ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 7th November 2017, 02:23 PM   #1
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 9,729
Why the USA will never sort gun control, love for the gun...

This is why the USA will never sort gun control and has to learn to just live with regular massacres and a rate of gun deaths way higher than any equivalent country;

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/w...T.nav=top-news

"The United States is one of only three countries, along with Mexico and Guatemala, that begin with the opposite assumption: that people have an inherent right to own guns.
The main reason American regulation of gun ownership is so weak may be the fact that the trade-offs are simply given a different weight in the United States than they are anywhere else.
After Britain had a mass shooting in 1987, the country instituted strict gun control laws. So did Australia after a 1996 incident. But the United States has repeatedly faced the same calculus and determined that relatively unregulated gun ownership is worth the cost to society.
That choice, more than any statistic or regulation, is what most sets the United States apart.
“In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate,” Dan Hodges, a British journalist, wrote in a post on Twitter two years ago, referring to the 2012 attack that killed 20 young students at an elementary school in Connecticut. “Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”

I would go further back and Columbine. Once the USA decided children massacring other children was bearable it was over. Sandy Hook just confirmed that. There is never going to be a tipping point where enough people decide there has to be a change and guns have to be properly regulated.

The love felt for the gun exceeds the love felt for children.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 03:26 PM   #2
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,457
Pretty much this

Quote:
“In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate,” Dan Hodges, a British journalist, wrote in a post on Twitter two years ago, referring to the 2012 attack that killed 20 young students at an elementary school in Connecticut. “Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 03:46 PM   #3
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,714
As opposed to the UK's response to mass murder:

"London mayor says being prepared for terror attacks 'part and parcel' of living in a major city"

Or, to paraphrase your quote:

“In retrospect Manchester marked the end of the UK terrorism debate,”
“Once Britain decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”


Keep calm and carry on.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 03:54 PM   #4
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,457
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
As opposed to the UK's response to mass murder:

"London mayor says being prepared for terror attacks 'part and parcel' of living in a major city"

Or, to paraphrase your quote:

“In retrospect Manchester marked the end of the UK terrorism debate,”
“Once Britain decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”


Keep calm and carry on.
Except that would be a bit of a silly comparison, as the UK doesn't have a constitutional right to bear terrorist weapons like bombs

Or a constitutional right to accumulate weapons built to do as much damage as technologically possible with little to no controls

Actually

Take away the "bit"
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 04:30 PM   #5
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,426
Maybe someone should go on a shooting rampage where the only victims are other guns...
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 04:41 PM   #6
Mark F
Graduate Poster
 
Mark F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,174
The other side of the coin is there is always something else to blame.

If a white person goes on a shooting rampage its a mental health problem.

If an immigrant goes on a shooting rampage its a terrorism and/or immigration problem.

If a black person goes on a shooting rampage it must have been drugs or gangs.
__________________
So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts.
Mark F is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 05:36 PM   #7
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,832
Different thread, same old tired *****.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 05:49 PM   #8
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,794
Quote:
This is why the USA will never sort gun control....
I'm trying to understand what this means...
__________________
" What if the Hokey Pokey is what it's all about? "

Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join Team 13232 !
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 05:59 PM   #9
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 10,498
FWIW, here's a post of mine from 2012 outlining what I believe would be a workable universal approach to gun control

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9&postcount=25

From my pov based on my training and experience, if I were put in charge of revamping firearms laws across the board this is what I'd do - warning - there will something guaranteed to piss off everyone.

Federal control over the states - no no-control states, no over controlled states.

Draconian penalities for criminal or negligent misuse or storage of a firearm, including mandatory minimum sentence enhancments for use of a firearm in crime that would be completely seperate from the sentence in the underlying indictment, with no concurrent sentence and no probation/parole option for the court - Example - possession of a firearm during the course of a robbery that doesn't imvolve injury to the victim, lets say 10 years on the firearm charge, to be served in full before 1 day credit on the robbery charge. You get the idea.

Safe storage accross the board - you can purchase a basic steel key entry storage cabinent that will keep kids or honest people out for under $200.00, Undividual pistol safes can be purchased for $100.00 or less.

Safe storage laws not to be intended to require firearms under lock and key when the owner is in residence - the law would be intended to provide security against theft primarily, not as a restriction prohibiting defensive use.

All firearms sales of title 1 firearms subject to NICS instant background check.

All sales must be conducted through an FFL dealer (allowed to charge a modest fee) and subject to the NICS check as above.

Any theft of a firearm must be reported asap - if the owner is in Italy for a month and comes back to find he/she has been robbed, the first call better be to the local agency.

Shall issue carry permits available in every state, subject to training and live fire range qualification every six months - I'd suggest a minimum classroom component of 32 hrs. (an abbreviated version of Police Officer Standardized Training) and the live fire test should be comprehensive. If you want to carry, you have to measure up.

No magazine capacity restrictions - it's a complete waste of effort.

Any semi-auto version of a design originally manufactured as a selective fire or full auto weapon would be subject to NFA registration in a seperate category, not subject to the $200.00 transfer tax or CLEO sign-off. The purchaser would be subject to the NICS instant check only, but would be required to provide a Certificate of Eligibility with photo and prints - this would be transmitted electroniclly to ATF for inclusion in the NFTR (National Firearms Transfer Record) No additional restrictions in any state on this class of firearm beyond the above stated. As part othe above, ATF would have to get their **** fully together wrt the NFTR - it's a shambles now and has been so for the last 30 or so years, don't get me started.

All of the above must be stored in actual safes or vaults. The buyer can bring in a pic of his setup, and sign a statement under threat of prosecution for perjury and a loss of firearms rights for a minimum of let's say, 5 years if his/her semi-auto military type firearms are stolen from home, and there is evidence that the firearms were not securly stored - if a bad actor can remove the whole safe, and the evidence supports that, no charges against the firearm owner

NFA weapons and devices -

Rescind the section of the Firearms Owners Protection Act prohibiting the manufacture of new machine guns - since 1934, there has been ONE crime known to have been commited with prosecution resulting in conviction from possession of a registered MG, and I'm ashamed to admit that it was a LEO who commited the crime. Registered weapons and devices have not been and are not a problem. With the buy in point where it is, even assuming a drop in price for the lower end of the price scale, anybody willing to go through the whole process and a 5 figure investment isn't likely to act out in any criminal fashion.

Oh yeah, carry permit fees, CoE licenses etc, have to be reasonably related to the costs to administer, no $10,000.00 permit fees...

Fire away, I know I'm going to get it from both sides.
__________________
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper, U.S.M.C.

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 06:24 PM   #10
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,894
It seems to me the essential problem is not devising workable legislation that might improve the situation. The problem is the gun culture and the love of guns, and the absolute determination of the gun-lovers not to allow any such legislation to pass.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 07:02 PM   #11
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,457
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
FWIW, here's a post of mine from 2012 outlining what I believe would be a workable universal approach to gun control

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9&postcount=25

From my pov based on my training and experience, if I were put in charge of revamping firearms laws across the board this is what I'd do - warning - there will something guaranteed to piss off everyone.

Federal control over the states - no no-control states, no over controlled states.

Draconian penalities for criminal or negligent misuse or storage of a firearm, including mandatory minimum sentence enhancments for use of a firearm in crime that would be completely seperate from the sentence in the underlying indictment, with no concurrent sentence and no probation/parole option for the court - Example - possession of a firearm during the course of a robbery that doesn't imvolve injury to the victim, lets say 10 years on the firearm charge, to be served in full before 1 day credit on the robbery charge. You get the idea.

Safe storage accross the board - you can purchase a basic steel key entry storage cabinent that will keep kids or honest people out for under $200.00, Undividual pistol safes can be purchased for $100.00 or less.

Safe storage laws not to be intended to require firearms under lock and key when the owner is in residence - the law would be intended to provide security against theft primarily, not as a restriction prohibiting defensive use.

All firearms sales of title 1 firearms subject to NICS instant background check.

All sales must be conducted through an FFL dealer (allowed to charge a modest fee) and subject to the NICS check as above.

Any theft of a firearm must be reported asap - if the owner is in Italy for a month and comes back to find he/she has been robbed, the first call better be to the local agency.

Shall issue carry permits available in every state, subject to training and live fire range qualification every six months - I'd suggest a minimum classroom component of 32 hrs. (an abbreviated version of Police Officer Standardized Training) and the live fire test should be comprehensive. If you want to carry, you have to measure up.

No magazine capacity restrictions - it's a complete waste of effort.

Any semi-auto version of a design originally manufactured as a selective fire or full auto weapon would be subject to NFA registration in a seperate category, not subject to the $200.00 transfer tax or CLEO sign-off. The purchaser would be subject to the NICS instant check only, but would be required to provide a Certificate of Eligibility with photo and prints - this would be transmitted electroniclly to ATF for inclusion in the NFTR (National Firearms Transfer Record) No additional restrictions in any state on this class of firearm beyond the above stated. As part othe above, ATF would have to get their **** fully together wrt the NFTR - it's a shambles now and has been so for the last 30 or so years, don't get me started.

All of the above must be stored in actual safes or vaults. The buyer can bring in a pic of his setup, and sign a statement under threat of prosecution for perjury and a loss of firearms rights for a minimum of let's say, 5 years if his/her semi-auto military type firearms are stolen from home, and there is evidence that the firearms were not securly stored - if a bad actor can remove the whole safe, and the evidence supports that, no charges against the firearm owner

NFA weapons and devices -

Rescind the section of the Firearms Owners Protection Act prohibiting the manufacture of new machine guns - since 1934, there has been ONE crime known to have been commited with prosecution resulting in conviction from possession of a registered MG, and I'm ashamed to admit that it was a LEO who commited the crime. Registered weapons and devices have not been and are not a problem. With the buy in point where it is, even assuming a drop in price for the lower end of the price scale, anybody willing to go through the whole process and a 5 figure investment isn't likely to act out in any criminal fashion.

Oh yeah, carry permit fees, CoE licenses etc, have to be reasonably related to the costs to administer, no $10,000.00 permit fees...

Fire away, I know I'm going to get it from both sides.
It took me a half a second to work out you didn't mean Church of England then

Lol
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 07:10 PM   #12
Reheat
Illuminator
 
Reheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,564
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It seems to me the essential problem is not devising workable legislation that might improve the situation. The problem is the gun culture and the love of guns, and the absolute determination of the gun-lovers not to allow any such legislation to pass
No, this is a gross distorted exaggeration. It's not that nothing will pass, it's the stupid stuff that has and continues to be attempted by those who insist we've got to do something/anything.

Your over simplified accusatory comments also ignores the fact that the right to own/bear firearms is embedded in the US Constitution. Some folks would like to ignore that. Many people have no knowledge of our laws and know very little or nothing about firearms period. I'm referring to the "gun culture" and "gun-lover" meme that is so popular in some circles here on this forum.

Some are mislead by what is termed "reasonable gun control". For anyone who uses that term their suggestions are usually anything but reasonable. Just more of the same crap.
__________________
[Noc]
Reheat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 07:11 PM   #13
phiwum
Philosopher
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,818
I spoke to my redneck brother today and was surprised by the nuance of his position.

He's a gun-owner. He owns two AR-15 style rifles, which he doesn't particularly like. They are overrated, as far as he's concerned.

He said that there's no point in folks owning military style rifles like that, that they should have been outlawed thirty years ago, but the cat's out of the bag now and there's no reason to do so today.

This shocked me, since I regard him as a very loyal NRA member. Now, it's not at all clear to me that thirty years ago he would have been okay with outlawing such weapons. This may all be hindsight speaking.

I'm not here to defend his view, but merely to report what was for me a surprising position from an inveterate gun lover, a man who owns and fires, oh, let's say, two dozen or so guns. He lives in the country, has a little firing range out his back door. He carries a gun regularly for self-protection (his need for which seems really minimal to me -- I live in an urban area and do not own, much less carry, a gun).
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 07:21 PM   #14
Reheat
Illuminator
 
Reheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,564
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Fire away, I know I'm going to get it from both sides.
It's obvious that you're writing that from a CA perspective.

Why force a NICS check on every sale. I think the license or card produced for proof that one has NICS clearance is good enough. A renewal period would be required. That would not be very much more intrusive than the current system. Everyone would have to keep records of transactions, which many won't like. However, this would still permit trading and private sales.

I do like your sentencing suggestions. That is a must with any related legislation.

I have no interest in NFA stuff, so no comment on that part...
__________________
[Noc]
Reheat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 07:30 PM   #15
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,894
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
No, this is a gross distorted exaggeration. It's not that nothing will pass, it's the stupid stuff that has and continues to be attempted by those who insist we've got to do something/anything.

Your over simplified accusatory comments also ignores the fact that the right to own/bear firearms is embedded in the US Constitution. Some folks would like to ignore that. Many people have no knowledge of our laws and know very little or nothing about firearms period. I'm referring to the "gun culture" and "gun-lover" meme that is so popular in some circles here on this forum.

Some are mislead by what is termed "reasonable gun control". For anyone who uses that term their suggestions are usually anything but reasonable. Just more of the same crap.

A nation that values some words written on a bit of paper a couple of hundred years ago, by people who had no notion at all of automatic weapons or spree killers (and who were actually talking about maintaining a militia), over the lives of its actual children, needs to have a word with itself.

I heard some squealing here, after Dunblane. I'm a good guy, target shooting is my hobby, why should my hobby be interfered with by polticians when I have no intention of shooting a bunch of little children? But as a country we valued the lives of our children over and above his hobby. Go find something else to occupy your leisure hours, was the message, and he had to do that.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 7th November 2017 at 07:33 PM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 07:37 PM   #16
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,457
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
No, this is a gross distorted exaggeration. It's not that nothing will pass, it's the stupid stuff that has and continues to be attempted by those who insist we've got to do something/anything.

Your over simplified accusatory comments also ignores the fact that the right to own/bear firearms is embedded in the US Constitution. Some folks would like to ignore that. Many people have no knowledge of our laws and know very little or nothing about firearms period. I'm referring to the "gun culture" and "gun-lover" meme that is so popular in some circles here on this forum.

Some are mislead by what is termed "reasonable gun control". For anyone who uses that term their suggestions are usually anything but reasonable. Just more of the same crap.
"Some folks" also like to ignore that the constitution was written when there actually was a small chance of a tyrannical govt coming to get you and when people meant arms, they were talking barrel loaded one shot muskets or at a very big stretch, useless early multi loaded muskets.

And refuse to adapt to the situation in the modern world.

It's a bit like Young Earthers
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 08:08 PM   #17
Reheat
Illuminator
 
Reheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,564
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
A nation that values some words written on a bit of paper a couple of hundred years ago, by people who had no notion at all of automatic weapons or spree killers (and who were actually talking about maintaining a militia), over the lives of its actual children, needs to have a word with itself.
Surely, you must live in a thatched roof house because you seem to like straw.
__________________
[Noc]
Reheat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 08:37 PM   #18
Reheat
Illuminator
 
Reheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,564
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
"Some folks" also like to ignore that the constitution was written when there actually was a small chance of a tyrannical govt coming to get you and when people meant arms, they were talking barrel loaded one shot muskets or at a very big stretch, useless early multi loaded muskets.

And refuse to adapt to the situation in the modern world.
Since this is what you think how 'bout using a feather quill pen to participate in this forum.
__________________
[Noc]
Reheat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 08:52 PM   #19
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,457
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Since this is what you think how 'bout using a feather quill pen to participate in this forum.
Pens were made for the sole purpose of killing things?

I can safely say if multiple people started mass killing people by some sort of freaky easily available internet weapon of death I would want it controlled.

The closest we have at a stretch is terrorists using the internet to communicate and gun advocates are happy they are shut down and taken off them

Sent from my SM-J500Y using Tapatalk
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 08:52 PM   #20
jt512
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,661
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
This is why the USA will never sort gun control and has to learn to just live with regular massacres and a rate of gun deaths way higher than any equivalent country;

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/w...T.nav=top-news

"The United States is one of only three countries, along with Mexico and Guatemala, that begin with the opposite assumption: that people have an inherent right to own guns.
The main reason American regulation of gun ownership is so weak may be the fact that the trade-offs are simply given a different weight in the United States than they are anywhere else.
After Britain had a mass shooting in 1987, the country instituted strict gun control laws. So did Australia after a 1996 incident. But the United States has repeatedly faced the same calculus and determined that relatively unregulated gun ownership is worth the cost to society.
That choice, more than any statistic or regulation, is what most sets the United States apart.
“In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate,” Dan Hodges, a British journalist, wrote in a post on Twitter two years ago, referring to the 2012 attack that killed 20 young students at an elementary school in Connecticut. “Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”

I would go further back and Columbine. Once the USA decided children massacring other children was bearable it was over. Sandy Hook just confirmed that. There is never going to be a tipping point where enough people decide there has to be a change and guns have to be properly regulated.

The love felt for the gun exceeds the love felt for children.

That's a nice story that happens to fit the data. But, like a Malcolm Gladwell story, its relationship with the truth is unclear. Polls consistently show that most Americans want stronger gun controls. So why aren't America's elected representatives enacting stronger legislation? Because their election campaigns receive substantial funds from the NRA. It's not that Americans decided that massacring children was bearable; it's that America's reprehensible legislators decided that massacring children is more bearable than losing campaign funds from the NRA.

Last edited by jt512; 7th November 2017 at 09:34 PM.
jt512 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 08:54 PM   #21
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 10,498
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
It's obvious that you're writing that from a CA perspective.

Why force a NICS check on every sale. I think the license or card produced for proof that one has NICS clearance is good enough. A renewal period would be required. That would not be very much more intrusive than the current system. Everyone would have to keep records of transactions, which many won't like. However, this would still permit trading and private sales.

I do like your sentencing suggestions. That is a must with any related legislation.

I have no interest in NFA stuff, so no comment on that part...
A fellow forum member hipped me to the Illinois FOID system, which sounds like it's workable.

I would prefer that any transfer other than interfamilial be conducted through an FFL w/ a 4473.

For every person out there that wouldn't think of selling a firearm to somebody that they don't know well there are far more who don't gas. When I was a licensee, many would be buyers couldn't even get to first base - they had no valid I.D.

Having transfers go through an FFL would cut down on some of the questionable transfers.
__________________
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper, U.S.M.C.

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 08:57 PM   #22
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 10,498
Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
That's a nice theory that happens to fit the data. Whether it is true or not is another thing.

Polls consistently show that most Americans want stronger gun controls. So why aren't America's elected representatives enacting stronger legislation? Because their election campaigns are funded by the NRA.
Might want to visit cullennz's thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=324540
__________________
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper, U.S.M.C.

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 09:22 PM   #23
Reheat
Illuminator
 
Reheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,564
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
A fellow forum member hipped me to the Illinois FOID system, which sounds like it's workable.
If I'm not mistaken the IL FOID scheme requires the registration of every single firearm owned. That's Registration and won't sell. That's something else entirely. The License System I envision wouldn't do that. It would merely prove that an individual has passed a NICS check and is not prohibited.

Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I would prefer that any transfer other than interfamilial be conducted through an FFL w/ a 4473.
Well, family members can be prohibited too. I don't believe lawmakers would exempt any transactions.

Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
For every person out there that wouldn't think of selling a firearm to somebody that they don't know well there are far more who don't gas. When I was a licensee, many would be buyers couldn't even get to first base - they had no valid I.D.
I can believe that. A National NICS License would solve some of that problem.

Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Having transfers go through an FFL would cut down on some of the questionable transfers.
Maybe? I don't think that will sell to the voters.
__________________
[Noc]
Reheat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 09:23 PM   #24
Brainache
Nasty Brutish and Tall
 
Brainache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 16,852
Maybe if someone walked into the capitol building and shot up the congress, or something, things might change.

I am not advocating this.
Brainache is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 09:24 PM   #25
kedo1981
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,524
If instead of first graders and church goers and office coworkers you had massacres of Wall street CEOs and Washington lobbyists we would have gun bans in no time.
kedo1981 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 09:36 PM   #26
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 10,498
Originally Posted by kedo1981 View Post
If instead of first graders and church goers and office coworkers you had massacres of Wall street CEOs and Washington lobbyists we would have gun bans in no time.
Some of the the folks you mention employe people to make sure their possible victimization odds are very low. There is a whole industry that existed long before 9/11 of security companies manned by former go-fast unit operators that provide armed security for executives and VIP's.

I actually heard Michael Moore brag on the Howard Stern show about his Navy SEAL bodyguards.

Funny how many folks that can afford to hire a tier one operator armed with pretty much the same small arms currently used downrange hold the opinion that firearms aren't useful for self defense and shouldn't be generally available.
__________________
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper, U.S.M.C.

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 09:44 PM   #27
This is The End
 
This is The End's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,533
I love how people who don't live in the USA think it is here.

I live in a county with tens of thousands of people. A large percentage of the households have guns. Nothing ever happens here. There is literally less than one death from a gun per year in this county.

There are areas of the UK with the same amount of people as this county that have more gun deaths than we do. And they do it with way less guns per capita.

It is not the guns.
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 09:54 PM   #28
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,457
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
I love how people who don't live in the USA think it is here.

I live in a county with tens of thousands of people. A large percentage of the households have guns. Nothing ever happens here. There is literally less than one death from a gun per year in this county.

There are areas of the UK with the same amount of people as this county that have more gun deaths than we do. And they do it with way less guns per capita.

It is not the guns.
Not really surprising

The US is a massive place

Not really sure how it's relevant but all good



Sent from my SM-J500Y using Tapatalk
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 12:00 AM   #29
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 40,845
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
I love how people who don't live in the USA think it is here.

I live in a county with tens of thousands of people. A large percentage of the households have guns. Nothing ever happens here. There is literally less than one death from a gun per year in this county.

There are areas of the UK with the same amount of people as this county that have more gun deaths than we do. And they do it with way less guns per capita.

It is not the guns.
The exception that proves the rule.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 12:24 AM   #30
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 22,992
Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Maybe if someone walked into the capitol building and shot up the congress, or something, things might change.

I am not advocating this.
Already shot up a baseball game

IMO it would only entrench views. "Gun grabbers" would call for legislation "Gun nuts" would insist that all would have been good if only the victims had been armed
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 02:15 AM   #31
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 9,729
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I'm trying to understand what this means...
By sorting gun control, I mean have a system where only decent, responsible people have guns and criminals, angry people, those with certain mental health issues and youths find it very hard, to virtually impossible to get a gun.

The entire western world has achieved that, except the USA.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 02:19 AM   #32
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,255
Mass shootings is something that we will just have to live with in the USA. As long as no gun safety legislation happens, it will get worse. It's just the price we all pay so that a very small minority of Americans can have their toys to shoot stuff with.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 02:29 AM   #33
erlando
Graduate Poster
 
erlando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,315
"The people" keep funding the NRA which in turn keeps the money flowing to the people who could do something about it. Of course they are not going to because that would mean they would lose their jobs.

The love for the gun keeps the money flowing. And those dead people are just numbers on a piece of paper. "Thoughts and prayers" and move on.

The american people are quite willing to let other people die so that they can keep their precious killing devices. Because they're fun to play with. Dead children - bah humbug! 2nd amendment, bitch!
__________________
"If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved?
Evolution IS a blind watchmaker
erlando is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 02:31 AM   #34
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 9,729
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
No, this is a gross distorted exaggeration. It's not that nothing will pass, it's the stupid stuff that has and continues to be attempted by those who insist we've got to do something/anything.

Your over simplified accusatory comments also ignores the fact that the right to own/bear firearms is embedded in the US Constitution. Some folks would like to ignore that. Many people have no knowledge of our laws and know very little or nothing about firearms period. I'm referring to the "gun culture" and "gun-lover" meme that is so popular in some circles here on this forum.

Some are mislead by what is termed "reasonable gun control". For anyone who uses that term their suggestions are usually anything but reasonable. Just more of the same crap.
That the US has way more gun laws and regulations, which inconsistently apply and are applied across the country is one reason why there cannot be any real gun control.

For example, in Texas a person needs to be properly checked and permitted to have a CCW. But you can go into a Walmart and buy an AR15 with a minimal background check and a gun show with no check at all.

Another is Illinois allows handguns to be carried in cars, but not long guns.

If one state bans a certain type of weapon, they can still be had elsewhere.

A reason for the gun control in the UK being successful is one simple law covers the whole of the country. NI is excepted, but its law is very similar.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 02:33 AM   #35
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 9,729
Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
That's a nice story that happens to fit the data. But, like a Malcolm Gladwell story, its relationship with the truth is unclear. Polls consistently show that most Americans want stronger gun controls. So why aren't America's elected representatives enacting stronger legislation? Because their election campaigns receive substantial funds from the NRA. It's not that Americans decided that massacring children was bearable; it's that America's reprehensible legislators decided that massacring children is more bearable than losing campaign funds from the NRA.
Agreed, but Americans do keep voting for them.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 02:35 AM   #36
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,255
Originally Posted by erlando View Post
"The people" keep funding the NRA which in turn keeps the money flowing to the people who could do something about it. Of course they are not going to because that would mean they would lose their jobs.

The love for the gun keeps the money flowing. And those dead people are just numbers on a piece of paper. "Thoughts and prayers" and move on.

The american people are quite willing to let other people die so that they can keep their precious killing devices. Because they're fun to play with. Dead children - bah humbug! 2nd amendment, bitch!
Actually, it's the gun industry funding the NRA.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 02:36 AM   #37
TofuFighter
Graduate Poster
 
TofuFighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,543
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
That's Registration and won't sell.
... ... ...
Maybe? I don't think that will sell to the voters.
They might sell if it weren't a nation that values some words written on a bit of paper a couple of hundred years ago, by people who had no notion at all of automatic weapons or spree killers (and who were actually talking about maintaining a militia), over the lives of its actual children
__________________
"come on. Judas is meeting us at midnight with the getaway donkeys"
TofuFighter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 02:39 AM   #38
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,255
Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
They might sell if it weren't a nation that values some words written on a bit of paper a couple of hundred years ago, by people who had no notion at all of automatic weapons or spree killers (and who were actually talking about maintaining a militia), over the lives of its actual children
Yep, and the only value part of the words in that amendment ignoring the whole "well regulated militia" portion.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 02:41 AM   #39
DragonLady
Illuminator
 
DragonLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,752
I think there's another aspect to the issue no one wants to talk much about: people in the USA don't trust the government, because the government isn't trustable.

The USA has subjected citizens to unethical experiments, dropped a bomb on a Philadelphia neighborhood, continues to escalate it's use of military tactics against those merely suspected of crimes, and generally acts like a spoiled psychopath.

When people say "They can have my guns when...." They're talking about the government itself, because of incidents like Ruby Ridge and Waco.

Until the government -every branch, every elected official, every employee- starts treating citizens like a valuable resource instead of a bunch of semi-feral pets they don't really want, we will continue to see a huge segment of the population stockpiling weapons and making plans to protect themselves. Otherwise, they very much feel like sitting ducks, which is something else most Americans can't stand -feeling helpless.

When some idiot shoots up a concert or school, those same people see him as shooting their cause right in the foot, and become concerned the gun laws will change, putting them even more at the mercy of the government.

It's another vicious cycle, and it can only be stopped at the top to the chain -with the congress and supreme court. They need to start putting some teeth into the efforts to keep citizens safe from their own leaders, officials, and law enforcement officers.
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499

“She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch

The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One

Last edited by DragonLady; 8th November 2017 at 02:45 AM.
DragonLady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 02:45 AM   #40
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,255
Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I think there's another aspect to the issue no one wants to talk much about: people in the USA don't trust the government, because the government isn't trustable.
Kind of.. but not really. Much of this unethical and unlawful activity by the government was, and is still, done to minorities. The vast majority of gun nuts are white people who are scared of minorities. They appear to trust the police, but not "the government", which really means that they don't trust the government to uphold white supremacy anymore, where the police do. The gun issue is also a race issue.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:16 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.