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Old 9th November 2017, 02:09 AM   #121
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Actually. I think that haggis is banned in the US as well because it's too dangerous



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Old 9th November 2017, 02:23 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Ah, the "Think of the Children!" TOTC argument.

......
My argument is not TOTC, so there needs to be more gun control. My argument is that if kids massacring other kids was not enough to get the USA to try and reduce gun deaths, nothing will.

So, instead of more gun control, the USA just needs a coping strategy and to accept the deaths.
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Old 9th November 2017, 02:27 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Your presumpition is that gun ownership is inherently a bad thing. That is where we disagree.
I do not think gun ownership is inherently wrong. I used to work in firearms licensing and only refused to grant one person a licence out of the hundreds I dealt with.

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SO the Brits are so superior to the Americans.


Ah, good old British arrogance towards the Colonials.....and underlying cause of the American Revolution.
We are superior when it comes to effective gun control and low rates of death.
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Old 9th November 2017, 02:36 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Thereís plenty of legislation about shooting kids. Itís illegal to shoot one, as far as I know. Many States criminalize negligent storage of guns or allowing a child to access guns.

But this thread isnít about common sense laws that can help mitigate the problem. This thread is basically, ďAmericans love guns more than kids!Ē IOW, Americans are just child-hating barbarians and thatís why they wonít regulate guns. Bull; we regulate guns in much the same way we regulate other dangerous items that we allow people the freedom to possess. That we value the freedom to own guns doesnít make us bad people anymore than valuing the freedom to own cars would make someone a bad person.
The problem is that US gun control is patchwork, ineffective, often unenforced, and loophole ridden. It could be far more effective without infringing anyone's rights, but since even the massacring of kids by kids is not enough to unify the people and politicians will to have effective gun control, nothing will.
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Old 9th November 2017, 02:45 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Oh dear.....

In any and all of the fields you mention (car safety, swimming pool ownership, home chemicals, child supervision and so on) laws are enacted to improve safety and reduce the sort of accidents you mention. Quite rightly so. However, you just watch the spittle start to fly when anyone suggests that the same principle ought to apply to guns.
The point I think many miss is that swimming pools, cars and guns are all subject to legislation and controls to make them safer. The difference is that the legislation for cars and swimming pools has been effective and the legislation for guns has not.

The reasons why the gun legislation has not been effective is because it is not universal, simple, consistent and enforced.

The reason for that is because with guns comes an amendment and a historic culture. That is not going to change, so rather than bicker about what controls would work etc, the debate should switch to how to best cope with regular massacres and a high rate of gun deaths.

The USA has an incurable cancer and there needs to be more debate as how best to cope.
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Old 9th November 2017, 02:53 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post

I can't tell whether this is aimed at gun advocates or gun control advocates.
It is aimed at both, to say your debate is pointless as nothing can change and you need to debate how best to cope.
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Old 9th November 2017, 02:56 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Where is the

"Protect the rights of responsible gun owners to own guns, while making sure those with violent criminal, mental health or domestic violence issues are restricted from owning them" Option?

I don't think it's possible.

Any mechanism designed to keep firearms out of the hands of a selected group of people is going to, by necessity, have to monitor all transfers which many find unacceptable.
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:04 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Hmm? I think they should have equal representation.
Weighted of course by the race of those involved. You can't have hyphenated people treated as if they were the same as proper white folk.
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:06 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
We cannot prevent every accidental death of a child, but we can - and do - legislate to protect children as much as we can. Where is the legislation to protect children from being shot?
There isn't any and no one really wants it. After one kid shoots the other it doesn't change the way they treat firearms so we just have to view it as a senseless tragedy not something that can be prevented.
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:09 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
My first response to your post must have hit a little too close to home.

You are far from the first person I've encountered that takes issue with the political power of flyover country. IRL, I've been told straight out that the reason we ended up Trumped is the "rubes" (their term) he conned into voting for him. I've also had RW discussions with folks who see no harm in "changing the landscape" to ensure that this doesn't happen again, usually by eliminating the electoral college, which is why I asked you that question in the first place.

With any luck, we can rustle up a Constitutional Convention and we'll ******* the EC and the 2nd Amendment, but don't be too surprised if some other advocates are able to get in on the fun and ******* or gut the 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments and Roe v. Wade too.
We can all agree democracy is the enemy of america with all those wrong people voting. Hell some mexicans are federal judges now, something true americans from the heartland know is wrong and should never have been allowed. Hence their love of Trump. He is also doing a good job of putting the <snip> For Life in their place for their disrespectful kneeling. And hasn't been golfing once.

Those Official Truths are the america you love. Facts and data of course are totally meaningless when we already know the truth.

Edited by TubbaBlubba:  Removed violation of rule 10. Do not try to bypass the auto-censor.
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:11 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Thereís plenty of legislation about shooting kids. Itís illegal to shoot one, as far as I know. Many States criminalize negligent storage of guns or allowing a child to access guns.
But are these laws ever enforced or has the family suffered enough? Where are the people being charged with felonies and losing their guns for ever for a negligent discharge?

You can open fire in home depot, and only get a slap on the wrist and lose your concealed carry for a few years.
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:13 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Truer words have never been spoken.

There is a poster on this forum who goes apoplectic if a jurisdiction seeks to curb abortion rights but has made many posts supporting a jurisdiction that seeks to restrict or ban 2nd Amendment rights.
Exactly when some slutty 8 year old gets knocked up by her step father she deserves what she gets. And if she dies from the twins that is gods will. That is catholicism 101 people.
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:15 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That doesn't wash. Money is not votes. Coca-Cola money couldn't convince people to vote for New Coke. Ford money couldn't buy votes for the Edsel. Hillary Clinton outspent Trump and Putin can be combined.

If the American people really wanted a gun ban, the NRA couldn't pay career politicians enough to vote against it.

Speaking of paying enough, do you have figures on some of that NRA lobbying you claim is the deciding factor here?
Which is why so many gun owners lie about wanting universal background checks and not wanting criminals to get guns. If they really wanted it they would write the laws to do that. They like it as it is and want to get rid of things like that bs training to concealed carry.
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:17 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
And yet Kinder Eggs are outlawed in the US.....
We should put guns in them, that would get them legalized and accepted.
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:49 AM   #135
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The only gun problem the United States has is that not enough people have one
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Old 9th November 2017, 06:55 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is aimed at both, to say your debate is pointless as nothing can change and you need to debate how best to cope.
it's possible your aim was a bit off with this post.
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:27 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
A nation that values some words written on a bit of paper a couple of hundred years ago, by people who had no notion at all of automatic weapons or spree killers (and who were actually talking about maintaining a militia), over the lives of its actual children, needs to have a word with itself.
Can you clarify your thinking, here? The words in question are actually laws. Laws have value, yes? Are you suggesting that a nation ignore its own laws, just to get the outcome you desire?

And in fact, the US has not ignored its own laws. The legislature and the courts regularly review and re-interpret the constitution in light of new circumstances and real-world testing of the principles. The Second Amendment itself has been the subject of much case law and statutory law.

Simply put, what would you have Americans do: Ignore their laws, or amend them?
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:32 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Can you clarify your thinking, here? The words in question are actually laws. Laws have value, yes? Are you suggesting that a nation ignore its own laws, just to get the outcome you desire?

And in fact, the US has not ignored its own laws. The legislature and the courts regularly review and re-interpret the constitution in light of new circumstances and real-world testing of the principles. The Second Amendment itself has been the subject of much case law and statutory law.

Simply put, what would you have Americans do: Ignore their laws, or amend them?
Amend them. I am sure Rolfe was not suggesting ignoring them. Which is ironic since there have been examples given of non enforcement of laws in the USA, whereas in the UK, firearms laws are rigorously enforced and sentences severe.
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:23 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But are these laws ever enforced or has the family suffered enough? Where are the people being charged with felonies and losing their guns for ever for a negligent discharge?

You can open fire in home depot, and only get a slap on the wrist and lose your concealed carry for a few years.
"Negligent discharge" sounds a lot like "failure to use a car seat." In both cases, someone acted recklessly and could have seriously hurt a kid; but, luckily, nothing happened. If you are pulled over for failure to properly secure your child in a car seat, you just get a misdemeanor citation -the same slap on the wrist as you say a negligent discharge gets- and you don't even lose or have restrictions placed on your driver's license.

Again, we punish gun safety violations in much the same way we punish vehicle and other safety violations. Has someone ever been prosecuted under: "It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling?"
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:32 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
My argument is not TOTC, so there needs to be more gun control. My argument is that if kids massacring other kids was not enough to get the USA to try and reduce gun deaths, nothing will.
That's just another form of the TOTC argument. You are using the emotion attached to child deaths in order to make your case. This idea was expanded on in later posts by others.

Quote:
So, instead of more gun control, the USA just needs a coping strategy and to accept the deaths.
See, there it is right there. Is it any less tragic/emotional when a child dies in a car accident because they weren't properly restrained? Or even when they were properly restrained? I mean, it's very much stating the obvious: We need a coping strategy and to accept all forms of death. In terms of necessity for coping and acceptance: Why is gun death different from vehicle death? Why are those deaths different from deaths due to participating in sports? We have to cope with and accept these deaths as the price of having the freedoms we value.

Your beef seems to be with the fact that Americans value the freedom to own guns.
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:34 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The problem is that US gun control is patchwork, ineffective, often unenforced, and loophole ridden. It could be far more effective without infringing anyone's rights, but since even the massacring of kids by kids is not enough to unify the people and politicians will to have effective gun control, nothing will.
Sounds like our approach to child safety seats in vehicles, no? Thousands of kids die every year in MVAs so obviously, car seat laws are ineffective, unenforced and loophole ridden. If thousands of child deaths is not enough to motivate us to change our view of vehicle safety, then what will be?
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:49 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Amend them. I am sure Rolfe was not suggesting ignoring them.
See, that's what's never clear to me. This gets brought up a lot, and the tone always seems to imply that Americans can't bring themselves to ignore their laws when necessary. But in fact the reality is different: Americans simply don't disagree with the law as it stands, not in sufficient numbers to change it.

Rolfe seems to think we worship the second amendment because it is old, or something. But the truth is that we don't worship it. We just agree with it. When we reject some gun control proposal on Second Amendment grounds, we're not rejecting it because we think the proposal is blasphemous. We're rejecting it because it would violate the law.

There's something bigoted in Rolfe's framing of the issue. I would like Rolfe to reconsider their framing, and either acknowledge the bigotry, or renounce the bigotry in favor of a more reasonable discussion of policy.
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:53 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
My argument is not TOTC, so there needs to be more gun control. My argument is that if kids massacring other kids was not enough to get the USA to try and reduce gun deaths, nothing will.
The USA does try to reduce gun deaths. Indeed, the USA succeeds in reducing gun deaths--the trend is downward year after year.

I think the real reason America offends European sensibilities so much is that we manage to keep reducing gun deaths without being Properly Hoplophobic.
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:59 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
"Negligent discharge" sounds a lot like "failure to use a car seat." In both cases, someone acted recklessly and could have seriously hurt a kid; but, luckily, nothing happened. If you are pulled over for failure to properly secure your child in a car seat, you just get a misdemeanor citation -the same slap on the wrist as you say a negligent discharge gets- and you don't even lose or have restrictions placed on your driver's license.

Again, we punish gun safety violations in much the same way we punish vehicle and other safety violations. Has someone ever been prosecuted under: "It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling?"
That is from the idea that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge onlu negligent ones
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:03 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The USA does try to reduce gun deaths. Indeed, the USA succeeds in reducing gun deaths--the trend is downward year after year.

I think the real reason America offends European sensibilities so much is that we manage to keep reducing gun deaths without being Properly Hoplophobic.
Wow, you must be so proud of having a rate ten times that of Canada*. Well done..........




* Never mind that Canada's rate is 6 times that of Britain, and that (obviously) the USA's rate is 60 times that of the UK. Obviously it's just inflammatory to mention that.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:08 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
.......There's something bigoted in Rolfe's framing of the issue. I would like Rolfe to reconsider their framing, and either acknowledge the bigotry, or renounce the bigotry in favor of a more reasonable discussion of policy.
Jesus, you've just got to be kidding.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:11 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The sheer number of guns is another reason why the USA will never be able to have successful gun control and vastly reduced instances of shootings.

It is why I think discussing how to control guns is a waste of time and the debate should be how best to cope with an out of control, un-solvable, gun problem.
You can't let the perfect be the enemy of progress. Yes, there are a lot of guns in the US, and a lot of people who feel strongly about having them.

About 150ish years ago, there were four million enslaved people in the US. There were also a lot of people who felt very strongly about the inferior status of black people.

The fact that in ~150 years we could go from dark skinned people being property, with their children literally sold away, to having a dark skinned President, makes me reluctant to throw up my hands and despair ever achieving change just because a problem is large.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:14 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Wow, you must be so proud of having a rate ten times that of Canada*. Well done..........
Sarcasm, the last refuge of the unserious argument.

You're changing the subject. Nessie says the US doesn't try to reduce gun deaths. That's just not true.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
: rolleyes :: eek : Jesus, you've just got to be kidding.
Nope. The general tone of these threads over the years has convinced me that the primary motivation, by far, for castigating the US over gun control, is bigotry.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:14 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
That's just another form of the TOTC argument. You are using the emotion attached to child deaths in order to make your case. This idea was expanded on in later posts by others.
The child comment was just to show that the USA will/can not control guns. Tolerating child deaths is not one of the reasons there will/can not be gun control to prevent massacres and a high death rate.

Quote:
See, there it is right there. Is it any less tragic/emotional when a child dies in a car accident because they weren't properly restrained? Or even when they were properly restrained? I mean, it's very much stating the obvious: We need a coping strategy and to accept all forms of death. In terms of necessity for coping and acceptance: Why is gun death different from vehicle death? Why are those deaths different from deaths due to participating in sports? We have to cope with and accept these deaths as the price of having the freedoms we value.
Any preventable child death is tragic. The issue is that whilst the USA does/can deal with road fatalities, it cannot/will not deal with gun fatalities.

Quote:
Your beef seems to be with the fact that Americans value the freedom to own guns.
I used to enquire into and grant firearms certificates in the UK and I worked as a security guard in the USA (unarmed, but with armed people), so I can show I have no problem with guns.

There is a freedom to own guns in the rest of the western world. The UK licensing system is similar to what is needed to get a CCW in Texas. So, UK people enjoy a similar freedom to Texan CCW permit holders.

My only beef is when it is ridiculously easy for criminals, nuts, angry people and kids to get hold of guns.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:15 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Sounds like our approach to child safety seats in vehicles, no? Thousands of kids die every year in MVAs so obviously, car seat laws are ineffective, unenforced and loophole ridden. If thousands of child deaths is not enough to motivate us to change our view of vehicle safety, then what will be?
If that is true and there is a lack of enforcement of child safety in cars and that is a cause of an unnecessary increase in child deaths, then yes, the USA has another problem.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:20 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The USA does try to reduce gun deaths. Indeed, the USA succeeds in reducing gun deaths--the trend is downward year after year.
You need to show legislation reduces deaths and not some other cause (like the lead in petrol claim). That reduction is going to be limited by legislation, so it often only applies to one state and one issue. Reducing an epidemic to slightly less of an epidemic, does not end the epidemic.

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I think the real reason America offends European sensibilities so much is that we manage to keep reducing gun deaths without being Properly Hoplophobic.
You need to evidence there is a European wide irrational fear of weapons. Just because we have better gun control and fewer weapons does not mean we fear them.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:23 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Case in point..[etc]
It always amazes me how journos and "persons in authority" can be so ignorant of how guns work. The damned things are purpose designed to be simple; so pretty much any bozo can pick one up and use it. Idiot proof...squaddie proof as we say in the UK (possible exception of long-range precision shooting excepted).
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:24 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
You can't let the perfect be the enemy of progress. Yes, there are a lot of guns in the US, and a lot of people who feel strongly about having them.

About 150ish years ago, there were four million enslaved people in the US. There were also a lot of people who felt very strongly about the inferior status of black people.

The fact that in ~150 years we could go from dark skinned people being property, with their children literally sold away, to having a dark skinned President, makes me reluctant to throw up my hands and despair ever achieving change just because a problem is large.
I think you are missing the point. I am arguing that the USA cannot and will not get its gun problem properly under control. It may achieve some slight reductions, but that is it. Perfection is a moot point.

That is why I have made the incurable cancer and amputee comparisons. Learn to cope, you cannot cure.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:27 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nope. The general tone of these threads over the years has convinced me that the primary motivation, by far, for castigating the US over gun control, is bigotry.
Either bigotry, or an unhealthy inferiority complex regarding US freedoms.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:28 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The USA does try to reduce gun deaths. Indeed, the USA succeeds in reducing gun deaths--the trend is downward year after year.

Are the statistics adjusted to accommodate medical advances?
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:31 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post



* Never mind that Canada's rate is 6 times that of Britain, and that (obviously) the USA's rate is 60 times that of the UK. Obviously it's just inflammatory to mention that.
Not inflammatory, just silly. Surely the relevant metric is overall homicide rate (where the UK has about a quarter of the rate of the USA) and then to discuss how availability of firearms might be affecting that disparity. (#alldeathsmatter)

One interesting factoid... for a couple of centuries (i.e. since before the impact of gun control), the USA has consistently had a homicide rate about 4 times that of the UK.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:36 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sarcasm, the last refuge of the unserious argument.
Well your argument was so absurd it deserved nothing else. Mt Everest is losing height every year, unlike the Washington Monument. I am sure you can work out the rest of that allegory for yourself.

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You're changing the subject. Nessie says the US doesn't try to reduce gun deaths. That's just not true.........
It really doesn't try very hard. It won't try anything that makes it more difficult for people to own guns, for instance: the one thing which would make a difference.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:37 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Can you clarify your thinking, here? The words in question are actually laws. Laws have value, yes? Are you suggesting that a nation ignore its own laws, just to get the outcome you desire?

And in fact, the US has not ignored its own laws. The legislature and the courts regularly review and re-interpret the constitution in light of new circumstances and real-world testing of the principles. The Second Amendment itself has been the subject of much case law and statutory law.

Simply put, what would you have Americans do: Ignore their laws, or amend them?

What Nessie said. But also, what you said yourself. Laws are regularly revisited and reinterpreted in the USA as in all other countries. Any constitution can be amended. Blind veneration of a text hundreds of years old which can't accommodate modern circumstances is religion, not sense.

And it's not the outcome I desire. I don't have a dog in this fight. But I am concerned, as a human being, when I see children gunned down as a result of a dysfunctional society, so I express an opinion.

The blind veneration of "the constitution" seems to be too ingrained though. Children will go on dying and all that will happen is more "thoughts and prayers", until the next one.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:38 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
.......One interesting factoid... for a couple of centuries (i.e. since before the impact of gun control), the USA has consistently had a homicide rate about 4 times that of the UK.
When do you think this happened in the UK?
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:43 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
When do you think this happened in the UK?
Successive waves of legislation in the 20th century. Mostly after WW1 and then again after 1997.


To save you from future futile "gotcha" effort; I was born and lived in the UK for 30 years, I have some knowledge whereof I speak.
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