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Old 14th November 2017, 08:12 AM   #41
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Okay, I posted a Derren Brown video about psychics earlier. That was part of a special called Messiah. I'm going to post the whole video below. The premise of the programme is that Brown is going around America where at the time he was unknown using trickery to appear to have various special abilities and seeing if he can convince experts in their respective fields to give him a public endorsement. And the biggest rule he sets for himself is that if anybody asks him whether it's a trick, he'll say yes.

It's worth watching the whole thing, but if you want to look at spriritualism specifically, then skip to 35 minutes in. The segment in question is 10 minutes or so long.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:54 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't other that using reason
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:35 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
What use would it be if mediums got peoples details and emailed it to them.
You would just write it off as a scam.
Why? If as you claim they have access to unknowable information about you that would still be the case if they sent the information by carrier pigeon or Morse code or email.
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

If you really want to know if there are genuine mediums you have to seek them out. Then it takes some time to get really evidential messages.
Why?
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The best place to get them is in a church.
Why & evidence?
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
AS for the messages being mundane there is a deeper philosophy in spiritualism, and you have to seek that out too.
We've been exploring your deeper philosophy in the other thread. One would suggest you do like the Scientologists - don't reveal it all until you've got your claws into them - suspect that if you come out with the essence of your philosophy at the start i.e. "yeah we can get you in touch with your kid who suffered from 8 years of living hell wasn't she the lucky one?" may not endear you to them.
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Last edited by Darat; 14th November 2017 at 09:36 AM. Reason: letters and words
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:39 AM   #44
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Can I just say that the title of this thread bothers me? Every time I see it, the lack of apostrophe makes me think it's discussing an experiment done on scorpions.
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:46 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Can I just say that the title of this thread bothers me? Every time I see it, the lack of apostrophe makes me think it's discussing an experiment done on scorpions.
And I can't get away from the nagging suspicion that Rudolf Schenker was involved.

Dave
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:10 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why? If as you claim they have access to unknowable information about you that would still be the case if they sent the information by carrier pigeon or Morse code or email.
You cannot seriously expect mediums to email strangers with personal details about them, and not be accused of some kind of scam.

Why should evidence be handed to people on a plate, the spirit world is not
concerned with trying to convert a lot of skeptics. They only help those that sincerely seek the truth. It takes time to get evidential messages if you go to church as there is a queue of spirits waiting to get through to their relatives. so you don't often get a message, and then the medium might not give much that is evidential.
Churches are usually run by psychic people so the mediums they ask to give a service are usually genuine. But paying a medium for a private sitting might well expose you to fakes. You could spend a lot of money going to different mediums for private sittings before finding a good one.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:15 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You cannot seriously expect .......
.........Scorpion to comment on #35 and #41.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:31 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Churches are usually run by psychic people so the mediums they ask to give a service are usually genuine.
Because they have been vetted by the resident psychics and psychics will spot a fraud? Please watch the videos I've posted.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:41 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Spiritualist churches are free and just send round a voluntary collection plate, you don't have to contribute.
So investigate for yourselves, why don't you?

Here is a list of UK churches.

http://www.thespiritualist.org/

Here is a list of USA churches.

http://www.spiritualistresources.com...rsUSA/index.pl
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The only money that changes hands is what is donated in the collection plate.
You're kidding right? Free and they just send around VOLUNTARY collection plates? Money only changes hands via the collection plate?! What a crock! Since when does "donation required" mean voluntary? I've gone to a few sites in your list above and found the following:

https://www.montclairpsychicschool.c...r-classes.html
Hmmm... $250 a class? $85? Take your pick!

https://www.montclairpsychicschool.c...ointments.html
Quote:
Combination Reading 1 hour @ $150.00
This is a reading combining Mediumship and a Psychic Reading. The first portion of the reading will be Spirit Contact with Loved Ones in the Spirit World around you. The 2nd portion of the reading will be on a Psychic level, giving you insight and guidance into your life.
https://www.plymouthspiritualistchur.../buildingspace
Quote:
The Sanctuary holds 90-100 people (Seated) and has an elevated platform
Perfect for Weddings, Lectures, Memorial Services and More!
Suggested donations amounts: $40/hour ... 4 hour special $120 ... 8 hour special $240 ... 12 hours+ Negotiable.

The Fellowship Hall holds 15-30 people and has kitchen access
Perfect for Birthdays, reunions, get-togethers, classes, meetings .... even your monthly poker night!
Suggested donations amounts: $25/hour ... 4 hour special $75 ...8 hour special $150 ... 12 hours+ Negotiable
https://www.plymouthspiritualistchurch.info/
Quote:
*Mediumship Workshop "Discovering Your Stream" to follow after service! All are welcome to take this workshop, cost is $30
https://www.plymouthspiritualistchurch.info/book-online
Quote:
Dessert & Divination
2 hr $20.00
Friday
You're invited to an evening of desserts & divination. Hosted by Friends of Plymouth; we will be serving several different cakes, tea, coffee and spirit with readings. Cost will be a low introductory rate of $20 and will include a dessert, a drink and a reading
...or...

Quote:
Psychic Dinner
3 hr $35.00
Friday
You are invited!
Friends of Plymouth will be hosting a pychic dinner! Our catered dinner will be made with love by La Cucina Di Maria. http://www.lacucinadimaria.com/ We will be serving dinner from 5:30pm - 7:00pm Readings to follow promptly. Each guest will receive a meal and a greeting from spirit for a rate of $35 per person. Guests who book parties of five or more will receive a special rate of $25 per person. To redeem the special rate of $25 for 5 seats please call Bethany 207-504-6776. Thanks!

http://independentspiritualists.org/GOLDEN_WORKSHOP.php
Quote:
Carl & Patti Hulse in Highland

Highland, Michigan
WED, JUN 14
SPECIAL
ALL MESSAGE SERVICE
Golden Light Spiritualist Church
7:00PM
We will have them also on
Thursday, June 15th if
too many to serve on Wednesday

CALL SUE FOR RESERVATIONS
248-882-0903 or 248-625-4348
$20 at the door
Includes refreshments
These are just a few I looked through. Many of the links are dead/expired. You trying to pass these spiritualist churches off as poor, no income, only done for the good of the human race establishments is absurd.

And then this:
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The spirit world do not want or intend to give absolute proof of their existence to the people of this world. Because that would defeat the very object of incarnation. Which is to choose our own path through the world and by doing so invoke karma that is designed to teach us to spiritually evolve. If we had absolute proof of the existence of the spirit world we might as well stay there and not incarnate at all.
Explain something to me Scorpion. If what you said above is true, then why do spirits and the spirit world make it SO easy to communicate with them? I mean, ANYONE can do it per this church:

http://www.firstspiritualistchurchof...Mediumship.htm
Quote:
Mediumship, regardless of its form, is accessible to all who seek it. Individuals, who learn to raise the energetic vibration in their body, can easily communicate with entities in the spiritual realm. FSCA offers weekly classes and an open circle to support all who wish to learn.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:47 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Bad experiment design. Here is how you do it.

Place a divider in the room. Sit silently on one side. Have the medium enter on the opposite side, write down observations, then leave.
That's a good start, but there's a lot more to a workable test protocol.

You need a number of people (five, say) to sit silently in turn whilst the medium gets whatever information they can about them from their spirit guides and writes it down. You then give copies of all five readings to all five subjects and ask each to pick out the one they think is for them. If all that's going on is the Forer Effect then all five will appear to be roughly equally applicable to all five subjects, and the one that resonates with them the most will only be the one that is actually intended for them as often as you would expect it to be by chance, i.e. on average only one would pick out the correct reading.

Repeat the experiment many more times until you have enough data for the results to be statistically significant, and if the average successful identification rate is sufficiently higher than that chance success rate you have objective evidence that the medium is genuine.

No medium/psychic/Tarot card reader/astrologer has ever passed such a test.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:52 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Besides as I have said there is virtually no money in it for the mediums who rotate around the spiritualist churches. They do it for love of the work, and as a service to others.

Fake mediums tend to be the ones who set themselves up independently of spiritualist churches, and they charge substantial fees for a private sitting.
So tell me Scorpion. Out of the churches in your linked list for the US, which ones are fakes and which are not? I see quite a bit of money being exchanged in addition to the "collection plate".
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:11 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
So tell me Scorpion. Out of the churches in your linked list for the US, which ones are fakes and which are not? I see quite a bit of money being exchanged in addition to the "collection plate".
I don't know about USA churches, as I am English, I just posted a link to a list of churches in America for the convenience of Americans, I can't say I looked at any of the links.
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:25 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't know about USA churches, as I am English, I just posted a link to a list of churches in America for the convenience of Americans, I can't say I looked at any of the links.
Do you think it likely that US spiritualists are less scrupulous than their British counterparts?

And why do you believe that those who run the churches will be able to spot a fraud?
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:26 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't know about USA churches, as I am English, I just posted a link to a list of churches in America for the convenience of Americans, I can't say I looked at any of the links.
So this UK "church", http://www1.freespirit7.com/?, which took me to this UK "church" http://www.psychic-team.com/$1-tarot-readings.php, is ok with you?
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:29 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
.........Scorpion to comment on #35 and #41.
.........and still s/he hasn't troubled him/ herself to watch the videos. What a shock.
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:30 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Do you think it likely that US spiritualists are less scrupulous than their British counterparts?

And why do you believe that those who run the churches will be able to spot a fraud?
I have never paid to go to a church service in England apart from making a small donation when the plate is passed round, and I have been to a number of different churches in my time.

People who run spiritualist churches usually include a few psychic mediums in their ranks and they could vet the visiting medium. If the visitor turns out to be a fake they would not be asked back.
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:39 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

People who run spiritualist churches usually include a few psychic mediums in their ranks and they could vet the visiting medium. If the visitor turns out to be a fake they would not be asked back.
And the Nigerian prince always has notarized papers to prove he's good for the money...
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:41 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have never paid to go to a church service in England apart from making a small donation when the plate is passed round, and I have been to a number of different churches in my time.

People who run spiritualist churches usually include a few psychic mediums in their ranks and they could vet the visiting medium. If the visitor turns out to be a fake they would not be asked back.
Post #35 awaits your considered attention.
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:44 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have never paid to go to a church service in England apart from making a small donation when the plate is passed round, and I have been to a number of different churches in my time.

People who run spiritualist churches usually include a few psychic mediums in their ranks and they could vet the visiting medium. If the visitor turns out to be a fake they would not be asked back.
They're all fakes. Fakers vetting fakers. This is some sort of a joke.

Scorpion, watch the Derren Brown videos. They show a very clever magician working a table full of "mediums" at their own game, and getting all of them to say that they accept him as a "medium", and that he has "talent". In other words, the faker got passed by the the "mediums", who were completely taken in by him.


Now, if mediums can't even recognise other people playing their own game, what hope have you, or the rest of the world's gullible punters?
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:46 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have never paid to go to a church service in England apart from making a small donation when the plate is passed round, and I have been to a number of different churches in my time.
And what do church services have to do with the evidence you have shared with us pertaining to why you believe in the spirit world? Your evidence was presented as readings. Do they give free personal readings during church services?

Show me which church in the UK or US you might recommend for free personal readings so we can base our opinions on them. You said yourself that mediums do it for for the sake of love and helping people right?

Also, you made the claim that the only money that is exchanged is via the "collection plate". Why is it that every church I looked at via the web charged for their services? Minimum "donations" of $35.00 required.
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:50 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
People who run spiritualist churches usually include a few psychic mediums in their ranks and they could vet the visiting medium. If the visitor turns out to be a fake they would not be asked back.
If these resident "psychic mediums" knew how to tell if someone has a genuine paranormal ability they would not be convinced they had one themselves.
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:54 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
So this UK "church", http://www1.freespirit7.com/?, which took me to this UK "church" http://www.psychic-team.com/$1-tarot-readings.php, is ok with you?
I think Tarot card reading is nonsense, but I still believe there are genuine clairvoyant and clairaudient mediums.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:01 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
And what do church services have to do with the evidence you have shared with us pertaining to why you believe in the spirit world? Your evidence was presented as readings. Do they give free personal readings during church services?

Show me which church in the UK or US you might recommend for free personal readings so we can base our opinions on them. You said yourself that mediums do it for for the sake of love and helping people right?

Also, you made the claim that the only money that is exchanged is via the "collection plate". Why is it that every church I looked at via the web charged for their services? Minimum "donations" of $35.00 required.
English spiritualist churches hold services in which a visiting medium gives a talk, sometimes a trance lecture. After which there is a demonstration of clairvoyance and people get personal messages. All the churches I went to in England did not charge fees, they just passed round a voluntary collection plate. I cannot recommend any church as I have not been to one for over a decade. But there is the spiritualist association in London.
http://www.sagb.org.uk/
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 14th November 2017 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:08 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Scorpion, watch the Derren Brown videos. They show a very clever magician working a table full of "mediums" at their own game, and getting all of them to say that they accept him as a "medium", and that he has "talent". In other words, the faker got passed by the the "mediums", who were completely taken in by him.
I can anticipate the answer: He must be psychic and not realize it.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:15 PM   #65
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have never paid to go to a church service in England apart from making a small donation when the plate is passed round, and I have been to a number of different churches in my time.
This doesn't appear to be in response to anything I said.

Quote:
People who run spiritualist churches usually include a few psychic mediums in their ranks and they could vet the visiting medium. If the visitor turns out to be a fake they would not be asked back.
How would they know if the visitor were a fake?
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:18 PM   #66
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
I can anticipate the answer: He must be psychic and not realize it.
I predict it'll be that the psychics and mediums featured are themselves fakes.

If Scorpion deins to address the issue at all, that is.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:53 PM   #67
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I've got a counter experiment, The next time something happens that you consider odd or paranormal in nature, given your postings it shouldn't take long, I want you to ask yourself the following: "Ok what could have made that happen if wasn't spirits".

In short, Challenge yourself to come up with a non-spiritual explanation.
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:04 PM   #68
mikado
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
If you truly believe it's impossible for psychics to be fooled by a faker, then I suggest you watch this:

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I AGREE
That was so impressive..
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:06 PM   #69
mikado
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I think Tarot card reading is nonsense, but I still believe there are genuine clairvoyant and clairaudient mediums.
Why would tarot be nonsense?
You could at least make an arguable case that they can be interpersted in ways that suit the individuals subconscious .
No more no less nonsense than all the other outlandish claims
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:51 PM   #70
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I remember a show on the BBC years ago. They get 3 'Mediums' to visit an old historic Inn. They went to the stables and were asked to see if they could pick anything up.

The Inn website had been modified to include information about a murder that was supposed to have happened there at some time in the past and information on the murder was available at the site in the form of an information leaflet by the entrance and a wall board with a potted history of the place.

When they were put in to the stables one at a time all three reported 'disturbances' and started to come up with 'feelings' details from the other side relating to the murder which they hadn't been told about by the production team

Funny how it works.
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Old 14th November 2017, 02:54 PM   #71
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
Why would tarot be nonsense?
You could at least make an arguable case that they can be interpersted in ways that suit the individuals subconscious .
No more no less nonsense than all the other outlandish claims

Yes indeed. Scorpion dismisses tarot card reading as nonsense, and elsewhere some other woo he/she disregarded, with scant or non existent reasoning as justification, yet seems put out by our lack of belief in the credibility, of his/her own brand of woo.
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:02 PM   #72
John Jones
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
What use would it be if mediums got peoples details and emailed it to them.
You would just write it off as a scam. If you really want to know if there are genuine mediums you have to seek them out. Then it takes some time to get really evidential messages. The best place to get them is in a church.

.
About as much use as it is now. It is a scam, and I'm not going looking for them.
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:18 PM   #73
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I think Tarot card reading is nonsense, but I still believe there are genuine clairvoyant and clairaudient mediums.
Scorpion, would you like me to read your cards for you? I promise that this is a genuine offer, and that you will be absolutely astounded at how accurate I can be.
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:21 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Scorpion, would you like me to read your cards for you? I promise that this is a genuine offer, and that you will be absolutely astounded at how accurate I can be.
Feel free.
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:29 PM   #75
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Feel free.
Do you have a specific question you'd like answered, or are you just after a general reading of your personal situation?
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:32 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Do you have a specific question you'd like answered, or are you just after a general reading of your personal situation?
General reading.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:36 PM   #77
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
General reading.
Very well. Let me work on it for a bit and if it's okay with you I'll post the results in this thread. If you'd prefer to have the results privately, let me know.
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:39 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Very well. Let me work on it for a bit and if it's okay with you I'll post the results in this thread. If you'd prefer to have the results privately, let me know.
Post it on the thread.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:51 PM   #79
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You're still ignoring those Derren Brown clips, Scorpion. It's looking deliberate.
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:52 PM   #80
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Post it on the thread.
Righto then.
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