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Old 8th November 2017, 02:02 PM   #81
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Didn't you just post another one of these stories in the other thread and then went on to describe it as "a bit of bad luck" and a "freak accident?"
Yes I think it shows how the people's relationship to guns does not change because of events like losing a child to them. They write it off as a freak accident as they did with the first negligent discharge that injured the grandmother and almost hit the girl who was later killed by her brother.

What does it take to fundamentally get people to change how they treat firearms?
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Old 8th November 2017, 02:04 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Actually, it's the gun industry funding the NRA.
Who do you think is funding the gun industry?
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Old 8th November 2017, 02:19 PM   #83
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.461f30bd42c1

"Shootings by toddlers are tragically common. A Washington Post survey in the fall found 43 instances in the first 10 months of 2015 in which someone had been shot by a child age 3 or younger. Of the 15 shootings that were fatal, 13 of them involved the toddlers inadvertently killing themselves."

It is like having cancer and not getting it treated, despite there being proven ways to have it cured, then leaving it until is too late and no cure will work because the cancer is too advanced.
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Old 8th November 2017, 02:20 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Who do you think is funding the gun industry?
Millions of Americans buying millions of guns, such that it has been estimated there are 88.8 guns per 100 people in the USA. The UK has 7 per 100 people.
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Old 8th November 2017, 02:22 PM   #85
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People speak with their wallet.
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Old 8th November 2017, 02:22 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.461f30bd42c1

"Shootings by toddlers are tragically common. A Washington Post survey in the fall found 43 instances in the first 10 months of 2015 in which someone had been shot by a child age 3 or younger. Of the 15 shootings that were fatal, 13 of them involved the toddlers inadvertently killing themselves."

It is like having cancer and not getting it treated, despite there being proven ways to have it cured, then leaving it until is too late and no cure will work because the cancer is too advanced.
It's just called evolution. It's cruel, yeah ..
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:07 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Illinois does not require registration of guns. My wife has a FOID card, but currently no guns. (She had one, but she gave it to my stepson.) The validity of the card is supposed to be verified before any private transfers, but the guns themselves do not have to be registered.

Chicago may have stricter rules, though.
Not exactly...
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:35 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO a case could be made that, due to the US' uniqueness, the US and the rest of the developed world are actually on divergent courses with their high (and growing) levels of distrust of the government, security self-sufficiency, gun culture and the use of guns becoming more entrenched and widespread in the US whilst in the rest of the developed world, gun usage and ownership falls and the populace rely on the police and other security services to look after their wellbeing.
Gun usage and ownership is dropping in the US, too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.08fe5e0f30e5

I can't say that I think gun culture has much purchase in New York City. I suspect the problem is magnified by the inflated importance given to rural areas by our broken political system.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:38 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Gun usage and ownership is dropping in the US, too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.08fe5e0f30e5

I can't say that I think gun culture has much purchase in New York City. I suspect the problem is magnified by the inflated importance given to rural areas by our broken political system.
How dare the rubes! They should know their place!
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:45 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
How dare the rubes! They should know their place!
Hmm? I think they should have equal representation.

Our political system is so broken, in fact, that saying we should have equal representation is somehow construed as a snobbish insult to rural populations by people with chips on their shoulder.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:45 PM   #91
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Ah, the "Think of the Children!" TOTC argument.

Yes, kids being killed by intentional or unintentional gunfire is a horrific thing.
Kids being killed by car accident is a horrific thing.
Kids being killed by drowning is a horrific thing.

Kids dying is a horrific thing, period. We don't cry TOTC when yet another kid is killed in a car accident or when yet another kid drowns at the beach or when yet another kid dies in a fire. Guns seem to bring out the nuttery (on both sides, it should be said).

So you say, "Americans must value guns and/or words in a two-hundred year old document more than their kids!" I say, "All of Western Civilization must value car ownership, owning a swimming pool, going to the beach, letting their kids drive, letting their kids drive in other people's vehicles, having various poisonous chemicals in the home, being able to cook meals in their home, leaving their kids unsupervised in the home . . . more than they value their children's lives."

Americans value freedom. Having freedom can have bad outcomes. We accept the 1159 deaths of children 0-14 in MVAs* as a tragic but inevitable price of having the freedom to operate cars. We accept the 636 lives of kids aged <14 lost to drowning as a tragic but inevitable price of having the freedom to build pools and visit natural bodies of water. In essence, the 379 lives lost to firearm related deaths are no different.

America simply values different freedoms than other countries do. Before you start wagging your finger at us for being barbarians who hate their kids, you should ask yourselves, "Do I value the ability to have motorized transport more than I value my kid's life?" Maybe then you will see the absurdity.

*Data
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:49 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Millions of Americans buying millions of guns, such that it has been estimated there are 88.8 guns per 100 people in the USA. The UK has 7 per 100 people.
Your presumpition is that gun ownership is inherently a bad thing. That is where we disagree.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:51 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
US society is very divided. Its history is of fighting and conquest, against native Americans, between the first settlers (British, French, Spanish), between each other (the war of Independence and the Civil War) and slavery.

All of that is very recent compared to the UK, which settled its main divide (religion) about three hundred years ago and did not have the other divisions regarding indigenous people etc.

SO the Brits are so superior to the Americans.


Ah, good old British arrogance towards the Colonials.....and underlying cause of the American Revolution.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:55 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeaahh but wait a minute. Your wording there is a bit disingenuous. Those "words written on a bit of paper" are the founding principles of the country. I think that's a bit more important than what you made it appear.

As for the lives of children, to be entirely fair to the other side, we already make compromises that put children in danger in order to protect other rights and principles, so this isn't new.
The hatred that Euro Lefties have for the US Constituion is easily explained:
The US Constitution puts definite limits on the power of Government.That is anathema to the Euro Lefties since their core belief is that Government is the answer to every problem.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:57 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Hmm? I think they should have equal representation.

Our political system is so broken, in fact, that saying we should have equal representation is somehow construed as a snobbish insult to rural populations by people with chips on their shoulder.
I missed your point. Is the political system broken by allowing the state of Montana to have the same number of Senators as California and N.Y. State, or is it broken because of the numbers of the Electors in the Electoral College?

My opinion is that the system is broken, but not because of the structure.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:58 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SO the Brits are so superior to the Americans.





Ah, good old British arrogance towards the Colonials.....and underlying cause of the American Revolution.


Which apparently was fighting amongst ourselves like the Civil War...
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:00 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I missed your point. Is the political system broken by allowing the state of Montana to have the same number of Senators as California and N.Y. State, or is it broken because of the numbers of the Electors in the Electoral College?
Yes.

Quote:
My opinion is that the system is broken, but not because of the structure.
That doesn't explain your theatrics.
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:28 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Ah, the "Think of the Children!" TOTC argument.

Yes, kids being killed by intentional or unintentional gunfire is a horrific thing.
Kids being killed by car accident is a horrific thing.
Kids being killed by drowning is a horrific thing.

Kids dying is a horrific thing, period. We don't cry TOTC when yet another kid is killed in a car accident or when yet another kid drowns at the beach or when yet another kid dies in a fire. Guns seem to bring out the nuttery (on both sides, it should be said).

So you say, "Americans must value guns and/or words in a two-hundred year old document more than their kids!" I say, "All of Western Civilization must value car ownership, owning a swimming pool, going to the beach, letting their kids drive, letting their kids drive in other people's vehicles, having various poisonous chemicals in the home, being able to cook meals in their home, leaving their kids unsupervised in the home . . . more than they value their children's lives."

Americans value freedom. Having freedom can have bad outcomes. We accept the 1159 deaths of children 0-14 in MVAs* as a tragic but inevitable price of having the freedom to operate cars. We accept the 636 lives of kids aged <14 lost to drowning as a tragic but inevitable price of having the freedom to build pools and visit natural bodies of water. In essence, the 379 lives lost to firearm related deaths are no different.

America simply values different freedoms than other countries do. Before you start wagging your finger at us for being barbarians who hate their kids, you should ask yourselves, "Do I value the ability to have motorized transport more than I value my kid's life?" Maybe then you will see the absurdity.

*Data
And yet we mandate alarmed gates on swimming pools, crash-tested car seats for children enforced by law up to age 12, putting child-proof caps on bottles of harmful chemicals plus adding denatonium (Bitrex) to them to prevent children drinking them, child-proof caps on medicines; we have campaigns to educate parents about laying babies on their backs to prevent suffocation and SIDS, and we mandate fireproof materials for furnishings and for children's clothing.

We cannot prevent every accidental death of a child, but we can - and do - legislate to protect children as much as we can. Where is the legislation to protect children from being shot?
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:50 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Yes.


That doesn't explain your theatrics.
My first response to your post must have hit a little too close to home.

You are far from the first person I've encountered that takes issue with the political power of flyover country. IRL, I've been told straight out that the reason we ended up Trumped is the "rubes" (their term) he conned into voting for him. I've also had RW discussions with folks who see no harm in "changing the landscape" to ensure that this doesn't happen again, usually by eliminating the electoral college, which is why I asked you that question in the first place.

With any luck, we can rustle up a Constitutional Convention and we'll ******* the EC and the 2nd Amendment, but don't be too surprised if some other advocates are able to get in on the fun and ******* or gut the 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments and Roe v. Wade too.
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Old 8th November 2017, 05:14 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
And yet we mandate alarmed gates on swimming pools, crash-tested car seats for children enforced by law up to age 12, putting child-proof caps on bottles of harmful chemicals plus adding denatonium (Bitrex) to them to prevent children drinking them, child-proof caps on medicines; we have campaigns to educate parents about laying babies on their backs to prevent suffocation and SIDS, and we mandate fireproof materials for furnishings and for children's clothing.



We cannot prevent every accidental death of a child, but we can - and do - legislate to protect children as much as we can. Where is the legislation to protect children from being shot?

Thereís plenty of legislation about shooting kids. Itís illegal to shoot one, as far as I know. Many States criminalize negligent storage of guns or allowing a child to access guns.

But this thread isnít about common sense laws that can help mitigate the problem. This thread is basically, ďAmericans love guns more than kids!Ē IOW, Americans are just child-hating barbarians and thatís why they wonít regulate guns. Bull; we regulate guns in much the same way we regulate other dangerous items that we allow people the freedom to possess. That we value the freedom to own guns doesnít make us bad people anymore than valuing the freedom to own cars would make someone a bad person.
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Old 8th November 2017, 05:15 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
That's a nice story that happens to fit the data. But, like a Malcolm Gladwell story, its relationship with the truth is unclear. Polls consistently show that most Americans want stronger gun controls. So why aren't America's elected representatives enacting stronger legislation? Because their election campaigns receive substantial funds from the NRA. It's not that Americans decided that massacring children was bearable; it's that America's reprehensible legislators decided that massacring children is more bearable than losing campaign funds from the NRA.
A small temporary majority. And it's not a great vote winner.

Restricting rights is more unpopular with those whose rights are restricted that it is popular with those whose aren't.

http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-con...guns-05-02.png
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Old 8th November 2017, 05:25 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly we shouldn't mistake the police for a part of the government, we need to think of them as entirely made up of armed thugs.
If there is no police force, the government will find other armed thugs to use.
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Old 8th November 2017, 05:28 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
A small temporary majority. And it's not a great vote winner.

Restricting rights is more unpopular with those whose rights are restricted that it is popular with those whose aren't.

http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-con...guns-05-02.png
Truer words have never been spoken.

There is a poster on this forum who goes apoplectic if a jurisdiction seeks to curb abortion rights but has made many posts supporting a jurisdiction that seeks to restrict or ban 2nd Amendment rights.
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Old 8th November 2017, 05:30 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
The people involved included the elected mayor, and other town officials. Almost none (or none?) of them faced any real penalties.

People here are not afraid members of Congress will come marching into the house. We're afraid the local PD will, or a unit from one of the military bases. However, if that ever happens, it will be at the behest of much higher agencies (ATF, FBI, CIA, etc.) and / or elected officials. Even if the actions are entirely illegal, we don't trust that to be a deterrent, any more than we expect laws to deter other types of criminals. Nor do we hold any hope those who bring about these acts will face any real justice on our behalf.
...

.
Case of "If only the Czar/Comrade Stalin/Hizzoner Goode knew"
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Old 8th November 2017, 05:40 PM   #105
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What would be the least purposeful step in the right direction ?

You can force private sales through FFL holder, with BG check. But that wouldn't eliminate straw purchases. But it would at least make them automatically illegal.

I would also step harder on rapid fire devices, which basically side-step automatic fire ban, but that seems to be happening anyway ..

And I could trade in silly gun limitations. Like short barrel rifles.

That btw. also part of the problem. Very often people from anti-gun crowd have idiotic proposals showing absolute ignorance about guns. That just makes pro-gun crowd more hard headed.
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Old 8th November 2017, 05:51 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
My first response to your post must have hit a little too close to home.
Or it was just a ludicrous invention.
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Old 8th November 2017, 06:03 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
What would be the least purposeful step in the right direction ?

You can force private sales through FFL holder, with BG check. But that wouldn't eliminate straw purchases. But it would at least make them automatically illegal.

I would also step harder on rapid fire devices, which basically side-step automatic fire ban, but that seems to be happening anyway ..

And I could trade in silly gun limitations. Like short barrel rifles.

That btw. also part of the problem. Very often people from anti-gun crowd have idiotic proposals showing absolute ignorance about guns. That just makes pro-gun crowd more hard headed.
Case in point. The East Bay state legislator who stated that the next step after banning high capacity magazines is to ban high capacity ammunition, you know, the kind you use in a high capacity magazine!

I **** you not.

Then there is this loonytoon:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


FTR, a "bullet button" has no effect whatsoever on any part of the fire control group on any firearm. It only disables a conventional magazine release so as to require the use of a tool to change magazines, as called for in then current California law. But hey, when you're on a roll why let reality get in the way. He isn't the only idiot that has made that assertion:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 8th November 2017, 08:30 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
So why aren't America's elected representatives enacting stronger legislation? Because their election campaigns receive substantial funds from the NRA. It's not that Americans decided that massacring children was bearable; it's that America's reprehensible legislators decided that massacring children is more bearable than losing campaign funds from the NRA.
That doesn't wash. Money is not votes. Coca-Cola money couldn't convince people to vote for New Coke. Ford money couldn't buy votes for the Edsel. Hillary Clinton outspent Trump and Putin can be combined.

If the American people really wanted a gun ban, the NRA couldn't pay career politicians enough to vote against it.

Speaking of paying enough, do you have figures on some of that NRA lobbying you claim is the deciding factor here?
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Old 8th November 2017, 08:32 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The exception that proves the rule.
It's not the exception, though.
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Old 8th November 2017, 09:57 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
A small temporary majority. And it's not a great vote winner.

Restricting rights is more unpopular with those whose rights are restricted that it is popular with those whose aren't.

http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-con...guns-05-02.png
Am I the only one that finds those choices given a bit stupid?

Where is the

"Protect the rights of responsible gun owners to own guns, while making sure those with violent criminal, mental health or domestic violence issues are restricted from owning them" Option?

It is always so all in each way with these idiots

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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 8th November 2017 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 8th November 2017, 11:58 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not the exception, though.

These threads are pointless. It's like trying to convince a religious person that they have been brainwashed.

The lie is so ingrained into their lives that contradictory evidence has no place in their brain. Facts that do not agree with their beliefs are quite literally incompatible with their everyday thought processes.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:07 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The hatred that Euro Lefties have for the US Constituion is easily explained:
The US Constitution puts definite limits on the power of Government.That is anathema to the Euro Lefties since their core belief is that Government is the answer to every problem.
So much crap. Crap, crap, craptastic.......Mountains of the stuff.

What's wrong with your constitution is that it embeds and underpins a gun culture in what would otherwise be a civilised modern society. That's it. That's all of it.

As for the tosh about "government is the answer to every problem".........governments exist. They generally function effectively as part of society. They are therefore part of the solution to many problems. For any populace to pretend otherwise is delusional.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:13 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Ah, the "Think of the Children!" TOTC argument.

Yes, kids being killed by intentional or unintentional gunfire is a horrific thing.
Kids being killed by car accident is a horrific thing.
Kids being killed by drowning is a horrific thing.

Kids dying is a horrific thing, period. We don't cry TOTC when yet another kid is killed in a car accident or when yet another kid drowns at the beach or when yet another kid dies in a fire. Guns seem to bring out the nuttery (on both sides, it should be said).

So you say, "Americans must value guns and/or words in a two-hundred year old document more than their kids!" I say, "All of Western Civilization must value car ownership, owning a swimming pool, going to the beach, letting their kids drive, letting their kids drive in other people's vehicles, having various poisonous chemicals in the home, being able to cook meals in their home, leaving their kids unsupervised in the home . . . more than they value their children's lives."

Americans value freedom. Having freedom can have bad outcomes. We accept the 1159 deaths of children 0-14 in MVAs* as a tragic but inevitable price of having the freedom to operate cars. We accept the 636 lives of kids aged <14 lost to drowning as a tragic but inevitable price of having the freedom to build pools and visit natural bodies of water. In essence, the 379 lives lost to firearm related deaths are no different.

America simply values different freedoms than other countries do. Before you start wagging your finger at us for being barbarians who hate their kids, you should ask yourselves, "Do I value the ability to have motorized transport more than I value my kid's life?" Maybe then you will see the absurdity.

*Data
Oh dear.....

In any and all of the fields you mention (car safety, swimming pool ownership, home chemicals, child supervision and so on) laws are enacted to improve safety and reduce the sort of accidents you mention. Quite rightly so. However, you just watch the spittle start to fly when anyone suggests that the same principle ought to apply to guns.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:28 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Oh dear.....

In any and all of the fields you mention (car safety, swimming pool ownership, home chemicals, child supervision and so on) laws are enacted to improve safety and reduce the sort of accidents you mention. Quite rightly so. However, you just watch the spittle start to fly when anyone suggests that the same principle ought to apply to guns.
That's it. The swimming pool etc analogy is not only false, but tiresome.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:34 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Different thread, same old tired *****.
Another month, another mass shooting in America.

Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
If the United States is so horrible, why to people keep moving there?

With the way some folks describe it no one in their right mind would want to step foot there, yet people of all races still flock there.

Something seems odd.
Just FYI, they flock here to Australia too.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:42 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
America simply values different freedoms than other countries do. Before you start wagging your finger at us for being barbarians who hate their kids, you should ask yourselves, "Do I value the ability to have motorized transport more than I value my kid's life?" Maybe then you will see the absurdity.
These things are not the same.
Guns are weapons, designed to do harm. None of your other examples are.

Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
These threads are pointless. It's like trying to convince a religious person that they have been brainwashed.

The lie is so ingrained into their lives that contradictory evidence has no place in their brain. Facts that do not agree with their beliefs are quite literally incompatible with their everyday thought processes.
I can't tell whether this is aimed at gun advocates or gun control advocates.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:50 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Another month, another mass shooting in America.

Just FYI, they flock here to Australia too.
And the UK. Record levels of tourism and net migration both unaffected by the lack of guns. Incredible, hey?
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Old 9th November 2017, 01:13 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
In essence, the 379 lives lost to firearm related deaths are no different.
And yet Kinder Eggs are outlawed in the US.....
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Old 9th November 2017, 01:22 AM   #119
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"I'll give you my Kinder Egg when you pry it from my cold, dead hands"
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Old 9th November 2017, 02:03 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
And yet Kinder Eggs are outlawed in the US.....
Lol

I read that the other day



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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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