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Old 15th September 2017, 08:20 AM   #2441
Argumemnon
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In fact since Jabba introduced the idea of the soul lottery making his existence unlikely and therefore the metaphysics under which said lottery operates equally unlikely, doesn't that make the idea of the soul the unlikely one? I mean, under H there is no such lottery, and no souls to be picked from. The self you get just arises from whatever you get, so likelihood is irrelevant.

For some reason I didn't spot that before, but jabba's been arguing against spiritualism this whole time.
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Old 15th September 2017, 08:28 AM   #2442
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Thank jah it's Friday.

Adiós, Jabba. Vaya con diós.
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Old 15th September 2017, 08:29 AM   #2443
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah. We probably are done.
No 'probably' about it, you have admitted failure.. If you want to discuss something other than your 'proof' of immortality, please start a new thread.
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Old 15th September 2017, 08:30 AM   #2444
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
In fact since Jabba introduced the idea of the soul lottery making his existence unlikely and therefore the metaphysics under which said lottery operates equally unlikely, doesn't that make the idea of the soul the unlikely one? I mean, under H there is no such lottery, and no souls to be picked from. The self you get just arises from whatever you get, so likelihood is irrelevant.

For some reason I didn't spot that before, but jabba's been arguing against spiritualism this whole time.
Yup. At which point Jabba then goes back to insisting that we're missing something in H. (Just a day or so after acknowledging that H doesn't include a soul or anything like it...)
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Old 15th September 2017, 08:30 AM   #2445
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
In fact since Jabba introduced the idea of the soul lottery making his existence unlikely and therefore the metaphysics under which said lottery operates equally unlikely, doesn't that make the idea of the soul the unlikely one? I mean, under H there is no such lottery, and no souls to be picked from. The self you get just arises from whatever you get, so likelihood is irrelevant.

For some reason I didn't spot that before, but jabba's been arguing against spiritualism this whole time.
I may be wrong, but I think that's one of the things Mojo has been trying to point out to Jabba.
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:01 AM   #2446
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I may be wrong, but I think that's one of the things Mojo has been trying to point out to Jabba.
Somewhat, but from a different angle. IIRC mojo has been saying that the combo of body+soul is more unlikely than just body. What I'm saying is that jabba's concept of unlikelihood doesn't even apply to just body.
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:03 AM   #2447
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I may be wrong, but I think that's one of the things Mojo has been trying to point out to Jabba.
A lot of people have been pointing that out. It's covered under Fatal Flaw #2 on the list Jabba can't answer.
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:05 AM   #2448
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Thank jah it's Friday

Adiós, Jabba. Vaya con diós.
Carlitos,
- Muchas gracias, y tener una buena vida.
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:06 AM   #2449
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Carlitos,
- Muchas gracias, y tener una buena vida.
Are you done or not?
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:21 AM   #2450
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He's done presenting evidence for his claim
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Old 15th September 2017, 09:42 AM   #2451
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I can't remember if this has been asked before. Has Jabba been introduced to DoronShadmi and his ideas of modes of thinking limiting ability to understand mathematics?
"Once more your partial use of your brain skills (their verbal-symbolic-only skills) fails to comprehend awareness that links visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic brain skills into one comprehensive realm that is aware of itself and it is not the sum of its expressions. "

and

"You simply can't comprehend it by partially using your brain skills, and as a result it is always a part of your future (your "I will ..." is the best that you currently can get)."
[ETA]Can't forget this one:
"Any way, the model of Möbius strip naturally demonstrates the linkage among being aware of one thing at once (the visual_spatial brain skill) as the substance of being aware of multiple things step-by-step (the verbal_symbolic brain skill)."

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Old 15th September 2017, 10:14 AM   #2452
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah. We probably are done.

- It appears that this perception originates in the holistic hemisphere, and that either the analytic hemisphere is "transcendence-blind" or the holistic hemisphere hallucinates.
Hi jabba,
Easy enough to deal with perception is studied all the time, the whole brain BTW all the time.

Neurology studies it all the time as does psychology.

Now wanting fantasy to be true is another issue.
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Old 15th September 2017, 10:16 AM   #2453
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I think that I sense it.
Hi Jabba,
We can talk brains and neurology and the psychology of perception all the time.

Did you know about confabulation or how your brain makes up the visual field in the blind spot.

It is fascinating stuff, and that is just the hard science stuff, much less socially influenced perceptions and emotions.
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Old 15th September 2017, 01:21 PM   #2454
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah. We probably are done.

Jabba -

I wish you well. I'm very glad to see you leaving this mess. It means, I hope, that you will use this new free time to educate yourself about world religions, statistics, logical argument and so much more. I desire nothing other, when we see you again, to here about your new perspectives.


Quote:
It appears that this perception originates in the holistic hemisphere, and that either the analytic hemisphere is "transcendence-blind" or the holistic hemisphere hallucinates.

This would be a great place for you to start. Your understanding of the brain is out of date by a few decades. The left and right hemispheres do not divide work in the way you described. Newer insights would be very useful to you.


Quote:
- Thanks for your time.

You have nothing but my fondest farewell.
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Old 15th September 2017, 03:23 PM   #2455
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
He's done presenting evidence for his claim
Huh. Here I've been lurking for years waiting for him to begin.
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Old 15th September 2017, 04:10 PM   #2456
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He has claimed that he was 'done' before, only to resume his activity a few weeks later. I predict the discussion will continue. The introduction of this new 'dimension' thing is good for 1000 posts or so.
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Old 15th September 2017, 05:33 PM   #2457
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Guys, please resist the temptation to taunt him out of retirement, beetlejuice-style. I admire the focus and persistence that drove the recent devolution of this debate to its ignominious end. Any resurrection of this topic would be an unsatisfying sequel. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 15th September 2017, 05:38 PM   #2458
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Guys, please resist the temptation to taunt him out of retirement, beetlejuice-style. I admire the focus and persistence that drove the recent devolution of this debate to its ignominious end. Any resurrection of this topic would be an unsatisfying sequel. Just my 2 cents.
I don't disagree per se, but I for one am not going to pretend that Jabba hasn't admitted multiple times that his goal here was not to win an argument with us per se, but to mine enough quotes out of us for him to create a fictional narrative of him winning the debate for him to post elsewhere and I do wonder if that is still his goal.

Ending the discussion here was never going to be the end in his original plan.
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Old 15th September 2017, 05:40 PM   #2459
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Guys, please resist the temptation to taunt him out of retirement, beetlejuice-style. I admire the focus and persistence that drove the recent devolution of this debate to its ignominious end. Any resurrection of this topic would be an unsatisfying sequel. Just my 2 cents.
OK.
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Old 16th September 2017, 04:49 AM   #2460
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Guys, please resist the temptation to taunt him out of retirement, beetlejuice-style. I admire the focus and persistence that drove the recent devolution of this debate to its ignominious end. Any resurrection of this topic would be an unsatisfying sequel. Just my 2 cents.
OH come on. Secretly we love it. It's rewarding and satisfying to exercise your debunking skills against such a slippery, obtuse, constantly evolving 'argument'.
Jabba posts and immediately gets a flurry of eager responses; myself included. It is like watching a car wreck.
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Old 16th September 2017, 05:13 AM   #2461
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
He has claimed that he was 'done' before, only to resume his activity a few weeks later.

Once it was about 18 months. He went back to his shroud thread, then eventually abandoned that again and started a new thread about immortality, only to see it merged back into the old one.
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Old 16th September 2017, 06:34 AM   #2462
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Jabba -

I wish you well. I'm very glad to see you leaving this mess. It means, I hope, that you will use this new free time to educate yourself about world religions, statistics, logical argument and so much more. I desire nothing other, when we see you again, to here about your new perspectives.





This would be a great place for you to start. Your understanding of the brain is out of date by a few decades. The left and right hemispheres do not divide work in the way you described. Newer insights would be very useful to you.





You have nothing but my fondest farewell.
LL,
- Thanks. You tried.
--- Jabba
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Old 16th September 2017, 10:00 AM   #2463
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
LL,
- Thanks. You tried.
--- Jabba
Indeed, many of us have tried. But you have no interest in being educated because you imagine that you're the one who should be doing the educating. The jury can clearly see how that's worked out for you.
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Old 16th September 2017, 10:23 AM   #2464
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
LL,
- Thanks. You tried.
--- Jabba
Everybody tried except you.
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Old 18th September 2017, 06:47 AM   #2465
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Thanks. You tried.
Quite a of people tried, and not just us here at JREF/ISF. And the manner in which you received their efforts does not reflect well upon you. If uncritical approval is what you seek by going online, then pursue something unequivocally praiseworthy. These charades of debates have small intrinsic value and cast you ultimately in an unflattering character.
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Old 18th September 2017, 07:17 AM   #2466
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Quite a of people tried, and not just us here at JREF/ISF. And the manner in which you received their efforts does not reflect well upon you. If uncritical approval is what you seek by going online, then pursue something unequivocally praiseworthy. These charades of debates have small intrinsic value and cast you ultimately in an unflattering character.
I think you are wrong. It is apparent that there is some degree of selective blindness to how it might appear at all. One can observe this when the appeal to an army of silent lurkers is trotted out. The Apollo Hoax is a classic. Wingnuts like Cosmored/FatFreddy/insert alias of choice wheeled this out on a regular basis.

The argument (with variations) runs "You may all disagree with me, but my silent army of anonymous supporters fully accept <point of contention>".

This, of course leads to certain questions.

- Who are these people?
- How do you know they support you? Or even exist?

And so forth. There are many holes in that Swiss cheese.

So back to this thread in particular. It is Jabba's claim that a neutral jury composed of unbiased individuals would concede. Who are those jurors? And why have they not made themselves known? And how exactly is this claim different from the immortality claim? or the shroud claim? or the god claim?
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:29 AM   #2467
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
- Who are these people?
- How do you know they support you? Or even exist?
The odds of their existence seems low.

Honestly, I think it's just a bad inference. My ideas seem reasonable to me, therefore, the reasonable people of the world would agree with me. In addition, anyone who disagrees must not be reasonable.
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:53 AM   #2468
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Sounds reasonable.
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:13 AM   #2469
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I seem to remember a poll regarding Jabba's silent lurkers. Asking how many did not believe Jabba's argument vs. how many did.

The results if I remember correctly had a 0 in the denominator.
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:24 AM   #2470
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
I seem to remember a poll regarding Jabba's silent lurkers. Asking how many did not believe Jabba's argument vs. how many did.

The results if I remember correctly had a 0 in the denominator.
ITYM numerator.

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Old 18th September 2017, 11:43 AM   #2471
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I think you are wrong. It is apparent that there is some degree of selective blindness to how it might appear at all.
Sure, from Jabba's perspective. I mean the character has has created for himself is unflattering (maybe "unattractive" is the word I meant) from a more objective point of view. You don't have to be a hard-boiled skeptic to see the humor in, "But my mom thinks I'm cool!" And if some outsider were to objectively evaluate the degree of detachment from criticism that Jabba exhibits in this thread alongside claims of general acceptance, I think he would conclude objectively that the acclaim is imaginary and that someone who relies on it is operating on a more wishful basis than he thinks. That's the sense in which I say that Jabba has painted an unflattering picture of himself. He has simply opened himself up to more third-party ridicule that will itself then have to be explained away in terms of ever-more imaginary lurkers.

None of that in any way disputes your observation that this sort of litigant tends to rely on building castles in the sky. All the fringe claimants I have encountered either claim that they aren't on the fringe, or that they will soon be joined on the fringe by a stampede of converted mainstreamers. They all have delusions regarding the objective appeal of their claims.

Quote:
This, of course leads to certain questions.

- Who are these people?
- How do you know they support you? Or even exist?
He hasn't answered that question in terms of this debate. But I asked him these questions in the Shroud thread. After a predictable delay in which he avoided the question entirely, the only answer he provided was a link back to a bibliography page from one of the Shroud web sites he was mining for sources. I think the answers in that foreign thread speak volumes to what his answers might be in this thread.

Who are they? In this thread I think they're just a faceless imaginary horde. In that thread they were people upon whom he had relied to argue his case here. This is why a lot of legitimate authorities I know simply shy away altogether from fringe debates. Even though they would be legitimate authorities on the relevant facts and reasoning, some of the people in these sorts of debates seem literally incapable of understanding that inference is directed. Just because you draw conclusion X from something someone else has said doesn't mean you can cite that person as authority for X. The inability to separate a statement from a further conclusion draw on the basis of it is a hallmark of fringe argumentation. It denies that the claimant's conclusory behavior is anything that needs examination.

How do you know they support you? In the Shroud case it's clear they didn't. Few if any of the people on Jabba's list could be said even to know who Jabba is, much less know of his activities here and express support for them. It's more a matter of, "These are people who I think would support me if they were given the chance." But that's still awfully presumptive.

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Honestly, I think it's just a bad inference. My ideas seem reasonable to me, therefore, the reasonable people of the world would agree with me. In addition, anyone who disagrees must not be reasonable.
Bad, but comforting. I think it's human nature to regard ourselves individually as more reasonable than we objectively are. The Bible even alludes to this, and Jabba would do well to take note that no matter how justified a person is in his own eyes, it doesn't fool God. But wrath of God aside, a person's standard of what's reasonable is liable to default to his own personal view. And as I wrote above, fringe claimants often seem to have a very skewed view of how reasonable their claims are when seen objectively. As you say: A person presumes himself to be reasonable, therefore his ideas to be reasonable because they came from a reasonable person. A person presumes that there are enough others like him out there that he doesn't have to defend his individuality too much.

A person presumes that those who disagree with him must be unreasonable because they disagree with what is "given" as reason, but I think this bears additional examination in Jabba's world. Jabba fogged it up by suggesting there were different standards of reasonableness pertaining to different modes of thought. What might seem unreasonable in an "analytical" world might be perfectly reasonable in a "holistic" world. That's slightly less annoying that being outright called irrational, but it still smells like that same form of elitism. Plus, as I mentioned several times before, you don't get to claim to be able to prove something analytically but also reserve the right to invoke whatever mush-headed nonsense you want to fill the gaping holes.
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Old Yesterday, 03:17 PM   #2472
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
ITYM numerator.

Dave
Number of people who didn't believe Jabba vs those who did =

NotBelieve/Believe.

I meant denominator (on purpose even )
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Old Today, 01:51 AM   #2473
wea
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
I seem to remember a poll regarding Jabba's silent lurkers. Asking how many did not believe Jabba's argument vs. how many did.

The results if I remember correctly had a 0 in the denominator.
is its reciprocal immortal?
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Old Today, 10:04 AM   #2474
Argumemnon
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Did he really leave?
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Old Today, 10:17 AM   #2475
Agatha
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Did he really leave?
1. He'll be back
2. and if "now" isn't what we think it is...
2.1 ..then he'll have been back in the future last week
3. Anyway, his claim is that if you add the number of people
3.1 who have ever lived
3.2 to the people who have never lived
3.21 and subtract the people who have died (because they forgot to be immortal)
4. Then you get a very big number, which approaches zero infinity

5. So magic exists.
6. And he'll be back (again).
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Old Today, 10:34 AM   #2476
John Jones
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Quick! Lock the thread and turn off all the lights!
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