this one place where there are a few carved rocks?
yup, until it pops up, this is indeed the case.

ETA: Have you looked at the ruins of Puma Punku??

Last edited by King of the Americas; 11th October 2017 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 11th October 2017, 03:37 PM   #355
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I know I keep repeating the question but I can't believe the answer you keep giving.
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Old 11th October 2017, 03:37 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The flood that produced the scablands is well understood, and has a perfectly natural origin. It is not evidence for the existence of an advanced civilisation. But civilisations do always leave evidence of their existence - heaps of it - and this is not to be found. Pyramids are evidence of social organisation, not of advanced technology.

Scablands are evidence for end-ice-age floods, when meltwater was suddenly released in huge volume by the thawing of permafrost features that were previously holding back lakes.
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. In fact, it sounds like Occam's Razor in practice.
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Old 11th October 2017, 03:41 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. In fact, it sounds like Occam's Razor in practice.
Where did the water go?

*How much did the ocean level change?

**If we raise the sea level would terrestrial springs also well-up?

Last edited by King of the Americas; 11th October 2017 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:55 PM   #358
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Fountains of the deep?

You ask a very good question, where did the water go from this huge flood?
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Old 11th October 2017, 06:56 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Fountains of the deep?

You ask a very good question, where did the water go from this huge flood?
It covered Atlantis.
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Old 12th October 2017, 02:28 AM   #360
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Where was Atlantis?
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