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Old 2nd November 2017, 08:53 AM   #241
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
No sense at all. Maybe mom is a liar and is trying to somehow cover for her daughter's lies. It must be terrible for all of them because the press and experts are now tearing them apart. None of them would have wanted this public character assassination - but the fact is that Appel is telling lies and it looks like others around her are too.

The Coast Guard says the mom never called. She doesn't have a travel itinerary either even though her daughter said she did. The CG takes real calls about missing-at-sea very seriously.

I don't know if we will see a fraud investigation but I think there might be justification for it.

Wait a minute! How do we know that "Momma Appel" wasn't operating an illegal Evil Mind-Control Death Ray back at Appel HQ aka "the basement Lair"?
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Old 2nd November 2017, 08:56 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
There's an amusing thread over at Sailing Anarchy. This blogpost by someone claiming to have sailed the oceans is also interesting in listing all the problems with their story.

One thing not mentioned in that blogpost: how much sun lotion did they have on board? Not only do they look healthy when rescued, they also don't look weathered for one bit. What they did do all those five months is still a mystery. And contrary to their claims, there was also a call from a ship named Sea Nymph near Tahiti, saying they'd check into port the next day, and that everything was fine, around the time of their schedule.

This wasn't Appel's first misadventure at sea: two years ago, she wrecked another boat. She seems to be a jack of all trades, master at none: she studied landscape architecture, then moved into "landscape vitamins", something like organic farming but then different, and registered with the Hawaii Film Actors (check out the pics at your own peril).

TBF, Appel does look a bit weathered.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 09:07 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
There's an amusing thread over at Sailing Anarchy. This blogpost by someone claiming to have sailed the oceans is also interesting in listing all the problems with their story.

One thing not mentioned in that blogpost: how much sun lotion did they have on board? Not only do they look healthy when rescued, they also don't look weathered for one bit. What they did do all those five months is still a mystery. And contrary to their claims, there was also a call from a ship named Sea Nymph near Tahiti, saying they'd check into port the next day, and that everything was fine, around the time of their schedule.

This wasn't Appel's first misadventure at sea: two years ago, she wrecked another boat. She seems to be a jack of all trades, master at none: she studied landscape architecture, then moved into "landscape vitamins", something like organic farming but then different, and registered with the Hawaii Film Actors (check out the pics at your own peril).
Not the worst...

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I think we're allowed to say there are so big holes in the story that you can drive the Seventh Fleet through it.
With or without crashing into another ship?

Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
So, just to make sure I understand (because of the lack of clarity there), are you saying it's poorly designed?
Understatement of the year.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 09:40 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It is stupidity not to seek help if you are 24 hours from death, as they claimed.
I think that there has been some reporting of their claims taken out of context. They did say that they were rescued about 24 hours before death. But they were talking about the USS Ashland "rescuing" them from the Taiwanese fishing boat. They said that they felt they would be killed or die at the hands of those fishermen and it was the most scary time of all of their perils going all the way back to the immense storm at the beginning in Hawaii.

Quote:
It is also stupidity to seek rescue by sending out mayday messages daily by radio, but not activate the EPIRB unit.
Fuiaba says that people heard them when they were stranded but turned away. She says it happened so many times. That part comes at 1:20 in this YouTube.

It's worth watching this video for all of the crazy. They are being interviewed on the USS Ashland after the Ashland picked them up from the Taiwanese boat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZaa5hJSJIo
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Old 2nd November 2017, 09:52 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I think that there has been some reporting of their claims taken out of context. They did say that they were rescued about 24 hours before death. But they were talking about the USS Ashland "rescuing" them from the Taiwanese fishing boat. They said that they felt they would be killed or die at the hands of those fishermen and it was the most scary time of all of their perils going all the way back to the immense storm at the beginning in Hawaii.
But, as has been confirmed, this was an imaginary storm......
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Old 2nd November 2017, 09:54 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It seems pretty clear to me. I don't mind if you disagree or whatever.

I'm about 98% sure that they are lovers and there is major lying going on and lots of it. So it's a relationship and compulsive lying. Lovers with messed up minds.

Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Perhaps, but the fact that something is unknowable but trivial (from our perspectives) doesn't warrant wild ass guesses.

You don't know these two. You don't know whay Pacific cruising is like. You don't need an opinion.

In such situations, skepticism suggests caution in drawing conclusions. We can rely on expert testimony that something is fishy, but to declare they are lovers really goes beyond the evidence and the need for an opinion.
Indeed

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Appel needed to avoid all the ports even though she was near them and could go in or radio to have rescuers come to them. She did that because Fuiaba would not understand why they would land and not get help with the broken boat or not communicate with folks back home saying they broke down but are okay. Appel wouldn't be able to explain that to her. So instead she just told lies to her all along the way and stayed away from ports and help.
As far as I see there is a chain of reasoning here
  1. Appel needed to avoid all the ports even though she was near them and could go in or radio to have rescuers come to them.
  2. She did that because Fuiaba would not understand why they would land and not get help with the broken boat or not communicate with folks back home saying they broke down but are okay.
  3. Appel wouldn't be able to explain that to her. So instead she just told lies to her all along the way and stayed away from ports and help.


The trouble with this is that there are plenty of other options at each stage.

Even if you have chosen the most likely option at each stage, say the one with 80% probability, by the time you get to the third one you are still only about 51% probability of this being the right answer.

For example, MikeG has pointed out stupidity or conspiracy as other options.

Maybe they set off with the intent to sail the distance, something went a little wrong, and that gave them an idea? Maybe they were staying somewhere for a while and were hoping for a moderate amount of interest, but not enough to highlight the problems with their story? Maybe they thought the story of how they faked their trip would make a better book deal?

Lots of options.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 09:55 AM   #247
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Next time they get lost at sea we'll send Balloon Boy to rescue them.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 10:10 AM   #248
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Too bad the Navy left the boat adrift, we'll never know the actual state of it.

But the claim that all of their various comms went bad because the antenna broke is BS- each comm uses a totally different antenna. Most are integral these days.

And I didn't see a radar reflector on the mast either. Like they didn't want to be seen. Until it was their chosen time.

And did anybody notice the interesting algae line on the side? It looks like it's at about the waterline of a boat that has been heeled over while sailing on the same line for days. Which would go along with my theory that they lied an the beach for months, then set sail on one compass point to get "lost" 900 miles south east of Japan.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 10:13 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
But, as has been confirmed, this was an imaginary storm......
Yeah, she said it lasted for 3 days. But no such storm existed.

They appear to show no embarrassment or shame with their lies. They just move from one lie to the next one. They don't care.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 10:19 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
They appear to show no embarrassment or shame with their lies. They just move from one lie to the next one. They don't care.
Making a run at the presidency?
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Old 2nd November 2017, 10:35 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Too bad the Navy left the boat adrift, we'll never know the actual state of it.

But the claim that all of their various comms went bad because the antenna broke is BS- each comm uses a totally different antenna. Most are integral these days.

And I didn't see a radar reflector on the mast either. Like they didn't want to be seen. Until it was their chosen time.

And did anybody notice the interesting algae line on the side? It looks like it's at about the waterline of a boat that has been heeled over while sailing on the same line for days. Which would go along with my theory that they lied an the beach for months, then set sail on one compass point to get "lost" 900 miles south east of Japan.
Did you read the links from yesterday? Appel almost made it to Tahiti. They also said that they wanted to sail to Tahiti first and then sail around the Pacific Islands for up to six months. Maybe they just didn't feel like going to Tahiti but carried on with the rest of their trip?

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...-gets-stranger

http://www.staradvertiser.com/2017/1...nging-stories/
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Old 2nd November 2017, 10:39 AM   #252
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In answer to JoeB...

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
People set out poorly prepared. It happens all the time. Of course we can't rule out that the events were staged, but to propose that concept at this point is rather absurd.
That was then, this is now.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 11:04 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
.........This blogpost by someone claiming to have sailed the oceans is also interesting in listing all the problems with their story........
Everyone interested in this story should read this. It is full of expletives, so NSFW in some cases, and careful with the MA here if quoting. It doesn't leave much of their story intact.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 11:55 AM   #254
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There's also a rational reason for them not to go into port and onto land: their dogs. Any half-decent country would require for them to be quarantined.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 11:56 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Jesus feathered haired Christ that website looks like an emo 12 year old girl's MySpace page from 1999 made a baby with the Timecube website and that baby threw up on a Geocities page.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 11:58 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
TBF, Appel does look a bit weathered.
But only a bit.

Another puzzling thing: in the photo the USS Ashland made, you see her climbing the mast in a wetsuit, to near the spreader. Why in the FSM's name would she do such a thing? Oh, and one of the various stories about why they couldn't sail was that the spreader was defective.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 12:00 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Everyone interested in this story should read this. It is full of expletives, so NSFW in some cases, and careful with the MA here if quoting. It doesn't leave much of their story intact.
Indeed. It's clear that their whole story is nonsense. The added touch about the fishermen wanting to use them as sex slaves is particularily telling of their need to construct a narrative for their book/movie.

It's unfortunate that the Navy didn't tow the ship so someone could determine how broken it really is.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 12:01 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Fuiaba says that people heard them when they were stranded but turned away. She says it happened so many times. That part comes at 1:20 in this YouTube.
That part is, frankly, unbelievable. There's a long standing notion among sailors that you should help fellow sailors in need. No-one at sea ignores a distress signal from another boat.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 12:03 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That part is, frankly, unbelievable. There's a long standing notion among sailors that you should help fellow sailors in need. No-one at sea ignores a distress signal from another boat.
Unless your name is Stanley Lord.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 12:08 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Too bad the Navy left the boat adrift, we'll never know the actual state of it.

But the claim that all of their various comms went bad because the antenna broke is BS- each comm uses a totally different antenna. Most are integral these days.

And I didn't see a radar reflector on the mast either. Like they didn't want to be seen. Until it was their chosen time.

And did anybody notice the interesting algae line on the side? It looks like it's at about the waterline of a boat that has been heeled over while sailing on the same line for days. Which would go along with my theory that they lied an the beach for months, then set sail on one compass point to get "lost" 900 miles south east of Japan.
I've been wondering about this. If the other side of the boat looks the same, this would correspond to the growth on a boat which had flooded and had been drifting a foot deeper in the water than normal. The motor and batteries would be flooded. This means that all communications and navigation gear would stop working about the same time, as would the bilge-pump. It would take days of pumping with a manual bilge-pump to get the water out and by that time permanent damage would have been done.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 12:43 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
There's an amusing thread over at Sailing Anarchy. This blogpost by someone claiming to have sailed the oceans is also interesting in listing all the problems with their story.

One thing not mentioned in that blogpost: how much sun lotion did they have on board? Not only do they look healthy when rescued, they also don't look weathered for one bit. What they did do all those five months is still a mystery. And contrary to their claims, there was also a call from a ship named Sea Nymph near Tahiti, saying they'd check into port the next day, and that everything was fine, around the time of their schedule.

This wasn't Appel's first misadventure at sea: two years ago, she wrecked another boat. She seems to be a jack of all trades, master at none: she studied landscape architecture, then moved into "landscape vitamins", something like organic farming but then different, and registered with the Hawaii Film Actors (check out the pics at your own peril).
What with the swarm of 30ft sharks, I particularly liked this feature:


Quote:
In one account, they said that Fuiava had to swim to the fishing boat to tell them to stop damaging the boat while towing it. Not only is it ludicrously impossible that a swimming person could catch a boat in motion, but it’s also not plausible that towing a boat would cause it damage. And if it were, they could have just cut the rope and TURNED ON THEIR *********** BEACON.
I'm trying to find the least plausible aspect of their story, and I think that has to be it so far.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 12:48 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Yeah, she said it lasted for 3 days. But no such storm existed.

They appear to show no embarrassment or shame with their lies. They just move from one lie to the next one. They don't care.
The lack of evidence for a storm is pretty hard to overcome. Honestly, much more worrying than the talk about tiger sharks (which could easily have been misidentified, size exaggerated unintentionally or otherwise, etc.).

I'm very interested in seeing how this story plays out. I don't think that there's anything wrong with suggesting that there's something fishy here. I'm just not sure what it indicates. I'm not a cruiser, but a pissant fair-weather day sailor, so I'm not an expert on what likely happened.

But if NOAA says there was no three-day storm there, I'm pretty damned confident there was no three-day storm there.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 12:49 PM   #263
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And also it's not an either or thing.

It's possible (hell at this point I'd still call this the most likely scenario) that they did have some kind of legit lost at sea scenario, but for whatever reason needed to exaggerate/embellish it.

That's how the whole "Every time they tell the story there's a new detail added" thing makes the most sense to me.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 12:56 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Everyone interested in this story should read this. It is full of expletives, so NSFW in some cases, and careful with the MA here if quoting. It doesn't leave much of their story intact.
I'm reading the first bit, and he suggests that 120 nm in a 24 hour period is very reasonable to expect, then divides the distance by that rate to determine time to destination.

Now, I'm not a blue-water sailor. I don't go on long voyages. But 5 knots directly to your destination makes sense only if the wind is quite steady and coming from the roughly right direction (not head on). Again, not my expertise and maybe on the ocean, such regularity can be more or less assured, but this surprises me.

Anyone familiar with real blue water cruising can tell me whether this is reasonable or not.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 01:02 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
There's also a rational reason for them not to go into port and onto land: their dogs. Any half-decent country would require for them to be quarantined.
Er, you do realize that your country isn't half-decent? Maybe things are changed, but I flew into Belgium and drove into the Netherlands with my dog back in 2001. It's possible I unwittingly smuggled him into the Netherlands, but at least I didn't smuggle him into Belgium.

He lived in the Netherlands until 2005 or so, when he stopped living entirely.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 01:04 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
And also it's not an either or thing.

It's possible (hell at this point I'd still call this the most likely scenario) that they did have some kind of legit lost at sea scenario, but for whatever reason needed to exaggerate/embellish it.

That's how the whole "Every time they tell the story there's a new detail added" thing makes the most sense to me.
Seems plausible to me too, but I won't make any wagers one way or the other.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 02:18 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
......5 knots directly to your destination makes sense only if the wind is quite steady and coming from the roughly right direction (not head on). Again, not my expertise and maybe on the ocean, such regularity can be more or less assured, but this surprises me.

Anyone familiar with real blue water cruising can tell me whether this is reasonable or not.
Read on. He covers this.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 02:23 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'm not a cruiser
Yeah, I always figured you as a carrack, myself.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 02:35 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Er, you do realize that your country isn't half-decent? Maybe things are changed, but I flew into Belgium and drove into the Netherlands with my dog back in 2001. It's possible I unwittingly smuggled him into the Netherlands, but at least I didn't smuggle him into Belgium.

He lived in the Netherlands until 2005 or so, when he stopped living entirely.
We had a dog on our cruising boat for a period of time, and we never encountered a problem entering a country. That was late 70's, maybe things have changed. (Mind you, the dog wasn't my bad idea.)
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Old 2nd November 2017, 02:41 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah, I always figured you as a carrack, myself.
I had to look that up. It wasn't worth the effort, dear sir.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 02:45 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Didymus View Post
I've been wondering about this. If the other side of the boat looks the same, this would correspond to the growth on a boat which had flooded and had been drifting a foot deeper in the water than normal. The motor and batteries would be flooded. This means that all communications and navigation gear would stop working about the same time, as would the bilge-pump. It would take days of pumping with a manual bilge-pump to get the water out and by that time permanent damage would have been done.
Try the last pages of Sailing Anarchy (hat tip ddt).

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...months/&page=9

This is on page 5. Some one wrote in about "Crazy-Jen" on Honolulu Star Advertiser


Quote:
Roman Kalinowski I had a cougar thing with Jen for awhile when in college at UHawaii. There are lots of great female mariners on this planet; she is not one of them.

AFAIK, Jen had no autopilot and only a poor handheld GPS. Because she was pretty much broke, her boat was not in condition for blue sea sailing. Thus, her spreader/shroud on the mast got messed up after rough seas, so likely she couldn’t sail w/o risking the mast being torn out.

However she should have been able to progress downwind to land with jib sail only, despite rig damage.

For those wondering about the engine, there are bands of latitude called the doldrums, where there is little to no wind and you do need an engine.

She wrecked her first boat on the reef right outside Ala Wai harbor/magic island (2012).

Jen would sail on my boat and a few others and think she was great because she could steer it and tack just off Oahu. The open ocean is much harsher. I would never take my boat out of the Hawaiian islands until I get more experience in the Med/Carib. One trip from Kauai did not prepare her for a trip to Tahiti.

Crossing the Pacific Ocean is the sailing equivalent of climbing Mount Everest. Not to be taken lightly.

The most messed up thing is that Jen only knew her companion for 3 days before they left, the other woman had no idea how crazy/dumb Jen is and got stuck on that boat.
http://www.kitv.com/story/30425516/s...f-magic-island

You should really see her photos. She likes to wear bikinis:

http://hawaiifilmindustry.com/photo/...=0t4bwknjr36la

Boat registration:

http://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/pls/webp...l_id_in=608498


And apparently she is/was an avid motorcyclist and racer.

Quote:
Jennifer Appel earned 6 victories in 9 WERA regional races that same yr.
(1991?)

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...months/&page=6


One poster over at SA has been in contact with people in Honolulu who all describe her as crazy but some also say she is a competent sailor.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 03:11 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Er, you do realize that your country isn't half-decent? Maybe things are changed, but I flew into Belgium and drove into the Netherlands with my dog back in 2001. It's possible I unwittingly smuggled him into the Netherlands, but at least I didn't smuggle him into Belgium.

He lived in the Netherlands until 2005 or so, when he stopped living entirely.
My belated condolences. I phrased that poorly. According to PetTravel.com, "There will be no quarantine imposed on your pet when entering the Netherlands as long as the following requirements are met." and if I read that correctly, it boils down to quarantine if you're from a high-rabies country (which neither the USA nor Belgium is).

A friend of mine donated his cat to me when he moved to the USA because he couldn't stand the idea having to quarantine him.

But for kicks, let's look at the requirements for Tahiti; after all, that's where Appel and Fuiaba said they were heading. There's a lot of requirements on that page, but I think it simply boils down to this at step 9:
Quote:
Any dogs or cats entering Tahiti by pleasure boat must commit to confine their pet to the boat.
Through the awful grammar (the dog must commit to confine its pet? What pet? Its human pet? ) I think it simply means they could have moored at Tahiti as long as they kept the dogs on board.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 03:23 PM   #273
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Not to derail, but if you’re keeping dogs on a boat for a prolonged period... where do they poop? Train them to go over the edge?
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Old 2nd November 2017, 03:25 PM   #274
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I'm a fairly uncomplicated dude

"Utter load of Pants" category for me
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Old 2nd November 2017, 03:45 PM   #275
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Craigslist posting.

it's satiire
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Old 2nd November 2017, 03:55 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Try the last pages of Sailing Anarchy (hat tip ddt).
You're welcome! I had quite some fun reading that thread.

Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
You should really see her photos. She likes to wear bikinis:

http://hawaiifilmindustry.com/photo/...=0t4bwknjr36la
Even on horseback or while fixing her bike.

Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
One poster over at SA has been in contact with people in Honolulu who all describe her as crazy but some also say she is a competent sailor.
I don't remember someone calling her a competent sailor there. There is one who called her a scam artist, though.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 04:25 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Not to derail, but if you’re keeping dogs on a boat for a prolonged period... where do they poop?
The poop deck?
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Old 2nd November 2017, 05:47 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Not to derail, but if you’re keeping dogs on a boat for a prolonged period... where do they poop? Train them to go over the edge?
On normal cruising you have a couple of options.

Oversimplified to some degree if you're close to land you can't discharge human or animal waste. Once you get a certain distance from land you can discharge treated waste, and once you get a certain distance beyond that you can discharge untreated waste.

Very small boats often use simple camping style porta-potties or waste buckets. But commonly a boat of their size is going to have one or two marine heads with a holding tank of some size (a 1984 Baltric 55 footer on Ebay right now has a 15 gallon holding tank for example) and discharge to connect it to the sewer in port. Composting toilets are also becoming common.

In their scenario they could probably dump it or discharge it over the side.

It's really not that big of an issue when compared to dumping things like, say, plastics or oils which don't have a natural way to break down or be processed. The main concern is keeping bacteria away from human water sources. I mean given that oceans are huge ecosystems with billions of animals of every possible size pooping in them all the time some human and dog waste isn't that problematic. It's really not much different from squatting in the woods and burying it while hiking.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 07:00 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Craigslist posting.

it's satiire
Lol
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Old 2nd November 2017, 07:01 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You're welcome! I had quite some fun reading that thread.


Even on horseback or while fixing her bike.


I don't remember someone calling her a competent sailor there. There is one who called her a scam artist, though.
The one called Whisper:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...omment-5973372


He's also the guy who knows other people who know Appel.
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