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Tags immortality , logic

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Old 11th November 2017, 06:53 PM   #1
Kumar
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Lightbulb Basis of Immortality?

Hello,
Greetings!

Just got the initiation to check it.

What can be the basis of our Immortality directly or indirectly? Can it be:-

At current/gross level (Observable)

1. Our Clones

2. Our Children

3. Our physical remains after death--bones, DNA etc.

4. Our work done(good & bad)

5. Or Otherwise?

At Prime Level (non-observable)

1. Our prime energy form

2. Our pure/impure soul or ghosts

3. Our reincarnations

4. Or otherwise?

You may discuss these, logically or scientifically.

Best wishes.
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Old 11th November 2017, 07:03 PM   #2
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Self replicating robots on interstellar journeys mining the void for precious atoms to fuse into their ever-expanding metal bodies.
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Old 11th November 2017, 07:13 PM   #3
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We are not immortal.

Define "gross" since you are not using the word correctly. Define "prime" since it does not make sense the way you are using it.
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Old 11th November 2017, 07:34 PM   #4
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I don't even know what is meant by "the basis of our immortality," since it implies that "our immortality" is something we know is real, and agree upon. That, you might recall from your extensive research into the obvious, might be called "begging the question."

I would suggest that for immortality to have any meaning, something of the person involved must be recognized or recognizable. The socalled "gross level" categories include various cultural instances in which one might be considered to gain a measure of immortality, or at least an open-ended delay of final mortality. Our work done, our legacy. Even so, true immortality is rare and never assured. Moses, Socrates, Shakespeare, Mozart, may be close, but we cannot be sure that their individuality will endure forever. Even the anonymous makers of prehistoric henges and cairns might be said to have some immortality, in that their work remains, even though their names are lost. Something of their legacy has endured for hundreds, even thousands of years, but will it for millions?

In the case of the non observable categories, by the very virtue of their being non-observable, the issue of immortality is meaningless. I would hold with the basic pragmatic principle, that if a difference is real it must make some conceivable difference. Sure, conservation of matter makes everything immortal in a sense, but if you can't sort it out, it's not immortality of the individual. If ghosts existed they'd be observable. If reincarnation existed, it would make for immortality only if there were some knowable link between incarnations. If not, it would be no more than an immaterial version of recycling atoms. Since it is not known to exist, nor reliably observed to exist, such speculation is only a mental exercise anyway.
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Old 11th November 2017, 08:00 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Self replicating robots on interstellar journeys mining the void for precious atoms to fuse into their ever-expanding metal bodies.
Welcome. Will you please explain it more in simple language?
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Old 11th November 2017, 08:03 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
We are not immortal.

Define "gross" since you are not using the word correctly. Define "prime" since it does not make sense the way you are using it.
Prime: start of us, should be energy state. Gross: Our today live state.
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Old 11th November 2017, 08:05 PM   #7
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That -is- simple language

Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Welcome. Will you please explain it more in simple language?
Guess it's still not your culture, Mahakumar.
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Old 11th November 2017, 08:22 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Self replicating robots on interstellar journeys mining the void for precious atoms to fuse into their ever-expanding metal bodies.
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Welcome. Will you please explain it more in simple language?
OK.

Man-made machines that can make copies of themselves travelling between the stars using whatever stuff they can find to add to their bodies and in that way grow and multiply forever.
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Old 11th November 2017, 08:23 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I don't even know what is meant by "the basis of our immortality," since it implies that "our immortality" is something we know is real, and agree upon. That, you might recall from your extensive research into the obvious, might be called "begging the question."

I would suggest that for immortality to have any meaning, something of the person involved must be recognized or recognizable.
Welcome & thanks.

Yes it must be recognizable, logically or scientifically and directly or indirectly.

Quote:
The socalled "gross level" categories include various cultural instances in which one might be considered to gain a measure of immortality, or at least an open-ended delay of final mortality. Our work done, our legacy. Even so, true immortality is rare and never assured. Moses, Socrates, Shakespeare, Mozart, may be close, but we cannot be sure that their individuality will endure forever. Even the anonymous makers of prehistoric henges and cairns might be said to have some immortality, in that their work remains, even though their names are lost. Something of their legacy has endured for hundreds, even thousands of years, but will it for millions?
Yes, that may not be immortal but long terms unless some godlike work can be anticipated. What about clones & dead body remains? I think we got these intact even after many million years.

Quote:
In the case of the non observable categories, by the very virtue of their being non-observable, the issue of immortality is meaningless. I would hold with the basic pragmatic principle, that if a difference is real it must make some conceivable difference. Sure, conservation of matter makes everything immortal in a sense, but if you can't sort it out, it's not immortality of the individual. If ghosts existed they'd be observable. If reincarnation existed, it would make for immortality only if there were some knowable link between incarnations. If not, it would be no more than an immaterial version of recycling atoms. Since it is not known to exist, nor reliably observed to exist, such speculation is only a mental exercise anyway.
Yes quite logical. True basis of all these will be needed to know in science. Logically, our prime energy form should be immortal/eternal. But how it can hold information of our individuality, will be a question mark. Soul/ghosts-- can it be some form of emitted or reflected spectrum of EMRs at the time of death? Reincarnation: can it be, emitted or reflective spectrum(say soul), merged in any other form of body and make energy basis to that? I think, such spectrum remain present in environment/universe eternally. ?
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Old 11th November 2017, 08:25 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Prime: start of us, should be energy state. Gross: Our today live state.
Define "energy state". Define "our today live state".
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Old 11th November 2017, 09:04 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Define "energy state". Define "our today live state".
Energy state: Big bang state. Our today live state: you, me and other live human beings.
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Last edited by Kumar; 11th November 2017 at 09:05 PM. Reason: add
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Old 11th November 2017, 09:07 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Hello,
Greetings!

Just got the initiation to check it.

What can be the basis of our Immortality directly or indirectly? Can it be:-

At current/gross level (Observable)

1. Our Clones

2. Our Children

3. Our physical remains after death--bones, DNA etc.

4. Our work done(good & bad)

5. Or Otherwise?

At Prime Level (non-observable)

1. Our prime energy form

2. Our pure/impure soul or ghosts

3. Our reincarnations

4. Or otherwise?

You may discuss these, logically or scientifically.

Best wishes.
None in the reality of the physical world wherein you have the ability to know/experience same.

Indirect immortality is pointless for an individual. And to clarify, a clone of you will not have the same experiences as you, so that does not count either. The clone is only biologically you and only at the time it is first produced.

You really need to think this stuff out before posting so you do not waste our time in having to explain how and why you were wrong - especially since you will normally try to argue against the reality we explain to you.
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Old 11th November 2017, 09:30 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
None in the reality of the physical world wherein you have the ability to know/experience same.

Indirect immortality is pointless for an individual. And to clarify, a clone of you will not have the same experiences as you, so that does not count either. The clone is only biologically you and only at the time it is first produced.
Can be in some sense, Can not be in other sense. Whether Immortality depend upon only your memory not on your body & instincts? Whether clones do not have Instincts? Why clone can't be produced from clones?
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Old 11th November 2017, 10:14 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Energy state: Big bang state. Our today live state: you, me and other live human beings.
Define "Big bang state".
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:03 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Welcome & thanks.

Yes it must be recognizable, logically or scientifically and directly or indirectly.



Yes, that may not be immortal but long terms unless some godlike work can be anticipated. What about clones & dead body remains? I think we got these intact even after many million years.
I don't see why one would anticipate "godlike work." Clones are physical copies but do not possess the experience of the individual. I have a sheet of stamps. Every stamp is like every other, but this stamp is not that stamp. A thing is what it is, not what it is like. And no, we do not get dead body remains intact after many million years. There are fossils, but we cannot depend on them, and they are usually not the remains of an individual but the deposited minerals which have replaced them. And in any case, though that preservation is long indeed, it is not guaranteed that it will be forever.
Quote:



Yes quite logical. True basis of all these will be needed to know in science. Logically, our prime energy form should be immortal/eternal. But how it can hold information of our individuality, will be a question mark. Soul/ghosts-- can it be some form of emitted or reflected spectrum of EMRs at the time of death? Reincarnation: can it be, emitted or reflective spectrum(say soul), merged in any other form of body and make energy basis to that? I think, such spectrum remain present in environment/universe eternally. ?
Think what you will, but there's no evidence for it, and even if there were there's no evidence that either the preservation of energy or the recycling of souls through reincarnation preserves any aspect of individuality in a way that can be identified or that can have any useful meaning.

Imagine that a body rots and turns to dust, and other chemicals, scattered to the wind. Imagine that a super-duper-unreal but imaginable scientist sifts through the dust and using some super-duper-unknown but imaginable technical gee-whiz science identifes the particles, and correlates his findings to some super-duper-never was and never will be but imaginable database. Ah yes, this atom came from Kumar. This molecule was part of Kumar. And over here, look, this mote of dust came from Kumar. After a crazily extended, uselessly long, but imaginable period he has found all or most of Kumar. He has a pile of dust and atoms and bits extracted from trees and rutabagas and the gullets of fish that ate the worms that ate the microbes that ate the remains of Kumar, and there it is, the pile. Has he, in any useful, identifiable or meaningful way, found who and what Kumar was? Has he made Kumar immortal? Or just gathered up a bunch of the world.
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:06 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Define "Big bang state".
Singularity.
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:12 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
1. Our prime energy form

2. Our pure/impure soul or ghosts

3. Our reincarnations
Scientifically, these don't exist. We only exist materially. When the brain dies there is nothing left.
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:25 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I don't see why one would anticipate "godlike work." Clones are physical copies but do not possess the experience of the individual. I have a sheet of stamps. Every stamp is like every other, but this stamp is not that stamp. A thing is what it is, not what it is like.
It is matter of big debate, whether an individual with acquired memory is only that Individual OR also without acquired memory? Btw, how long cloning can continue of same Individual?

Quote:
And no, we do not get dead body remains intact after many million years. There are fossils, but we cannot depend on them, and they are usually not the remains of an individual but the deposited minerals which have replaced them. And in any case, though that preservation is long indeed, it is not guaranteed that it will be forever. Think what you will, but there's no evidence for it, and even if there were there's no evidence that either the preservation of energy or the recycling of souls through reincarnation preserves any aspect of individuality in a way that can be identified or that can have any useful meaning.
I am not sure, if cloning is possible, whether DNA in dead remains can also make copy? Whatever record of fossils we estimate that can be man be based on our reach but may be much more in actual. Moreover, we should be able to preserve those remains for infinate time. Anyway, 50 million years may also be somewhat immortality logically/grossly.

Quote:
Imagine that a body rots and turns to dust, and other chemicals, scattered to the wind. Imagine that a super-duper-unreal but imaginable scientist sifts through the dust and using some super-duper-unknown but imaginable technical gee-whiz science identifes the particles, and correlates his findings to some super-duper-never was and never will be but imaginable database. Ah yes, this atom came from Kumar. This molecule was part of Kumar. And over here, look, this mote of dust came from Kumar. After a crazily extended, uselessly long, but imaginable period he has found all or most of Kumar. He has a pile of dust and atoms and bits extracted from trees and rutabagas and the gullets of fish that ate the worms that ate the microbes that ate the remains of Kumar, and there it is, the pile. Has he, in any useful, identifiable or meaningful way, found who and what Kumar was? Has he made Kumar immortal? Or just gathered up a bunch of the world.
Mine remains may be bit dynamic and may remain Immortal or much consistent. So not good example.

Otherwise, We may, under current sense, just need one DNA which may not be a live being. I can't say if our energy spectrum or soul can also be possible for it. May be in future. Colour/energy should be like spirit of substance.
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:31 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by barehl View Post
Scientifically, these don't exist. We only exist materially. When the brain dies there is nothing left.
Sorry, but it may be a reason to take or gift death to many in name of mercy killing, unuseful life even without wish of dying person. Somewhat murder in real sense. But believing, whole individual is just brain and brain can not be regained or revived--can be bit odd. Still, don't we take care of our relatives with memory loss or in coma or become mad? It can take more time for revival(just feeling logically). Moreover stem cell techniques are also there, nearby. Probably, natural enhancement/stimulation of out god/nature gifted stem cell mechanism may also come. At least we can make his clones & children by Test tube technique. So we should wait till death. Death is not a thing for which we may be entitled to gift.

Souls and ghosts: put a last minute big photo of a person, near to death and after death and display in your house prominently, you may get some impression of these, probably.Reincarnations: to be understand, what can be real logic behind it, our last live spectrum transfer, our work, our children, by our remains or otherwise.
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Last edited by Kumar; 11th November 2017 at 11:43 PM. Reason: add
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:34 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
We are not immortal.

Define "gross" since you are not using the word correctly. Define "prime" since it does not make sense the way you are using it.
Would you be immortal if you live in an infinitely old cyclical universe (i.e., big bang-big crunch-big bang...)
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:37 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Singularity.
Define "Singularity".
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:44 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
4. Or otherwise?

The individual atoms currently making up your body are probably the longest lived thing about you. About half your protons will still be around in 1.29x1034 years. But even they will decay eventually.

Of course, not one single atom in your body gives a damn whether you live or die. So, it's sort of a losing proposition in total.
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:48 PM   #23
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At the moment there is no scientific base for immortality.

Nothing is nature is immortal. Even bacteria, which long were thought to be functionally immortal, have by now been show to have finite life spans.
I suspect biological immortality is impossible without a radical re-engineering of our genetics.

Maybe, just maybe, we will eventually be able to copy our consciousness and memories onto a form of computer and achieve functional immortality that way, but whether we'd be able to cope with that is a different matter.
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Old 12th November 2017, 12:35 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Sorry, but it may be a reason to take or gift death to many in name of mercy killing, unuseful life even without wish of dying person. Somewhat murder in real sense. But believing, whole individual is just brain and brain can not be regained or revived--can be bit odd. Still, don't we take care of our relatives with memory loss or in coma or become mad? It can take more time for revival(just feeling logically). Moreover stem cell techniques are also there, nearby. Probably, natural enhancement/stimulation of out god/nature gifted stem cell mechanism may also come. At least we can make his clones & children by Test tube technique. So we should wait till death. Death is not a thing for which we may be entitled to gift.

Souls and ghosts: put a last minute big photo of a person, near to death and after death and display in your house prominently, you may get some impression of these, probably.Reincarnations: to be understand, what can be real logic behind it, our last live spectrum transfer, our work, our children, by our remains or otherwise.
I can't understand any point you are trying to make in response to my post. I think I was quite clear: ghosts, souls, or spirits don't exist and this can be proven. This has nothing at all to do with someone with brain damage or children. Your reply is gibberish.
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Old 12th November 2017, 12:37 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Maybe, just maybe, we will eventually be able to copy our consciousness and memories onto a form of computer and achieve functional immortality that way, but whether we'd be able to cope with that is a different matter.
No, that can be disproved as well. You can't copy your consciousness and memories to a computer.
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Old 12th November 2017, 12:38 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
The individual atoms currently making up your body are probably the longest lived thing about you. About half your protons will still be around in 1.29x1034 years. But even they will decay eventually.
Based on what? Proton decay has never been detected. It's one of the grand failures of scientific theory along with the search for ether wind.
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Old 12th November 2017, 12:59 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Define "Singularity".
The initial state of the universe, at the beginning of the Big Bang.
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Old 12th November 2017, 01:01 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
The individual atoms currently making up your body are probably the longest lived thing about you. About half your protons will still be around in 1.29x1034 years. But even they will decay eventually.

Of course, not one single atom in your body gives a damn whether you live or die. So, it's sort of a losing proposition in total.
Thanks.

What we shall be at the time of Big Bang?
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Old 12th November 2017, 01:05 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
At the moment there is no scientific base for immortality.

Nothing is nature is immortal. Even bacteria, which long were thought to be functionally immortal, have by now been show to have finite life spans.
I suspect biological immortality is impossible without a radical re-engineering of our genetics.

Maybe, just maybe, we will eventually be able to copy our consciousness and memories onto a form of computer and achieve functional immortality that way, but whether we'd be able to cope with that is a different matter.
Thanks. That can still be secondary or partial immortality.

Btw, this question again: What wiil be our form at Big Bang?
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Old 12th November 2017, 01:10 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by barehl View Post
I can't understand any point you are trying to make in response to my post. I think I was quite clear: ghosts, souls, or spirits don't exist and this can be proven. This has nothing at all to do with someone with brain damage or children. Your reply is gibberish.
Yes but I think. ghosts/souls, even if possible, can not be in materialistic or physical form. These can either be in some energy form or illusionary emotional form or in image form.?

Others was for different angle i.e. giving so much importance to brain.
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Old 12th November 2017, 01:17 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
What we shall be at the time of Big Bang?
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Btw, this question again: What wiil be our form at Big Bang?

Kumar, you do realise that the "Big Bang" is an event that took place in the past, and long before we existed, don't you?
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Old 12th November 2017, 01:24 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Kumar, you do realise that the "Big Bang" is an event that took place in the past, and long before we existed, don't you?
Yes, but does not it have some role in making us at our most prime level?

Whether photons are eternal?
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Old 12th November 2017, 01:44 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Yes, but does not it have some role in making us at our most prime level?

The definitions of "prime", "energy state", "Big Bang state", and "singularity" you have posted in this thread mean that you are asking whether the Big Bang had some role in the Big Bang. This is not a useful question.
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Old 12th November 2017, 01:59 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
The definitions of "prime", "energy state", "Big Bang state", and "singularity" you have posted in this thread mean that you are asking whether the Big Bang had some role in the Big Bang. This is not a useful question.
I do not know, how you calculated it. I am just feeling, our ultimate should be somewhat big bang singularity form and that form should be eternal (but can stll change or modify in different forms).

In sense, can't energy transformation into different forms or photon absorption & emition in different wavelength be somehow be related to reincarnation ?
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Old 12th November 2017, 02:07 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I do not know, how you calculated it. I am just feeling, our ultimate should be somewhat big bang singularity form and that form should be eternal (but can stll change or modify in different forms).

In sense, can't energy transformation into different forms or photon absorption & emition in different wavelength be somehow be related to reincarnation ?
You are totally ignoring the fact that a formless void serves immortal space time events.
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Old 12th November 2017, 02:14 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I do not know, how you calculated it. I am just feeling, our ultimate should be somewhat big bang singularity form and that form should be eternal (but can stll change or modify in different forms).

In sense, can't energy transformation into different forms or photon absorption & emition in different wavelength be somehow be related to reincarnation ?

This is nonsense.
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Old 12th November 2017, 02:20 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
You are totally ignoring the fact that a formless void serves immortal space time events.
Yes, I ignored it. However I am not sure, if we can be anyway be primarily converted into these? Still, in any calculation zero and even a dot also has importance.

It is also their in some religions:

Quote:
Nirguna and Saguna

Two Aspects of God

God can be experienced in two aspects – as NIRGUNA and SAGUNA .

NIRGUNA[propertyless] is the eternal all-pervading and omnipresent divine consciousness.
SAGUNA[with proprty] is the manifestation of God in form.
https://www.chakras.net/yoga-princip...una-and-saguna
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Last edited by Kumar; 12th November 2017 at 02:28 AM. Reason: add & correct
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Old 12th November 2017, 02:35 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Self replicating robots on interstellar journeys mining the void for precious atoms to fuse into their ever-expanding metal bodies.
And mindlessly trashing the home planet of sentient beings who can do nothing to stop them.

We would be proud to see the day.
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Old 12th November 2017, 02:44 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
And mindlessly trashing the home planet of sentient beings who can do nothing to stop them.

We would be proud to see the day.
Well, you can't launch a space fleet of unstoppable marauding robots without breaking a few eggs. After all, these robots will be our descendants and kids will be kids...
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Old 12th November 2017, 02:44 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
This is nonsense.
[quote]Inflation and baryogenesis

Main articles: Cosmic inflation and baryogenesis

Quote:
The earliest phases of the Big Bang are subject to much speculation. In the most common models the universe was filled homogeneously and isotropically with a very high energy density and huge temperatures and pressures and was very rapidly expanding and cooling. Approximately 10−37 seconds into the expansion, a phase transition caused a cosmic inflation, during which the universe grew exponentially during which time density fluctuations that occurred because of the uncertainty principle were amplified into the seeds that would later form the large-scale structure of the universe.[18] After inflation stopped, reheating occurred until the universe obtained the temperatures required for the production of a quark–gluon plasma as well as all other elementary particles.[19] Temperatures were so high that the random motions of particles were at relativistic speeds, and particle–antiparticle pairs of all kinds were being continuously created and destroyed in collisions.[5] At some point, an unknown reaction called baryogenesis violated the conservation of baryon number, leading to a very small excess of quarks and leptons over antiquarks and antileptons—of the order of one part in 30 million. This resulted in the predominance of matter over antimatter in the present universe.[20]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
I think, going to above level, shall be like, losing our individuality and getting our universality. Although, it can be bit odd to discuss but I feel understanding of real/absolute sense of Immortality may not possible without it.
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