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Old 29th October 2017, 09:03 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
Looks like just a pair of clueless numptys who set out unprepared and were win-the-lottery lucky to have been found. I wont be surprised to see their story sold to the highest bidder sometime in the near future and I bet it'll be as factually accurate as "Bravo Two Zero".

The advice they got in Hawaii couldn't have been all that great, otherwise it would have included the words "don't do it!"

We don't know they didn't get such advice.

It might have been right before the "Pack as much food as you can." that they were willing to admit to. Kind of along the lines of "Well, if you're going to do it anyway ...".
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Old 29th October 2017, 10:33 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I haven't seen it mentioned but does anyone know if they are a couple - as in a romantic relationship?
<quagmire>Giggity!</quagmire>
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Old 29th October 2017, 01:55 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I haven't seen it mentioned but does anyone know if they are a couple - as in a romantic relationship?
Why do you ask? Would it affect their possibility for a Darwin award if they were already out of the gene pool?
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Old 29th October 2017, 02:20 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The worst thing about containers is that they actually float just under the surface of the water, so are virtually invisible until you happen to hit it. Eventually they do sink, but they are a major hazard to shipping and boats until they do.
Just curious: Is there a commercially available sonar system or something comparable that would alert against underwater surprises? I would imagine it would also be useful around reefs, in shallow water, etc.

ETA: There apparently are, but it looks like they're intended to find fish around the boat and monitor underwater topography. I'm talking about something that would look far enough ahead to avoid a floating obstacle.
http://www.cabelas.com/category/1045...CQ_pagesize=40

Last edited by Bob001; 29th October 2017 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 29th October 2017, 02:36 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Why do you ask? Would it affect their possibility for a Darwin award if they were already out of the gene pool?
I hadn't thought about it, but I wonder if two people in a romantic relationship are more likely to defer to each other -- or one to the other -- than two friends who are doing something together? Two buddies might tell each other "This is what we have to have," where in a couple one might say to the other "I trust you to take care of the details."
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Old 29th October 2017, 02:43 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I hadn't thought about it, but I wonder if two people in a romantic relationship are more likely to defer to each other -- or one to the other -- than two friends who are doing something together? Two buddies might tell each other "This is what we have to have," where in a couple one might say to the other "I trust you to take care of the details."
As in "I trust you to know that you can sail a boat with jib only?" Or "I trust you to know how to short sheet the main sail"? Or "I trust you to rig anydamnsail just so other boats have a better chance of seeing us"? Or to rig a sea anchor to halt the drifting off the usual path? hand crank the motor? Or, Or, or....
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Old 29th October 2017, 02:59 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
As in "I trust you to know that you can sail a boat with jib only?" Or "I trust you to know how to short sheet the main sail"? Or "I trust you to rig anydamnsail just so other boats have a better chance of seeing us"? Or to rig a sea anchor to halt the drifting off the usual path? hand crank the motor? Or, Or, or....
You could only ask those questions if you have the knowledge behind them. If one person is a more experienced sailor than the other, even slightly, then the inexperienced person is likely to defer: "Do you know what you're doing?" "Yep, I've done this before." "Well, okay."
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Old 30th October 2017, 06:31 AM   #128
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Huge Shark Repeatedly Attacks Fishermen In Canoe
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Old 30th October 2017, 06:35 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post

Clear case of self defense. Who could blame the shark for that?

When it got off the hook it left.
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Old 30th October 2017, 06:38 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Clear case of self defense. Who could blame the shark for that?

When it got off the hook it left.
I'm with the shark but it illustrates that sharks will attack boats if they feel like it.
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Old 30th October 2017, 06:57 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
I'm with the shark but it illustrates that sharks will attack boats if they feel like it.
I watched a documentary recently where a 30ft great white attacked this boat with three men aboard. One died but another killed a shark in a very ingenious way.
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Old 30th October 2017, 07:22 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You could only ask those questions if you have the knowledge behind them. If one person is a more experienced sailor than the other, even slightly, then the inexperienced person is likely to defer: "Do you know what you're doing?" "Yep, I've done this before." "Well, okay."
I realize this exchange relates to the impact of personal relationships on trust and on the willingness to ask hard questions, but I wanted to focus on the difference between "Do you know how?" and "Have you done it before?"

When I was an active sailor I "knew" about how to do a lot of things that I had never actually done- from reading about it, from talking to other sailors in bars and on docks, etc. But I learned that "knowing" how to do something is very different from actually doing it. I crewed in bay races and I initially learned in principle how to do stuff like how to fly a spinnaker, how to raise one jib before lowering the other, etc., but I had to actually do it, typically first under the supervision of someone with real experience, then multiple times myself, before I was able to do so without error under time pressure on a rocking boat with waves splashing over me. My knowledge of cruising skills is entirely theoretical and I would be a danger to myself and others if I assumed that I could sail to Hawaii using that theoretical knowledge. I learned celestial navigation and I practiced it from the shoreline, but that is very different from taking a site from a rocking boat. In fact just accurately plotting a position on a chart when you are cold and seasick is very difficult compared to doing so after a nice dinner on your kitchen table.

[added in edit] The skipper in the OP may have "known" how to do a lot of things without ever having done them.

Last edited by Giordano; 30th October 2017 at 08:53 AM. Reason: To make my intent more clear
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Old 30th October 2017, 07:36 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
30ft
25...and 3 tons of him.
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Old 30th October 2017, 07:45 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
I'm with the shark but it illustrates that sharks will attack boats if they feel like it.

Not really.

It illustrates that a shark will defend itself against a tiny boat that isn't much bigger than it is which is attacking it, until it can get away.

Most fish fight back when they are hooked and being reeled in. The main difference being that they aren't quite as big as a large shark. The idiots in the canoe should have cut the line the instant they had a clue what they were hauling in.

It doesn't provide any evidence that a shark will attack a large boat on its own initiative to get to what's inside it. Much less that multiple sharks will do so in concert. Which is what these women are claiming.


It might help to remember that in general most shark species don't even view humans as food most of the time, and that most sharks attacks consist of a bite and then, "Nope. That's not on my dinner menu." and a departure.

Sadly for the victim, sharks don't have a good way to take just a tiny nibble.
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Last edited by quadraginta; 30th October 2017 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 30th October 2017, 08:33 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Not really.

It illustrates that a shark will defend itself against a tiny boat that isn't much bigger than it is which is attacking it, until it can get away.

Most fish fight back when they are hooked and being reeled in. The main difference being that they aren't quite as big as a large shark. The idiots in the canoe should have cut the line the instant they had a clue what they were hauling in.

It doesn't provide any evidence that a shark will attack a large boat on its own initiative to get to what's inside it. Much less that multiple sharks will do so in concert. Which is what these women are claiming.


It might help to remember that in general most shark species don't even view humans as food most of the time, and that most sharks attacks consist of a bite and then, "Nope. That's not on my dinner menu." and a departure.

Sadly for the victim, sharks don't have a good way to take just a tiny nibble.
Hmm, I wonder of the women were "attacked" by dolphins? They seem ignorant enough to not know the difference.
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Old 30th October 2017, 09:02 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The trip sounds like a really bad idea for a lot of reasons, but if he was always within sight of land he wouldn't need much in the way of navigation skills.
At least not as long as the weather is good. Fog or a storm that blows you out of sight of land could be a real problem.
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Old 30th October 2017, 09:15 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Why do you ask? Would it affect their possibility for a Darwin award if they were already out of the gene pool?
Lesbian doesn't necessarily mean out of the gene pool. There's still artificial insemination, or a little "help" from a male friend.
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Old 30th October 2017, 09:20 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Not really.

...

It might help to remember that in general most shark species don't even view humans as food most of the time, and that most sharks attacks consist of a bite and then, "Nope. That's not on my dinner menu." and a departure.

Sadly for the victim, sharks don't have a good way to take just a tiny nibble.
Well, that's the ones we hear about. If the shark takes a bite and thinks, "Yum! That's tasty.", there's a good chance we never know what happened to that person.
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Old 30th October 2017, 09:53 AM   #139
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Shark stalking a kayaker -- one of my all time fave pics, which IIRC was deemed legit by Snopes(?).

This was my nightmare scenario as a sea kayaker, albeit statistically unfounded.
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Old 30th October 2017, 10:14 AM   #140
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I am skeptical of the shark attack story as well.
Both women are described as being "from Honolulu" in the second article posted in the OP.
In my experience living in Hawaii for a few years, I noted that those local to area often told stories that I would consider incredible or fanciful, about sharks and sea life in general, going to great lengths to anthropomorphize their actions. I always took this as a quaint local trait, but it looks a little different in print.
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Old 30th October 2017, 01:52 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Shark stalking checking out a kayaker -- one of my all time fave pics, which IIRC was deemed legit by Snopes(?).

This was my nightmare scenario as a sea kayaker, albeit statistically unfounded.

FTFY.

The article accompanying the photo is interesting. The guy who took the photo was intentionally trying to interact with the shark.
Quote:
As I sat in the “yum-yum” yellow sea kayak, a 15-foot (4.5m) great white shark ambled towards me. However, white sharks are much more cautious and inquisitive than aggressive and unpredictable. And this proved true with our experiment; at no time did the sharks show any aggression toward us or our little yellow craft.
The rest of the article recounts some of the times his photo was used (unauthorized) in Photoshop attempts to gin up some shark scare or another.

Cute stuff.
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Old 30th October 2017, 02:56 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
I am skeptical of the shark attack story as well.
Both women are described as being "from Honolulu" in the second article posted in the OP.
In my experience living in Hawaii for a few years, I noted that those local to area often told stories that I would consider incredible or fanciful, about sharks and sea life in general, going to great lengths to anthropomorphize their actions. I always took this as a quaint local trait, but it looks a little different in print.
Do sharks bump up against an unfamiliar object out of curiosity ("What is this thing? Is it good to eat?")? If so, the women might have misinterpreted their actions. And did they call them tiger sharks, instead of a correct breed, because that's what they were most familiar with?

Wikip says tiger sharks can be found in warm water around the world and will eat anything. Maybe their story isn't too wild.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_shark
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Old 30th October 2017, 03:44 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
<respectful snip>
In my experience living in Hawaii for a few years, I noted that those local to area often told stories that I would consider incredible or fanciful, about sharks and sea life in general, going to great lengths to anthropomorphize their actions. I always took this as a quaint local trait, but it looks a little different in print.
That sounds a bit like Canadians playing up how fierce their winters are.
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Old 31st October 2017, 05:35 AM   #144
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Good morning. There seems to be some inconsistencies in this story...
Quote:
Inconsistencies cast doubt on harrowing tale of sea survival
https://www.apnews.com/4460838636004...f-sea-survival
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Old 31st October 2017, 05:40 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by JPK View Post
Good morning. There seems to be some inconsistencies in this story...

https://www.apnews.com/4460838636004...f-sea-survival
There's bound to be inconsistencies, even at the best of times.
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Old 31st October 2017, 05:59 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Yeah a decent comms professional or high end Ham hobbyist can play around and bounce stuff off layers of the atmosphere in very specific conditions at very specific frequencies sometimes
Wow, I did not know that. That's both fascinating and very impressive. The things people can do with tools or training always amazes me.
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Old 31st October 2017, 06:10 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by JPK View Post
Good morning. There seems to be some inconsistencies in this story...

https://www.apnews.com/4460838636004...f-sea-survival
Inconsistencies, like the storm that supposedly crippled them didn't actually happen. Like they had a EPIRB device and didn't bother to use it. Interestinger and interestinger.....
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Old 31st October 2017, 06:47 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's bound to be inconsistencies, even at the best of times.

So which of those possible ports were they sitting in for those five months? Does the hull have five months of growth on it?

Check their banking records for cedit card purchases? Facebook posts too?

Fraud rather than incompetence?
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Old 31st October 2017, 07:02 AM   #149
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The ultimate resolution of these mysteries will be fascinating. I have no idea of what actually occurred but it is far from a straightforward story. If fraud, for what reason? A book deal? I doubt it would pay very much.

Do people here know of the Donald Crowhurst story? He entered the Sunday Times Golden Globe single-handed round-the-world sailing race in 1969. After he left Devon he began to question his ability to complete the race. So instead of heading to the Southern Ocean for the round-the-world trip, he loitered in the South Atlantic for several months falsifying his radio transmissions and navigation logs planning to slip back into England when the other competitors completed their voyage. He hoped not to win but only to look as if he had finished the race. Unfortunately for him the other competitors dropped out. Realizing that if he returned he might be celebrated as "the winner" and all the attention that would entail, his logs (later recovered with his deserted boat) indicated that his behavior became more and more bizarre and he appears to have committed suicide at sea.
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Old 31st October 2017, 08:14 AM   #150
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Balloon Boy, part 2
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Old 31st October 2017, 08:35 AM   #151
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Perhaps they had heard a theory that Obama's birth certificate had been lost at sea and were trying to drift along in the same current as the birth certificate, hoping to find it.
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Old 31st October 2017, 09:10 AM   #152
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My wild ass guess has something to do with Jennifer Appel being in way over her head with the cost of the boat. It's a 50 footer, that's a lot of boat. I don't know how old it was, or even even who made the boat but it would be easy peasy to overextend yourself on a purchase like that.

We'll just have to wait for the truth to come oput on this one but for now, rampant speculation on their motives is about all we got.

Maybe they were trying to get themselves on Survivor.....
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Old 31st October 2017, 10:39 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
My wild ass guess has something to do with Jennifer Appel being in way over her head with the cost of the boat. It's a 50 footer, that's a lot of boat. I don't know how old it was, or even even who made the boat but it would be easy peasy to overextend yourself on a purchase like that.
My first thought, too. Pulling that EPIRB you have to assume that you will be stuck with rescue costs. Likely far more than they could afford. I'm sure whoever sold them the EPIRB let them know as much at the time of purchase. So, as long as they had food and water no reason to add crippling financial debt to their list of problems.

I don't know a lot of sailers, but I've known climbers who were in over their heads but really didn't want to be saved by a helicopter. Yes, they were stuck, but damn that's a year's wages to a rock bum.
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Old 31st October 2017, 11:02 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
My first thought, too. Pulling that EPIRB you have to assume that you will be stuck with rescue costs. Likely far more than they could afford. I'm sure whoever sold them the EPIRB let them know as much at the time of purchase. So, as long as they had food and water no reason to add crippling financial debt to their list of problems.

<snip>

Would this have been significantly different than a result from any of all the radio pleas for help they claim to have made?
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Old 31st October 2017, 11:11 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Wow, I did not know that. That's both fascinating and very impressive. The things people can do with tools or training always amazes me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave
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Old 31st October 2017, 11:20 AM   #156
ddt
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
My first thought, too. Pulling that EPIRB you have to assume that you will be stuck with rescue costs. Likely far more than they could afford. I'm sure whoever sold them the EPIRB let them know as much at the time of purchase. So, as long as they had food and water no reason to add crippling financial debt to their list of problems.
Really? According to HowStuffWorks, the US Coast Guard does not pass the bill for search and rescue to the sailor. And according to this insurer, "many other governments do not charge" either.

ETA: I was frankly surprised at your mention that you might get to foot the bill.
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Old 31st October 2017, 11:31 AM   #157
casebro
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
My first thought, too. Pulling that EPIRB you have to assume that you will be stuck with rescue costs. Likely far more than they could afford. I'm sure whoever sold them the EPIRB let them know as much at the time of purchase. So, as long as they had food and water no reason to add crippling financial debt to their list of problems.

I don't know a lot of sailers, but I've known climbers who were in over their heads but really didn't want to be saved by a helicopter. Yes, they were stuck, but damn that's a year's wages to a rock bum.
But your assumption is that they were "lost at sea". I'm wondering just how lost they were. Maybe throw in an insurance claim on a boat they couldn't afford to come back in? 5 months of back payments?

Lessee, the original two weeks to sail to Tahiti, life on the beach for a few weeks. Sail some more, life on the next islands. repeat. Now sail to "no man's land" and report yourselves lost at sea for five months. But oh yeah, hang on to the epirb and comms stuff, you just might need it if you don't get "rescued" soon enough.

I wonder if there was ever a survival story published about set sail from Hawaii for Tahiti, storm, dismasting, drift to the same point X?

I wonder of their non-functioning GPS would show a course made good?
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Old 31st October 2017, 11:50 AM   #158
Dr. Keith
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Would this have been significantly different than a result from any of all the radio pleas for help they claim to have made?
I don't know and ddt seems to have found information that contradicts my assumptions.

I can see rationalizing that boarding another vessel and then being taken to wherever they are going as a low cost solution.

Really, if they didn't know the cost of pulling the EPIRB then they shouldn't have left port.
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Old 31st October 2017, 11:56 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
ETA: I was frankly surprised at your mention that you might get to foot the bill.
Some states do charge and I have friends who have been charged. I wasn't aware that Coast Guard does not charge, so thank you for correcting my bad assumptions. That is pretty cool.
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Old 31st October 2017, 12:02 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
My first thought, too. Pulling that EPIRB you have to assume that you will be stuck with rescue costs.
.....
Are you sure about that? I can't find a link either way, but that would seem like a strong disincentive for people to hesitate to deploy them when needed, endangering not only themselves but everybody else aboard. Is the Coast Guard going to send a five- or six-figure bill to somebody whose fishing boat capsizes in a storm?

There are some links about PLBs being activated accidentally or through ignorance -- one guy was found to be using it like an avalanche beacon when skiiing -- but nothing says they're getting billed.
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