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Tags 2017 elections , Alabama elections , Alabama politics , roy moore

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Old 9th November 2017, 06:50 PM   #81
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The NYT did some digging.

Quote:
Even before the allegations about his personal conduct came to light, Mr. Moore’s judicial record on matters of sexual abuse was a point of contention in the race. During the Republican Senate primary, Mr. Strange ran television commercials attacking Mr. Moore for his vote in a case involving the sexual assault of a child.

Democrats alleged a deeper pattern of leniency in Mr. Moore’s judicial decisions involving sexual predation, pointing to several cases in which the former judge expressed skepticism of young women making allegations of sexual abuse.

In a 2015 case involving a man, David Pittman, who pleaded guilty to raping an underage girl, Mr. Moore wrote in a dissenting opinion that Mr. Pittman should have been allowed to introduce evidence showing his alleged victim’s parents “suspected her of sexual activity,” because it could be relevant to discerning her “alleged motive” in claiming she had been assaulted.

And in a 2014 case, involving a man convicted of abusing two underage girls, Mr. Moore wrote in a dissenting opinion that the man, Sherman Tate, should have had the chance in court to demonstrate that his accusers were romantically involved with each other. Mr. Moore wrote that connection “could be relevant to the victims’ alleged bias against Tate.”
The 2017 GOP has no room for Jeff Flake or John McCain but Roy Moore can come strutting in. This rot runs deep.
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:01 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Sorry, please let me ask to be sure I understand you.

A thirty-two year old man molested a fourteen year old girl, granted some time ago. Let's suppose for the moment that the allegation is true. You don't think it matters? You don't think that this fact would make him a poor choice for the United States Senate?

At least he's not a Clinton? Is that your position?

Thanks for clarifying.
Allegation would be your first clue.
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:06 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
I suspect his silent reference is to Bill Clinton's sexual escapades as POTUS and perhaps the accusations before he got that far. Because unproven accusations that were actually investigated, coupled with a blowjob from a consenting adult are evil while Roy Moore preying on minors isn't a big deal. Not to mention Hillary Clinton's refusal to leave Bill after the Lewinsky infidelity is proof of her sliminess and political aspirations as a power-hungry elitist while people continuing to support Roy Moore is simply recognition of Christian goodness.
I see this from many on the left. An allegation that is no where near proved somehow makes what Clinton actually did seem insignificant. Got it.

Consenting adult, lol. It’s a classic case of a superior taking advantage. Not to mention some very credible women claiming the predator in chief raped them. This Roy Moore issue has no proof what so ever. Maybe that will change.

Last edited by logger; 9th November 2017 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:11 PM   #84
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Steve Bannon seems to think the allegations against Moore are true, doesn't care. He's more concerned about snitching.

Quote:
By the way, the Bezos Amazon Washington Post that dropped that dime on Donald Trump is the same Bezos Amazon Washington that dropped a dime this afternoon on Judge Roy Moore. Is that a coincidence? That's what I mean when I say it's the opposition party. It's purely part of the apparatus of the opposition party. It's not a fair and free media anymore ... I don't like it. But I think it's a strange coincidence.
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:40 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
I know. My apologies; it's a bit of a snarky night for me.
It happens. No matter.

You're a good man to admit your error.
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:42 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Allegation would be your first clue.
You didn't answer the question asked.

Suppose he really did what is alleged. Still worth voting for?
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Old 9th November 2017, 08:17 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You didn't answer the question asked.

Suppose he really did what is alleged. Still worth voting for?
It doesn't even matter. He's already demonstrated his complete disregard for the US Constitution and the rule of law. He belongs in jail, not the Senate.
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Old 9th November 2017, 08:21 PM   #88
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“Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus,” Alabama State Auditor Jim Ziegler told The Washington Examiner. “There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here. Maybe just a little bit unusual.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7f2b9f3d4c3f


Well, they're working out the appeal-to-fundies rhetoric!
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Old 9th November 2017, 08:29 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It doesn't even matter. He's already demonstrated his complete disregard for the US Constitution and the rule of law. He belongs in jail, not the Senate.
Not sure that he belongs in jail (trying to diddle underaged girls notwithstanding), but I otherwise agree with your sentiments.

He's a terrible candidate, a man who was literally removed from the highest court of his state twice, if I understand correctly. A loathsome person, even ignoring sex scandals.

But I bet you a dollar that he's elected nonetheless.

Alabama. It's the state that Okies like me point to in order to feel better about our damned selves. (That and Mississippi, but Mississippi is kinda low hanging fruit. Go to it if you're really desperate, but otherwise Alabama.)
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Old 9th November 2017, 08:30 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7f2b9f3d4c3f


Well, they're working out the appeal-to-fundies rhetoric!
That's the immaculate misconception.

Last edited by Stacko; 9th November 2017 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 9th November 2017, 08:52 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7f2b9f3d4c3f


Well, they're working out the appeal-to-fundies rhetoric!
Someone should teach them about the bible: God made Mary pregnant - and not only was he much older than her, he is also her father...
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Old 9th November 2017, 08:58 PM   #92
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I have a daughter in that age range. I am a straight, white, married (faithfully), Christian man. Moore and his cadre of sanctimonious "family values", "God-fearing" degenerates make me want to vomit, and that was before this latest news broke.

But how about addressing the issue in their terms: if any of them tried to do what Moore did to my daughter, I could provide a "Second Amendment solution", alright.

Corrupt, lying, hypocritical, hateful, ignorant, treasonous degenerates. The lot of them.
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:36 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't think the WAPO would go with something this explosive unless they had some pretty damn good evidence.
They quoted the accusers by name, quoted their friends and relatives by name, and found public records that supported their accounts. Pretty compelling.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...mepage%2Fstory
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:43 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
They quoted the accusers by name, quoted their friends and relatives by name, and found public records that supported their accounts. Pretty compelling.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...mepage%2Fstory

They even verified that the victim's mother actually had a court date in the time frame where she met Moore.
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:57 PM   #95
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Some of the conservatives are trying to deny the charges against Moore. That's expected, even if WaPo made a very strong case.

The sick ones, however, have now openly embraced the idea of a thirty-something man dating a 14 year old. If the Dems are opposed to pederasty, them the GOP will now wholeheartedly support it.

Disgusting people coming out of the woodwork on this one. The accusations against Moore are one thing, but Republican approval of a 32 year old man dating a 14 year old girl really takes the cake. They are far, far gone.
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:21 PM   #96
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Quote:
"Yeah!" Covington County GOP Chairman William Blocker tells me he'd consider voting Moore even if hard proof of sexual abuse emerged.

"There is NO option to support to support Doug Jones, the Democratic nominee. When you do that, you are supporting the entire Democrat party."



The GOP answer to "yellow dog Democrat".

Child molester Republican.
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Old 10th November 2017, 12:22 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
It's a play on, "The only way I can lose this election is if I'm caught in bed with either a dead girl or a live boy."
...and these days I'm not sure whether the latter would necessarily be a problem any more and sadly not because the GOP has become more inclusive and accepting of homosexuality.

Instead if the incident can be portrayed as a one-off or a rare occurrence then they can say that they had been tempted by Satan and ask voters to pray for him. If it is a regular thing then so long as his wife and family stick by and he goes for "treatment" to cure the horrible affliction then that's fine.

The only way it could go wrong would be if it could be shown that the candidate were famously and notoriously a "bottom" - I don't think the GOP likes that kind of thing.
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Old 10th November 2017, 12:32 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It would have been different if they were black and/or under 12 but otherwise, yes. What fifty-something redneck doesn't want to schtup a highschool cheerleader if they had the chance ?
And let's be fair: These harlots were tempting him with their obscene clothes, how can we blame him when these girls were wanton tramps? He should have our sympathy and support because he fell for these whores of Satan.
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Old 10th November 2017, 12:35 AM   #99
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Given the circumstances, even if she was 16 or the age of consent was 14, his conduct was clearly inappropriate and abusive. She was young, inexperienced and clearly out of her comfort zone. Instead of making sure that she was comfortable and okay with escalating the relationship it seems that he merely did whatever he wanted.
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Old 10th November 2017, 12:47 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Given the circumstances, even if she was 16 or the age of consent was 14, his conduct was clearly inappropriate and abusive. She was young, inexperienced and clearly out of her comfort zone. Instead of making sure that she was comfortable and okay with escalating the relationship it seems that he merely did whatever he wanted.
Yes, and ?

This simply isn't a vote loser for Moore. If the allegations are true, his supporters are willing to overlook it because he is a godly man who deserves their support or they simply do not have a problem with a 30somehting man dating a 14-year old (unless it's their daughter and even then perhaps they'd be fine after all the guy's a lawyer, has prospects, and is godly).

The problem that liberals like me have is that we apply our own set of values to a situation and expect that everyone would think and behave similarly. In the same way that liberals would be fine with a homosexual candidate (because we're fine with homosexuality), many conservatives are happy with Moore either because they're fine with his behaviour or because his conservatism and godliness trump any peccadilloes such as dating minors.
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:05 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yes, and ?
I've seen people focusing on the victims age and the fact that it was a crime. This can easily give the impression that his behaviour would've been acceptable only if she were older or if it wasn't a crime. I mean someone was criticised for defending a 32 year old of having consensual sex with a 16 year old, with consensual being in scare quotes. There's no need to turn this into a condemnation of any relationship between adult men and teenagers of either sex, as some seem intent on doing.

As far as I'm concerned his actions were bad enough on their own and whether she was 14, 16, 18, or even 22 years old is pretty much besides the point.
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:19 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I've seen people focusing on the victims age and the fact that it was a crime. This can easily give the impression that his behaviour would've been acceptable only if she were older or if it wasn't a crime. I mean someone was criticised for defending a 32 year old of having consensual sex with a 16 year old, with consensual being in scare quotes. There's no need to turn this into a condemnation of any relationship between adult men and teenagers of either sex, as some seem intent on doing.

As far as I'm concerned his actions were bad enough on their own and whether she was 14, 16, 18, or even 22 years old is pretty much besides the point.
I agree with the sentiments you express, but at best it doesn't seem to be an issue for the GOP.
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:51 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I agree with the sentiments you express, but at best it doesn't seem to be an issue for the GOP.
Doesn't seem to be an issue with the loudest Breitbart/Bannon branch of the GOP. I wonder how many Republicans were watching the days events with a sick stomach wondering how their party had become so sick. I then wonder if they will switch parties, switch votes or just not vote on election day.
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Old 10th November 2017, 03:22 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I agree with the sentiments you express, but at best it doesn't seem to be an issue for the GOP.
Well at least many politically active Republicans have all but stated that they would vote for him no matter what he did.

The national Republican establishment has called for him to step down if the allegations are true but it's not like he's going to court over this since the stature of limiations has already passed. Maybe if he did something similar more recently he'd be in trouble.
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Old 10th November 2017, 06:26 AM   #105
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Quote:
In a statement provided exclusively at the time of publication to Breitbart, the Moore campaign calls the reporting "garbage" and "the very definition of fake news and intentional defamation." It calls the reporting "desperate political attack by the National Democrat Party and the Washington Post on this campaign."

During an MSNBC appearance on Thursday, Breitbart editor Joel Pollack defended the publication's coverage. He said that while "any story of sexual misconduct especially with someone who is under age is very serious," he questioned why the Post included "all kinds of perfectly legitimate relationships as well as all kinds of other political clutter" in the piece.He described Moore's alleged pursuit of relationships with the three other teenagers, who were between 16 and 18, as legitimate."

I think the reason people are questioning not only the motivations, but the accuracy of The Washington Post piece is because they packaged it with all sorts of other stuff that has nothing to do with the question. And so, we'll have to see where this goes," he said.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...on-post-244755

Well i can see why they include information about his sexual advances toward other legal teenagers because it's evidence that it was a consistent pattern. However since nothing about those dates seemed to be abusive or otherwise problematic i find it plausible that used the taboo surrounding age differences in relationships to, implicitly, paint him as a pervert.

They could simply have mentioned that briefly while stressing that they didn't feel pressured or anything.
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Old 10th November 2017, 06:38 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You didn't answer the question asked.

Suppose he really did what is alleged. Still worth voting for?
It’s what Joeseph would have done. Apparently.
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Old 10th November 2017, 06:43 AM   #107
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Given Moore's political history, it's not credible that this did not come up long ago, imo.

Also, such behavior tends to be compulsive, so it seems unlikely that more recent incidents have not come to light.

Maybe they will...

But right now, I can't give this too much credibility.
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Old 10th November 2017, 07:42 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
...and these days I'm not sure whether the latter would necessarily be a problem any more and sadly not because the GOP has become more inclusive and accepting of homosexuality.
Not in Alabama. Most of the evangelical outrage he'll experience is due to the fact the he tried to have premarital sex not that they were minors. It's worth noting:
We should probably talk about how there is a segment of evangelicalism and homeschool culture where the only thing Roy Moore did wrong was initiating sexual contact outside of marriage. 14 year old girls courting adult men isn't entirely uncommon.

Matthew and Maranatha Chapman were promoting child marriage at homeschool conventions up until @HomeschoolAnon and @lovejoyfeminism both made a stink about how Maranatha was only 14 when she married a late-20s Matthew Chapman.

Roy Moore is a symptom of a larger problem in conservative fundamentalist and evangelical circles. It's not a southern problem, it's a fundamentalist problem. Girls who are 14 are seen as potential relationship material. Duck Dynasty guy advocated adult men marrying 16 year olds.

...
The whole thread is worth a read.
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:09 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Given Moore's political history, it's not credible that this did not come up long ago, imo.
What do you base that on?
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:19 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It doesn't even matter. He's already demonstrated his complete disregard for the US Constitution and the rule of law. He belongs in jail, not the Senate.
Which makes him perfect for sub humans like the "religious" right.
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:25 AM   #111
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Mitt Romney on Twitter: "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections. I believe Leigh Corfman. Her account is too serious to ignore. Moore is unfit for office and should step aside."

https://twitter.com/MittRomney/statu...99549376528385
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:34 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Given Moore's political history, it's not credible that this did not come up long ago, imo.

Also, such behavior tends to be compulsive, so it seems unlikely that more recent incidents have not come to light.

Maybe they will...

But right now, I can't give this too much credibility.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What do you base that on?
Same question as Bob.

And more to the point, LTC8K6: How much time does a victim of sexual assault/harassment have to come forward before their accusation is no longer credible?

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Old 10th November 2017, 08:40 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Roy Moore is a symptom of a larger problem in conservative fundamentalist and evangelical circles. It's not a southern problem, it's a fundamentalist problem. Girls who are 14 are seen as potential relationship material. Duck Dynasty guy advocated adult men marrying 16 year olds
There's a Swedish term for middle aged men and beyond that are often desperate for noticeably younger women (or men): gubbsjuka which a literal translation would be something like "old man's sickness". Then again such men, at least in Sweden, aren't really interested in marriage as much as a casual sexual relationship.
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:41 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Same question as Bob.

And more to the point, LTC8K6: How much time does a victim of sexual assault/harassment have to come forward before their accusation is no longer credible?
Depends on the alleged perpetrator. If it's a politician from the party I support or a public figure that I admire then unless the accusation is made within 24 hours with reams of corroborating evidence and unless the accused fesses up immediately.

OTOH it's a politician from the other party or a public figure I dislike then there is no story too old or too ridiculous to be taken at face value.

......at least that's how the GOP seems to operate
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:41 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...on-post-244755

Well i can see why they include information about his sexual advances toward other legal teenagers because it's evidence that it was a consistent pattern. However since nothing about those dates seemed to be abusive or otherwise problematic i find it plausible that used the taboo surrounding age differences in relationships to, implicitly, paint him as a pervert.
.....
What? It's not just a question of whether a crime was committed. It also reveals a lot about the integrity and morality of someone who publicly, loudly claims to be a paragon of integrity and morality. After all, the guy was a married father when he was hitting on teenagers.
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:49 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Given Moore's political history, it's not credible that this did not come up long ago, imo.

Also, such behavior tends to be compulsive, so it seems unlikely that more recent incidents have not come to light.

Maybe they will...

But right now, I can't give this too much credibility.

Read the Post story, with numerous sources and references to public records, and get back to us. It shouldn't need to be explained to you why women don't announce being abused by a powerful man. In this case, these women didn't call a press conference; Post reporters heard the rumors and followed the trail.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...mepage%2Fstory
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:57 AM   #117
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"Why don't more victims come forward?"

Quote:
State Rep. Ed Henry lashed out at Roy Moore’s accusers and Republicans who said the U.S. Senate candidate should back out of the special election in an interview Thursday evening with The Times.

Henry, R-Hartselle, who represents a portion of Cullman County, said he suspects the timing of the stories told by five women about Moore’s alleged sexual advancements 40 years ago, as told to The Washington Post, are politically motivated as the Dec. 12 special election nears. Moore will face Democrat Doug Jones, a former U.S. attorney.

“The idea that accusations like this would stop his campaign is ludicrous. If this was a habit, like you’ve read with Bill Cosby and millions of dollars paid to settle cases and years of witnesses, that would be one thing,” Henry said. “You cannot tell me there hasn’t been an opportunity through the years to make these accusations with as many times as he’s (Moore) run (for office) and been in the news.

Henry said he believes legal action should be considered against Moore’s accusers, finding their story unbelievable.

“If they believe this man is predatory, they are guilty of allowing him to exist for 40 years. I think someone should prosecute and go after them. You can’t be a victim 40 years later, in my opinion,” Henry said.
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:57 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What do you base that on?
It's just my opinion.

It also seems odd that he went no further than her underwear if he was a sexual predator.
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Old 10th November 2017, 09:01 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What? It's not just a question of whether a crime was committed. It also reveals a lot about the integrity and morality of someone who publicly, loudly claims to be a paragon of integrity and morality. After all, the guy was a married father when he was hitting on teenagers.
Really? From what i can tell he wasn't married when he was hitting on any of the individuals in the post story. He married a 24 year old when he was 38 and the allegations occurred when he was in his "early 30's".

At least with regards to the youngest of the girls it seems clear he wanted to have sex with her so that would attempted fornication, which is bad. Of course his public persona is probably mostly an act and i wouldn't be surprised if he didn't believe any of the nonsense he says.
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Old 10th November 2017, 09:03 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It's just my opinion.

It also seems odd that he went no further than her underwear if he was a sexual predator.
So the fact that he's not a rapist means none of the allegations could be true? You could just as well argue that if the accusations were all lies, the women would have alleged much worse behavior.
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