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Tags cheetahs , vultures

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Old 13th November 2017, 02:09 AM   #41
Captain_Swoop
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Me too. Tasted a little like chicken. Which, for those of you who haven't had chicken, tastes a little like human flesh...
Which has a similar taste to crocodile.
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Old 13th November 2017, 02:11 AM   #42
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I would think a Cheetah would be worried about getting injured and avoid tackling anything that had sharp talons and a razor like beak.
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Old 13th November 2017, 03:26 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I hope someone knows about savanna wildlife.

You often, in TV features about wildlife see predators having to ward off scavengers from their catch. Generally, they just growl and slash at them.

Today I saw a feature about a cheetah mother struggling to feed a litter of six (!) cubs. While they were eating she chased away the gathering vultures.

I started to wonder why she didn't kill a few of them. Pretty free food as they walked (well, lurched) right up close. A vulture looks big, but it it only weighs some three kg. So the 15 times heavier cheetah should have no trouble killing it, even if it has a sharp beak.

Do vultures taste very bad or something?

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Carnivores generally eat herbivores, but can eat omnivores, and occasionally other carnivores. May former be the preferance later compusion, if herbivores are scrace or not available.
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Old 14th November 2017, 02:45 AM   #44
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Many time, I see, dogs leave some food for crows, who surround him on looking a dog taking food and raise much voice. I don't feel, that was just surplus food to dogs. Probably, there is a symbiosis relation or some mutual understanding in between species other than herbivores. Either for cleaning the remains of foods, to avoid diseases or probably next time others Carnivores may also arrange some food for them in scarcity.
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Old 14th November 2017, 02:52 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I would think a Cheetah would be worried about getting injured and avoid tackling anything that had sharp talons and a razor like beak.
Correct. And they're knackered........absolutely cream crackered...........after a chase and kill. They'll often sit there for 10 minutes getting their breath back before starting to feed, or carrying it off for their youngsters, if it's small. If they've got a kill, there is no incentive to get another one anyway. I have seen a leopard kill a vulture, just because it was pissed off with it. It leapt up and plucked it out of the air with one paw, and didn't attempt to eat it.
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Old 14th November 2017, 02:56 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Varanid View Post
Often, the perspective on wildlife documentaries is misleading. The vultures were likely hanging out beyond the cheetah's reasonable reach...........
Nah. I've seen vultures pulling bits out of a carcass whilst a lion is gnawing at the other end.
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Old 14th November 2017, 04:02 AM   #47
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I think it comes down to this:

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
If they've got a kill, there is no incentive to get another one anyway.
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Old 14th November 2017, 05:22 AM   #48
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I recall seeing a male lion kill the alpha female hyena near a kill on some TV show. Caught her and broke her back. I don't think the lions ate the hyena, though.

There had basically been a constant war between the pack of hyenas and the pride of lions over the territory and the kills, and the male lion decided to end it permanently.

IIRC, you could see the conflict between the groups escalating as time went on and the show was following the conflict.

Searching Youtube yields a lot of lions killing, and sometimes eating, hyenas.
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Old 14th November 2017, 05:30 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
........There had basically been a constant war between the pack of hyenas and the pride of lions over the territory and the kills, and the male lion decided to end it permanently.........
He'd have been very disappointed, then. His action would have had no impact on the survival of that hyaena clan, and nor would it have changed their behaviour. Hyaenas are very good at avoiding contact with lions unless they want it. My daughter actually tracked hyaenas on the Maasai Mara for 4 months, plotting their whereabouts in relation to that of lions. Hyaenas are often the apex predators in areas where lions have been killed off, such as Liuwa in Zambia.
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Old 14th November 2017, 06:15 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
A cheetah is the fastest land animal on the planet. I'm sure it can jump a vulture.
Vultures can fly. That kind of negates the land speed issue.
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:30 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Vultures can fly. That kind of negates the land speed issue.
If they can get into the air fast enough. The vulture is a glider and is not that nimble on the ground.

Well, lots of good answers. My own guess is that predators are conservative. Most have a quite tight energy budget and can't afford too many fruitless hunts. So they much prefer to hunt prey they know.

They are also very cautious, sometimes bordering on cowardly, because a wounded predator can't hunt, so it risks starvation before it can recover. So it is probably not in its programming to hunt scavengers.

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Old 14th November 2017, 07:35 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Many time, I see, dogs leave some food for crows, who surround him on looking a dog taking food and raise much voice. I don't feel, that was just surplus food to dogs. Probably, there is a symbiosis relation or some mutual understanding in between species other than herbivores. Either for cleaning the remains of foods, to avoid diseases or probably next time others Carnivores may also arrange some food for them in scarcity.
I don't think that is very probable. More likely, the dog feels unsafe surrounded by noisy crows, which are not only stressing it, but also may alert other dogs to the food.

There is a species level tendency for many birds (e.g. seagulls) to alert others of a source of food, but that is far from unselfish: The species gain from it and the individual gains safety in the numbers.

Hans
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:53 AM   #53
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I think the main reason why predators don't just try and kill and eat the vultures, may be very simple: when there are vultures around close enough for the predator to have any chance of catching them, there tends ALSO to be a carcass of some animal that they are trying to eat.

If you have a choice between eating the carcass (that won't run, or fight back), it makes little sense to expend any more energy chasing a bird (and thus leaving the carcass to the other birds), for the uncertain reward of a smaller meal, instead of the larger, safer meal that is right in front of you.
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:04 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Swordfishtrombone View Post
I think the main reason why predators don't just try and kill and eat the vultures, may be very simple: when there are vultures around close enough for the predator to have any chance of catching them, there tends ALSO to be a carcass of some animal that they are trying to eat.

If you have a choice between eating the carcass (that won't run, or fight back), it makes little sense to expend any more energy chasing a bird (and thus leaving the carcass to the other birds), for the uncertain reward of a smaller meal, instead of the larger, safer meal that is right in front of you.
I was referring to a particular situation where a female cheetah was faced with trying to rear a litter of six (twice the normal number). In that situation, every scrap of food would have counted. However, I think you are otherwise right, and it is probably not possible for it to diverge from its standard behavior.

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Old 14th November 2017, 08:05 AM   #55
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This set me thinking about why vultures only scavenge, instead of hunting. I mean who/what wouldn't prefer fresh food to stale spoilt yucky stuff?

The first article I clicked when I googled this (this one) does explain that, and goes on to say : "A vultureís digestive tract can easily handle bubonic plague, rabies, distemper, anthrax, and most all other evil, little, biological nasties that threaten other forms of life on Earth. Itís all good to them. How can they do this? Itís complex. But basically, their digestive tract has two tools it uses: One is a very low Ph in their digestive juices. ..."

So with all of this poisonous crap (poisonous to other animals, including, I suppose, cheetahs) sitting inside vultures, vultures would probably be the equivalent of what poisonous plants are to herbivores. Evolution has, I expect, taught herbivores to leave poisonous plants alone ; and similarly, I guess, evolution will have taught cheetahs to not eat vultures.

All of this is just my conjecture, without a shred of actual evidence backing this conjecture : but it seems to make sense.
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:07 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
This set me thinking about why vultures only scavenge, instead of hunting. I mean who/what wouldn't prefer fresh food to stale spoilt yucky stuff?

The first article I clicked when I googled this (this one) does explain that, and goes on to say : "A vultureís digestive tract can easily handle bubonic plague, rabies, distemper, anthrax, and most all other evil, little, biological nasties that threaten other forms of life on Earth. Itís all good to them. How can they do this? Itís complex. But basically, their digestive tract has two tools it uses: One is a very low Ph in their digestive juices. ..."

So with all of this poisonous crap (poisonous to other animals, including, I suppose, cheetahs) sitting inside vultures, vultures would probably be the equivalent of what poisonous plants are to herbivores. Evolution has, I expect, taught herbivores to leave poisonous plants alone ; and similarly, I guess, evolution will have taught cheetahs to not eat vultures.

All of this is just my conjecture, without a shred of actual evidence backing this conjecture : but it seems to make sense.
Yes, I agree. Of course, muscles and such would probably not be affected, but still, they could very well be on the instinctive "don't eat" list.

Hans
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:09 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
I haven't ever seen scavengers actually attacked, just chased, whether vultures, hyenas or whatever (and lions are much bigger than hyenas.)

Perhaps the instinct is to protect the kill they have, and not line up more.

A bit of a chase would also allow the other scavengers to get in and munch.
An elk in the paw is worth 2 vultures in the bush?

As to whether scavengers are tasty. Pigs are pretty much scavengers.
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:29 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
An elk in the paw is worth 2 vultures in the bush?

As to whether scavengers are tasty. Pigs are pretty much scavengers.
If they get the chance, yes. However, I doubt that a specific diet of carcasses would for anything good for the taste of ham.

Hans
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:45 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
A cheetah is the fastest land animal on the planet. I'm sure it can jump a vulture. They are rather slow when on the ground.

Hans
I think it takes a while for a cheetah to stand, start running, and get up to speed. When they're already afoot, they can run down anything on earth, but they're already loping along then. A vulture may be slow on the ground, but they get aloft with reasonable speed, and outrunning something is quite different from dodging it.

I'm guessing that, as others have noted, the amount of energy spent on trying to catch a vulture is simply not worth the reward, when a carcass is nearby, and it would not surprise me a bit to find that vultures are nasty tasting too.

As for some of those other critters, although penguin may not be choice, it certainly can be eaten, as the members of the Shackleton expedition, among others, found to their great benefit.

Although not exclusively scavengers, hyenas do a lot of scavenging, and seem to be edible, at least to some other animals, including people. I don't know how hyena tastes, but if one dies, things come and eat it up.

Hyenas have yummy eyeballs. It took a couple more days for the rest to be gobbled up.

tasty hyena.jpg
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:56 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Varanid View Post
Often, the perspective on wildlife documentaries is misleading. The vultures were likely hanging out beyond the cheetah's reasonable reach.

I don't understand optics/photography well, but I think that if you use a really long zoom lens, you lose depth of field.
Yes, sort of. There's a difference between depth of field (which is the area in some degree of focus) and perspective. A long lens reduces depth of field, but more importantly it compresses perspective, making distant objects appear closer.

If you take a wide angle picture, objects close up look much bigger than those far away, and perspective is exaggerated. Think of the radical example of silly pictures of dogs, in which a very wide lens is brought very close to the nose, producing a funny picture of a dog with an enormous nose and a tiny body.

If you use a telephoto lens, you must, of course, be further away to fill the frame with the same thing that filled the frame in a wide shot. If you took a wide shot from the same distance and then cropped it, it would be the same as a telephoto shot, but that's not what we do, since definition is lost. We go directly to the telephoto, and that view will show foreground and background at much closer to the same size, decreasing the effect of perspective, and seeming to compress distance.

A "normal" lens (about 50 mm. on a full frame or 35 mm. camera, 35 on DX) will provide a perspective that is more or less what you see with your eye, and thus makes it easier to estimate relative distances. Very wide or very long lenses will make it very difficult to judge distance.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:37 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
My own guess is that predators are conservative.
Grazers have a liberal bias.
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:44 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Grazers have a liberal bias.
Well in a way, that is true. A herbivore can eat even if wounded. It can afford to run risks. Which are the most feared animals in the savanna? Water buffaloes and rhinos.

Hans
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:47 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
.......... Which are the most feared animals in the savanna? Water buffaloes and rhinos.......
Oooh............now we're into reading animals' minds. Dangerous territory. (Besides, water buffaloes don't live on the savannah, or in Africa at all. But you knew that... )
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:23 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Madalch View Post
Bear varies depending on what it's been eating. If it's been eating berries, it's delicious. If it's been spending the last week gnawing on the rotting carcass of an elk, it tastes like rotting carcass.....
Well known that all meats are this way...except maybe not so well known to today's youth raised on KFC and McDoubles.

It is astonishing to me how little this fast food nation remembers about real food.

I would maybe get it if the crap actually tasted good or was more efficient to produce. It's neither, so we are stuck with paying more for lower quality crap. arrrg
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:35 PM   #65
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Aren't pigs scavengers? They're certainly omnivores, and pigs taste pretty damn good (if you're into that kind of thing, which I am)
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:43 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Oooh............now we're into reading animals' minds. Dangerous territory. (Besides, water buffaloes don't live on the savannah, or in Africa at all. But you knew that... )
AH, what are those buffaloes then?

Hans
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:00 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
AH, what are those buffaloes then?

Hans
Pretty sure you meant cape buffaloes (African), not water buffaloes (Asian). Although there are savannas, buffalo, and rhino all in asia, They're not the kind of savanna likely to have buffalo and rhino cavorting together. That only happens in Africa.
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:10 PM   #68
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Yep, Cape Buffaloes.

Unfortunately, with the virtual extinction of rhinos in the wild, the places you might see buffalo and rhinos together you could probably count on the fingers of one hand.
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:13 PM   #69
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Of course the idea that there is some dietary reason why carnivores eat herbivores is hardly scientific. As it happens, herbivores tend to be easier to catch owing to the way they go about in the world, and carnivores, as a general rule, are likely to be harder to catch, owing to the way they, in turn, go about in the world. And among the land mammals, the way you feed and go about in the world may have a significant effect on how tough and gristly you are. But a seal will eat a penguin (which eats krill), and a sharp shinned hawk will eat a robin or a flycatcher or anything else it can swoop down on, and a mongoose will eat a snake that eats mice, and so on and so forth. Life is pretty complicated when you bother to think.

Or, as archy the cockroach said when he discoursed on the saga of the robin and the worm that gave rise to its beautiful song, "there are more things twixt the vermiform appendix and nirvana than are dreamt of in thy philosophy...."
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:46 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Of course the idea that there is some dietary reason why carnivores eat herbivores is hardly scientific. As it happens, herbivores tend to be easier to catch owing to the way they go about in the world, and carnivores, as a general rule, are likely to be harder to catch, ."
It can be checked by human's preferences since "easier or harder to catch" do not apply on them. Whether taste differences are there?
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:08 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Aren't pigs scavengers? They're certainly omnivores, and pigs taste pretty damn good (if you're into that kind of thing, which I am)
Sure, but most of the pigs we eat are slopped with feed that doesn't include any component of rotting meat (or any meat at all, really), and even in the wild where pigs roam free they're going to end up eating mostly vegetable matter because it's going to be easily accessible.
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:50 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
It can be checked by human's preferences since "easier or harder to catch" do not apply on them. Whether taste differences are there?
Why? Humans are only a small part of the world's population of animals, and animals vary for many reasons. True, the difficulty of catching was probably not a sufficient reason to cite. In the world of land mammals, carnivores tend to be less plentiful and their dietary needs make them difficult livestock. Herbivores tend to be easier to hunt, herd, and domesticate, and at least some hunting animals tend to be pretty scrawny. But that does not change the fact that many animals eat carnivores. And that includes mankind in many places, especially not on land. Many of the fish we eat are carnivorous or omnivorous, as are seals, sea turtles and whales. People in many parts of the world eat dogs.
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Old 15th November 2017, 12:01 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Why? Humans are only a small part of the world's population of animals, and animals vary for many reasons. True, the difficulty of catching was probably not a sufficient reason to cite. In the world of land mammals, carnivores tend to be less plentiful and their dietary needs make them difficult livestock. Herbivores tend to be easier to hunt, herd, and domesticate, and at least some hunting animals tend to be pretty scrawny. But that does not change the fact that many animals eat carnivores. And that includes mankind in many places, especially not on land. Many of the fish we eat are carnivorous or omnivorous, as are seals, sea turtles and whales. People in many parts of the world eat dogs.
Is there any reason of carnivores tend to be less plentiful? Whether exitiction or logevity of survival, anyway related to carnivorous, omnivorous or Herbivores?
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Old 15th November 2017, 12:25 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Is there any reason of carnivores tend to be less plentiful? Whether exitiction or logevity of survival, anyway related to carnivorous, omnivorous or Herbivores?
Homeopathy
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Old 15th November 2017, 12:44 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
A Bantam Cock can

It was a grand upstanding bantam cock,
So brisk and stiff and spry,
With springy step and jaunty plume
And a purposeful look in his eye,
In his little black blinking eye, he had.

I took him to the coop and introduced him
To my seventeen wide-eyed hens.
He tupped and he tupped as a hero tups
And he bowed from the waist to them all, and then
He upped and he tupped 'em all again, he did.

And then upon the peace of me ducks and me geese
He rudely did intrude.
With glazed eyes and open mouths
They bore it all with fortitude
And a little bit of gratitude, they did.

He jumped my giggling guinea fowl
And forced his attentions upon
My twenty hysterical turkeys and
A visiting migrant swan.
But the bantam thundered on, he did.

He ravished my fan-tailed pigeons and
Me lily-white columbines,
And while I was locking up the budgerigar
He jumped my parrot from behind;
She was sitting on me shoulder at the time.

And all of a sudden with a gasp and a gulp
He clapped his hands to his head,
Fell flat on his back with his toes in the air.
My bantam cock lay dead
And the vultures circled overhead, they did.

What a champion brute; what a noble cock;
What a way to live and to die.
I was digging him a grave to save his bones
From the hungry buzzards in the sky
When the bantam opened up a sly little eye.

He gave me a grin and a terrible wink,
The way that rapists do.
He said, "You see them big daft buggers up there?
They'll be down in a minute or two;
They'll be down in a minute or two".
Jake Thackray for those curious with the music;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hQhi4oyH6k

Last edited by Planigale; 15th November 2017 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 15th November 2017, 12:57 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Is there any reason of carnivores tend to be less plentiful? Whether exitiction or logevity of survival, anyway related to carnivorous, omnivorous or Herbivores?
For the same reason there are more blades of grass than sheep in the field.
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Old 15th November 2017, 02:21 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Homeopathy
Naturality.
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Old 15th November 2017, 02:22 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
For the same reason there are more blades of grass than sheep in the field.
Both these are matching.
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Old 15th November 2017, 09:08 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Why? Humans are only a small part of the world's population of animals,
Not that small a part. By number we're certainly outnumbered by many insect species, but by mass we about equal to the ants. I suspect that of large animals only our livestock species outweigh us in biomass, if any do at all.

For instance there are about 1.4 billion cattle in the world and they have an average weight of 750kg, so that gives us a total mass of about 1 trillion kg. Humans on the other hand weigh maybe around 500 billion kg total.

Oh wow, googling a bit I actually found that there's an XKCD for this, though it only includes land mammals, still as I suspected humans make up a pretty large proportion, and wild mammals are almost insignifcant:

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Old 15th November 2017, 09:11 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Is there any reason of carnivores tend to be less plentiful? Whether exitiction or logevity of survival, anyway related to carnivorous, omnivorous or Herbivores?
Thermodynamics.
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