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Old 9th November 2017, 04:08 PM   #201
Scootch
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Outside of the 3/5ths rule I can't see any racism in the constitution (or even mention of race). Can you show me the racism in the Constitution? I am not saying it is not there and I am not a Constitutional scholar so it is a legitimate question and not a gotcha question
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:12 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
In your neck of the woods, do children "go on dying?" Have you enacted legislation to seriously curtail the use of cars, swimming pools, beaches, poisons, plastic bags, ropes, power tools, etc? Is your society dysfunctional because kids are run down in the roads or allowed to drown in your pools and beaches?

As a human being, I am greatly saddened when kids are hurt or killed through preventible means, as I'm sure you are. But I also realize that if we are going to allow people to have the freedom to drive cars, own swimming pools, go to the beach, have guns, etc, that there is going to be a certain level of injury and death that is unavoidable no matter what laws we pass short of seriously curtailing freedoms.

The reason that we like our Constitution so much is that it makes it very difficult for our government to take away our freedoms. Indeed, even if there was no direct mention of the right to bear arms in the second amendment, it would still be very difficult to curtail that right because of the Ninth Amendment: "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." In other words, just because a certain right is not specifically named in the Constitution does not mean that the people don't have that right. The Constitution is all about restricting the power of the Federal Government. That's really the defining principle of America.

The European nations didn't start from that so they don't value it in the same way that Americans do. It's that simple.

In my country we had 16 children gunned down in a school. In 1996. We enacted legislation that seriously curtailed the use of guns, and we have had no more children gunned down.

I can't recall hearing of any child drowning in a swimming pool in Scotland. There may be a reason for that I can't quite put my finger on, but if it was something that was happening perhaps we would enact legislation about that too.

We have enacted legislation that compels parents to use approved car seats for their children, and all sorts of other things relating to air bags and crumple zones and so on. We redesign roads to eliminate dangerous features. The rate of road deaths has come down so much that doctors are concerned about the lack of organs for transplant. (Every rose has a thorn.) And still we continue to enact legislation to bring the rate down further. Maybe it will be driverless cars soon, who knows. We don't just sit back and say, well we can't stop driving cars so too bad kids get killed live with it.

You guys aren't even trying to enact laws that might seriously reduce the level of carnage that's occurring with these mass shooting incidents. Oh noes my freedoms might be curtailed, don't do anything!

The rest of it is just irrational reverence for something someone wrote a few hundred years ago. It's like a religion with you guys. You know, it's fine to respect an iconic text that's central to your country's history. I respect the Declaration of Arbroath. But that doesn't mean I think monarchy is a sane way to govern anything in the 21st century. Put your holy book where it belongs, in history.
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:18 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Scootch View Post
Yes the government can be the enemy sometimes...........
So what works best in response? Voting it out, or guns?

Because that was the argument: you need guns to stop a government turning against the citizenry.


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And in today's times I think we can all agree the government is a little less friendly now with Trump.
Which misses the point that he got elected playing to the paranoia......"drain the swamp".
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:19 PM   #204
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No children have been gunned down in the UK since 1996? Is that for real?
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:22 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Scootch View Post
No children have been gunned down in the UK since 1996? Is that for real?
If you make that "children in school" then yes, it's for real.
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:31 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
That's fair enough. I wouldn't want to live in Europe or be a citizen there either. I love Texas and the US and that's as it should be.

That is how it should be. (*Rolfe smothers the recurring desire to be Icelandic and stuffs it behind the sofa.*)

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It's only appalling form your removed POV. Living here, people get healthcare, even the poorest of us. I've been on the bottom rung of society and the upper rungs; I've never faced a lack of healthcare and neither has anyone I personally know. We find a way to make what we have work for the most part.

Come on, I've read the articles and watched the documentaries about people so terrified by healthcare costs that they refuse to have serious conditions treated until they become critical. I've seen the statistics about healthcare-related bankruptcies. I know about the insurance premiums set for people with "pre-existing conditions". I've read about the response to the free healthcare clinics set up by charities used to doing the same thing in impoverished third-world countries. I've even seen the jaw-dropping amounts of money that are deducted from people's salaries for health insurance, and the "co-pays" (we'd call them excesses) that can still bankrupt the patient.

I don't think ordinary people in America can even imagine the lightness of spirit that goes with knowing that if you need healthcare it's there for you, because you and everyone else have been paying in to a system that's there for everyone. Hell, I'm even going to have to fight off NHS Scotland which is going to want to do a "just in case" colonoscopy on me in a year or two. I think it's gross over-investigation, I don't fancy the discomfort, and I don't want to have to have someone spend the night in my house afterwards. And I suspect they could use the money better for something else. But they have me in their sights and they don't want to let me away without that check-up. Who knows who will win. But even if I end up submitting, it won't cost me a penny.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This is just a difference in viewpoint. You can negotiate a quite good "holiday entitlement" (I genuinely love the way people from the UK refer to things!) without it being mandated by the government. My wife and I have six weeks paid time off per year. I can see why people would like that though, so if it works for you, great. I certainly wouldn't want that here because then the tendency would be to meet the government mandate and nothing more.

Nice that some people can negotiate a civilised holiday entitlement, but I know way too many Americans who are stuck with two weeks and even have to take any sick leave out of that to be envious. I don't really care whether it's a legal requirement or not, but a society where an employer can force someone to work for 50 weeks in a year isn't as civilised as it thinks it is.

And of course it's possible to negotiate a bit more on top of the statutory minimum. We get an extra three days "privilege holiday" because of some union negotiation about Christmas and New Year. But actually, come to think of it, the statutory minimum is something like four weeks including public holidays. Man, nobody settles for that. Five weeks in addition to public holidays is about the going rate, and many employers offer extra holiday days incrementally as a reward for long service. It's not your laws I have an issue here, it's the work-every-hour-God-sends mindset that people actually go along with.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If you are saying Scotland has no racism, then I don't believe you. If I (a brown person of Anglo/Mexican/Indian descent) visited Scotland and went to the local bar for a beer, would I not encounter any racism at all? I'll have to test that someday.

Of course Scotland is not free from racism, but everything's relative. If you, as "a brown person of Anglo/Mexican/Indian descent, visited Scotland and went to the local bar for a beer" I would be absolutely gobsmacked if you were to encounter any racist remarks. Someone might say something disparaging about Americans, in jest, that might be misconstrued, but it wouldn't be because of your colour, trust me on this.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I have lived in the US for 48 years. Never has anyone shot at me. I don't even know anyone who has been shot at in my extended circle of acquaintances. This despite the fact that most people I know own guns and I live in South Texas where there is some gang activity from the Mexican drug cartels. This would be like me saying, "I don't want to visit the UK because I might encounter a bomb at a concert or get run over on a bridge." The headlines are not the country.

I realise that I'm extremely unlikely to be shot at when I'm in the USA. But there have been a sufficient number of incidents where people have been shot that the nagging worry doesn't go away.

This isn't about whether one wants to visit a particular country or not. I'm up for visiting just about anywhere on the planet. It's about whether one would want to have been born or brought up as a citizen of a particular country. It's about having one's criticisms of America dismissed as jealousy because everyone apparently secretly wishes they were American and if they're critical it's only sour grapes. I wouldn't want to have been born or brought up American and I certainly don't wish I was American. Just trying to get that across to certain people.
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:39 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Scootch View Post
Outside of the 3/5ths rule I can't see any racism in the constitution (or even mention of race). Can you show me the racism in the Constitution? I am not saying it is not there and I am not a Constitutional scholar so it is a legitimate question and not a gotcha question
In addition to the 3/5ths rule (which shouldn't be glossed over), there's the 20 year entrenchment of the slave trade, and the fugitive slave clause. Slavery is seldom mentioned by name in the constitution, but that's largely damage control. Read what the delegates to the Philadelphia convention were saying at the time, and it becomes a hell of a lot more apparent why some of the powers and structures were put in place as they were. People like to believe that the electoral college was designed to over-represent small states--it wasn't, it was designed to inflate the power of slave states. We're still living with that Frankenstein's monster, 150 years after the end of slavery.
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Old 9th November 2017, 04:42 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Scootch View Post
No children have been gunned down in the UK since 1996? Is that for real?

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
If you make that "children in school" then yes, it's for real.

Pretty sure there hasn't been another mass shooting where children were targeted. The only other spree killer since then as far as I know was in Cumbria in 2010 when 12 people were killed by a gunman who had a car and was driving around shooting at people in different locations.

Here's the wiki page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings No children were killed and the youngest victim was 20 years old. Most of the victims were relatively elderly.

That wasn't in Scotland, either. (Close, but no cigar.) I don't think there has been a single incident in Scotland after 1996. But I won't press that point. Even considering Britain as a whole, Derrick Bird is the lot.

(I seem to recall an incident somewhere further south in England where some innocent teenagers were caught in the crossfire of some gangland shooting, but they weren't deliberately targeted.)
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Old 9th November 2017, 05:11 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Ask for a list of all the freedoms that Giz gained when moving to the US from Britain. It'll be "guns".
I find the way that the concepts of freedom (nebulously defined) and gun ownership are so closely intertwined for so many Americans to be really bizarre from the point of view of a citizen of the UK (I suspect it's true of most of the rest of the developed world too). But I think it's this as much as the 'love' of guns that places the obstacle.

The attitude that their own government and police force are an enemy to be feared is an outlier too (see posts earlier in this thread about police kicking down the door, does anyone in the UK who isn't a criminal have this make their top 100 concerns?).
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Old 9th November 2017, 05:32 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Well it is objectively and by almost any metric the greatest country in the history of the world.

The jealousy absolutely drips from your posts no matter how hard you try to cover it up. And it has for years now.

You know, that's about the best encapsulation of the insular-to-the-point-of-brainwashing mindset that characterises the worst of the small-town America thinking. America is the greatest, not because it's my country and most people think that about their own country, but "objectively". And if you don't happen to agree, you're jealous. And pointing out that no, you're really not, is "covering it up". It's unfalsifiable, I'll give it that.

I can't think of a single metric that I'd use to describe "greatest country" where America would head the rankings. Happiness, equality, GDP per capita, you name it, you're going to find small northern European nations doing best. Even Canada will get in there somewhere. But the good old US of A? Not a prayer.
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:01 PM   #211
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The US still leads in immigration, and its not even close.

Apparently a lot of people relish the chance at getting shot.
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:54 PM   #212
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Sandy Hook Shooting? Brainwashed sheep! That never happened, a video on YouTube said so.
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Old 10th November 2017, 01:41 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Well it is objectively and by almost any metric the greatest country in the history of the world.

The jealousy absolutely drips from your posts no matter how hard you try to cover it up. And it has for years now.
That you have to resort to posts like that, rather than use metrics to prove me wrong, shows you have run out of arguments.

Why is the allegedly greatest country unable to solve its gun death rate and number of massacres? Or is it that you like having such a high death rate and think it is a good thing?
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Old 10th November 2017, 01:52 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
In my country we had 16 children gunned down in a school. In 1996. We enacted legislation that seriously curtailed the use of guns, and we have had no more children gunned down.

I can't recall hearing of any child drowning in a swimming pool in Scotland. There may be a reason for that I can't quite put my finger on, but if it was something that was happening perhaps we would enact legislation about that too.
There have been two I can find, Inverness and Dundee. I also found one where a child drowned at a hotel in the north of England which was fined £100,000.

Quote:
We have enacted legislation that compels parents to use approved car seats for their children, and all sorts of other things relating to air bags and crumple zones and so on. We redesign roads to eliminate dangerous features. The rate of road deaths has come down so much that doctors are concerned about the lack of organs for transplant. (Every rose has a thorn.) And still we continue to enact legislation to bring the rate down further. Maybe it will be driverless cars soon, who knows. We don't just sit back and say, well we can't stop driving cars so too bad kids get killed live with it.
We at at the point it is as low as be achieved, the lowest was 4 in 2015 and it was 12 in 2016. As you say, perfection is not the reasonable aim.
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Old 10th November 2017, 01:57 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
If you make that "children in school" then yes, it's for real.
There was an accidental fatal shooting by one youth of another whilst hunting rabbits, in 2001 in Dunbar. A youth was shot and injured in an attack at a traveller site in Glasgow in 2003. That is it as far as I can find.
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:05 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Pretty sure there hasn't been another mass shooting where children were targeted. The only other spree killer since then as far as I know was in Cumbria in 2010 when 12 people were killed by a gunman who had a car and was driving around shooting at people in different locations.

Here's the wiki page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings No children were killed and the youngest victim was 20 years old. Most of the victims were relatively elderly.

That wasn't in Scotland, either. (Close, but no cigar.) I don't think there has been a single incident in Scotland after 1996. But I won't press that point. Even considering Britain as a whole, Derrick Bird is the lot.
There was Monkseaton in 1989 where a man with mental health issues got his fathers legally held shot gun and shot 15 people, but only one died.

Quote:
(I seem to recall an incident somewhere further south in England where some innocent teenagers were caught in the crossfire of some gangland shooting, but they weren't deliberately targeted.)
I think you are referring to the killing of Charlene Ellis and Letisha Shakespeare in Birmingham in 2003. The best known was Rhys Jones in Liverpool in 2007.
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:14 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There was an accidental fatal shooting by one youth of another whilst hunting rabbits, in 2001 in Dunbar. A youth was shot and injured in an attack at a traveller site in Glasgow in 2003. That is it as far as I can find.
I carefully said "in school" rather than "school children", and you have, I think, backed this up.
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:20 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That you have to resort to posts like that, rather than use metrics to prove me wrong, shows you have run out of arguments.
Why should he have to use metrics to prove it? Everyone who lives here knows it already!
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:22 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
In my country we had 16 children gunned down in a school. In 1996. We enacted legislation that seriously curtailed the use of guns, and we have had no more children gunned down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:27 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Well it is objectively and by almost any metric the greatest country in the history of the world.

The jealousy absolutely drips from your posts no matter how hard you try to cover it up. And it has for years now.
"Objectively"?! Really?! What metrics are you using?

The US have: Massive, almost crushing, student debts. A health care system leaving poor people to fend for themselves. A prison rate pushing 1% of the total population. Rampant racism and inequality. An unchecked opioid crisis. And last but not least mass shootings almost every day.

I'm so, so, so happy not to live in the US.
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:31 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Why should he have to use metrics to prove it? Everyone who lives here knows it already!
Everyone, hey?
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:55 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I carefully said "in school" rather than "school children", and you have, I think, backed this up.
It was the "in school" comment that made me go and check, as I did not think there had been any youth shootings. The two I found I did not know about.
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Old 10th November 2017, 03:21 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post

The reason that we like our Constitution so much is that it makes it very difficult for our government to take away our freedoms.
Wow. With all that slavery, segregation, Jim Crow laws, 2% of the population incarcerated and enslaved, executions, and a militarised police force, it seems your constitution doesn't do a very good job at stopping the government from taking your freedoms. Specially if you are neither rich nor white.
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Old 10th November 2017, 03:24 AM   #224
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The main freedom affected by the failure of gun control is the right to life.
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Old 10th November 2017, 03:25 AM   #225
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Does gun control have to be a constitutional issue?

Does the second amendment place restrictions on the federal government, or on all government? Could individual states just throw their hands up and say "You know what? we've had it, no more guns."?

(I'm not saying there aren't huge problems with a state-by-state approach...I'm just thinking out loud)
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Old 10th November 2017, 03:29 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
Wow. With all that slavery, segregation, Jim Crow laws, 2% of the population incarcerated and enslaved, executions, and a militarised police force, it seems your constitution doesn't do a very good job at stopping the government from taking your freedoms. Specially if you are neither rich nor white.
Not just that when you plot the "progression" of rights in stable democratic countries what do you find? That the USA has changed just like those other countries that don't have the same type of constitution. It's as if the constitution isn't the thing that determines what can, does and has changed over the decades.

It's almost enough to make one think that the USA constitution is being reinterpreted all the time as society and the culture changes.
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Old 10th November 2017, 03:53 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not just that when you plot the "progression" of rights in stable democratic countries what do you find? That the USA has changed just like those other countries that don't have the same type of constitution. It's as if the constitution isn't the thing that determines what can, does and has changed over the decades.

It's almost enough to make one think that the USA constitution is being reinterpreted all the time as society and the culture changes.
Yet in many respects, the USA has been or is signficantly behind the progression of other developed democracies, in just about all the issues I raised above.

It seems that in many respects, the USA actually enjoying less freedom than comparative countries in spite of their constitution and in spite of their foundation myth that the country was based on all men being equal and free to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.

Its almost as if pointing to an ancient scrap of paper and inanely declaring how free you are doesn't actually make you free.
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Old 10th November 2017, 04:34 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Does gun control have to be a constitutional issue?
No, but unless we repeal the 2nd amendment we are stuck with it.

Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Does the second amendment place restrictions on the federal government, or on all government?
Originally the Bill of Rights only applied to the Federal government but since the 14th amendment, portions have been ruled to apply to the states as well.

Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Could individual states just throw their hands up and say "You know what? we've had it, no more guns."?
No, the 2nd has been ruled by the courts to be applicable to the states so a complete ban is not allowed. On top of that some state constitutions prevent those states from completely banning private gun ownership.

However the states do have quite a bit of regulatory control. As an example Massachusetts has some of the toughest gun control laws in the US. We also have one of the lowest rates of death by gun in the US (#2 in 2013, 1/3rd the national average) and very few mass shootings in our history (2 dead in 1992 & 7 dead in 2000).
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Old 10th November 2017, 06:43 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
The US still leads in immigration, and its not even close.

Apparently a lot of people relish the chance at getting shot.
Agree. It is very safe country. Compared to Afghanistan or Iraq.
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Old 10th November 2017, 07:00 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
No, I stand by this. Words on a bit of paper is all that they are. Words written a couple of hundred years ago. That doesn't make them right, or a reasonable basis for running a country in a world that has changed out of all recognition compared to how it was when they were written. It's pure magical thinking to invest these words or the people who wrote them with a special mystical significance.
Who said anything about right or reasonable? My point is that they are the legal reference for all laws in the land, so they're more than just words on paper.

Quote:
I accept that you feel gun ownership is one of the "rights and principles" that are worth sacrificing children's lives for though.
Wow, you accept something that I never said or implied. Bugger me for trying to have a conversation with you.
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Old 10th November 2017, 07:03 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Agree. It is very safe country. Compared to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Exactly. Nobody is saying that America is the worst country in the world. Even the life of the disadvantaged poor in America is better than normal life in some other places. Yay! Also, for people who are already part of the privileged elite, America with its marked inequality offers the possibility of becoming even more privileged. America can be a fabulous place if you're already well off and can secure a good job. And you don't mind the poverty and the racism and the lack of healthcare that only affect other people of course.

But I'd like to see some of these statistics about immigration. How do you make a comparative assessment? Immigrants as a percentage of existing residents? Immigrants per square mile?
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Old 10th November 2017, 07:10 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Who said anything about right or reasonable? My point is that they are the legal reference for all laws in the land, so they're more than just words on paper.

They are words on paper that can be changed if they aren't fit for purpose in present-day society. If they aren't "right or reasonable" then that is exactly what should happen.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Wow, you accept something that I never said or implied. Bugger me for trying to have a conversation with you.

You said, "we already make compromises that put children in danger in order to protect other rights and principles, so this isn't new." I think that very much implies exactly that. You're content to put children in danger to protect the right and principle of owning a gun.
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Old 10th November 2017, 07:11 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by dann View Post

Yes, that is a link to the 1996 incident I was referring to. What is your point?
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Old 10th November 2017, 07:24 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
They are words on paper that can be changed if they aren't fit for purpose in present-day society.
Again, the point is that they're more than words on paper. A cheque is a bunch of words on paper but banks will honour them. A contract is just words on paper and yet it has legal standing, etc. So saying that they are just words on a piece of paper implies that it's trivial to ignore them. It is not.

Quote:
If they aren't "right or reasonable" then that is exactly what should happen.
I didn't say they weren't, either. <snip>

Quote:
You said, "we already make compromises that put children in danger in order to protect other rights and principles, so this isn't new." I think that very much implies exactly that.
<snip> Once again, the point is that in all things we compromise between principles. We accept, for instance, that accidents happen and that we can't bubble-wrap everyone to make them 100% accident proof. That doesn't mean you don't try to find solutions to minimise accidents, but there's a point of diminishing returns.

Quote:
You're content to put children in danger to protect the right and principle of owning a gun.
<snip>

Edited by TubbaBlubba:  Edited for rule 12 breaches
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Old 10th November 2017, 07:39 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
We accept, for instance, that accidents happen and that we can't bubble-wrap everyone to make them 100% accident proof. That doesn't mean you don't try to find solutions to minimise accidents, but there's a point of diminishing returns.

This seems to be the only thing in this post worth a reply.

It is exactly what those of us who have been refuting the constant, tendentious arguments about road accidents and swimming pools have been saying. We all try to find solutions to minimise accidents and adverse events relating to swimming pools, car accidents and all sorts of things. There is indeed a law of diminishing returns if you're not going to eliminate cars or swimming pools or guns entirely, but it is possible to get the numbers down pretty low.

The point many of us are trying to get across here is that experience in other countries shows that it is possible to approach gun-related deaths in the same way as swimming pools and car safety. It's just that America, almost alone in the developed world, doesn't see the possibility of significantly reducing gun-related deaths (of children and adults) as something worth having if it might restrict their precious freedom to run around packing heat.
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Old 10th November 2017, 07:43 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This seems to be the only thing in this post worth a reply.
Well of course, now that you've strawmanned everything I said, you'd rather ignore my response to that so you don't need to apologise for it.

Quote:
It is exactly what those of us who have been refuting the constant, tendentious arguments about road accidents and swimming pools have been saying. We all try to find solutions to minimise accidents and adverse events relating to swimming pools, car accidents and all sorts of things. There is indeed a law of diminishing returns if you're not going to eliminate cars or swimming pools or guns entirely, but it is possible to get the numbers down pretty low.
So it seems that, strawmen aside, you actually agree with me. Perhaps you sought to disagree on something, I don't know.
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:11 AM   #237
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I don't agree with you if you are trying to say that America has tried to find solutions to minimise gun deaths to the point where these deaths are so rare that they're hitting the law of diminishing returns. This is self-evidently not the case.
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:14 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't agree with you if you are trying to say that America has tried to find solutions to minimise gun deaths to the point where these deaths are so rare that they're hitting the law of diminishing returns. This is self-evidently not the case.
You may be falling into the trap of assuming that your interlocutor is actually saying anything at all. From the outside, it appears to be a content-free nit-pick and point-scoring exercise.
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:27 AM   #239
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You may well be right.
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:31 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't agree with you if you are trying to say that America has tried to find solutions to minimise gun deaths to the point where these deaths are so rare that they're hitting the law of diminishing returns. This is self-evidently not the case.
Well perhaps if you stopped trying to add content to my post to disagree with we'd have been done with this already.

My point was simple but I'll reiterate again: while "content" might not be the right word, we do expect that human activity will lead to accidents and death. We try to minimise it, but that some people might be unwilling to go beyond a certain point in terms of measures doesn't mean they are in favour of having these accidents of deaths happen. It's simply a mischaracterisation in order to oversell a point.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You may be falling into the trap of assuming that your interlocutor is actually saying anything at all. From the outside, it appears to be a content-free nit-pick and point-scoring exercise.
I find it ironic that you say this, since your post has no purpose but to be an attack on me.

But I suppose it's much more satisfying to find people to disagree with in order to make oneself feel morally superior than to expend any sort of energy in trying to understand each other and having an actual discussion about a complex issue.
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