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Old 13th November 2017, 11:44 PM   #1
Scorpion
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Scorpions experiment

Right, lets get down to business. You people keep demanding evidence for my claims that a spirit world exists. I keep telling you I can't give you objective evidence but if you went to a spiritualist church for long enough you might get subjective evidence for yourselves.

SO WHY DON'T YOU GO TO CHURCH? Then post your experiences here.

I suggest any of you that want to find out for yourselves if there is anything in spiritualism go to church every Sunday for at least a month. Bearing in mind that I went for two years before I had evidential messages that finally convince me that some mediums are genuine. Spiritualist churches are free and just send round a voluntary collection plate, you don't have to contribute.
So investigate for yourselves, why don't you?

Here is a list of UK churches.

http://www.thespiritualist.org/

Here is a list of USA churches.

http://www.spiritualistresources.com...rsUSA/index.pl
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Last edited by Scorpion; 13th November 2017 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 13th November 2017, 11:51 PM   #2
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Evidence can't be subjective.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Right, lets get down to business. You people keep demanding evidence for my claims that a spirit world exists. I keep telling you I can't give you objective evidence but if you went to a spiritualist church for long enough you might get subjective evidence for yourselves.

SO WHY DON'T YOU GO TO CHURCH? Then post your experiences here.

I suggest any of you that want to find out for yourselves if there is anything in spiritualism got to church every Sunday for at least a month. Bearing in mind that I went for two years before I had evidential messages that finally convince me that some mediums are genuine.
So investigate for yourselves, why don't you?

Here is a list of UK churches.

http://www.thespiritualist.org/

Here is a list of USA churches.

http://www.spiritualistresources.com...rsUSA/index.pl
Which church? Catholic, Jewish, Episcopalian, Buddhist, Scientology, Satanist, Wiccan, Islamic, Taoist, Discordian, Subgenius, Zoroastorian, Pastafarian?

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Old 13th November 2017, 11:54 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Right, lets get down to business. You people keep demanding evidence for my claims that a spirit world exists. I keep telling you I can't give you objective evidence but if you went to a spiritualist church for long enough you might get subjective evidence for yourselves.

SO WHY DON'T YOU GO TO CHURCH? Then post your experiences here.

I suggest any of you that want to find out for yourselves if there is anything in spiritualism got to church every Sunday for at least a month. Bearing in mind that I went for two years before I had evidential messages that finally convince me that some mediums are genuine.
So investigate for yourselves, why don't you?

Here is a list of UK churches.

http://www.thespiritualist.org/

Here is a list of USA churches.

http://www.spiritualistresources.com...rsUSA/index.pl
How is that evidence? Much more likely evidence of fraud and gullibility.
Why would someone who's been of a skeptical mindset suddenly become willing to be involved in a church simply because they are dead?
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Old 13th November 2017, 11:54 PM   #4
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What makes you think we haven't?
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Old 13th November 2017, 11:56 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Right, lets get down to business. You people keep demanding evidence for my claims that a spirit world exists. I keep telling you I can't give you objective evidence but if you went to a spiritualist church for long enough you might get subjective evidence for yourselves.

SO WHY DON'T YOU GO TO CHURCH? Then post your experiences here.

I suggest any of you that want to find out for yourselves if there is anything in spiritualism go to church every Sunday for at least a month. Bearing in mind that I went for two years before I had evidential messages that finally convince me that some mediums are genuine. Spiritualist churches are free and just send round a voluntary collection plate, you don't have to contribute.
So investigate for yourselves, why don't you?

Here is a list of UK churches.

http://www.thespiritualist.org/

Here is a list of USA churches.

http://www.spiritualistresources.com...rsUSA/index.pl
There is not one within hundreds of miles. Besides, I like to sleep late on Sundays. Can't they do something like a traveling salvation show?
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Old 13th November 2017, 11:56 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Evidence can't be subjective.
If you are told things that the medium could not have known about you, that would be cause for pause wouldn't it.

By the way I forgot to say that to avoid cold reading you should keep a straight face if given a message, and only answer yes or no to questions.
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Old 13th November 2017, 11:59 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What makes you think we haven't?
Some may have, but many skeptics have probably not really give mediums a chance. I am not saying pay a private medium, I am suggesting attending a church service where nobody knows you, and see what happens.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:01 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
There is not one within hundreds of miles. Besides, I like to sleep late on Sundays. Can't they do something like a traveling salvation show?
Churches usually have an afternoon and evening service, and there are often traveling demonstrations of clairvoyance, but they usually charge admission.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:05 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Evidence can't be subjective.



Which church? Catholic, Jewish, Episcopalian, Buddhist, Scientology, Satanist, Wiccan, Islamic, Taoist, Discordian, Subgenius, Zoroastorian, Pastafarian?
Any spiritualist church, they may call themselves Christian spiritualists but mostly they have no doctrine.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:08 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Some may have, but many skeptics have probably not really give mediums a chance. I am not saying pay a private medium, I am suggesting attending a church service where nobody knows you, and see what happens.
What makes you think that attending a service where everybody around you is completely buying into the hype would be any more convincing than a private session? All that will happen is that you will seem a bigger dick for being a skeptic. It's lose-lose.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:13 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What makes you think that attending a service where everybody around you is completely buying into the hype would be any more convincing than a private session? All that will happen is that you will seem a bigger dick for being a skeptic. It's lose-lose.
Nobody will know you are a skeptic unless the medium figures it out, which would in itself be some evidence. You might get personal messages that nobody but you could have known, and that is what I mean by subjective evidence.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:17 AM   #12
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There is nothing to stop anyone paying for a private sitting, which would speed the process up as you are guaranteed a message. But I figure nobody here wants to pay.
In any case some people that do it for money probably are fakes. But those that circulate the spiritualist church circuit are vetted by the resident psychics, so not likely to be frauds.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:20 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
....... subjective evidence.........
Does not compute. These two words mean opposite things, and don't ever go together.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:20 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Nobody will know you are a skeptic unless the medium figures it out, which would in itself be some evidence. You might get personal messages that nobody but you could have known, and that is what I mean by subjective evidence.
Are you kidding? Have you ever been to a spiritualist church? Everybody is peer-pressured to participate. Sitting in the back saying "no thanks" is a brilliant way to draw all the attention to yourself. The only way you can blend in is by pretending to be buying into it, and for a skeptic, that's dishonest.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:22 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There is nothing to stop anyone paying for a private sitting, which would speed the process up as you are guaranteed a message. But I figure nobody here wants to pay.
In any case some people that do it for money probably are fakes. But those that circulate the spiritualist church circuit are vetted by the resident psychics, so not likely to be frauds.
Sheesh! Like I'm gonna ask a psychic whether this medium is legit or fake. Psychics have no credibility either.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:24 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There is nothing to stop anyone paying for a private sitting, which would speed the process up as you are guaranteed a message. But I figure nobody here wants to pay.
In any case some people that do it for money probably are fakes. But those that circulate the spiritualist church circuit are vetted by the resident psychics, so not likely to be frauds.
Do you have a foolproof method of determining a genuine psychic from a clever faker?
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:27 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Do you have a foolproof method of determining a genuine psychic from a clever faker?
I don't other that using reason to determine whether the medium is telling me something they could not know by ordinary means. But the people that run spiritualist churches are usually psychic themselves, so they soon know a faker.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:29 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What makes you think we haven't?
This.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:33 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There is nothing to stop anyone paying for a private sitting, which would speed the process up as you are guaranteed a message. But I figure nobody here wants to pay.
In any case some people that do it for money probably are fakes. But those that circulate the spiritualist church circuit are vetted by the resident psychics, so not likely to be frauds.
Been to "spiritualist church", private and public readings and they were all the same i.e. nothing that couldn't be totally explained by mundane ways. Never once have I heard anything that would require a "spirit" to be communicating.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:33 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There is nothing to stop anyone paying for a private sitting, which would speed the process up as you are guaranteed a message. But I figure nobody here wants to pay.
In any case some people that do it for money probably are fakes. But those that circulate the spiritualist church circuit are vetted by the resident psychics, so not likely to be frauds.
The evidence shows that the opposite can be true.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:34 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't other that using reason to determine whether the medium is telling me something they could not know by ordinary means. But the people that run spiritualist churches are usually psychic themselves, so they soon know a faker.
You know, of course, that clever fakers have techniques that they can use to convince you that they're telling you something that they couldn't otherwise know. But they're lying, because they're clever.

And no, the people who run spiritualist churches aren't psychic. At best, they're clever fakers. At worst, they've fallen for the clever fakers.

It might interest you to know that we - skeptics - do have a method for telling real psychics from clever fakers, and it's pretty reliable. Do you want to know how we do it?
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:36 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post

It might interest you to know that we - skeptics - do have a method for telling real psychics from clever fakers, and it's pretty reliable. Do you want to know how we do it?
Do tell.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:44 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You know, of course, that clever fakers have techniques that they can use to convince you that they're telling you something that they couldn't otherwise know. But they're lying, because they're clever.
Hell, I've done it myself come to think of it, using a technique that wasn't even particularly clever.

Someone at work - this was about fifteen years ago, btw - forwarded around the office some crap email about "celtic horoscopes", based on trees or something. I replied saying that I knew of a really good technique for producing a reading that I could show her if she was interested, and that I had never failed to get good results from it. She replied that she was, and I asked her for her place and date of birth.

Then I went to three different horoscope websites, typed random dates and places into each - I didn't even use the information she gave me - and copied random paragraphs into an email that I sent back to her.

She replied that it was one of the most accurate readings she had ever received - that it said things about her that she hadn't ever told anyone before. I hadn't even read what I sent her.

That's how easy it is to convince someone that you've got some sort of supernatural power - especially if they are already predisposed to believe it. Notice how I primed my colleague by saying that my method was effective before she had even taken me up on my offer. She was ready to believe whatever crap I gave her. I gave her crap, and she believed it.

Spiritualists and mediums and channellers and psychics and aura readers and the like are all using ordinary mundane techniques to fool people. In some cases they fool even themselves.

They have fooled you, too.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:49 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Do tell.
You know this. It has been explained to you before.

First, we get the subject to define precisely what they believe they can do, and under what conditions. Then we provide those conditions, and get them to try to do it under careful and impartial observation.

When all the variables, subjectivities and statistical noise are removed or controlled for, if they can actually do what they say they can do, then we concede that they may be psychic.

So far, no-one has been able to demonstrate any kind of psychic power under controlled conditions.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:53 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Do tell.
I still think it is the definitve book on cold reading techniques: The Full Facts of Cold Reading


And for details of how professional mediums collude to defraud people: The Psychic Mafia
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:05 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You know this. It has been explained to you before.

First, we get the subject to define precisely what they believe they can do, and under what conditions. Then we provide those conditions, and get them to try to do it under careful and impartial observation.

When all the variables, subjectivities and statistical noise are removed or controlled for, if they can actually do what they say they can do, then we concede that they may be psychic.

So far, no-one has been able to demonstrate any kind of psychic power under controlled conditions.
But you know the standard response: If they can't use their powers when they're being observed, that's not because they were wrong or cheating, it's because the magic actively frustrates verification for some weird reason...
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:11 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If you are told things that the medium could not have known about you, that would be cause for pause wouldn't it.
Only if you could eliminate every possible way in which they could have known or guessed those things. And since there may be ways you haven't even thought of, that's practically impossible.

I once saw David Copperfield saw himself in half and put himself back together again. I have no idea how he did it. According to your "reasoning" I should now believe that it's possible for someone to saw himself in half and put himself back together again.

This is why anecdotal evidence is worthless when it comes to drawing reliable conclusions. Anecdotal evidence can suggest that there may be a phenomenon that is worthy of proper scientific study, but until you have done that study that is all you know. Proper scientific study of mediums has shown that they cannot produce readings which are any more accurate than would be expected by chance under conditions which exclude not just deliberate trickery but confirmation bias and subjective validation - the well known ways in which both mediums and their clients can fool themselves into thinking readings are more accurate than would be expected by chance even though they are not.

If you really want to find out whether spiritualist mediums are genuinely communicating with the spirit world visit spiritualist churches yourself until you find one you think is genuine and then persuade them to undergo proper scientific testing. Then, and only then, will you have data from which you can draw a reliable conclusion.
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:40 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
...
I once saw David Copperfield saw himself in half and put himself back together again. I have no idea how he did it. ...
A possible explanation is given here: http://www.goodtricks.net/david-copp...explained.html, he seems to be collaborating with another actor.
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:40 AM   #29
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How about you do an experiment and give critical thinking a chance?
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Old 14th November 2017, 02:06 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
A possible explanation is given here: http://www.goodtricks.net/david-copp...explained.html, he seems to be collaborating with another actor.
I'd actually prefer not to know, and just enjoy the illusion.

It's not like Copperfield is claiming to have genuine supernatural abilities, and he obviously isn't fooling himself (or anyone else) that he does. People willingly pay to be amazed, and he delivers. No deception, deliberate or inadvertent, is required.
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Old 14th November 2017, 02:12 AM   #31
Cosmic Yak
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Why do I need to go to a church? Why do I need to be physically present, in front of the medium, in order for them to receive messages from the spirit world? If someone from the other side is trying to get in touch with me, they could just tell the medium, give my email address, and the medium could contact me that way.
What is it about my physical presence before the medium that is so essential? I can't see that it makes any difference to the spirit world.
To further comment one of Scorpion's anecdotes: why go to all that trouble just to tell me that I wasn't happy with a painting I had just done? Why do I need to go to a church and sit in a crowd of expectant believers for this kind of thing to work, and why are the messages so mundane? Skeptics here will be able to hazard an answer, but I'd like Scorpion's answer to this.
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Old 14th November 2017, 05:54 AM   #32
Loss Leader
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Right, lets get down to business. You people keep demanding evidence for my claims that a spirit world exists. I keep telling you I can't give you objective evidence but if you went to a spiritualist church for long enough you might get subjective evidence for yourselves.

SO WHY DON'T YOU GO TO CHURCH? Then post your experiences here.

I suggest any of you that want to find out for yourselves if there is anything in spiritualism go to church every Sunday for at least a month. Bearing in mind that I went for two years before I had evidential messages that finally convince me that some mediums are genuine. Spiritualist churches are free and just send round a voluntary collection plate, you don't have to contribute.
So investigate for yourselves, why don't you?

Did you watch Friends for two years and become convinced there was really a coffee shop called Central Perk?
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Old 14th November 2017, 06:00 AM   #33
Cleon
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I thought this thread was about torturing POWs with "The Winds of Change."

Anyhoo, you'll find a good chunk of the more vocal atheists here are former Christians of one stripe or another.
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Old 14th November 2017, 06:22 AM   #34
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I was a good Catholic boy for nearly 20 years. Of course, the Catholics didn’t have much truck with “spirits”... That was for those “other” churches. Highly suspicious.

How come these spirits only manifest in spiritualist churches? Wouldn’t there be Buddhist and Muslim spirits? How about Shinto? Being an “animist” religion... It’s all about spirits. Yet oddly, there’s very little report of “appearances” at Shinto shrines. Adherents seem to be satisfied with a little hand-clap and perhaps a stick of incense.
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Old 14th November 2017, 06:56 AM   #35
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If you truly believe it's impossible for psychics to be fooled by a faker, then I suggest you watch this:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:01 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Right, lets get down to business. You people keep demanding evidence for my claims that a spirit world exists. I keep telling you I can't give you objective evidence but if you went to a spiritualist church for long enough you might get subjective evidence for yourselves.

SO WHY DON'T YOU GO TO CHURCH? Then post your experiences here.

I suggest any of you that want to find out for yourselves if there is anything in spiritualism go to church every Sunday for at least a month. Bearing in mind that I went for two years before I had evidential messages that finally convince me that some mediums are genuine. Spiritualist churches are free and just send round a voluntary collection plate, you don't have to contribute.
So investigate for yourselves, why don't you?

Here is a list of UK churches.

http://www.thespiritualist.org/

Here is a list of USA churches.

http://www.spiritualistresources.com...rsUSA/index.pl
Fraudsters tend to be good at frauding. It is their skill set. No spirits though!!!
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:03 AM   #37
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Bad experiment design. Here is how you do it.

Place a divider in the room. Sit silently on one side. Have the medium enter on the opposite side, write down observations, then leave.
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:06 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Are you kidding? Have you ever been to a spiritualist church? Everybody is peer-pressured to participate. Sitting in the back saying "no thanks" is a brilliant way to draw all the attention to yourself. The only way you can blend in is by pretending to be buying into it, and for a skeptic, that's dishonest.
No problem - so are the leaders of the church (unless they actually believe the feces they spread in which case they are deluded).
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:00 AM   #39
Scorpion
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Why do I need to go to a church? Why do I need to be physically present, in front of the medium, in order for them to receive messages from the spirit world? If someone from the other side is trying to get in touch with me, they could just tell the medium, give my email address, and the medium could contact me that way.
What is it about my physical presence before the medium that is so essential? I can't see that it makes any difference to the spirit world.
To further comment one of Scorpion's anecdotes: why go to all that trouble just to tell me that I wasn't happy with a painting I had just done? Why do I need to go to a church and sit in a crowd of expectant believers for this kind of thing to work, and why are the messages so mundane? Skeptics here will be able to hazard an answer, but I'd like Scorpion's answer to this.
What use would it be if mediums got peoples details and emailed it to them.
You would just write it off as a scam. If you really want to know if there are genuine mediums you have to seek them out. Then it takes some time to get really evidential messages. The best place to get them is in a church.

AS for the messages being mundane there is a deeper philosophy in spiritualism, and you have to seek that out too.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:03 AM   #40
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Scorpion, I urge you not to ignore Post #35.
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